Topic: I need my setup to sound warm

[oweidah]

only you can be a judge to that....after all has been said here...at the end of the day....only yourself can tell that if what you heard is warm or not and that is all that really matters...

AMEN ! 

[av_phile1]

In reality "warm" may just be an expression of the perceived goodness rather that harshness of the sound YOU hear. It may not have a technical measurement that one may rely into to say it is warm.

Actualy there is, the perception of sonic warmth has a lot to do with what peaks and dips in the mid range frequencies. A -3db frequency dip in the 3hz - 6hz range can often yield a perception of warmth. Same with a +3db peak in the 400hz to 800hz range.  Also, a lot of even-ordered harmonic distortion can impart warmth and full-bodied mid-ranges.

[aHobbit]

I warm-heartedly dedicate this post to those who care to learn, spare their pockets but choose intelligently according to what gives 

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

the amplifiers' rumble     

[oweidah]

O.T.

eto di lang warm, minsan redhot pa >

being an audiofool, k johnny fontaine pa rin ako... "I DID IT MY WAY !"





....unless someone makes an offer i cant refuse

[aHobbit]

I warm-heartedly dedicate this post to those who care to learn, spare their pockets but choose intelligently according to what gives 

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

the amplifiers' rumble     

Some highlightings (not my word ha!) 

"... It means that people who advise you to buy expensive amplifiers because they believe amps contribute coloration to acoustic quality probably couldnt tell the difference between their favorite exotic amp and a $200 Pioneer. (It doesnt mean that you should only choose the cheapest amp you can.)"    

"... Beware of adjective laden descriptions of acoustic colorations from an amplifier." 
    

[aHobbit]

I warmer-heartedly dedicate this post to those who care to learn more, spare their pockets more but choose more intelligently according to what gives more

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

excerpts
"I strongly suspect that people are more gullible today than they were in my younger years. Back then we didn’t put magnets in our shoes, the police didn’t use psychics to search for missing persons, and no head of state since Hitler had consulted astrologers. Most of us believed in science without any reservations...

... When the hi-fi era dawned, engineers like Paul Klipsch, Lincoln Walsh, Stew Hegeman, Dave Hafler, Ed Villchur, and C. G. McProud were our fountainhead of  audio information...

... The untutored tweako/weirdo pundits who don’t know the integral of e^x were still in the benighted future..."


the audiofools' rumble       
Inspite of the Internet, we are into dark ages of knowledge!


any of the above will not give you warmer sound - just warmer rooms!

[jerix]

Actualy there is, the perception of sonic warmth has a lot to do with what peaks and dips in the mid range frequencies. A -3db frequency dip in the 3hz - 6hz range can often yield a perception of warmth. Same with a +3db peak in the 400hz to 800hz range.  Also, a lot of even-ordered harmonic distortion can impart warmth and full-bodied mid-ranges.

Does this mean that it is possible to conclude that the amp sounds warm by just viewing the measuring tool and without listening to it?

[oweidah]

Does this mean that it is possible to conclude that the amp sounds warm by just viewing the measuring tool and without listening to it?

maski ipaskel mo sa pader ang manual, tech specs, lab reports, reviews etc., pag di nagtugma sa panlasa mo ang napapakinggan, useless kesehodang "exact science" pa yan

[aHobbit]

Does this mean that it is possible to conclude that the amp sounds warm by just viewing the measuring tool and without listening to it?

If warmness is defined as an extra loudness in the 3-6khz, you can say yes, it can be determined just by looking at the tool, even without listening into it! However, the measurement should be made at the speakers' output (thus, you can not avoid listening into it) - it is at the final output that should establish that indeed, there is an extra loudness in the said freq region to make it warm (as defined).


If warmness is not defined exactly, then anybody can just have his own idea of what warmness is - so this can not be identified at all unless all concerned agree to what warmness is all about.

[aHobbit]

maski ipaskel mo sa pader ang manual, tech specs, lab reports, reviews etc., pag di nagtugma sa panlasa mo ang napapakinggan, useless kesehodang "exact science" pa yan

The amplifier is almost an exact science as depicted by its THD measurement (less than 1% at rated power). Here, you can be dead sure, what you see in the specs (in decent gears) is what you will get (hear in an ideal speaker, if there is one).

The speaker remains one of the most difficult to tame in the electronic chain, despite development in science. Add to this is the interaction it will make with the listening room. Contrary to amplifiers, here, the specs will not give you an idea what the final sonic quality would be - thus, you have to listen very carefully for an issue. And different genre of sound has its own unique issue. Thus it is up to you to draw your selection criteria:
(1) leaning to musical materials and what kind of genre
(2) leaning to HT
(3) striking the middle ground (knowing & tolerating compromises)
(4) break out from your limitations and employ tools to vary amplifier characteristics according to your mood of listening  (this is digital age)

Some considers the speaker as the most critical choice that you have to make - then placing it the right way in your sonically mysterious room comes second. The amplifier will only be selected based on the loudness you want your speaker to deliver the goods - thus your wattage issue. It is almost unproductive to compare SQ of amplifiers with less than 1% THD. You dont compare amplifiers as most pdvd members do it - comparing -20db loudness of 1 to another, and making conclusion that louder is better (sensitivity specs of amplifiers are different, and has nothing to do with SQ)

All of the above are science (exact science if you may) - but in physical world, applying science concept derived from controlled (ideal) environments are not always possible (or maybe dont come easily as just plug n play aka PC), thus limitations/issues abounds. However, this does not mean that voodoo from thin air suddenly becomes applicable and solve your sonic problems! 

P.S. Speaker specs, specifically frequency response, if truthfully graphed can give you an idea of the sonic characteristics - but timbre, organics, etc etc (different taste) is so vast a subjective issue to be measured. Some speakers (many high ends) give good response but so wild an impedance dip that no amplifier will ever survive driving it to make a decent sound.

[cyrrus]

  but timber, organics, etc etc (different taste) is so vast a subjective issue to be measured.

timber? Di ba timbre?
Organics? First time i heard this kind of audiophile lingo.

[fita]

di naman ... baka sinasabay lang nila paggamit ng brains

A case of too much money and not enough brains, or a lot of over engineering, maybe both.

excerpts
"I strongly suspect that people are more gullible today than they were in my younger years. Back then we didn’t put magnets in our shoes, the police didn’t use psychics to search for missing persons, and no head of state since Hitler had consulted astrologers. Most of us believed in science without any reservations...

Wow, patingin naman ng setup. Puro naman lait sa mga taong may pera. Parang si Racksrus a.

Kaya siguro MAY PERA silang pambili ng high end setup, kasi tanga sila. Sino kaya ang tunay na tanga?

Mahirap naman din maging sobrang talino na "ECCENTRIC" ka na.

Yung mga A students at wiz kids namin dati sa batch, di sila kasing successfull ng mga B students namin. Ang lalaki ng mga kumpanya ngayon at malaking natutulong sa economy. Siguro gullible nga sila kaya nakarating sila ng ganyan.

[Ctlim]

^^^^^  toing!!!   

relax lang guys... to sum it all up, maybe we can agree that:

1) warm "sound" can be defined but at the end, it is still subjective
2) people buy what they can afford... bottom line, enjoy your treasures and leave the others to enjoy theirs.

[av_phile1]

Does this mean that it is possible to conclude that the amp sounds warm by just viewing the measuring tool and without listening to it?

What I meant was many of our subjective perceptions can have objective  explanations behind them when tested under dispassionate scientific scrutiny. 

[av_phile1]

maski ipaskel mo sa pader ang manual, tech specs, lab reports, reviews etc., pag di nagtugma sa panlasa mo ang napapakinggan, useless kesehodang "exact science" pa yan

Kung walang "exact science" kesehodang panlasa mo dahil wala kang mabibiling amplifier, speaker or player.   

[jerix]

What I meant was many of our subjective perceptions can have objective  explanations behind them when tested under dispassionate scientific scrutiny. 

So if the term "warm" if defined  based on ones subjective perception, and that perception of "warm" deviates from anothers perception, then the technical measurement one may get out of that perception may also fall over or below the measurement you get from anothers perception.

[av_phile1]

There are some subjective perceptions or assessments that can be common to many. They also can happen with statistical preponderance or a large consensus.  These are often subjected to scientific scrutiny to better understand the rationale behind such a common perception.  And when something like a common perception of warmth on an amp or speaker can be verified with measurements that can also have a common trend, like having a frequency dip in certain frequency regions or a rise in mid frequencies due to even-ordered harmonics, then a subjective opinion like that can be said to be caused by a unique measurable attribute and thus have some basis in fact. That is what I was referring to.

So when someone deviates from that consensus, like when he finds the amp analytical when the majority considers it warm sounding and has been shown to have a unique measurable attribute, then it's fair to say his subjective opinion has no basis in fact.  It's just his personal opinion based on his own judgement value on what is warm.

[jerix]

So bro if people in Europe who use mostly European brand amps like HK maybe or Marantz will define "warm" based on these amps and brand the japanese amps like Onkyo, Pioneer, etc. as "bright" and the japanese who likes their own amps define "warm" based on what they hear from their own amps, then it follows that there will be no universal definition and measurement of these terms when used in the audio world.

 

[oweidah]

round and round we go, subjectivists objectivists, never shall the twain meet...

pinapahirap pa kasi, di na lang hayaan ang mga tao na mag-enjoy. sa dinami-dami ng mga scientific findings, eh bakit kaya ang daming cable companies na nagsusulputan? madaming tanga o nagtatangahan? o di kaya mas madaling basahin intindihin at kagatin ang mga flowery words ng mga hypes kesa sa mga highfaluting techno mumjo-jumbo na di naman maintindihan ng laymen?

[bumblebee]

...
eh bakit kaya ang daming cable companies na nagsusulputan?
...

Me market e. For the rich, buy anything you want. Never mind the reasons. But for poor audio newbies, I believe that we should buy gears for the right reasons.

You want your cable to "warm up" your system or you just want a warm system?

[barrister]

So bro if people in Europe who use mostly European brand amps like HK maybe or Marantz will define "warm" based on these amps and brand the japanese amps like Onkyo, Pioneer, etc. as "bright" and the japanese who likes their own amps define "warm" based on what they hear from their own amps, then it follows that there will be no universal definition and measurement of these terms when used in the audio world.

That's right.  Different people, different preferences. 

In the analog hi-fi days, they even classified audio preferences.  I used to read about "British sound" vs. "American sound".  Then the American sound was further classified into ""East Coast sound" and "West Coast sound"; "Atlantic sound" and "Pacific sound".  With the rise of Japanese electronics in the 70's, they called it the "Japanese sound".

It's not that the electronics sounded that way by accident, depending on where they were made.  They were intentionally tuned that way depending on what their target market wanted.

I'm not sure what those terms mean.  We need help from sir av_phile1.   
 

So bro if people in Europe who use mostly European brand amps like HK maybe or Marantz will define "warm" based on these amps ...

BTW, HK is a U.S. company based in Woodbury, New York, a division of Harman International based in Washington, DC.  Marantz was originally New York-based; now it's Japanese.   

[Superman]

agree with av_phile and oweidah, round and round, going in circles...BUT nobody can make a final decision EXCEPT the listener himself/herself...again, the listener has to "personally define" what warmness in sound is...is it warm because you want to tame the harshness of the highs?? is it warm because you want a fuller sound aka "mataba"?? even warmness is subjective...

as for expensive cables...it depends...system matching is the KEY!...some people can afford, let them be...that's their decision...if we cannot afford high-end expensive cables, it's OK, there are so many budget cables that will also bring out the juice in your system...

[bumblebee]

Regarding system matching, I hope it's not based on trial and error.

[Superman]

Regarding system matching, I hope it's not based on trial and error.

Sometimes it does...so if possible to request home audition, would be better...

[bumblebee]

Pano kung walang home audition? Walang mahiraman? This is often the case.

[john5479]

unfortunately unless you can audition extensively, trial and error ang labas...or leap of faith 

[barrister]

Some members say that a discussion about sound characteristics is useless.

Ok lang if the user is satisfied with his setup.  But what if he is not?

He wants an upgrade.  Does he audition everything until kingdom come?  Of course not. 

He tries asking around to narrow down his choices.  The response he gets is the usual "Let your ears be the judge".  That's not very helpful, is it?   

That's why I think a dicsussion like this has its uses.

[bumblebee]

Well the user better know what an upgrade is. To him/her at least.

[Superman]

Pano kung walang home audition? Walang mahiraman? This is often the case.

better pick out cables that you can home audition, if not it's really trial and error

[MAtZTER]

"I strongly suspect that people are more gullible today than they were in my younger years.

I agree with you, I love value for money gears, but you have begun dropping adjectives now. That I dont agree to. 

Cheer up this is just a hobby, not our life! 

"... Beware of adjective laden descriptions of acoustic colorations from an amplifier." 
    

Beware of adjective laden descriptions of others from a member as well? 

Joke lang 

maski ipaskel mo sa pader ang manual, tech specs, lab reports, reviews etc., pag di nagtugma sa panlasa mo ang napapakinggan, useless kesehodang "exact science" pa yan

Someone please PM me what kesehoda means? My lowest grades in school was always Pilipino.