Topic: Which will give result Bi-Amp or Receiver+Power Amp

[Assassin101]

Mga Sir, i'm planning to upgraded my setup . Bi-amp my front with Yammy 650 and HK 135 or Yammy 650 plus power amp . I'm really confused , if i'll just upgrade to pre-owned fronts and center or add a new power amp or bi-amp my system. Which would yield the best result? Hope you guys can give me an advise. My current setup:

Yamaha RX-V650
Wharfedale 8.4 and Dantax Opus 5

[synchro_01]

Mga Sir, i'm planning to upgraded my setup . Bi-amp my front with Yammy 650 and HK 135 or Yammy 650 plus power amp . I'm really confused , if i'll just upgrade to pre-owned fronts and center or add a new power amp or bi-amp my system. Which would yield the best result? Hope you guys can give me an advise. My current setup:

Yamaha RX-V650
Wharfedale 8.4 and Dantax Opus 5

upgrade your speakers. you will get a lot more improvement as compared to increasing available power.

[alvinthx2]

The best and guaranteed way of improving your listening experience are listed below:

In chronological order of importance
-Acoustic treatment and speaker positioning and calibration
-Speaker Quality
-Preamp and Amp ( Receiver)
-Source component
-Cables and interconnects

[synchro_01]

The best and guaranteed way of improving your listening experience are listed below:

In chronological order of importance
-Acoustic treatment and speaker positioning and calibration
-Speaker Quality
-Preamp and Amp ( Receiver)
-Source component
-Cables and interconnects

take it from the expert hehe 

[classicman]

The best and guaranteed way of improving your listening experience are listed below:

In chronological order of importance
-Acoustic treatment and speaker positioning and calibration
-Speaker Quality
-Preamp and Amp ( Receiver)
-Source component
-Cables and interconnects

i definitely agree w/ the first 2 items as well as the last, but i've read somewhere that the 3rd most important factor in the audio chain is the source component then followed by the pre-amp/processor component as the 4th & then the power amp. as the fifth......so, parang ganito ang order of importance:

1. Acoustic treatment and speaker positioning and calibration
2. Speaker Quality
3. Source component
4. Pre-amp/Processor
5. Power Amp. (or in case of an integrated amp. or receiver, combo of nos. 4 & 5)
6. Cables and interconnects

alin po ba talaga ang tama .......TIA

[MAtZTER]

The best and guaranteed way of improving your listening experience are listed below:

In chronological order of importance
-Acoustic treatment and speaker positioning and calibration
-Speaker Quality
-Preamp and Amp ( Receiver)
-Source component
-Cables and interconnects

I agree with this sequence. The source component being of higher priority than the amps may be referring to audio, not HT. Audio source components use their own decoders/DACS as compared to HT, where the pre-amp/reciever usually does the decoding through digital connection.

Mga Sir, i'm planning to upgraded my setup . Bi-amp my front with Yammy 650 and HK 135 or Yammy 650 plus power amp . I'm really confused , if i'll just upgrade to pre-owned fronts and center or add a new power amp or bi-amp my system. Which would yield the best result? Hope you guys can give me an advise.

Let me get this straight, you plan to bi-amp w/ 2 receivers 

[MAtZTER]

Assassin 101:

Read reply 57 of this thread. Read about the sound difference of the 8.3.

Take it from someone who experienced the difference himself. He came from a Yamaha 440 & wharfe 8.3.\




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[Assassin101]

Sir Matz, yes po plan ko sana i bi-amp na lang un Dantax ko or un 8.4. And one problem is the space. I don't have the luxury to separate my floorstanders to much. almost 1 meter lang apart pwede sa pag hiwalayin.

[MAtZTER]

Sir Matz, yes po plan ko sana i bi-amp na lang un Dantax ko or un 8.4. And one problem is the space. I don't have the luxury to separate my floorstanders to much. almost 1 meter lang apart pwede sa pag hiwalayin.

Bi-amping, as the name implies, uses 2 power amps, one for the HF and one for the LF of your bi-wireable speakers. Though this is just passive bi-amping.  

You can't Bi-receiver (no such word, LOL) a speaker using 2 receivers  .

[Assassin101]

Bi-amping, as the name implies, uses 2 power amps, one for the HF and one for the LF of your bi-wireable speakers. Though this is just passive bi-amping.  

You can't Bi-receiver (no such word, LOL) a speaker using 2 receivers  .

Sir Matz,

I just tried using my 8.4 as a surround and wow. It really rocked my word. Details are superb. the only problem now is moving my 50gal aquarium to balance the placement of my surround and elivate the 8.4 so as to clear the height of the sectional sofa. nag sisi tuloy ako bakit pa ako nag sectional sofa at nag aquarium. Ang hirap i usod ng aquarium, i tried moving it but it did not even moved an inch or even a centimeter.. . Pwede kaya separate receiver, yamaha will power the fronts and the other receiver will power the center and surround? . hehehehe

[classicman]

i definitely agree w/ the first 2 items as well as the last, but i've read somewhere that the 3rd most important factor in the audio chain is the source component then followed by the pre-amp/processor component as the 4th & then the power amp. as the fifth......so, parang ganito ang order of importance:

1. Acoustic treatment and speaker positioning and calibration
2. Speaker Quality
3. Source component
4. Pre-amp/Processor
5. Power Amp. (or in case of an integrated amp. or receiver, combo of nos. 4 & 5)
6. Cables and interconnects

alin po ba talaga ang tama .......TIA

 

[classicman]

Mga Sir, i'm planning to upgraded my setup . Bi-amp my front with Yammy 650 and HK 135 or Yammy 650 plus power amp . I'm really confused , if i'll just upgrade to pre-owned fronts and center or add a new power amp or bi-amp my system. Which would yield the best result? Hope you guys can give me an advise. My current setup:

Yamaha RX-V650
Wharfedale 8.4 and Dantax Opus 5

A/V receivers (Yammy 650 & HK 135) are still basically amplifiers, although they also have built-in pre-amp/surround processor & tuner sections in their chassis, & since their main function is still to amplify it necessarily follows that they can be "bi-amped" .......am not saying though that it is the better way to get "the best result" (as you put it) coz am not a believer in that method , sundin mo nalang yung audio chain posted by sir alvintx2 or if budget permits you may add an external power amp.



muy dos sentimos

[av_phile1]

Mga Sir, i'm planning to upgraded my setup . Bi-amp my front with Yammy 650 and HK 135 or Yammy 650 plus power amp . I'm really confused , if i'll just upgrade to pre-owned fronts and center or add a new power amp or bi-amp my system. Which would yield the best result? Hope you guys can give me an advise. My current setup:

Yamaha RX-V650
Wharfedale 8.4 and Dantax Opus 5

While technically possible, it's not adviseable in general.  Your two receivers, unless they're identical, would have different gains and since you'd be using 2 different pre/pro sections, there could be some lags between the highs and lows and differences in DSP/DAC processing qualities.  You'd also be balancing two volume controls everytime you change one.

I think some receivers with 7th and 8th channels that can be used in another room can bi-amp your fronts.  But that's using just one receiver.  Just read the manual.

If you have the budget for an HK receiver, I would suggest you look for separate stereo power amps provided your receiver has Pre-Outs.  Compared to bi-amping with two receivers, I think using a separate power amps with better specs than your Yammy's power amp section can yield more sonic improvement.  Ofcourse there are other ways that can yield audible sonic improvements.  Alvinthx ennumerated them.  And I tend to agree with these except the last, cables and interconnects. 

[Assassin101]

ipon na lang muna ako and invest wth a good speakers like the mission m5s like what sir matz has. wish ko lang . sana next year meron pa ako makuha. and for the acoustic treatment medyo malabo kasi we are just renting our place. any simple treatment that i can utilized?

[MAtZTER]

bi-amping with 2 receivers is something like: you & your wife, going to Baguio together at the same time in 2 small cars, one carries your children, one carries your stuff. Its better to just get a van to do the whole thing efficiently. 

There are acoustic treatments for sale at many HT/ audio shops at reasonable prices. You dont usually need to tear up walls to use these. Try asking Hyperaudio or SGT

[Assassin101]

bi-amping with 2 receivers is something like: you & your wife, going to Baguio together at the same time in 2 small cars, one carries your children, one carries your stuff. Its better to just get a van to do the whole thing efficiently. 

There are acoustic treatments for sale at many HT/ audio shops at reasonable prices. You dont usually need to tear up walls to use these. Try asking Hyperaudio or SGT

thanks sir, san po ba location ng Hyperaudio at SGT? meron po ba kyo contact numbers?

[MAtZTER]

Hyperaudio 8325710

SGT Home Theater 8138443

The best and guaranteed way of improving your listening experience are listed below:

In chronological order of importance
-Acoustic treatment and speaker positioning and calibration
-Speaker Quality
-Preamp and Amp ( Receiver)
-Source component
-Cables and interconnects

Let me rephrase:

I agree with this sequence for HT. The source component being of higher priority than the amps may be referring to audio (so its correct in the audio sense), not HT. The reference might have come from a musical/ audio perspective.

Ergo, priority to source applies to analog AUDIO. But in Digital HT , it takes a backseat to the pre amp/ receiver. Both are different cases & I think both claims have merits in their own fields.  & 

[av_phile1]

Audio source components use their own decoders/DACS as compared to HT, where the pre-amp/reciever usually does the decoding through digital connection.

There are also CD players that make use of digital connection where preamp DAC is superior to the player's.  I personally prefer to remain in the digital domain all throughout until the last moment when the signal has to go to the power amp as analog.  Only one DAC process.  That minimizes signal covnersion losses when you use the DAC in the player and is resampled digitally when it enters the receiver's ADC/DSP processing.  Even SACD and DVD-A, which are processed in the player and outputs to 5.1 analog is said to benefit from digital connection via d-link or i-link to get bass management function in a suitable receiver like the Denon 3800 and 5800 line. 

[MAtZTER]

There are also CD players that make use of digital connection where preamp DAC is superior to the player's.  I personally prefer to remain in the digital domain all throughout until the last moment when the signal has to go to the power amp as analog.  Only one DAC process.  That minimizes signal covnersion losses when you use the DAC in the player and is resampled digitally when it enters the receiver's ADC/DSP processing.  Even SACD and DVD-A, which are processed in the player and outputs to 5.1 analog is said to benefit from digital connection via d-link or i-link to get bass management function in a suitable receiver like the Denon 3800 and 5800 line. 

Correct sir AV.  Specially for those really good/ hi end  (and expensive) pre/pro's w/ excellent top notch DACs, all you need is a transport to transfer the digital info. & the pre/pro does the magic.

In the same case, there are also  HT's still using analog to their receivers, specially for those who still use pro logic receivers, or DTS receivers using analog connection for dolby & DTS HD.

There are always exceptions to the rule (analog/digital HT or music). But what was stated above is a generalized view. 

I forgot to insert the word "usually" 

[Assassin101]

that's why i'm using a optical cable for my interconnection to maximize the digital features.

[synchro_01]

Correct sir AV.  Specially for those really good/ hi end  (and expensive) pre/pro's w/ excellent top notch DACs, all you need is a transport to transfer the digital info. & the pre/pro does the magic.

In the same case, there are also  HT's still using analog to their receivers, specially for those who still use pro logic receivers, or DTS receivers using analog connection for dolby & DTS HD.

There are always exceptions to the rule (analog/digital HT or music). But what was stated above is a generalized view. 

I forgot to insert the word "usually" 

With top notch pre-pros, the source components are also critical even though its use would be only to merely spin the disc and transmit the digital data as a transport. There are actually variations in the sound quality of every transport even though it will use the decoding engine/DAC of the pre-pro. This is more noticeable when you listen to it in Audio as compared to HT applications. Uber transparent pre-pro's are even more critical of their partnering equipment since they tend to squeeze out the last iota of sonic detail from the source...if the source is crap then it will also pump out crap.

[Assassin101]

disks are already digital. will it matter if you are just using a generic player to read the data from the disk and transported to the toss link. will there be sonic degradation if the data that is being transmitted is just zero's and one's? the only thing i can think of that may affect the quality of data on a pure digital setup is the speed rate of the dvd drive. but may not be noticeable. correct me if i'm wrong. newbie pa kasi.

[Assassin101]

ewan ko kung may relevance ang sinabi ko. hindi ko rin naintindihan eh . hehehe. hirap kasi mag post using pda. addict talaga. addict sa PDVD

[MAtZTER]

I also use my PDA phone to log in thru WiFi. But sometimes its too small. 

But handy (in checking pinoydvd  ) when you are in WiFi malls.

Somehow, what assassin101 mentioned may be true for the mid to entry level gears. All you need is the 1's & 0's to get to the hardware to do the work. Any transport would do.

But for the high end, uber gears synchro mentioned,  its different. I saw a cool looking Mark & Levinson "Reference CD Transport", and I thought to myself "OMG, this expensive thing is JUST a transport?" So you need a M&L DAC, M&L etc etc? Wow!

The answer lay in a Burmester catalog I got hold of a few days ago (maybe the saleman thought I could afford it ...NOT) :

"Burmester products guarantee the best musical performance, simulating a live experience...as long as same class components are used with it."

For gears worth millions like the Burmesters & whatever high end gears, so many other factors are considered like low jitter, noise etc etc eck eck (forgot em all) to get the max performance from these gears, even if its just a transport. And besides, if you have P2m amps & speakers, you wont be using generics as transports.

[av_phile1]

disks are already digital. will it matter if you are just using a generic player to read the data from the disk and transported to the toss link. will there be sonic degradation if the data that is being transmitted is just zero's and one's? the only thing i can think of that may affect the quality of data on a pure digital setup is the speed rate of the dvd drive. but may not be noticeable. correct me if i'm wrong. newbie pa kasi.

Quite true.  Once you reach a certain tolerance in the making of transport mechanisms, the transfer of 0s and 1s become straightforward.  This is actually another of those topics being ridiculed and heatedly discussed in other forums, apart from cables.  Some esoteric transport mechanisms actually just use pioneer or creative labs CD or DVD mechanisms.  These boutique brands hardly have the means to do R&D.  It wasn't surprising to learn that a $6000 Theta Voyager DVD player is just a re-housed re-badged pioneer DVD player lock stock and barrel.  Ofcourse the new housing looks so much better, heftier and heavier,  But I doubt if the yawning price gap between a $200 player and a $6000 one would be commensurate to any sonic improvements, if any.  And this is not uncomon in the world of super expensive boutigue brands we rarely hear about or see at AV shops.  I wouldn't outrightly discount that perhaps some sonic improvements exists with these boutique products, like clamping down hard on jitter to  further bring down noise floors in the analog domain.  But it is not as if the better commercial mass produced players can't do a good job at it.  They do.  Such improvements would be so subtle as to be audibly perceived but only in the most revealing and equally expensive systems.  No wonder then that such esoteric boutique players are better off thriving in equally esoteric systems. (So Matz is right, the players and your gears should belong in the same league.  , price league that is.  Binabagayan, as they say.)

But I have to admit pricing does a lot of marvels to the mind to  create what in psychology is called the Powers of SUggestion.  No product gets noticed if it's not that expensive.  And if it's that expensive, it must be great. Price and sound quality may be directly proportional but only up to a point.  Beyond which, psychology starts to work wonders.     And for the most part, what you are buying is often the prestige, the rarity and the bragging rights of having the most expensive and being one of a kind in the community,  little to do with sonics.  But ofcourse if you're a royalty or a typcoon and can afford them, why not.  But I don't think it's somethng to aim for, strive for, or save up for like you would with gears meant for peasants or ordinary mortals    

[Assassin101]

sir matz stupid question lang ano po ibig sabihin ng P2m? hehehe

[MAtZTER]

sir matz stupid question lang ano po ibig sabihin ng P2m? hehehe

Php 2,000,000.00

Burmester speakers were at P2.3m and the amps & other stuff there (5th floors Rustan's) were at the same prices. Sounds great but only tycoons can afford them. You wont buy them EVEN if you win the lottery, little else will be left for your house. 

Teka, it (speakers & amp) IS a house! or cost the same as a house.

[av_phile1]

You wont buy them EVEN if you win the lottery, little else will be left for your house. 

Ok lang yan if you won an 80M lotto jackpot.   

30M for a house&lot
6M for a new Mercedes
4M for the BMW X5
10M for home furnitures
10M for audio/HT system
20M in the bank to last you 5 years of expenses
 

How I wish. 

[Assassin101]

i now now the path i'm going to.. and that's the path of upgrading my fronts and center first. the path to mission speakers muhahahaha...