Topic: Best Audio/Video Receiver?

[bono vox]

If budget is not an issue I highly recommend the Arcam receivers, the best I've heard under $2000.The sound is very smooth, detailed and life like.Look for a used AVR 250 and you will not be dissapointed.I sold my Nad T753 and Dyns52 and got  my friend's setup consisted of Quad 12Ls and an Arcam AVR250.I don't miss my Nad/Dyns combo anymore.

gud day sir!
ia arcam receiver available locally? where can i audition?
thanks.

[aHobbit]

“Just decrease the supply voltage and you have a high current amp. Bababa nga lang yung power for 8-Ohm loads.”

I have to qualify this statement … changing the voltage (as in selecting from multi-tapped transformer as in audio applications) in a transformer will not in no wise increase your maximum current flow! … A transformer basically has 2 ratings : (1) the voltage and the (2) current capacity … for any given multitap transformer (that’s already made), current capacity will just be the same as it will just be the function of the wire used in the coil of the transformer (granting the appropriate core size was used) …

What the statement above is trying to explain is how transformer can be designed … thus for a given power (wattage), varying the voltage will vary the current … small current for bigger voltage or small voltage for bigger current , to maintain the same wattage , then off to wind the designed transformer … In ready-made multitap transformer (or transformer where they designed a multitap voltage), those current capacity will not change anymore!

[aHobbit]

Regarding HK AVR330: have my head dizzy up to crack the problem of AVR330, and I came out pinning down what they did!

In 1 channel: 8 ohms = 95Watts (3.45A)
In 1 channel: 4 ohms = 148 Watts (6.08A)
In 5 channels: 8 ohms = 66Watts x 5 = 330 Watts (total of 6.42A)
In 5 channels: 4 ohms at shut down = 25W x 5 = 125 Watts (total of 5.59A)

From the above, it seems to me HK AVR 330 just limited their line current to about 6 amperes (total, was able to crank a total of about 6.5 Ampere in 5 channels).

Had they test that in 2-channel stereo, they will just end up with about 84W per channel into 8 ohms (or 37 Watts per channel into 4 ohms)

Am scratching my head why in the first place they have to do that ... for one touting high current design ... but they are real-world rating ... strictly 8 ohms       

Mikey is correct, Technically, Yamaha, though they overstate their rating in their publication, is way better than HK in the amp department! (measurement wise by that lab)!

[av_phile1]

Just say power is conserved. That's basic OHm's law anyway.  For a lower the load, just reduce the voltage if you want the same current to flow.  In real world application, an amp that has that option for an impedance switch to maintain its advertised XX watts per channel for 4 and 8 ohms.  But that only happens when your power transformer isn't generously designed to double its current when the load is halved. 

[av_phile1]

Mikey is correct, Technically, Yamaha, though they overstate their rating in their publication, is way better than HK in the amp department! (measurement wise by that lab)!

That's because there is a world of difference between conservative power rating and high current ability.  You can have a conservative power rating for an amp with poor current handling at low impedance loads.  And you can always measure any amp with excellent low impedance current handling using a higher measurement reference say at 1% THD or at 1khz, or at only two channels driven in a multichannel config - all of which won't qualify as conservative power rating. 

[aHobbit]

…

Impedance Selector Switches

… It is highly recommend to keep the impedance switch set to 8 ohms regardless of your speakers impedance and make sure your receiver has plenty of ventilation.

In fact, this should be the norm if you want better signal handling out of your receivers …

The Response:(Referring to the particular Arcam model)


Hi, The statement you have found does not actually relate to the AVR300. I will explain why the AVR300 has a impedance switch.

The AVR300 has two seperate power rails and when the 4 Ohm switch is selected the lower rails are selected. This actually has exactly the opposite effect to what is describe for 4 Ohm speakers. The reason for this is because the maximum load on the output transistors has to be kept withinn a Safe Operating Area (SOA) and this is a function of both the voltage and the current. So the higher the voltage on the output devices the less current we can allow to flow though them. The reverse of this is also true if we reduce the voltage (i.e set the system to 4 Ohms) then we can allow more current to flow through the output devices.

The smaller voltage, higher current  or smaller current, higher voltage applies here! … in a nutshell, this only shows the handling characteristics of a given transistor device. This also showed (given the test conducted), that Yamaha’s choice of transistor devices are way better (wide SOA) than that of HK (as far as power handling characteristics are concerned) – good way to cut cost for a consumer product!

You can safely try your speakers on the 8R setting as the amplifer will still protect itself using the the SOA circuit however it will have to cut in earlier to limmit the voltage / current product.

The SOA protection will not trigger here. It will be more of a detection of DC mode when clipping occur (which is well within the SOA curve)

With HK AVR 330, the SOA trigger is not the one triggered (if you will closely analyze 25W into 5channel). 25W into 1 transistor pair for a 4 ohm load is well within the SOA of the transistor (from the test itself, the transistor device itself can handle 6.08A into 4 ohms with 1 channel driven!) ... it is more of the monitored total current that made it shut down! (err, can we request the lab tester to test it in stereo mode?    )

I would advise you to leave the system on 4R as it will run cooler and keeping things cool always increases the life of the product.

 

What do you expect … just do the run around for that kind of a design … if you do not follow, there might be other unwanted surprises waiting to happen!


I have a strong gut feeling      that the above replies from the manufacturer are edited by their marketing people!     

[aHobbit]

Just say power is conserved. That's basic OHm's law anyway.  For a lower the load, just reduce the voltage if you want the same current to flow.  In real world application, an amp that has that option for an impedance switch to maintain its advertised XX watts per channel for 4 and 8 ohms.  But that only happens when your power transformer isn't generously designed to double its current when the load is halved. 

That's because there is a world of difference between conservative power rating and high current ability.  You can have a conservative power rating for an amp with poor current handling at low impedance loads.  And you can always measure any amp with excellent low impedance current handling using a higher measurement reference say at 1% THD or at 1khz, or at only two channels driven in a multichannel config - all of which won't qualify as conservative power rating. 

Well, mikey, to me, lab measurement speaks more (is enough) truth than unfounded specs speculation and marketing babbling/gimmicks (no matter if it is the preseident of the manufacturer sign that technical release) ... if it can not handle well the 1Khz, can I trust it to handle other frequencies unless they can come up with the actual test measurements? ...


do I hear from this that though HK AVR 330 can do only 25W into 4 ohms at 1Khz, it will do more than 25 watts into 4 ohms in 20Hz to 20kHz?  ... hows that for a logic eh? ...


... my logic tells me it will only be 25 watts into 4 ohms from 20-20khz  (probably      ) ... or lower than that      (but methinks most probably less than 25 Watts      )!!! Unless you are telling me HK AVR 330 provides 66 Watts at 20 Hz, remained constant at 25W at 1KHz & 70W at 20KHz! (is there no shaking head emoticon here, I like that in the other forum!  )


What good is there for a good PSU (even if it scales up to 4x its rated load) if the amp design is a crap! Beats me. To me, an amplifier is not the PSU. The error of looking at those torroidals!   


Next test measurement please !!!

[av_phile1]

The fact remains that conservative power rating is different from high current abilities.  Those lab readings just confirm that fact. So the HK has lousy low impedance handling and the Yamaha lied about its true power ratings.  So what else is new?

[aHobbit]

...
The fact remains that conservative power rating is different from high current abilities.  Those lab readings just confirm that fact.
...

I did not see high current abilities being confirmed in the test measurement!  What I saw is the (very bad) current limits!   What fact is that again?

I also want that nodding emoticon!  But not to the above post!

...
So the HK has lousy low impedance handling
...

not yet for the nodding emoticon  ... unusual protection circuit issue

...
Yamaha lied about its true power ratings
...

RX-V659 EISA HT receiver Best Product of the year 2006 (europe); audioholics product of the year 2006 (US) 

[Lucky7]

Arcam's tuner sounds like a cd and you can bi amp your fronts speakers with the 6th and 7th channel
in a 5.1 setup.Arcam stuff are not cheap and now I know why and it's really worth the price. I have a Rotel RA 1062 int.amp for a home demo just for comparison. I still prefer the sounds of the Arcam in direct mode. Take note that the Rotel is an integrated and the Arcam is a receiver.I'm really happy with my new Arcam/Quad setup.

[Black Mamba]

Agree with the experts that there's no best a/v receiver and that it's difficult to compare due to varied tastes and price points.  Generally though (as many say), the ff. brands of a/v receivers "more often than not" perform better vs. other brands in most price points: 1) Denon 2) HK 3) Marantz 4) Onkyo 5) Yamaha (in no particular order).  I've tried Denon, Onkyo and Yamaha with my B&W 602 setup and in my opinion, Denon and Onkyo matches better compared to Yamaha.  Yamaha sounds great in cinema but falls a bit short on audio.  Denon and Onkyo in my opinion, provides a good balance and very natural sounding (transparent to the source).  I used to have both receivers at one time (Denon and Yamaha, then Denon and Onkyo) but I chose to keep the Denon for the following reasons: 1) Denon has relatively lower power consumption (at the same RMS model) 2) Denon's learning remote is more intuitive and more intelligent.

My suggestion is.... buy now so you can start enjoying your HT.  You can't go wrong with any of the brands above (heard that HK and Marantz generally matches well with B&Ws too).

[bono vox]

Agree with the experts that there's no best a/v receiver and that it's difficult to compare due to varied tastes and price points.  Generally though (as many say), the ff. brands of a/v receivers "more often than not" perform better vs. other brands in most price points: 1) Denon 2) HK 3) Marantz 4) Onkyo 5) Yamaha (in no particular order).  I've tried Denon, Onkyo and Yamaha with my B&W 602 setup and in my opinion, Denon and Onkyo matches better compared to Yamaha.  Yamaha sounds great in cinema but falls a bit short on audio.  Denon and Onkyo in my opinion, provides a good balance and very natural sounding (transparent to the source).  I used to have both receivers at one time (Denon and Yamaha, then Denon and Onkyo) but I chose to keep the Denon for the following reasons: 1) Denon has relatively lower power consumption (at the same RMS model) 2) Denon's learning remote is more intuitive and more intelligent.

My suggestion is.... buy now so you can start enjoying your HT.  You can't go wrong with any of the brands above (heard that HK and Marantz generally matches well with B&Ws too).

thanks for your info sir blackgold!, i second the motion...
previously i own a yamaha rxv-795a, as of now i have already own a denon avr-3802, and planning for upgrading again.

[MAtZTER]

Hmm, if you have a Denon 3802 already, Dont you think getting another receiver at the same price class may merely be  a "sidegrade" instead of an upgrade? Maybe an upgrade in newer features but the performance wont be that far from your old receiver.

If you want an improvement in performance, why not invest in a power amp like Rotel? They suit B&W well & sonic improvements are going to be more obvious than another new receiver.

When you have a power amp, you can just keep replacing your receiver when new technologies (like the neverending HDMI 1.3, 1.5, 2.0 ) come.

just my 2 cents.

[bono vox]

Hmm, if you have a Denon 3802 already, Dont you think getting another receiver at the same price class may merely be  a "sidegrade" instead of an upgrade? Maybe an upgrade in newer features but the performance wont be that far from your old receiver.

If you want an improvement in performance, why not invest in a power amp like Rotel? They suit B&W well & sonic improvements are going to be more obvious than another new receiver.

When you have a power amp, you can just keep replacing your receiver when new technologies (like the neverending HDMI 1.3, 1.5, 2.0 ) come.

just my 2 cents.

sorry for my term upgrade.... i mean for my second set-up... for a 60T avr.
one for my bedroom and one for the living room.... syempre the best ang ilalagay ko sa bedroom.

now i been thinking for either denon again or the harman kardon... as per my evaluation to this topic.
thanks.

[aHobbit]

Agree with the experts that there's no best a/v receiver and that it's difficult to compare due to varied tastes and price points.  ...  Yamaha sounds great in cinema but falls a bit short on audio.  ...

This is true because you use it on the B&W. Yamaha is the one that works great for me (providing the best resolution in mid to high) not because it is a better receiver ... it is because, I paired it with high sensitivity speaker system (and this has been the findings by others who used Yamaha) ... so it is my 86db speaker that has to go

[bono vox]

one more thing.... i've heard as they said that if it is good to audio, it sounds better to video? is this true?

[aHobbit]

one more thing.... i've heard as they said that if it is good to audio, it sounds better to video? is this true?

Not really ... it depends on how one wants to implement each ... the theater mode demands more reflective and/or diffused sound to create an envelope of sound ... to many, bright sounding drivers works wonders for a holographic sound effects to keep you at your toes ... while the pure audio requires different tratment to keep you relax. Personally, I treat them separately. Nowadays, receivers are being tailored to give you a switch for pure audio listening, and pure HT enjoyment - also, you can also notice the design of many subs now, giving you a switch, depending on your application at a given time. I would say, maintain different sets of speakers for audio and video applications.

[Dracula]

Keep telling yourself that the receiver you have now is the best keeps SARS away

[ATJr.]

The AVR300 has two seperate power rails and when the 4 Ohm switch is selected the lower rails are selected. This actually has exactly the opposite effect to what is describe for 4 Ohm speakers. The reason for this is because the maximum load on the output transistors has to be kept withinn a Safe Operating Area (SOA) and this is a function of both the voltage and the current. So the higher the voltage on the output devices the less current we can allow to flow though them. The reverse of this is also true if we reduce the voltage (i.e set the system to 4 Ohms) then we can allow more current to flow through the output devices.

this makes a lot of sense, the manufacturer went out of its way to ensure a more realiable amp.

 

[aHobbit]

this makes a lot of sense, the manufacturer went out of its way to ensure a more realiable amp.

 

Yup! because that is already their chosen transistor device, and they implemented a design (rail switch) considering the limitation of their devices.

I wonder, if the lab tested the AVR300 and check that indeed, when switched from 8 to 4 ohms will increase current delivery. This will validate above claim. HK AVR 330 seems to have no switch.

[bono vox]

Not really ... it depends on how one wants to implement each ... the theater mode demands more reflective and/or diffused sound to create an envelope of sound ... to many, bright sounding drivers works wonders for a holographic sound effects to keep you at your toes ... while the pure audio requires different tratment to keep you relax. Personally, I treat them separately. Nowadays, receivers are being tailored to give you a switch for pure audio listening, and pure HT enjoyment - also, you can also notice the design of many subs now, giving you a switch, depending on your application at a given time. I would say, maintain different sets of speakers for audio and video applications.

thanks.... i only listen normally dd and dts to movies... no other surround fx or dsp mode... usually i always watched concert / musicals dvds.

[av_phile1]

this makes a lot of sense, the manufacturer went out of its way to ensure a more realiable amp.

 

This is the ARCAM implemetation for impedance switching into 4 and 8 ohms.  Unlike others that use voltage dividers. 

[av_phile1]

I did not see high current abilities being confirmed in the test measurement!  What I saw is the (very bad) current limits!   What fact is that again?

The lab measurements confirm my suspicion that HK does not have high current abilities.  But it gives a conservative power rating.  So the fact remains the two are different.

RX-V659 EISA HT receiver Best Product of the year 2006 (europe); audioholics product of the year 2006 (US) 

I just remember when comparing my previous RX-V630 75wpc x6 to HK similarly priced 40W x5 (conservatively rated). It turns out 630 is only 37.5W x6 (45W x5) when tested. In power specs alone, they just drum beat the same banana - it is really up to you which bait to bite!

Your own words, though I do recall reading earlier a more indicting statement you may have edited out.  And I was referring to that model.

[pchin]

Glad to know the Yamaha RX-V1700 received 5-star rating & the "WHAT HI-FI" award in 2006 for the Best Surround Receiver under $1,000.

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/products/ht/rxv1700.html

The Yamaha RX-V2700 also received the "WHAT HI-FI" award in 2007 1st Qtr.

Meanwhile the Arcam DiVA AVR350 received the "WHAT HI-FI" award in 2006 for the Best Surround Receiver above $1,000.

[ATJr.]

I wonder, if the lab tested the AVR300 and check that indeed, when switched from 8 to 4 ohms will increase current delivery. This will validate above claim. HK AVR 330 seems to have no switch.

current delivery is determined by the load, not the amplifier per se, delivering current in response to the input signal....the question is wether the amp has enough juice or not....

that is why claims by manufacturers about high current output is to be taken as marketing hype...without examining the circuit and looking inside the amp itself, such claims are to be taken with a spoonfull of salt...very difficult to swallow

switching from 8 ohms to 4 ohms ensures that the output transistors have a fighting chance of surviving heavy use....this is all there is to it..

[MAtZTER]

I hope we can put things back into perspective . As the first post was asking, we are talking of the "no compromise" $1,000+ receivers  here where premium parts are used. At this price & performance level, it is a different playing field. The $500 division (above or below) are different performers and we have to be realistic as parts are compromised due to cost factors (read an article about it). I dont think we are doing an "apple to apple" comparison if we use the lower models for analysis as different technology, parts & build are used w/ the top end AVR's.

Yamaha sounds great in cinema but falls a bit short on audio. 

I find this may be true if you rely on the DAC of the receiver (via dvdp), but if you use a good CDp (via analog), The amp section of the Yamaha (2500) can also do a superb job in audio, it was not far from the HK630. But I didnt try this w/ my Yamaha 650 (didnt have a CDp then), catalog says the 2000 series uses audiophile grade parts.

1) Denon has relatively lower power consumption (at the same RMS model)

Yep, just acquired a Denon 1705 for my bedroom and couldnt find the power consumption at the back. Turns out the 230w WAS the power consumption, thought it was voltage . This is a surprisingly low power consumption rating for a receiver. Checked out the Denon catalog: 1705- 230w, 1905 -260w, 2805- 330w, 3805- 380w. Yamaha 2500 is about 500w, my old 650 was at 440w. Onkyo 8 series 680w, HK630 was at 1,110w  .

[aHobbit]

...
that is why claims by manufacturers about high current output is to be taken as marketing hype...without examining the circuit and looking inside the amp itself, such claims are to be taken with a spoonfull of salt...very difficult to swallow
...

.. seems a lot swallowed it  without knowing it (or without knowing what is it all about)!  ...

...
I find this may be true if you rely on the DAC of the receiver (via dvdp), but if you use a good CDp (via analog), The amp section of the Yamaha (2500) can also do a superb job in audio, it was not far from the HK630. But I didnt try this w/ my Yamaha 650 (didnt have a CDp then), catalog says the 2000 series uses audiphile grade parts.
...

yep.    I put my separate NEC-A10II separate power amp to the pre-out of my 630 2 years ago, and my NEC sounded the same as Yamaha's amp output (I thought it should be more bilog, full bodied, more BASS because I have a behemoth no-nonsense uncompromised 26kg amp metals at the amp section) ... their common thing? ... the pre-amp and the DSP of Yamaha ... thus, the driver of sound differences in my 2 amps is the pre-amp and the DSPs ... thus, identify your sound, then get your pre and DSPs