Topic: Behringer A500

[aHobbit]

... there is NO difference in sound between the A500 and the rotels.

I would still buy the rotel ... why?  because I like the look ... because of the 12v trigger ... maybe because of reliability


...  there is no magic component in audio except speakers that will make your audio sound better.

oh since may nasagasaan na rin lang:
I don't believe in synergy between components EXCEPT between speaker to amp (if the amp can supply the power requirement of the speakers ... that's that).  I don't believe in expensive cables.  both speaker wires and power cables.
I don't believe in power conditioners, but I believe in AVR's kasi madalas mag fluctuate electricity dito sa pinas.
receivers do not have bright, warm, syruppy smooth sound, chocolatey, muddy, whatever.  the speakers and YOUR room does.

for people with budgets, please don't waste your money switching components and SIDEGRADING ika nga kasi walang synergy-synergy and bright kasi or warm kasi.

...

my post on the other thread earlier ...

I just cant remember where I post it ... will modify this later ... much of the issues (much distortions) in sound reproduction is not in the electronics (which is almost perfect in itself) ... (1) the source materials (and player e.g. cassette tapes) introduce the first massive distortion (2) the speakers introduce the second massive distortion (3) the listening area will wreak havoc the total sound  

However, the above, in my thoughts, can fault the high end amp since the controlled (common) factors (speaker and cable) have been agreed prior to test ... so it showed the high end failed in the showing, though not  really a matter of day & night ... with 14 participants not able to identify the differences, to me it looks that both set-up sounds the same which strengthen the thread here "DO POWER AMP SOUND THE SAME?"

...

Though there are actual mating of 2 decent amp/pre-amp that will suck because of mis-matching (call it lack of synergy/complementation whatever) - not always any decent pre will work properly with any decent amp, for one might be designed in an unusual way (sensitivities/ capacitance, etc), and here, ears are an easy tool to spot this anomaly.

Further, you are correct in saying there is almost no sense in tagging amp (or electronic system) as warm or bright etc etc ... it is more of the speakers that dictates this malady ... however, with distortions as accepted form of signal processing nowadays, I can only include pre-amp and DSP as the malady inserted between these almost-perfect electronic equipment that also drives the differences aka warmness or brightness - of course, if just for the amp, this does not apply!

but as I mentioned above, electronics per se has almost no issue in sound reproduction - one can have more substantial improvement in sound by looking at their source materials/players, speakers, and listening area than wasting time&money trying to find miniscule-to-nil improvements in expensive hyped accessories.

[mike c]

exactly.  speakers first.  appropriate amp second.  room treatments third.

I'm not sure about source yet.  I only have one dedicated CD player.  I have yet to compare it with a universal player.

one day after I run out of HT sutff to buy, I'll be buying good cables.  but mostly because cool tignan.  (but defintely not expensive)

[aHobbit]

...
I'm not sure about source yet.  I only have one dedicated CD player.  I have yet to compare it with a universal player.
...

am thinking the way of tape and TT ... with VHS as stereo player and typical decent CD/DVD players, have no issues with them ... MP3 is a different story much like TT/cassette ... have not heard of MP3PRO how true their claims 

[qguy]

hahaha.. akala ko ba walang warm kasi and walang bright kasi 

if a Tube amp and SS amp sounds different.. is it not possible that there is a difference between different SS amps ?

I think i know where your judgement is coming from, saying that there is no difference between amps could have been the result of

1. You are so lucky that you can get your hands on similar and good sounding amplifiers
2. Limited experience from the vast selection of amplifiers out there

bili /hiram ka ng entry level na HT AVR  and compare with a Rotel na high end.. I bet you would change your mind.. if not then your right, you can't hear the difference..... My dad is 77 he can't hear the difference between two different amps, everytime we have dance party he would say mahina ang  vocals and kalansing...

you are comparing apples and oranges really.

I have no experience with tubes.  all my conclusions were derived from SS amps.

[mike c]

hahaha.. akala ko ba walang warm kasi and walang bright kasi 

if a Tube amp and SS amp sounds different.. is it not possible that there is a difference between different SS amps ?

I think i know where your judgement is coming from, saying that there is no difference between amps could have been the result of

1. You are so lucky that you can get your hands on similar and good sounding amplifiers
2. Limited experience from the vast selection of amplifiers out there

bili /hiram ka ng entry level na HT AVR  and compare with a Rotel na high end.. I bet you would change your mind.. if not then your right, you can't hear the difference..... My dad is 77 he can't hear the difference between two different amps, everytime we have dance party he would say mahina ang  vocals and kalansing...

possible difference between SS amps?  maybe.  audible difference?  not for me.

you are drawing the wrong analogies from my conclusions ... do I also say that since there are no bright and warm SS amps, there should be no bright and warm speakers as well?  let me repeat, there are no audible differences between all of my SS electronics GRANTED the amp can power the speaker.

look, I'm sorry, obviously you are one of the people na-sagasaan ko.  and I mentioned as well that I am not trying to convince you.  but please, try comparing SS to SS first.  nowhere in my post did I mention there is no difference between TUBE and SS.

I have a yamaha 640, Harman Kardon 335, Harman Kardon 3480, Denon 2307, rotel rmb 1066, rotel rmb 1077, behringer a500
using an 8ohm bookshelf speaker, there is no difference between all of the above.
please do a search my posts for my speaker comparisons ... there are speakers that need more power, that is where dedicated amps come in, but again, all of the dedicated amps above are no different from each other.  I do not expect an all in one receiver that costs 25k and below to beat a dedicated external amp in power.

[mike c]

all I want to share with the budget peoples of pinoydvd (I started with a budget - hence my JBL HTIB and yammy 640)
is that, NOT EVERYONE can hear the difference between say the rotel RMB1066 and rotel RMB1077 ... and yet, if you go to htguide.com ... the 1077 is the greatest thing since sliced bread in terms of SQ.  those threads that portray the 1077 as the super rotel amp is one of the reasons I bought the 1077.  when plugged in, I asked myself ... ummm, ba't nung dinedescribe nila yung difference SUPER LAKI as in NIGHT and DAY, pero wala naman.  diba sayang pera?

I bought the a500, so that I can compare them myself ... before I pass judgment na pareho lang nga sound.
My conclusions come from personal experience and not a quote of other people's opinion.  honestly, I wanted the a500 to sound bad to justify buying more expensive amps.

so back on topic:
pros:
the A500 sounds great, no complaints.
it can power 4 ohm speakers no problem.
it is flexible in terms that you can bridge it yourself (unlike the RB1070).
astig din yung led lights up front.
heat sinks niya nasa side, so puwedeng patong patong

cons:
walang 12v trigger or auto sense.  (I have found a way around this by using a 12v DC to AC relay and made my own trigger, but I cannot share it with people kasi baka masunog bahay niyo - at ako'y masisi - wala akong pambayad ng bahay ninyo)
medyo UGLY looking siya - kasama na dito yung plastic front, rack mount ears ...

[mike c]

As for SIDEGRADING, yes you can improve the sound of your gear once you get that synergy/matching or whatever you call it to work for you...

oh and by the way, please share with us your A/B comparison of two same level receivers that sound different.
Yamaha sounds bright, Harman sound warm?  did you A/B with the same speakers and in the same room?  how long was the switching? did you compare using blind A/B testing?

I did, with Yamaha and Harman ... and I still have ALL of my receivers.  I do not sell ANY of my audio equipment.  I asked my "audiophile" friend and some ordinary people to "hear" for me.  (I was doing the switching - kasi sabi mo I can't hear the difference)

my "audiophile" friend was going to buy some 200k esoteric amp, now he's not buying something that expensive anymore.

[ATJr.]

I don't believe in synergy between components EXCEPT between speaker to amp (if the amp can supply the power requirement of the speakers ... that's that).  I don't believe in expensive cables.  both speaker wires and power cables.
I don't believe in power conditioners, but I believe in AVR's kasi madalas mag fluctuate electricity dito sa pinas.
receivers do not have bright, warm, syruppy smooth sound, chocolatey, muddy, whatever.  the speakers and YOUR room does.

for people with budgets, please don't waste your money switching components and SIDEGRADING ika nga kasi walang synergy-synergy and bright kasi or warm kasi.

why don't I believe stuff like that?  because I don't hear it.  audiophiles can label me as having bronze ears, they are not the people I'm trying to help anyway.

you hit nail on the head, this is a very sensible post, and newbies can very well take notice.....

comments like warm sounding, dark sounding, bright sounding when applied to amps are really just opinions .........

[alexg]

I don't believe in synergy between components EXCEPT between speaker to amp (if the amp can supply the power requirement of the speakers ... that's that).  I don't believe in expensive cables.  both speaker wires and power cables.
I don't believe in power conditioners, but I believe in AVR's kasi madalas mag fluctuate electricity dito sa pinas.
receivers do not have bright, warm, syruppy smooth sound, chocolatey, muddy, whatever.  the speakers and YOUR room does.

Right on! on the wire issue.

For SS amp sounding the same, my experience tells me that there is a slight difference.

I am glad you are posting this here, in some other places, you will be skinned alive if you post something like this. 

[mike c]

shhh.  baka magising mga super-audiophiles, mag bihis sila ng white robes at sunugin ako sa krus.

[aHobbit]

hahaha.. akala ko ba walang warm kasi and walang bright kasi 

if a Tube amp and SS amp sounds different.. is it not possible that there is a difference between different SS amps ?

he he he ... you look lost in the maze of audio terminologies ... or you are just being simplistic in using terms for general purpose ... are you sure you are talking about amp, or are you talking about amps with DSP, or are you talking with amps with DSP, and distortion-seasoned pre-amps?

IF you are just talking about amp like the behringer A500, it will not sound different with Rotel ... or maybe you are refering how loud rotel will sound in the same volume reading you can see from behringer, that is not the sound comparison but loudness ... or probably you are refering how an AVR amp will sound compared with Rotel in overload condition, that is not the sound you are checking but their limits ...

Perhaps we should lift another test inspite of the many tests conducted with people, who like you, insist that tube and SS amp sound different ... all amps if adjusted totally to approximate each other loudness and will be operated within their operating limits, sounds the same! Read DO POWER AMPS SOUNDS THE SAME thread.

My reading with your post is that you are trying compare the DSP implementation of AVR against Rotel DSP, comparing the distortion other AVR did with Rotel's brand of distortion - but that is not the amp sound, it is how their distortion sound ... you still think that AVR constructed today is the same amp being referred to before ... not at all!

Or probably you have not heard of the test where a cheaper SS pioneer amp left a high end tube amp in the dust ... or the one tested by carver (sya ba yun) that made the lofty vendor of the high end scratching their head? ...

But if your point is to compare the AVR as is, with all their DSP and pre-amp distortion with Rotel's brand of DSP and pre-amp distortion, then, in its simplicity, all AVR today sound different - but then again they are not the amp you are talking about!

...
bili /hiram ka ng entry level na HT AVR  and compare with a Rotel na high end.. I bet you would change your mind.. if not then your right, you can't hear the difference..... My dad is 77 he can't hear the difference between two different amps, everytime we have dance party he would say mahina ang  vocals and kalansing...

Pretty waste of time if you do not know what you are comparing, and if you are trying to identify the sound of the amplifier this way ...

[rascal101]

The goal of amplifiers is to reproduce an input signal with gain (best to design it with very little distortion). So most likely, if they have same specifications they would sound the same whether they are SS or tube.

That being said, the reason I don't like tubes is that they are made of glass (and glass is fragile). Further power density is significantly less compared with SS.

[aHobbit]

The goal of amplifiers is to reproduce an input signal with gain (best to design it with very little distortion). So most likely, if they have same specifications they would sound the same whether they are SS or tube.
...

    

hi-fidelity amp, regardless if qualified high end or not, pertains to an amp that can reproduce an amplified replica (w/ very low  distortion) of an input signal ... in the olden days of tube, and even in the 70s, this distortion are accepted to be below 1% typically ... but SS during those days were even down less than .1% ... technically so small to be heard of ... some of those that don't believe were also challenged to hear distortions this low ... of course, they only believe that, but they cant identify those distortion during actual listening ... in the same way that matrix hifi has to challenge those who believe SS and tube sound different ... truth is that they only believe that but cant identify the difference in actual listening!

and amp goal is that ... just to make exact replica of whatever is inputted to the amp ... period!

With so many subjective listening preferences among audiophiles, pre-amps typically are made to somehow provide the signal to feed the amps ... from the orignal TT RIAA-based specs pre-amp, differs from maker to maker depending on which sound you like ... now you have different CD & DVD and depending on what sound inclination you have, you can choose what implementation you want ... some maker design built-in equalization in pre-amp to suite different taste who wants some freq exagerrated a little bit ... now you have AVR with those different DSP, from cheap no-nonsense to expensively coloured sound processing ... so all those distorted/processed signal will be fed to the amp ...

And this amp, being almost so perfect copier of signal, reproduce it in amplified form ... amp is not the right place to alter the signal to your ear's liking! ... all amps are compromised, you just have to know which was/were compromised so you can operate correctly and not to overdrive them where they sound nasty! ... Though amps sounds the same within their operating limits, they sound different when they are driven to nastiness (operated beyond its limits)

[rascal101]

Dami kasi BI sa audio eh! Medyo dini-distort nila reality.

Hirap kapag nakasakay ka na kasi ikaw na ang nag b BI. hehehe.

[bejiboys]

Hehe, para hindi na mag-digress masyado from the thread title - I just bought two of these without auditioning using my own source/cd/speakers (one is with me, the other still for delivery).  Couldn't really afford to buy Rotels.  Worse case, this would serve as amps for my "dream" home studio.

Used it to power my 603S2's (I suppose in real world measurements, about 120W RMS/channel at 8ohms).  Subjective thoughts: for not-so dynamic sound, better than my RVX800 AVR output in terms of clarity, indistinguishable difference against my old AV490 integrated amp (rated at 80W/ch).  Pero using other sampler CD's with different dynamics, evident na hindi nag-ki-clip yung lower bass registers at mas-pronounced yung tweets sa highs compared to the two other amps.  Probably monitoring the meters prevent me from driving the amp to clipping - plus since it has more power than my previous, the headroom was the difference.  No significant difference regarding the loudness (SPL).

Later on tried it with my Diamond 9.2's.  Same observation as above.  Subjectively, mas preferred ko pa rin yung 603's kahit floorstander sya compared to the 9.2.

Will try to bridge the amps to drive 1 speaker/bridged amp when the other one arrives.  Another experiment lined up for test is to bi-amp the center speaker (9.cm) using the two channels of one amp.  Para kasing bitin yung clarity nung centers ko for dialogue and am hoping it is just a case of the amp being underpowered to drive the centers. If things go well, I might as well wait again for another Behringer sale and get another one for the rears.

I can now dedicate my AV490 to drive my 4 aura bass shakers.

All my assessments and description are subjective based on my senses only (no measuring equipments used).

Thanks to this forum/thread for all the inputs.

[romymartinez]

This thread is getting really interesting.

I hope we can get more listening impressions from A500 users.

[bumblebee]

12K ba talaga? Where?

Audio Critic review

[bejiboys]

There was a sale up to the end of April, cash price at Php 12,796. 

[romymartinez]

There was a sale up to the end of April, cash price at Php 12,796. 

Where?

[bejiboys]

got mine at electronics depot at festival mall, but the seller mentioned that it was for all behringer outlets. 

[qguy]

At one time,  I had a Marantz 1040, a 20 WPC integrated,  a Pioneer SA-9950, a 90 wpc integrated and a Kenwood 105 wpc Pre-power combo, I do not do a blind listening test, but comparing these amps over a couple of years  using the same speakers and room, gave these conclusions.

The Pioneer was neutral in a sense that I did not find it warm nor bright, to me it was a boring amp, the Marantz was warm, while the Kenwood was a bit bright. The Marantz got the most  play time over the other amplifiers. The same findings for the Kenwood and the Marantz were also observed by another member of this forum who was interested in the Kenwood Pre-power combo and later asked if I was selling the Marantz  . The speakers used were KEF reference series 105.2, a large three way loudspeakers which requires a lot of juice as its a bit  on the low side on the sensitivity scale (around 85 or 86) which  given the arguments that power requirements is the main factor, then it should favor the pre-pwoer combo with the most juice,  right ?

Do all amps sound the same ?  ideally in a perfect world... YES... then again the world is not perfect, some even believe that changing capacitors in the same amplifier will make it perform better...

oh and by the way, please share with us your A/B comparison of two same level receivers that sound different.
Yamaha sounds bright, Harman sound warm?  did you A/B with the same speakers and in the same room?  how long was the switching? did you compare using blind A/B testing?

I did, with Yamaha and Harman ... and I still have ALL of my receivers.  I do not sell ANY of my audio equipment.  I asked my "audiophile" friend and some ordinary people to "hear" for me.  (I was doing the switching - kasi sabi mo I can't hear the difference)

my "audiophile" friend was going to buy some 200k esoteric amp, now he's not buying something that expensive anymore.

[gutchy]

Do all amps sound the same ?  ideally in a perfect world... YES... then again the world is not perfect, some even believe that changing capacitors in the same amplifier will make it perform better...

Yes.. I agree with you. Ideally All SS amps should sound the same but not in the real world. There are lots of factors that can affect the sound like for example the PCB layout, the type and brand of components used,Design topology (using op-amps,all discreet components,etc), Mono block designs and so on.. For these can all affect the sound of an amplifier..

If all SS amp sound the same.. then I think.. bibili na lang ako ng Sakura to drive those expensive speakers..    just my opinion..

[bhongskie]

there is NO difference in sound between the A500 and the rotels.

i have a rotel but i dont feel like "nasagasaan".  In fact i am happy that there are more affordable brands out there that sound as good as name brands.  More choices for everyone. 

let's say the a500 is 14k ... the rotel rb1070 is 30+k ...
I would still buy the rotel ... why?  because I like the look ... because of the 12v trigger ... maybe because of reliability
but I can afford it, people who are on a budget will do well with the a500 - same sound - half the price.

exactly the reason i bought my rotel.  i bought it for its looks, some added features and track record and not because it's better sounding than other amps i fancied before. not that looks and other features matter the most, personally i love the sound it reproduces.

If i have the money right now i will buy an a500 for another system. 

just my thoughts.

[markmlists]

If I were to buy a brand new amp THIS would be it.


Downside (Personal opinions)-
Overpriced. even at its affordable local cost it is still overpriced. Dealer's fault.
Looks. I'm not sure if it is butt-ugly or if its pig-ugly.

BUT, i'd still buy it if im in the market for a bnew amp due to cost and performance.

[ATJr.]

BUT, i'd still buy it if im in the market for a bnew amp due to cost and performance.

that's the way to go. why spend 20K for a 5 watt amp, when that amount of money can buy you a 100watter or more amp?...

[av_phile1]

Downside (Personal opinions)-
I'm not sure if it is butt-ugly or if its pig-ugly.

Yes, ugly.  Some of the ugliest gears I've seen are in the professional studio grade department.  The Behringer brand is more a studio gear than a home gear.  And studio grade gears have none of the fancy stuff.   

[chocovim]

i agree the a500 is ugly... but i'd buy it too for that price.. i'll just have to cover it up when people come over to visit 

[bumblebee]

I saw the Alesis. Hindi naman ganun kapangit.

[sanmig_ph]

is it true that there is a bad hums & distortion on this amp?

[docsialu]

what happens if i use this amp rated at 160watts at 8 ohms, with a 50-100 watts rms speaker with 87 db sensitivity and 8 ohms impedance? will it damage the speaker?

tnx, just curious