Topic: AVR -> Power amp question

[dips15]

I have no experience with using power amps.  Since I'm on a budget, for an HT set-up, is it ok to use a 2 channel power amp and use it with only the 2 fronts and leave the center and surrounds to be powered by the AVR?  Will removing the load of the 2 fronts allow the AVR to give more power to the center and surround channels?

Any help would be appreciated.

[macdon]

In HT, about 80-90% is dialogue - so its the center speaker thats very important. Some have integrated 3ch poweramps to power all 3 front speakers, but finding a 3ch poweramp could also be difficult. You may have better chances of finding a 5ch amp than a 3ch thou.

Those who use their HT more for audio listening do invest in a 2ch poweramp for the 2 front speakers, but they will have a weaker sounding center speaker if they use it for HT.

If you're on a budget, you may explore having custom monoblock amps instead - just order more as your budget allows

[dips15]

In HT, about 80-90% is dialogue - so its the center speaker thats very important. Some have integrated 3ch poweramps to power all 3 front speakers, but finding a 3ch poweramp could also be difficult. You may have better chances of finding a 5ch amp than a 3ch thou.

Those who use their HT more for audio listening do invest in a 2ch poweramp for the 2 front speakers, but they will have a weaker sounding center speaker if they use it for HT.

If you're on a budget, you may explore having custom monoblock amps instead - just order more as your budget allows

Actually 50-50 audio/HT kasi ang gamit.  Where can we get these custom monoblock amps?  Gumagawa ba ng ganito mga DIY masters natin?

[macdon]

Actually 50-50 audio/HT kasi ang gamit.  Where can we get these custom monoblock amps?  Gumagawa ba ng ganito mga DIY masters natin?

Yes definitely Kindly PM Master Jojod

Marantz used to make those - and you can have jojod make it to look something like this:





For starters, you may elect to have 2 made, then as budget allows get a third. If in the future you want to power the rears as well (recommended), then just order more

[dips15]

Yes definitely Kindly PM Master Jojod

Marantz used to make those - and you can have jojod make it to look something like this:





For starters, you may elect to have 2 made, then as budget allows get a third. If in the future you want to power the rears as well (recommended), then just order more

Thanks... was looking at his website a couple of days ago checking if he made something like this.  Di ko napansin.

Will contact him na lang.  Any idea how much one of these will cost?  Was thinking of getting a bada 2 channel but di ko rin alam ang price.  Alam ko the 5 channel costs around 20+. 

[dips15]

BTW, in such an avr - power amp set-up, will the audio characteristics of the AVR still come out or kahit anong AVR gamitin pareho na ang tunog?

[macdon]

There are members here who uses Bada and meron din atang users thread - feel free to research.

Just ask jojod the particulars on the monoblocks - power, specs & price.

[macdon]

BTW, in such an avr - power amp set-up, will the audio characteristics of the AVR still come out or kahit anong AVR gamitin pareho na ang tunog?

Yes, its always the preamp stage (in your case the avr) that gives the characteristics - but then again, a cleaner sounding amp helps in the process.

[dips15]

Thanks for all the help.  Very much appreciatedl.

[turbine]

sir,

newbie po ako sa ht and no experience with power amp. i have a question gusto ko lang po matutunan.

1. I have a denon 3808 ang spec niya is 130w x 7 @ 8 ohms ang gamit ko lang is 5.1 so ang sabi ng ibang review pag 5 channel lang gamit mo ang power niya is around 138w @ 1% distorsion . then i'm planning to buy a rotel 1075 which is 120w x 5 @ 8ohms.  Ngayon hindi po ba pag gumamit ako ng rotel 1075 parang pinababa ko lang yung power ng amp? tama po ba ito?
http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/708denon3808/index2.html

2. Yung speakers ko po Recommended Amplifier Requirements is 40 to 120w @ 6 ohms ngayon kung gumamit ba ako ng power amp na 200W @ 8 ohm hindi ba po masama sa speaker ito because of over power naman?

maraming salamat

[mike c]

sir,

newbie po ako sa ht and no experience with power amp. i have a question gusto ko lang po matutunan.

1. I have a denon 3808 ang spec niya is 130w x 7 @ 8 ohms ang gamit ko lang is 5.1 so ang sabi ng ibang review pag 5 channel lang gamit mo ang power niya is around 138w @ 1% distorsion . then i'm planning to buy a rotel 1075 which is 120w x 5 @ 8ohms.  Ngayon hindi po ba pag gumamit ako ng rotel 1075 parang pinababa ko lang yung power ng amp? tama po ba ito?
http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/708denon3808/index2.html

2. Yung speakers ko po Recommended Amplifier Requirements is 40 to 120w @ 6 ohms ngayon kung gumamit ba ako ng power amp na 200W @ 8 ohm hindi ba po masama sa speaker ito because of over power naman?

maraming salamat

the Rotel is stabler at lower ohms than the Denon receiver. (not that you need it with 6ohm speakers)

as long as you have your receiver calibrated, there won't be any danger to your speakers.
(i use 450wpc at 8ohms amplifiers for my mains)

[blued888]

sir,

newbie po ako sa ht and no experience with power amp. i have a question gusto ko lang po matutunan.

1. I have a denon 3808 ang spec niya is 130w x 7 @ 8 ohms ang gamit ko lang is 5.1 so ang sabi ng ibang review pag 5 channel lang gamit mo ang power niya is around 138w @ 1% distorsion . then i'm planning to buy a rotel 1075 which is 120w x 5 @ 8ohms.  Ngayon hindi po ba pag gumamit ako ng rotel 1075 parang pinababa ko lang yung power ng amp? tama po ba ito?
http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/708denon3808/index2.html

Seasoned power amp users may correct me if I'm wrong.

What exactly is your goal in purchasing a separate power amplifier? Your Denon 3808 definitely has enough juice, probably even for use with 4-ohm speakers at moderately loud levels.

As far as I know, ratings for power amplifiers are "constant RMS" while for A/V receivers, they tend to be a bit variant except for HK which gives an "all channels driven" rating. For example, the RX-V663 of Yamaha is rated at 95w x 7 but in reality, it only pushes out ~40wpc when all channels are driven simultaneously.

As for the difference in sound quality in using a power amplifier, that's subjective.

2. Yung speakers ko po Recommended Amplifier Requirements is 40 to 120w @ 6 ohms ngayon kung gumamit ba ako ng power amp na 200W @ 8 ohm hindi ba po masama sa speaker ito because of over power naman?

maraming salamat

If you crank the volume to the point at which it outputs more than the 120w limit of the speaker, you will definitely see problems sooner or later. It's going to fry the circuitry inside the speakers.

[streetsmart]

sir,

newbie po ako sa ht and no experience with power amp. i have a question gusto ko lang po matutunan.

1. I have a denon 3808 ang spec niya is 130w x 7 @ 8 ohms ang gamit ko lang is 5.1 so ang sabi ng ibang review pag 5 channel lang gamit mo ang power niya is around 138w @ 1% distorsion . then i'm planning to buy a rotel 1075 which is 120w x 5 @ 8ohms.  Ngayon hindi po ba pag gumamit ako ng rotel 1075 parang pinababa ko lang yung power ng amp? tama po ba ito?
http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/708denon3808/index2.html

2. Yung speakers ko po Recommended Amplifier Requirements is 40 to 120w @ 6 ohms ngayon kung gumamit ba ako ng power amp na 200W @ 8 ohm hindi ba po masama sa speaker ito because of over power naman?

maraming salamat

I assume you are trying to get better sound by buying a power amp. The Denon 3808, however, is already pretty powerful (unless you have a huge room and you play at really loud levels). Therefore, I'm really not sure if a power amp is the best in terms of value for money.

Since you already have a very good AVR, I would say your next priorities for better sound would be:
1. Better main speakers
2. Better subwoofer (or 2 subs)
3. Room acoustic treatment
4. Sub equalizer (like the SVS AS-EQ1)
5. Power amp

[mike c]

I assume you are trying to get better sound by buying a power amp. The Denon 3808, however, is already pretty powerful (unless you have a huge room and you play at really loud levels). Therefore, I'm really not sure if a power amp is the best in terms of value for money.

very much agreed  

Since you already have a very good AVR, I would say your next priorities for better sound would be:
1. Better main speakers
2. Better subwoofer (or 2 subs)
3. Room acoustic treatment
4. Sub equalizer (like the SVS AS-EQ1)
5. Power amp

1. wag, bago lang yan.
2. good idea    (emphasis on the 2 subs part)
3. good idea too
4. very good idea.  
5. wag nga daw sabi ni sir mark.  

jk!

[turbine]

Sir MikeC, blued888, streetsmart,

thanks for the replies.

yes better sound.  and i want kung mas gaganda pa yung tunog nung mga speakers ko. 

1. Better main speakers - yes wag po muna and i think ok na yung main speakers ko.

2. Better subwoofer (or 2 subs). good idea  Wink  (emphasis on the 2 subs part) - hahaha sir mike wag muna emphasis yung 2 subs. masaya na muna ako sa isa. and still enjoying every minute of it. hehe

3. Room acoustic treatment - mukang malabo po ako dito puro salamin yung room namin. unless you guys could suggest. and i have a small room lang around 15m² lang.

4. Sub equalizer (like the SVS AS-EQ1) - ah ito pag iisipan ko muna ng mabuti. heheh

5. Power amp - ito naman po gusto ko lang malaman. kung mas gaganda or mas maging detailed yung sound na makukuha ko on the same volume. 

[Stark3]

sir,

newbie po ako sa ht and no experience with power amp. i have a question gusto ko lang po matutunan.

1. I have a denon 3808 ang spec niya is 130w x 7 @ 8 ohms ang gamit ko lang is 5.1 so ang sabi ng ibang review pag 5 channel lang gamit mo ang power niya is around 138w @ 1% distorsion . then i'm planning to buy a rotel 1075 which is 120w x 5 @ 8ohms.  Ngayon hindi po ba pag gumamit ako ng rotel 1075 parang pinababa ko lang yung power ng amp? tama po ba ito?
http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/708denon3808/index2.html

2. Yung speakers ko po Recommended Amplifier Requirements is 40 to 120w @ 6 ohms ngayon kung gumamit ba ako ng power amp na 200W @ 8 ohm hindi ba po masama sa speaker ito because of over power naman?

maraming salamat

Hmmm ... i used to be really intrigued by this idea, so I did some research on the internet. A lot of people say that it's not just the power rating, it's how clean the power you are getting. Denon 3808's rating is at .05% THD, the rotel is at 0.01% at regular levels, at 0.03% at full load.

It may be just a placebo effect, but some people say that external power amps sound louder / provide more gain than the internal amps in a receiver, even with a lower watt rating.

Placebo effects aside, the benefit good external power amps provide is that they are more capable of providing stable power for difficult to drive speakers (those with noticeable impedance swings). If your speakers are not that hard to drive, you may not notice that much of a difference.

Cheers

[streetsmart]

Sir MikeC, blued888, streetsmart,

thanks for the replies.

yes better sound.  and i want kung mas gaganda pa yung tunog nung mga speakers ko. 

1. Better main speakers - yes wag po muna and i think ok na yung main speakers ko.

2. Better subwoofer (or 2 subs). good idea  Wink  (emphasis on the 2 subs part) - hahaha sir mike wag muna emphasis yung 2 subs. masaya na muna ako sa isa. and still enjoying every minute of it. hehe

3. Room acoustic treatment - mukang malabo po ako dito puro salamin yung room namin. unless you guys could suggest. and i have a small room lang around 15m² lang.

4. Sub equalizer (like the SVS AS-EQ1) - ah ito pag iisipan ko muna ng mabuti. heheh

5. Power amp - ito naman po gusto ko lang malaman. kung mas gaganda or mas maging detailed yung sound na makukuha ko on the same volume. 

Kung ang kwarto mo ay puro salamin at wala kang acoustic treatment ... trust me, the best power amps in the world will make a very tiny difference. Sayang lang pera mo.

I suggest you research on acoustic treatment and think about how to do it for your room. It will take a longer time to do this cuz of the research you need to do, but you will spend much less money and you will have a huge improvement in your sound. Combined with Audyssey MultEQ XT in your Denon 3808, acoustic treatment will do wonders. That's what I and a lot of other people have experienced.

[Invinciible]

@sir turbine

no offense sir, but considering your room has a lot of mirrors, parang di ata sya bagay for an ht/audio room.  considering that both light and sound (or audio and video)  would be bouncing around the room.  i'm sure the audio part is immediately not good for the listening experience (reverb and resonance, etc), and i have  a feeling the visual reflections won't be helping either (as i imagine it, the reflections might prove distracting especially if you have sensitive peripheral vision)...   or are you referring to windows with glass panes?

[turbine]

sir invicible,

no offense taken. sir window glass. and i have a sliding door going to our attic. pero lahat po yun may sliding na makapal kapal na kortina po.

[Invinciible]

sir invicible,

no offense taken. sir window glass. and i have a sliding door going to our attic. pero lahat po yun may sliding na makapal kapal na kortina po.

oh in that case the curtains should help.  what fabric are they made of?  i'm no expert, but i believe  a bit of attention and creative thinking could help integrate further acoustic treatment like acoustic panels, diffusers and bass traps.

[turbine]

Sir,

hindi ko po maalala kung anung fabric siya binili namin sa larry's nag ask ako kung anung makapal na curtain dun from there pumili na kami kung anung okay at the same time pinalagyan ko din ng blackout yung na pili namin na kurtina.

[streetsmart]

Sir,

hindi ko po maalala kung anung fabric siya binili namin sa larry's nag ask ako kung anung makapal na curtain dun from there pumili na kami kung anung okay at the same time pinalagyan ko din ng blackout yung na pili namin na kurtina.

Curtains will help ... but not very much. The best is really to get rid of the glass. The next best is to put acoustic panels at the first reflection points. There is a thread here on acoustic panels which you can do DIY. Mura lang.

Then put some diffusers sa likod. Even shelves with dvd's or books will help a lot.

[turbine]

Curtains will help ... but not very much. The best is really to get rid of the glass. The next best is to put acoustic panels at the first reflection points. There is a thread here on acoustic panels which you can do DIY. Mura lang.

Then put some diffusers sa likod. Even shelves with dvd's or books will help a lot.

streetsmart,

cge titignan ko nalang po muna yung possibility na pumayag sa amin na tangalin yung mga salamin. thanks

[Nelson de Leon]

Your AVR has more than enough juice for a 15 sq m room. I've got a slightly bigger room pero sakto lang ang HTIB ko. Though i do have plans of upgrading naman to an AVR. Baka naman sir compared to your center speakers, nahihinaan kayo sa front speakers nyo, which i think is normal. Correct me mga gurus. Or baka naman maliit ang front speakers nyo. Try to invest more on room acoustic treatment before you upgrade your gears. Madalas, kahit anong ganda ng gears nyo, kung sobrang reflection, sayang lang.

[streetsmart]

Your AVR has more than enough juice for a 15 sq m room.

Try to invest more on room acoustic treatment before you upgrade your gears. Madalas, kahit anong ganda ng gears nyo, kung sobrang reflection, sayang lang.

Agree.

Super agree. Many times, its easier (and more expensive) to upgrade gears rather than improve the acoustics of the room. Yet, you often get much more value by upgrading the acoustics than buying equipment.

[turbine]

sir,

ok lang naman kung kahit hindi naman buong room naka acoustic treatment?

[mike c]

sir,

ok lang naman kung kahit hindi naman buong room naka acoustic treatment?

ok lang.  there are two main targets for acoustic treatment:

1) help with the brightness of speakers due to glass or bare walls = panels on the first reflection points
2) help with the bass of subwoofers = use panels or superchunks on the corners of the room (corners= wall to wall, wall to floor, wall to ceiling)

[Invinciible]

ok lang.  there are two main targets for acoustic treatment:

1) help with the brightness of speakers due to glass or bare walls = panels on the first reflection points
2) help with the bass of subwoofers = use panels or superchunks on the corners of the room (wall to wall, wall to floor, wall to ceiling)

it was sir mike c i consulted when i began my attempt at acoustic treatment.  followed these two rules, and the improvement was significant.  the addition of the bass traps allowed for more room for playing around with the sub settings and also produced smoother bass. 

and the addition of the panels at the first reflection points created cleaner highs and mids for me... very easy also, with this approach all you would really need to determine the optimal locations of the panels is a mirror.

[turbine]

ok sige sir pag aralan ko panu makakabitan yung room ko ng acoustic treatment.

[Nelson de Leon]

ok sige sir pag aralan ko panu makakabitan yung room ko ng acoustic treatment.

Nice move sir. You'll get signifacant gains for minimal expense. And if ever you still feel the need for an upgrade, i'm pretty sure masma-appreciate mo yun gears mo.