Topic: Atheism/Agnosticism in the Philippines

[barrister]

... I had a friend who is a Muslim told me that Jesus' birth and crucifixion was a made up.

Does he mean that Jesus never existed?  If so, then he's not a very knowledgable Muslim.

Muslims believe that Jesus existed.  However, they do not believe that he was crucified or that he is God incarnate.  

In Islam, Jesus (Arabic: عيسى‎ `Īsā) is considered a messenger of God who had been sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl (gospel).  The Qur'an states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid him in his quest, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles, all by the permission of God. According to Islamic texts, Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, but rather he was raised alive up to heaven.

Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim, as he preached for people to adopt the straight path in submission to God's will.  Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God (shirk), emphasizing the notion of God's divine oneness (tawhīd).  Jesus is seen in Islam as a precursor to Muhammad, and is believed by Muslims to have foretold the latter's coming.

How come there are no evidence of Jesus' Crucifixion and birth? Well except Pliny the younger's writings about 1st century Christians.

There are a few historical references about his crucifixion, but they are very few:


From Jewish sources:

-  Talmud, b. Sanhedrin 43a: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged [or crucified]. ... Since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.

-  The Amoa "Ulla" (Ulla was a disciple of Youchanan and lived in Palestine at the end of the third century) adds: "And do you suppose that for (Yeshu of Nazareth - Jesus) there was any right of appeal? He was a beguiler, and the Merciful One hath said: "Thou shalt not spare neither shalt thou conceal him." It is otherwise with Yeshu, for He was near to the civil authority.

 
From Roman sources:

-  Cornelius Tacitus in his Annals, xv. 44: Christus ... was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontius Pilate.

-  Lucian of Samosata: (Christ was) the man who was crucified in Palestine



Jesus is famous today, but remember that during his time, he was actually a nobody.  In fact, the whole Jewish race were a bunch of nobodies in the Roman Empire.  

On the contrary, if you find a lot of historical records about Jesus today, the authenticity of those records would be highly suspicious.

[jmigs]

@ sir barrister
Thank You for elaborating...

But all these non-biblical sources were/are challenged by critics/non-believers, others believed it was altered. Even though there are lack of evidences, we know that some people (Nero and Poncius Pilate) who are connected with Jesus was recorded in historical accounts. Yup there are many Yesua, Mary and Joseph during that time but there was only one, who died and responsible for bringing Christianity in Rome.
It's really hard to convince Skeptics.

Those religions whose founders claimed they had talked to God and gave them guidance or whatsoever...It's a total NO NO they don't even have powers to perform miracles. All they do/did is/was to predict the end of the world...LoL

Evolution? Huh? It all happened in the first 7 days which maybe equivalent to millions of years for a typical human. All the Dinosaurs died because they couldn't fit on Noah's Ark...lol just kidding.

 

[frootloops]

Don't know where to post this, guess okay na dito.  

My daughter asked me earlier about the TV AD she saw at ABS-CBN...

"Dad, who is "Bro" they are talking about?"

I replied..."Jesus Christ"

then she gave me a blank face and said...."to call GOD OUR CREATOR just by this name "Bro"?

Just told her not to immitate it especially since she is in a catholic school. Isn't this a case of blasphemy?

[barrister]

Hindi mo lang siguro na-gets kung ano yung "Bro" sa ABS CBN.



In the ABS CBN TV show "May Bukas Pa", the orphan boy Santino found a dirty statue of Jesus Christ with wounds on the hands and feet.  The statue came to life and became Santino's friend and confidant, whom Santino affectionately called "Bro".  Afterwards, Bro bestowed upon Santino the power to miraculously heal the sick.

That is why ABS CBN says "Bro, Ikaw ang Star ng Pasko".  It's actually another attempt to further promote one of their popular programs.

Biblically, there is basis for calling Jesus our brother.  Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.  But Christians are also considered sons of God by adoption.  Therefore, Christians and Jesus are brothers by adoption.

In Romans, Jesus is called the firstborn among many brothers:

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29, NIV)

In Hebrews, Jesus and Christians are of the same family and are therefore considered brothers:

"Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. He says, "I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises." ... (Hebrews 2:11-12, NIV)

However, Jesus' being a "brother" to Christians is not the whole story because that's only one minor aspect.  Jesus is also the Head of the Church, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords.

[frootloops]

Kasi kung titignan mo yung palabas si Kristo ang lalaking kausap nya. Kung hindi man alam ni Santino kung sino ba talaga ang kausap nya, ang mga ibang tao or bata iisipin si kristo yun. Naiintidihan ko rin ang posted verses mo, "Jesus and Christians are of the same family and are therefore considered brothers" pero hindi yata magandang tularan at marinig ng kabataan na tawagin si Kristo ng Bro base sa nakikita sa palabas nila.

[barrister]

Totoo rin yon, kasi ang kadalasang gamit ng "bro", yung pang-barkada lang e.  Parang may pagka-presko ang dating ... 

[Klaus Weasley]

[oweidah]

as in the 60s - "the times, they are a changing" (robert zimmerman) &  time for a cool change (little river band) 

[jerix]

To those who know the story behind the term bro used by santino in that telenovela, I think there is no problem. 

[oweidah]

To those who know the story behind the term bro used by santino in that telenovela, I think there is no problem. 

baka puro kapamilya yun, paano mga kapuso?

[dpogs]

aHobbit have the most accurate information and knowledge about what is "TRUE SALVATION".




Truth:

1. not all can be saved from hell only few, in fact, "wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat"

2. salvation cannot be obtained (through our own effort)... it is FREE. - i added "through our own effort" kasi kung unobtainable ang salvation then everybody is going to hell that contadict no.1.

3. no need to do good things (or to be righteous) to go to heaven.

4. righteousness is just fruit of salvation.

5. being righteous doesnt mean that you are not going to hell.

[dpogs]

FLORIDA COURT SETS ATHEIST HOLY DAY

In Florida , an atheist created a case against the upcoming Easter and Passover Holy days. He hired an attorney to bring a discrimination case against Christians and Jews and observances of their holy days. The argument was that it was unfair that atheists had no such recognized days.

The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the passionate presentation by the lawyer, the judge banged his gavel declaring,"Case dismissed!"

The lawyer immediately stood objecting to the ruling saying, "Your honor, How can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter and others. The Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah, yet my client and all other atheists have no such holidays.."

The judge leaned forward in his chair saying, "But you do. Your client, counsel, is woefully ignorant."

The lawyer said, "Your Honor, we are unaware of any special observance or holiday for atheists."

The judge said, "The calendar says April 1st is April Fools Day. Psalm 14:1 states, 'The fool says in his heart, there is no God.' Thus, it is the opinion of this court, that, if your client says there is no God, then he is a fool. Therefore, April 1st is his day. Court is adjourned."

 

[indie boi]

aHobbit have the most accurate information and knowledge about what is "TRUE SALVATION".




Truth:

1. not all can be saved from hell only few, in fact, "wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat"

2. salvation cannot be obtained... it is FREE.

3. no need to do good things (or to be righteous) to go to heaven.

4. righteousness is just fruit of salvation.

5. being righteous doesnt mean that you are not going to hell.

Just read this. Can you explain item number 3, please? What should a person do to go to heaven?

[Klaus Weasley]

3. no need to do good things (or to be righteous) to go to heaven.

Don't you think it's a tad more admirable that a person still does good things and is a good person despite the fact he doesn't believe in heaven or hell? I mean, who is better? Someone who believes in God but does good things only because he fears punishment (hell) and desires reward (heaven) or someone who does not believe in God but still does good things because he wants to be good and he wants to be good to people period.

If you believe that the second person goes to hell and first one goes to heaven, then you believe in a petty, vain God. I don't believe in that God.

[dpogs]

... Can you explain item number 3, please? ...

please read no. 2. Salvation cannot be obtained... it is FREE.

siguro magtatanong kayo... and nabasa ko na rin sa ibang post... na  ok lang maging masama and yet pupunta pa rin sa langit...

please read no. 4. Righteousness is just a "FRUIT" of salvation.

meaning a manifestation of true salvation or true faith. knowing no. 2 and no. 3 is not a license or justification of doing evil/unrighteousness.


[/i]

... What should a person do to go to heaven?

that is not the right question sir. the right question must be:

What should a person must have to go to heaven?

Don't you think it's a tad more admirable that a person still does good things and is a good person despite the fact he doesn't believe in heaven or hell? I mean, who is better? Someone who believes in God but does good things only because he fears punishment (hell) and desires reward (heaven) or someone who does not believe in God but still does good things because he wants to be good and he wants to be good to people period.

If you believe that the second person goes to hell and first one goes to heaven, then you believe in a petty, vain God. I don't believe in that God.

sir, i am afraid that those two persons you mentioned.... both will go to hell.

[moejun]

^ no person knows who is or isn't going to hell. God alone decides. that is, if you guys believe in God.

[indie boi]

^ no person knows who is or isn't going to hell. God alone decides.

Amen.

[dpogs]

who is better? Someone who believes in God but does good things only because he fears punishment (hell) and desires reward (heaven) or someone who does not believe in God but still does good things because he wants to be good and he wants to be good to people period.

If you believe that the second person goes to hell and first one goes to heaven, then you believe in a petty, vain God. I don't believe in that God.

based on your example

1. A person who believes in God but does good things only because he fears hell and desires heaven
2. A person who does not believe in God but still does good things because he wants to be good and he wants to be good to people.

Question:
1. Who is better:?: Person no. 1 of course. but in reference to who is going to heaven... there is no such word "better person" or "righteous person"
2. Who is going to hell or heaven?: both, based on your question

Person No. 1: I assumed that this person is going to hell because of my statement No. 2 (Salvation is free) and No. 3 (no need to do righteousness in order to go to heaven) and you specifically state that this person 'does good things only because he/she desires heaven' (take note: my statement no. 4)

Person No. 2: I assumed that this person is going to hell on the ground that he/she really dont believed in God kahit gaano man siya kabuti sa mata ng tao.

well if your question is like this:

Who is going to heaven:

A person who believe in God and does good things or a person who says he/she believe in God but not doing any good at all?

That, i cannot answer and i can also say that "no person know who is or isn't going to hell or heaven".

Only you/me can say if we are really going to heaven.

[aHobbit]

^ no person knows who is or isn't going to hell. God alone decides. that is, if you guys believe in God.

You are wrong ... and then you are right!

If the Bible is encrypted, it is only encrypted to those who do not believe!
Of course, God alone decides, and it is well documented in the Bible.
But one can know!
In fact, one can also know if he is going to hell using the same Bible.

That is, if you believe the Bible to be authentic (unless you are not any of the variants of Christian religion).

(1) One of the robbers crucified together with Jesus had been assured before His crucifixion death "today, you will be with me in paradise" (either you dont believe the words, or Jesus is lying or the Bible is just a fiction book).

(2) When Jesus told His disciples He is leaving, his disciples got worried. But He told them "in my father's house are many mansion ... so that you will be where I am" (unless Jesus meant He is going to hell)

(3) In John 10, Jesus said "I know my sheep, and my sheep know me" (unless Jesus do not know what He is talking about)

(4) In the last days of Jesus temporary mortal life He told His disciples - it is the real Lord's prayer (not the our Father thingie - which is in fact the Disciple's Prayer) as recorded in John 17. "Every person the Father gave Jesus, Jesus will gather, and secure - and to make it even harder to be lost, they will be sealed by the Holy Spirit".

(5) In Romans 8 (specifically 38-39), Paul told the believers in Rome "If God is for us, who can be against us? death, famine, persecution, ... In all these things we are more than conquerors"

(6) In the OT, in the life of King David, when his son via Bathsheba (a big sin in the life of David) died, he was comforted and said "I will go to him later". FYI, David is a man after God's own heart - from where the line of messiah came from. (Could David meant hell?)

Can go longer here if some wanted more ...

[aHobbit]

Don't you think it's a tad more admirable that a person still does good things and is a good person despite the fact he doesn't believe in heaven or hell? I mean, who is better? Someone who believes in God but does good things only because he fears punishment (hell) and desires reward (heaven) or someone who does not believe in God but still does good things because he wants to be good and he wants to be good to people period.

If you believe that the second person goes to hell and first one goes to heaven, then you believe in a petty, vain God. I don't believe in that God.

The first thing you have to understand is your own condition before a HOLY GOD!
- that from the time of your birth, you have the curse inherent in a mortal body caused by Adam & Eve
- that your very action and thought is typically adverse to God's HOLINESS
- that you in your state, has no capability to save yourself from the very state that you are in

This is the same as the cry of Paul "oh wretched man that I am, who can deliver me from the body of this death?"

Paul is a top notch lawyer of God's commandment - a true Jewish defender of Judaistic laws - probably followed to the letter the requirements of the mosaic traditions.


My note: when you come into realization who God is - in His HOLINESS - you will recognize that the good things/deeds that man can claim to himself is as described in ISAIAH - FILTHY RAGS (a used feminine napkin). Go, picture yourself offering a used feminine napkin to a HOLY GOD! That's the BETTER you are talking about!


Of course, we live in civil and relative goodness, to live and co-exist in peace - but such is not a measure of God's acceptance!


GOD do not need people who are good and has no need of salvation! This is the reason why the Scribes and Pharisees was taken aback by Jesus declaration "The prostitutes and robbers and criminals have gone ahead of them in paradise!"


Why? because they knew they sinned and need salvation that they themselves can not provide for their own. King David slept with another man's wife (Bathsheba), then have the man, his top general killed in battle, and David have a son by the girl (who later died) as a punishment for him.

[av_phile1]

Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm

[aHobbit]

Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm

This is a good read ... and quite presented in a readable manner!

Amusing is the establishment of "First Church of Christ of the Big Bang"   


So Science validates the Bible, and the Bible supports Science ... and mere theories will not pass the validation of both Bible & Science!


Thanks for the link    ... though sometime sounds high falluting (to me at first), the reading is really an interesting one. Indeed, bolstering creation, combined with the findings of Institute of Creation Science.

[Klaus Weasley]

"Creation Science" = That's an oxymoron.

[aHobbit]

"Creation Science" = That's an oxymoron.

Sa 'yo!  

All accumulated findings and gathered knowledge in science points to the credibility of the biblical account of creation! Biblical accounts support science, while science validates  biblical accounts!  

If there is an oxymoron term - from the very beginning, it has been the Evolution "Science". To date, we can almost relegate evolutionism as a moronic belief!    

the very foundation by which this theory was formulated already crumbled down in the light of more discoveries and discussions among phycists! Even atheist physicists  can not ignore that the endpoint of their research points back to the intelligent creator not bound by time!

and it is just a matter of time that evolution will be an obsolete theory in the same level as that of the "flat earth"!

Of course, nobody is stopping anybody to believe in it!

[indie boi]

I, for one, would like to read actual, non-fiction scientific findings supporting the existence of Adam and Eve and incontrovertible proof of a 10,000 year old universe. I would also like to see actual scientific findings debunking a heliocentric system. 

[indie boi]

Ahobbit, with all due respect, may I know what church you belong in? Just curious.

[sardaukar]

All accumulated findings and gathered knowledge in science points to the credibility of the biblical account of creation! Biblical accounts support science, while science validates  biblical accounts!  

The posted link above gives the age of the universe as 30 billion years (1,000,000,000,000,000,000 seconds). Luma na nga yata yan kasi new estimates only put the age between 13-14 billion years. Regardless, does that mean you no longer subscribe to Young Earth Creationism?

[dpogs]

I have a better equation too:

atheist* = fool

* these are those who deny the existence of God or those who claimed that there is no God.



our mere existence in this world is a simple evidence that there is GOD. and to deny that simple fact is simply foolishness.

kahit nga ang mga ninuno natin (even without the proper knowledge of Bible or religion), they acknowledge that there is mighty being in charge of nature.

BUT... i think in my own opinion, there is another form of foolishness:

- those who claimed that there is God and yet God is not evident in their way of life.
- those who go to church every Sunday and live his/her life from Monday to Saturday full of sins and of no repentance.

[av_phile1]

BUT... i think in my own opinion, there is another form of foolishness:

- those who claimed that there is God and yet God is not evident in their way of life.
- those who go to church every Sunday and live his/her life from Monday to Saturday full of sins and of no repentance.

Yup, but that's really more hypocrisy than foolishness. 

[oweidah]

Ahobbit, with all due respect, may I know what church you belong in? Just curious.

+1