Topic: quality of entry level hk vs hi-end yamaha

[theshade]

Harman Kardon AVR 147 A/V Receiver Power Rating (watts per channel): 40, into 8 ohms Price $449

Actual measurements:
All five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 66.7 watts
1 percent distortion at 78.3 watts

Yamaha RX-V2700 A/V Receiver  Power Rating (watts per channel): 140, into 8 ohms Price: $1,700

Actual measurements:
Five channels driven continuously into
8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 63.8 watts
1 percent distortion at 70.9 watts

no contest. 

[pekspert]

if you know that theres no contest then whats this thread for?

[barrister]

Specs have their uses, but they can't possibly tell us the whole story.

It has been discussed in web forums that for Yamaha, the "all channels driven" spec is unrealistic, since all channels are not driven simultaneously in real world situations.  But for Harman Kardon and NAD, the "all channels driven" spec is important as a marketing tool.  It sure works for a lot of enthusiasts.

At any rate, it's just a matter of company policy.  I can't blame the marketing guys of both HK and Yamaha, since marketing strategy is essential to a company's survival.

if you know that theres no contest then whats this thread for?

Flame-baiting and trolling?   

[hattori_hanzo]

for better results but a yamaha reciever for processing then combine it with raw power amp from harman international products like JBL....

[theshade]

Specs have their uses, but they can't possibly tell us the whole story.

It has been discussed in web forums that for Yamaha, the "all channels driven" spec is unrealistic, since all channels are not driven simultaneously in real world situations.  But for Harman Kardon and NAD, the "all channels driven" spec is important as a marketing tool.  It sure works for a lot of enthusiasts.

At any rate, it's just a matter of company policy.  I can't blame the marketing guys of both HK and Yamaha, since marketing strategy is essential to a company's survival.



Flame-baiting and trolling?   

It is not flame-baiting or trolling.  I only found it kinda weird that a 1700 dollar receiver has lower power all channels driven compared to a 400 dollar receiver.

This is also not specs but actual measured data.  If actual measured data cannot tell us the story then what can? Listening?  But isn't measurement equipment more accurate than our ears.  Personally, I do not believe that I will hear a difference between the 2 or even any solidstate amp with flat response not driven into clipping when level matched to 0.1 decibels.  Even a krell and a mark levinson will sound similar to the harman and yamaha.  That isn't saying I wont buy a mark levinson if i have the money but it would be for different reasons like build quality, looks, reliability and not sound quality. 

I may be biased because I am a harman owner but it is only comforting to know that harman does not exaggerate its power rating.  Nakakalungkot lang kasi minsan sasabihin ng audio salesman 40 watts per channel lang yan, ito onkyo o yamaha 130 watts per channel.  Nakakatawa lalo na sa mga kaibigan mong di audiophile na sasabihin ang mahal mahal nyan sa akin 8000 watts. hehehe

[barrister]

It's good to know that you're not trolling.  But you should have clarified in your first post to avoid misunderstanding.

[theshade]

for better results but a yamaha reciever for processing then combine it with raw power amp from harman international products like JBL....

Me if I had the money I would get denon onkyo or nad with audyssey multEQXT. tapos yung speaker naka deqx like Kumbar Wirri (Big Red). ganda nitong speaker sobra flat response.  Sarap ngayon sa audio dahil sa dsp. sana magmura lang nga.

[pchin]

It's good to know that you're not trolling.  But you should have clarified in your first post to avoid misunderstanding.

True. OP should state clearly his comments/feedback based on the statistic given instead of just saying "no contest"

[MAtZTER]

Harman Kardon AVR 147 A/V Receiver Power Rating (watts per channel): 40, into 8 ohms Price $449

Actual measurements:
All five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 66.7 watts
1 percent distortion at 78.3 watts

Yamaha RX-V2700 A/V Receiver  Power Rating (watts per channel): 140, into 8 ohms Price: $1,700

Actual measurements:
Five channels driven continuously into
8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 63.8 watts
1 percent distortion at 70.9 watts

no contest. 

Where did you get the specs of the HK147? I used to own a HK 630 75w x 7 and the specs above seem to be so near the $1,000+ receiver of HK.

I am a firm believer of power (& power amps) but power isnt everything, you have to consider processing too. I once auditioned a 2 series HK and a 6 series HK via blind test...

no contest 

[docsialu]

Harman Kardon AVR 147 A/V Receiver Power Rating (watts per channel): 40, into 8 ohms Price $449

Actual measurements:
All five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 66.7 watts
1 percent distortion at 78.3 watts

Yamaha RX-V2700 A/V Receiver  Power Rating (watts per channel): 140, into 8 ohms Price: $1,700

Actual measurements:
Five channels driven continuously into
8-ohm loads:
0.1 percent distortion at 63.8 watts
1 percent distortion at 70.9 watts

no contest. 

sorry ha, but i really dont know what these specs mean? and why is it no contest?

[ProtegeManiac]

Where did you get the specs of the HK147? I used to own a HK 630 75w x 7 and the specs above seem to be so near the $1,000+ receiver of HK.

I suppose it has higher output than that, too, given the 147 was underrated by 20 watts.

[barrister]

Where did you get the specs of the HK147?

Probably from HT Labs of hometheatermag.com:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/1107rack/index1.html
http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/1107rack/index5.html


It is true that HK is a high-power amp, thanks to its high-current design.  But the disadvantage is that HK becomes prone to overheating, a known issue that causes annoying auto shut-offs.



========================================================

I may be biased because I am a harman owner but it is only comforting to know that harman does not exaggerate its power rating.  Nakakalungkot lang kasi minsan sasabihin ng audio salesman 40 watts per channel lang yan, ito onkyo o yamaha 130 watts per channel.  Nakakatawa lalo na sa mga kaibigan mong di audiophile na sasabihin ang mahal mahal nyan sa akin 8000 watts. hehehe

It depends on the consumer.  Some may take comfort in the fact that HK does not exaggerate its power rating.  But some may find it discomforting that HK deliberately understates its power rating.

Some manufacturers overstate power ratings to improve sales.  Yet other manufacturers also understate power ratings for the same purpose of improving sales.  Some enthusiasts do not like the term "understated" power rating, and prefer to call it a "conservative" power rating  .



=========================================================



This discusson is not new.  I've come across other topics in this forum concerning the reverse psychology of understating power specs.

Here are some old posts: 

In my opinion, conservative power (watts) rating is also a marketing strategy "in reverse".
I remember when I was still in car audio in the mid 90's, we consider amplifier brands with conservative wattage ratings but wth actual higher output to be the one to buy. Such as rockford, orion, ppi, have made huge followings around the world with this marketing "hype". In the home arena, names such as NAD, HK and ADCOM comes to mind and they stress this in their ads.
I think it really depends on the experience and knowledgeability of the buyer to choose an over rated or under rated amp/receiver. Unfortunately, the over hype products usually gets the first attention but eventually the "real" ( read: with balls!) amp/receiver gets the loyal cult followings. 

Just my thought ...

http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=8576.0
http://pinoydvd.com/board/index.php?topic=59840.msg708424#msg708424

[aHobbit]

... I only found it kinda weird that a 1700 dollar receiver has lower power all channels driven compared to a 400 dollar receiver...

Amp for amp, you are better off with the 5ch amp of matzter - 100W/ch - at 25k pesoses - tax included! 

...Personally, I do not believe that I will hear a difference between the 2 or even any solidstate amp with flat response not driven into clipping when level matched to 0.1 decibels.  Even a krell and a mark levinson will sound similar to the harman and yamaha.  ...

True, but you will hear pre-amp/processor differences!

[theshade]

Amp for amp, you are better off with the 5ch amp of matzter - 100W/ch - at 25k pesoses - tax included! 


True, but you will hear pre-amp/processor differences!

I have not heard a lot of preamps or processors.  But I have spent a lot of time researching the audible differences of audio products. (the beauty of internet) What i have found out basically boils down to this. 

1. quality of recordings greatly vary (buy better recordings)
2. the speakers and the room itself present the most audible difference in audio components
3. amp and preamp - differences can be measured  but cannot be heard in double blind listening tests (this is excluding dsp's and flea powered tube amps that introduce a lot of "euphonic" Distortion thus altering the sound) 
4. fancy cables are a waste of money (i use 12 gauge extension cord)
5. dvd players, hi end cd players may measure differently but sound alike
6. equalisation is not evil when used properly (I use a behringer feedback destroyer to tame peaks in my sub's frequency response)
7. the future is in dsp!!! ( how i wish i had money to buy deqx or even just an audysseymultxt receiver)

off topic: in searching for the most accurate speaker na kaya ko maafford napakaganda ng measurements ng usher be-718 sa soundstage.com. ang ganda pati itsura. ganda din ng tunog sa hifi show. pero im wondering ano yung dif ng be-718 for american market and world market.  pareho kaya measurements nila?

[ATJr.]

no contest.  Grin

both amps have the same rating.....the difference is only in price....

and i do not know how this could be a flame bait.....just choose the one you like....

[ATJr.]

It has been discussed in web forums that for Yamaha, the "all channels driven" spec is unrealistic, since all channels are not driven simultaneously in real world situations.

agreed, but how else can you test the amps?

[MAtZTER]

I have not heard a lot of preamps or processors.  But I have spent a lot of time researching the audible differences of audio products. (the beauty of internet)

With all due respect sir, you are missing a lot. 

I also went through all those research when I was new to this hobby, but nothing beats experiencing sex than just reading about it. 

Beware, sex is addictive. 

[5Speed]

With all due respect sir, you are missing a lot. 

I also went through all those research when I was new to this hobby, but nothing beats experiencing sex than just reading about it. 

Beware, sex is addictive. 

herherherher......good analogy, couldnt agree more.....