Author Topic: TT (brand Dual) - help (Read 4740 times)

kulapong · « **on:** Jun 29, 2009 at 11:24 AM »

Mga Analog gurus,

patulong naman....just bought my pre-owned TT (Dual), tas ang hina ng tunog....

parang ma di dissappoint yata ako sa analog ah??

tama bang i replace ko ung cartridge or stylus? in case anong brand ang pwe pwede at how much kaya.

tama ba?? nasa cartridge secreto kaya maganda tunog ng TT?

Salamat po sa mga makakasagot ng problema ko.

Chito C. · « **Reply #1 on:** Jun 29, 2009 at 11:36 AM »

Pa explain pa kung ano problema. Kung mahinang mahina yung tunog baka hindi nakakabit sa phonostage yung TT mo.

bass_nut · « **Reply #2 on:** Jun 29, 2009 at 11:48 AM »

saan po ninyo connect yung rca cables ng Dual tt ? meron po bang phono input yung AVR/integrated amp/ preamp ninyo?

ano po ang cartridge ninyo? low, medium o high output type? moving coil or moving magnet ?

kung wala pong phono input jack ang avr/integrated amp/preamp o kaya naman ay mababa ang output voltage ng cartridge ninyo eh baka po kailangan ninyo ng phono amp... meron phono amp na limitado ang kakayanan mag-amplify ng signal at meron din phono amp na "capable"... dapat po malaman ang mga detalye para po maayos ang pagtugma (matching) ng mga gamit

sekreto.. nagsisimula po ang signal sa karayom (o cartridge)... lahat po ng dadaanan ng signal ay importante...

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1051/turntable-basics-a-beginners-guide-to-turntables-and-vinyl-recordshttp://www.ehow.com/how_1671_buy-phono-cartridge.html

halimbawa po ng phono amp na meron kakayanan mag-amplify ng maraming uri ng cartdridge

ProtegeManiac · « **Reply #3 on:** Jun 29, 2009 at 12:22 PM »

may phonopreamp ka ba? or kung integrated amp gamit mo baka meron built-in phono preamp yan. take note di basta may label na "phono" phono preamp yan, kasi ang label niyan para lang sa convenience ng set-up (ie pag nag-switch ka ng source). kung meron make sure kabit mo yun phono ground.

kulapong · « **Reply #4 on:** Jun 29, 2009 at 01:41 PM »

Mga Sirs,

Meron po akong (NAD 304) used as pre-amp,...

TT - NAD - Denon 1907

ganito po ang setup, ung Dual TT meron pong grnd, kinabit ko naman.

btw, ung NAD304, kinabitan ko ng CDplayer andtape deck...at ginamit ko rin as integrated amp...ok naman sya. tingin ko ung TT nga.

Tas ung karayom napupuna ko po, pwede sya i move palayo/papasok, me konting improvement pag ginagalaw....pero still parang hindi pa rin ako satisfied sa tunog. Mahina pa rin...

Nung bata kasi ako,...i remember meron kaming turntable...at alam ko ang ganda ng tunog nun., gusto ko lang kasing mapatugtug ung ibang LP's na kinalakihan ko.

JoeyGS · « **Reply #5 on:** Jun 29, 2009 at 02:11 PM »

The NAD 304 has a phono preamp and we assume that your TT is connected to the Phono inputs of the NAD 304.

Question:

- What cartridge/stylus are you using? Your NAD Phono preamp only accepts MM type of Cartridge/Stylus

If you are using a MM type of cartridge/stylus, then most probably the problem is the alignment of the cartridge/stylus.

kulapong · « **Reply #6 on:** Jun 29, 2009 at 04:50 PM »

Sir Joey,

When i look at the stylus..mukhang stock..Dual nakita ko na brand.

What is MM? sorry ha (google ko nga, sana di ako ma nosebleed)...novice lang talaga, pero i think tama naman ung connections ko sa NAD, i can actually use it as pre-amp or integrated (naglagay pa ko speaker).....gumana naman, hina lang ng tunog, halos di ko pa nga madinig boses eh.

Ok naman po ung mga plaka,....meron pa nga akong sealed pa, speaker ok na ok din. im using it for my HT and CD listening.

Salamat uli.

kulapong · « **Reply #7 on:** Jun 29, 2009 at 04:54 PM »

Quote from: bass_nut on Jun 29, 2009 at 11:48 AM

saan po ninyo connect yung rca cables ng Dual tt ? meron po bang phono input yung AVR/integrated amp/ preamp ninyo?

ano po ang cartridge ninyo? low, medium o high output type? moving coil or moving magnet ?

kung wala pong phono input jack ang avr/integrated amp/preamp o kaya naman ay mababa ang output voltage ng cartridge ninyo eh baka po kailangan ninyo ng phono amp... meron phono amp na limitado ang kakayanan mag-amplify ng signal at meron din phono amp na "capable"... dapat po malaman ang mga detalye para po maayos ang pagtugma (matching) ng mga gamit

sekreto.. nagsisimula po ang signal sa karayom (o cartridge)... lahat po ng dadaanan ng signal ay importante...

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1051/turntable-basics-a-beginners-guide-to-turntables-and-vinyl-recordshttp://www.ehow.com/how_1671_buy-phono-cartridge.html

halimbawa po ng phono amp na meron kakayanan mag-amplify ng maraming uri ng cartdridge

Sir Bass_nut,

di ko po masagot ung low, medium, high output type...ung RCA cables connections tama naman po. NAD 304 is what im using as phono preamp....Thanks sa url link....im currently reading it now.

JoeyGS · « **Reply #8 on:** Jun 30, 2009 at 10:02 AM »

What's the model of your Dual TT?

MM = Moving Magnet

Hopefully your Cartridge/Stylus is not MC (Moveing Coil) because this has normally low output.

Quote from: kulapong on Jun 29, 2009 at 04:50 PM

Sir Joey,

When i look at the stylus..mukhang stock..Dual nakita ko na brand.

What is MM? sorry ha (google ko nga, sana di ako ma nosebleed)...novice lang talaga, pero i think tama naman ung connections ko sa NAD, i can actually use it as pre-amp or integrated (naglagay pa ko speaker).....gumana naman, hina lang ng tunog, halos di ko pa nga madinig boses eh.

Ok naman po ung mga plaka,....meron pa nga akong sealed pa, speaker ok na ok din. im using it for my HT and CD listening.

Salamat uli.

kulapong · « **Reply #9 on:** Jun 30, 2009 at 01:00 PM »

Thanks Sir Joey, check ko tonight ung model ng Dual TT ko,

btw, how will i know if it is MM or MC, me nakalagay ba dapat sa cart?

JoeyGS · « **Reply #10 on:** Jun 30, 2009 at 01:38 PM »

Quote from: kulapong on Jun 30, 2009 at 01:00 PM

btw, how will i know if it is MM or MC, me nakalagay ba dapat sa cart?

Normally, if the cart has a model number printed on it, it can be checked. Also, if the cart is stock and it comes stock with the TT, it can also be checked in the net or in the TT manual.

Physically I am not in a position to describe how to distinguish an MM from and MC cart.

bass_nut · « **Reply #11 on:** Jun 30, 2009 at 06:09 PM »

from what i observed moving coil usually do not have replacement stylus while moving magnet have these ... let's wait for our experts to chime in for better info

Jagner · « **Reply #12 on:** Jul 01, 2009 at 11:16 AM »

Quote from: kulapong on Jun 29, 2009 at 04:50 PM

Sir Joey,

When i look at the stylus..mukhang stock..Dual nakita ko na brand.

What is MM? sorry ha (google ko nga, sana di ako ma nosebleed)...novice lang talaga, pero i think tama naman ung connections ko sa NAD, i can actually use it as pre-amp or integrated (naglagay pa ko speaker).....gumana naman, hina lang ng tunog, halos di ko pa nga madinig boses eh.

Ok naman po ung mga plaka,....meron pa nga akong sealed pa, speaker ok na ok din. im using it for my HT and CD listening.

Salamat uli.

If you can post a picture of your cartridge and turntable, we can narrow down the problem. Assuming that what your using is a stock cartridge, it must be an MM and it may still have an available replacement stylus (there are still some stock replacement stylus in Raon).

However, the problem may also lie on the cartridge, as 1) there may already be a problem on the cartridge generator; or 2) that the cartridge pins are badly corroded. You can buy a TPC wipe at the Audiophile store and just clean the pins and leads (including the RCA plugs of your IC), but if the problem is still there, then you may have to replace the cartridge.

Hope this helps.

oweidah · « **Reply #13 on:** Jul 01, 2009 at 11:20 AM »

sir kulapong, anong model ang dual TT mo? nagkaron din ako ng dual tt nung 80s cs505 yata...

kulapong · « **Reply #14 on:** Jul 01, 2009 at 04:55 PM »

To All,

Nakita ko na po ung problema kagabi, dun sa stylus/cart,....meron isang maliit na wire na disconnected, color blue....will post a picture tonight...

Im thinking kung paano ko i so solder...kasi di ko matanggal ung cart, hanap ako manual ng CS 508 sa net, ala ako makita.

Any help, kung paano tanggalin para ma solder ko?

Sir Oweidah,

Dual CS 508 ung sa akin :-)

JoeyGS · « **Reply #15 on:** Jul 01, 2009 at 05:27 PM »

You may want to browse the Dual website for tips on how to dismantle the headshell, stylus, cart.

http://dual-reference.com/index.html

Quote from: kulapong on Jul 01, 2009 at 04:55 PM

To All,

Nakita ko na po ung problema kagabi, dun sa stylus/cart,....meron isang maliit na wire na disconnected, color blue....will post a picture tonight...

Im thinking kung paano ko i so solder...kasi di ko matanggal ung cart, hanap ako manual ng CS 508 sa net, ala ako makita.

Any help, kung paano tanggalin para ma solder ko?

Sir Oweidah,

Dual CS 508 ung sa akin :-)

sandawa · « **Reply #16 on:** Jul 01, 2009 at 06:24 PM »

Quote from: kulapong on Jul 01, 2009 at 04:55 PM

To All,

Nakita ko na po ung problema kagabi, dun sa stylus/cart,....meron isang maliit na wire na disconnected, color blue....will post a picture tonight...

Im thinking kung paano ko i so solder...kasi di ko matanggal ung cart, hanap ako manual ng CS 508 sa net, ala ako makita.

Any help, kung paano tanggalin para ma solder ko?

Sir Oweidah,

Dual CS 508 ung sa akin :-)

Oweidah, I know, used Dual TTs when he was in his 20s. So, if he's dropping by your place, he'll know what to do. I still use two Dual TTs -- 1219 and 621 (photo below).

Halos lahat ng vintage Dual (Germany) may cartridge holder. Dun mo pwede tanggalin ang screws. Para mahulog ang cartridge holder, itulak mo yung metal na hawakan ng headshell:

sandawa · « **Reply #17 on:** Jul 01, 2009 at 06:40 PM »

In response to your first post, the old Duals, or from 60s to 70s models, used Shure cartridges, although they were labeled Duals. Shure and Dual had technical partnership back then. Dual TTs did not use Shure entry level M-44 though, but more from M-75, M-91, to V15 types II to IV.

Since you own a 508, an early '80s model in the Dual ULM series, the cartridges used there were the Ortofon OMs. Dual shifted from Shure to Ortofon when the company started to produce its low-mass units (from steel to plastic chassis too). Ortofon which produced the lightest cartridges during the '80s eventually bought Dual later when the demand for TTs waned.

sandawa · « **Reply #18 on:** Jul 01, 2009 at 09:16 PM »

Got your PM. Problema hindi ko mai-attach sa PM ang photo. Ganito sa ibaba dapat ang malalaglag, the entire cartridge assembly and the holder. Ang maiiwan sa tonearm yung headshell. If you notice yung dulo ng cartridge holder may apat na maliliit na tubo, yun and kumu-kunekta sa tonearm wires thru the headshell.

kulapong · « **Reply #19 on:** Jul 01, 2009 at 09:35 PM »

eto ung stylus...green pala ung disconnected...di ko sya matanggal eh..

patulak ba or pahila..di kaya mapwersa?

sandawa · « **Reply #20 on:** Jul 01, 2009 at 10:28 PM »

Itutulak yung headshell handle dapat in full, mga 45 degrees, para matanggal yung cartridge holder. Unless walang cartridge holder yang tonearm mo. Ano yung pinagdidikitan ng cartridge? I'm wondering bakit yung cartridge (obviously a Dual/Ortofon) ang nalaglag. Dapat may screws yan sa cartridge holder like what is shown in my photo.

Baka naman binago ng Ortofon yung headshell tonearm assembly ng ULM series at integrated na yan? Kapag ganun yung sistema, talagang mahirap i-repair yan. Para bang ayaw papalitan ng Ortofon yung installed cartridge nila at dapat sa kanila lang ipa-service

BTW, dati ang nagse-service ng Dual sa Maynila sila Jing de Guzman, yung original shop sa Paco.

oweidah · « **Reply #21 on:** Jul 02, 2009 at 05:09 AM »

Quote from: sandawa on Jul 01, 2009 at 06:24 PM

Oweidah, I know, used Dual TTs when he was in his 20s. So, if he's dropping by your place, he'll know what to do. I still use two Dual TTs -- 1219 and 621 (photo below).

Halos lahat ng vintage Dual (Germany) may cartridge holder. Dun mo pwede tanggalin ang screws. Para mahulog ang cartridge holder, itulak mo yung metal na hawakan ng headshell:

hi sir sandawa,

yes during our 20s

not too long ago............buti na lang sinagot mo na yung problema kundi mapapa-google ako review turntable101 hehehe

sandawa · « **Reply #22 on:** Jul 02, 2009 at 07:06 AM »

Rene,
Ang hirap lang, Dual ULM na yung kay Kulapong, hindi tulad nung mga units natin nuon na ginawa panahon pa siguro ni Macapagal (e.g. my 1219 bought in mid '80s was Dual's TOTL changer during the mid-60s pa, kasabay ng Thorens 124)

Kulapong,
Kung green wire ang problema mo, dapat maayos ang sound ng left channel at no sound, or hum, ang right channel. Kasi yung green wire ay ground ng right channel. Pwede mong gawin siguro kung hindi maso-solda dahil naputol sa puno ng adaptor/cartridge holder (na fixed), talupan mo ng konti yung green wire na putol, tapos isaksak mo sa shaft ng adaptor. Kung properly installed na siya, i-play mo at kung maayos na ang sound (complete contact of the connectors), lagyan mo ng glue yung green wire shaft para fixed na rin sya. Sayang kasi kung hindi mo magagamit yan. Suspetsa ko, talagang ginawa ng Dual/Ortofon na integrated yan.

kulapong · « **Reply #23 on:** Jul 03, 2009 at 12:12 AM »

not possble na insert lang ung green cable, kaya medyo pinilit ko na...ayun sira!
goodbye to analog!! he he he

Sa lahat po na nagbigay ng suggestions, maraming maraming salamat!

think i need to go back to digital

sandawa · « **Reply #24 on:** Jul 03, 2009 at 08:27 AM »

Sayang yan. Hindi ko mai-post previously dahil baka mahal mo pa yang phono mo, pero yan ang dahilan bakit bumagsak ang Dual. Nagtipid, nag-plastic para maka-compete sa low-cost but reliable Japanese TTs, especially from Technics that flooded Europe in the '80s. Actually, Technics outsold all major European TT brands combined in UK for years.

Dual, after that series, returned to wood and steel later and it regained its market but only in Europe, kasi nagsara na yung United Audio, Dual's sole distributor in the US. Tapos nalugi na ng tuluyan when the market shifted to CDs, low-cost PCs, and AV (home theatre) systems.

Ang alam ko the Dual brand's fate went the same route as Sansui's. Ibenenta as badge to Chinese manufacturers who need recognizable names to stick on their equipment.

bass_nut · « **Reply #25 on:** Jul 03, 2009 at 08:51 AM »

Quote from: kulapong on Jul 03, 2009 at 12:12 AM

not possble na insert lang ung green cable, kaya medyo pinilit ko na...ayun sira!
goodbye to analog!! he he he

Sa lahat po na nagbigay ng suggestions, maraming maraming salamat!

think i need to go back to digital

yikes !!! sayang yan sir kulapong .. meron tayo mga experts dito sa PinoyDVD.. baka sir pwede pang remedyuhan

oweidah · « **Reply #26 on:** Jul 03, 2009 at 09:13 AM »

Quote from: bass_nut on Jul 03, 2009 at 08:51 AM

yikes !!! sayang yan sir kulapong .. meron tayo mga experts dito sa PinoyDVD.. baka sir pwede pang remedyuhan

+1

...at baka meron din mga naghihintay na bitawan mo at bargain price

(buti na lang di ako vinyl guy!)

JoeyGS · « **Reply #27 on:** Jul 03, 2009 at 10:01 AM »

Kulapong, send a photo of the tone arm and a close up of the headshell..... we need to know if the headshell is replaceable or detacheable.

Jagner · « **Reply #28 on:** Jul 03, 2009 at 01:54 PM »

here's the link:

http://www.dual-reference.com/tableinx.htm

Looking at the picture, the particular model uses the stock ortofon cartridge supplied with the TT. That particular cartridge seems to be a clip on type.

If you check the site, it was mentioned that DUAL uses a 1/2" mount. Thus, it's probable that the headshell can be detached from the tonearm. My old Garrard Zero-100 uses a fixed headshell that has a sliding cartridge mount underneath the headshell. You can check if yours has the same mechanisim.

Next, you can actually remove the pins from the cartridge body, using a pair of long nose pliers (used in craft making). If it's very tight, just apply contact cleaner onto the pins.

sandawa · « **Reply #29 on:** Jul 03, 2009 at 06:00 PM »

Quote from: kulapong on Jul 03, 2009 at 12:12 AM

not possble na insert lang ung green cable, kaya medyo pinilit ko na...ayun sira!
goodbye to analog!! he he he

Sa lahat po na nagbigay ng suggestions, maraming maraming salamat!

think i need to go back to digital

Kulapong,

I hope my advice did not lead to the breakdown of your unit. If I were in Manila, I would have dropped by your place to help you. There are very few owners of working Dual units here in RP (I had 6 before and only 2 now) and that made your case special. I remember a long time ago, a Fil-Am based in Florida posted his problem at wiredstate and he found out all that he needed was the original Dual cartridge holder/adaptor. It may not be the end yet, you have other options:

1. Contact Audiophile (Jing de Guzman, a good man, owns that chain) and ask the staff if they could help you. If Roy is still in Audiophile Ali Mall, he will find a way to have your unit repaired. I'm sure he still has contact with the original Paco technicians.

2. If your unit's headshell is unrepairable and if the Ortofon stylus fits the OM/LM series (as shown in my cartridge above), a price of P1K would be reasonable for the stylus alone for those who own such cartridge type and have the tool to check the diamond tip's condition. Its rubber belt as well as motor should also fetch good prices for those hunting for spares.