Author Topic: Surplus amps (Read 991059 times)

cousin skeeter · « **Reply #180 on:** Oct 20, 2003 at 03:37 PM »

Quote from: akyatbundok on Sep 26, 2003 at 11:30 AM

kung pang turntable etong onkyo 5 options sa cartridge:

characteristic nito is bright and powerful/aggressive, so it goes better with my friend's laid back wharf diamond than my bright mordaunts.

i have a sony 333ES, the sound characteristic is: tight bass & laid back treble so its a good match if your speakers are too bright.. but not a good match if you have a laid back tweeter like wharf diamond.

akyatbundok,

sir, i found an onkyo integra A-819GTR for sale here in our place and would like to know if you consider this a good amp if i wanted a separate setup for my audio? plan to buy monitor audio B2s as my speakers. thanks!

akyatbundok · « **Reply #181 on:** Oct 20, 2003 at 04:09 PM »

cousin skeeter, this is a breakdown of the Onkyo Integra releases:

GT --> GTR('82) --> RS --> RX('84) --> XX --> EX('88) --> XD('89)

the GTR was released in 1982, the RS was released immediately after, probably in 1983. i dunno how the GTR performs but im familiar with the RS.

my impressions of the RS... extended high highs & low lows but a bit lean on the mids. with a metal tweeter like MA and MS, it could sound aggressive with poor recordings. when i turn on the "softness", the sound smoothens without changing the tonal balance. i found this to be a good match with a rolled off tweeter like my previous AE speakers, but with a bright speaker.. i dunno.

i think its best if you listen to it yourself. pm me for audition pre, saan loc mo? im in ortigas. im also curious about the B2 for an audio setup, how about a deal -- if you have a friend who has a B2, bring it over and let's check if it's a good match. you can also listen to a sony ES and a sansui for comparison... deal?

cousin skeeter · « **Reply #182 on:** Oct 20, 2003 at 04:31 PM »

akyatbundok,

am nowhere near manila pre, am in one of the other islands, hehehe. anyway i found the onkyo at one of our local surplus shops. was already planning to order the hk/b2 combi from manila but if i can get enuf dough for the hk, myt settle for a surplus amp lng muna and get the b2, reason y i went around checking the surplus shops.

akyatbundok · « **Reply #183 on:** Oct 20, 2003 at 04:54 PM »

ahh... magkano benta sa inyo? siguro sa pier it would be around 4k... i think the B2 may have similar characteristics in the treble as my MS-908. matagal ko na hinde nagamit yung onkyo A-819RS eh so baka nakalimutan ko na tunog nun. pakinggan ko nga ulit and i'll post my impressions tomorrow. it was my first surplus amp that changed my plans bcoz i was so satisfied with it driving my previous speakers. for the price i got it (3.5k), i can't complain. original plan was just to use it as headphone amp but eventually it became my main amp pushing aside my receiver for audio use.

cousin skeeter · « **Reply #184 on:** Oct 20, 2003 at 05:24 PM »

akyatbundok,

i think they wer selling it for 5.5K.

akyatbundok · « **Reply #185 on:** Oct 20, 2003 at 06:13 PM »

hmmm... same price i got for the sansui. pwede pa siguro tawaran. alam mo tawag nila sa surplus?
"ji-ya-n-ku" --> junk. hehe... wait till you hear what they call a "stewardess".

original bnew price in japan gives you an idea where it is positioned in the market, whether budget/mid/hi-end. entry-level amps go for 40k yen... the onkyo is 105watts per channel at 80k yen. the sansui is 130wpc and went for 128k yen. top models can cost from 200k to 450k yen when bnew.

Note: current exchange rate... 1 peso = 2 yen.

akyatbundok · « **Reply #186 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 11:27 AM »

cousin skeeter,

I connected the onkyo integra and listened to it all night. I even watched bulletproof monk with it in my continuing "movies on 2ch" experiment. Its hard to describe how something sounds, because everything is relative to what we're familiar with. I hope this helps but i've listed down the relative tonal balance of all the amps i've used, using my mordaunt-short speakers, based on my short recollection of using it.

HIGHS
(Darker) sony -> sansui -> luxman/HT -> onkyo (Brighter)

MIDS
(Lighter) onkyo -> luxman/HT -> sansui/sony (Heavier)

BASS
(Lighter) luxman -> sony/HT -> onkyo/sansui (Heavier)

As you can see, the onkyo has strong highs & lows but slightly recessed mids. The big surprise is that with different speakers (wharfedale diamond 8.1), the mids aren't recessed at all. The diamonds have kick-ass mids at the expense of some treble detail so its a good match. In fact the onkyo+wharfedale combo sounds like sony+mordaunt. I guess that proves how important component matching could be.

Gear used:
---------------------------------------
luxman - LV-103, LV-105
onkyo - Integra A-819RS
sansui - AU-alpha707
sony - TA-F333ESX
HT - marantz SR-7300 + kenwood KM-X1000

cousin skeeter · « **Reply #187 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 11:47 AM »

akyatbundok,

thanks a lot pre! very nice review/comparison. ill audition it too but with their speakers lang muna since i dont have my B2s yet but from what your saying it sounds like a good amp.

anyway, youll know if i do get it. ill post my review also.

thanks again!

joan2 · « **Reply #188 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 11:48 AM »

akyat,
the japanese dump their home grown amps in favor of stateside amps, like mark levinsons, krell's, jeff rowlands and the likes....no such amps from japan selling at your favorite mall?

and i thought it is only us pinoys that have the touch of colonial mentality....

hey, i did my research on k405/j115, these are toshiba parts, if not available in raon we've got problems....

akyatbundok · « **Reply #189 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 12:33 PM »

sir joan2, i haven't seen levinsons or rowlands there yet, but guess what? i did see a Bose amp (yup, an amp) with a very high asking price.

thanks for the info on the power transistors.. i'll look them up at raon. i was wondering if its possible to replace the power amp section of the luxman with say the one inside the sony ES? or maybe pull out the tubed preamp section and then place it in another amp? that will make it a Frankenstein amp.

joan2 · « **Reply #190 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 12:48 PM »

akyat,
bose amps are made in japan too....if you are bold enough, we can make a frankenstein out of you luxman, maybe we can do a leach?
you can try, newport, oriental, or liamson, be carefull of deeco....

akyatbundok · « **Reply #191 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 12:52 PM »

Quote from: cousin skeeter on Oct 21, 2003 at 11:47 AM

thanks a lot pre! very nice review/comparison. ill audition it too but with their speakers lang muna since i dont have my B2s yet but from what your saying it sounds like a good amp.

pinsan skeeter, i'm not very familiar with the sound of the B2, but i do know it has a metal tweeter like my MS. i'm curious how it sounds.. does it have strong mids? i think a speaker with good mids would match the onkyo, but a bright speaker would not match very well.

im planning to get a speaker for my bedroom for pure audio use.. actually ive decided on getting the yamaha ns-1000x mini-refrigerator size speakers, but unfortunately somebody beat me to it. those are classic speakers that would have been the start of a "surplus speaker" thread (sayang!). but since i cannot get hold of them, i might consider the MA B2+stands or MS-914. meron pa bang ibang alternatives for 15k?

my dream is to have a big speaker like this diatone or this yamaha

edboy7 · « **Reply #192 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 02:38 PM »

hello akyat....alam mo meron kami dito sa office(recording studio)...nung ns-1000...for me is sounds very transparent but ofcors galing yun sa power amp namin.....qsc yung brand meron pang mixer ....i dnt know kung ss kasi wala rin volume control....and meron din kami ns-100...for near field monitoing...

akyatbundok · « **Reply #193 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 03:08 PM »

hi edboy7, saan niyo nakuha yang yamaha ns-1000? yung ns-1000X ang nakita kong binebenta, pang home consumers yata yun. aligned sa center lahat ng drivers saka walang grill yung woofer unlike yung pang studio monitor. sayang talaga, actually narinig ko yun dala ko pa mga CD's ko. ang problema ko lang noon ay kung paano dadalhin pauwi sa taxi since magisa lang ako.

yamaha ns-1000 is in stereophile's 100 most important products in audio history.. it's #91.

joan2 · « **Reply #194 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 04:49 PM »

akyat,

Quote

yamaha ns-1000 is in stereophile's 100 most important products in audio history.. it's #91.

can you please post the links i'm curious to see it...

akyatbundok · « **Reply #195 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 05:13 PM »

joan2, here's the link:

http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?709

im game for the frankenstein amp idea... i'll look for the mosfets this weekend, and if i can't find them, i'll bring it for surgery.

i read up on the leach amp; seems like a bullseye matchup. looking at the luxman's internal parts, it would seem that the power supply isn't as hefty & powerful as the other amps, which may account for the lackluster bass performance. but its strength is in clarity, refinement & detail. if i can keep this refinement and add the sony's tight/muscular bass, i would be very happy with this amp.

will post internal pics so you can formulate a strategy. thanks sensei!

akyatbundok · « **Reply #196 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 06:57 PM »

joan2, these are the internal pics of the luxman & sony amps.

1. tube preamp - the tubes are contained in a removable housing

2. luxman internal pic - Behind the tube housing is a small circuit board with wires connecting all over the place. Circuit boards appear to be easily removable. Beside the main power transformer are 2 smaller ones that are probably used by the preamp. You can see the mosfets screwed to the back of the heatsink - 1 black and 1 green per channel.

3. sony internal pic - There seem to be enough space around the power transformer to place the tube preamp section of the luxman. I wonder if this is possible? Nothing definite yet, just thinking of the possibilities. I'm starting to feel hesitant about sacrificing the sony to get the luxman to work. Best case is still to find the right mosfets and get the luxman working like new. I found somebody who is in the same predicament with the same luxman model; he may be my best chance of finding the mosfets.

joan2 · « **Reply #197 on:** Oct 21, 2003 at 07:47 PM »

akyat,
looks like the sony has more muscle, and room to spare for a bigger traffo...the luxman is very lean, from what i see....if i can get schematics of the sony, been trying but no luck with the luxman, then we're in bussiness, what i can do is set the volage gains of both amps to be the same so thart if you decide on bi-amping it will be easy...offhand, my impression with you luxman is that the tubes drive the mosfets, that is why there are two smaller traffos in there....can you post the tube part number, i bet its a pentode or a triode operated in a single ended mode....likewise, can you post the specs for the black filter caps on both amps? thanks

edboy7 · « **Reply #198 on:** Oct 22, 2003 at 01:43 PM »

boss akyat....ns-1000 tlaga yung amin(parang buddy ref nga yung laki e...)......

..i read the link also thanks!!!!

....wala pa ako ginagamit na nila yun...hehehehe and i think its still working pero nakatambak na yata e.coz pinalitan na lahat ng genelec powered speakers.....meronn pang grill nga yun...minsan nga gusto ko ng iuwi e....hehehehehe

Happy Dads Vinyl Shop · « **Reply #199 on:** Oct 22, 2003 at 03:18 PM »

boss Akyat,

I hope light shines on our luxman's once again

good luck dyan sa gagawin mo

akyatbundok · « **Reply #200 on:** Oct 23, 2003 at 01:28 PM »

Quote from: joan2 on Oct 21, 2003 at 07:47 PM

akyat,
looks like the sony has more muscle, and room to spare for a bigger traffo...the luxman is very lean, from what i see....if i can get schematics of the sony, been trying but no luck with the luxman, then we're in bussiness, what i can do is set the volage gains of both amps to be the same so thart if you decide on bi-amping it will be easy...offhand, my impression with you luxman is that the tubes drive the mosfets, that is why there are two smaller traffos in there....can you post the tube part number, i bet its a pentode or a triode operated in a single ended mode....likewise, can you post the specs for the black filter caps on both amps? thanks

joan2, the tubes on the luxman are marked with:

Alpine/Luxman
6FQ7 6CG7 USA

the 2 filter caps are labelled "ELNA 71V 10,000uF".

on the sony there are 4 caps labelled "Nichicon negative black" - 2 are smaller then the other 2. i wasn't able to write down the specs but in the niji website it says the Class A step has a total of 13,400uF and the power step has a total of 25,000uF.

I took out the tube housing on the luxman to confirm if they did separate the tube preamp section. No they didn't - the tubes are directly wired to the main board. I guess when they mean "integrated amp", they really mean it. The small PCB's behind the tube housing are just for the tone controls and the pre-heating. You're right about the compromises that manufacturers have to make - not all design decisions are based on optimizing the layout. The tubes may have been placed on the faceplate just so that users can see them. Long cables connect the pins to the mainboard, so they might as well could have just placed the tube socket on the mainboard.

tryaudio, yeah me too thanks! right now its still doing a good job as my current headphone amp.

edboy7, itakas na natin yan ns-1000 niyo sayang lang kung nakatambak.

nels76 · « **Reply #201 on:** Oct 23, 2003 at 01:50 PM »

Akyat,

Just became curious reading that word "ELNA" from your post.
Is that a manufacturer of components for amps?

Because I read from a new line of Receiver from a Certain Brand saying "equipped with ELNA CHEMICAL CONDENSER" what's that about?

joan2 · « **Reply #202 on:** Oct 23, 2003 at 02:30 PM »

"ELNA" ,Rubycon, Nichicon, Omats, Panasonic, are brand names of electrolytic capacitors used with ss amps....

akyat,
yes, the tubes are medium mu twin triodes, we'll know for sure what they are there for when i got a chance to look at it.....

as promised, here is a simple tweak for those surplus amps rated for 100volts ac, just wire in an MOV (metal oxide varistors) rated for 120 volts ac accross the ac line, right after the fuse, and before the power on switch
so that in the event the unit is plugged into the 220volt outlet without the stepdown transformer, the fuse will blow, even beofre you turn on the unit. it will be much easier to replace fuses than have your unit repaired, as we all know, replacement parts for those units are hard to come by as many of them are no longer in production. as a bonus, the mov's will also act as hash and transient spikes suppressor since they can absord short duration line garbage!!! these mov's are no bigger that a 25centavo coin and comes with two leads...haven't checked availability at raon, cause i ussually get mine from surplus equipment.....

av_phile · « **Reply #203 on:** Oct 23, 2003 at 02:57 PM »

Hi Joan2

How can i safely use my 110-120vac wall outlet to power a future surplus amp rated at 100v only? Thanks.

joan2 · « **Reply #204 on:** Oct 23, 2003 at 04:46 PM »

Quote from: av_phile on Oct 23, 2003 at 02:57 PM

Hi Joan2

How can i safely use my 110-120vac wall outlet to power a future surplus amp rated at 100v only? Thanks.

depends on your japanese unit, the rails go up as the ac line voltage go up, i will be bold use it but only after i have examined the insides of the amps and find out how much the capacitors can withstand a higher voltage, 110 volts should be fine but at 120, you are on the brink already....

akyatbundok · « **Reply #205 on:** Oct 26, 2003 at 01:47 PM »

I just came from the pier shopping mall.. nothing much to excite the SARS syndrome, except.. something that i've been contemplating for a long time - surplus speakers!! Ive always wanted to have an all-junk setup, but the weak link has always been the speakers. There are some really bad sounding speakers over there. When i read about 45mm's Yamaha ns-1000, i realized that its possible for an all-junk audio setup to beat the pants out of an all-new audio setup. So im thinking of putting up a combo that will beat my very own MS Declaration flagship speakers. Is it possible? We'll see... i saw a couple of paper-coned 70's mini-refs. Nahhh... they sound awful. There's a couple of Victor speakers that look nice. Victor (JVC) has a pretty good history in Japan. If i find one with the word "Spirit" etched on the front baffle, i would get excited. But not today... there were only entry level stuff. Then i saw an Onkyo in pretty bad condition. The word "Scepter" would have been the equivalent magic word for the Onkyo brand, but i haven't seen one yet. Oh well... no fish today.

joan2 · « **Reply #206 on:** Oct 26, 2003 at 01:59 PM »

akyat,
if you want surplus speakers, i saw one shop in cubao, selling american surplus goods...it is very near the former COD dept. store, and along the road are surplus preamps/amps..i evern saw a marantz unit there...nice

akyatbundok · « **Reply #207 on:** Oct 26, 2003 at 02:09 PM »

hey sir joan2, thanks for the tip. i was also at raon yesterday looking for the K405/J115 mosfets. i did find the replacement you mentioned. the IRF640 costs only P40... its a good sign for my luxman.

i have a question. this probably belongs to the ss thread, but it concerns surplus amps too.

do amplifier parts degrade over time? if yes, does it affect the sound?

joan2 · « **Reply #208 on:** Oct 26, 2003 at 06:36 PM »

akyat,
over time, dust accumulates on our amps, so this makes our amps a bit hotter, then the capacitors dry up, so this has an effect, loss of volume.....replacing them can restore an ailing amp back to health....cleaning also helps....you have to find the irf9640, its a p-channel type...irf640 can be used to make zen amps.....

akyatbundok · « **Reply #209 on:** Oct 27, 2003 at 05:02 PM »

sir joan2, ok i'll go look for the irf9640... the supplier that had the irf640 did not have it.

i also got confirmation from my friend's supplier that the luxman's 2SK405 and 2SJ115 are already discontinued. the replacement products are the 2SK1529 and the 2SJ200 also from Toshiba. he sent me the spec sheets in PDF format.

the only problem is: i dont think my friend could order just the 8 pcs i need for 2 amps.. when they order parts, they order in the million pcs (its a manufacturing plant).