PinoyDVD: The Pinoy Digital Video & Devices Community
High-Def => General HD Discussion => Topic started by: comitatus on Nov 08, 2010 at 12:06 AM
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just very recently, i purchased two home theatre systems. one for me and the other for my husband...i've been looking at our receivers lately and saw that they offer dolby true hd and sometimes (now more frequent) dts master audio!
can someone be kind enough to share why one format is better than the other? most sites floating around the net seem to be way too techy for me...
being more conscious of sound now, looking at my r2 dvd collection i can see dolby digi, and sometimes dts...is the later better than the former?
thanks thanks
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...i've been looking at our receivers lately and saw that they offer dolby true hd and sometimes (now more frequent) dts master audio!
can someone be kind enough to share why one format is better than the other? most sites floating around the net seem to be way too techy for me...
Don't worry about Dolby TrueHD vs. DTS-HD MA. Their sound will be virtually indistinguishable from each other.
Home Entertainment Magazine found Dolby TrueHD to be slightly closer to the original PCM than DTS-HD MA. But since there was hardly any difference detected while using extremely high-end equipment, it's doubtful if any difference at all would be detected in the average home system.
http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby_TrueHD_DTS-MA_versus_Uncompressed_PCM?page=0%2C0
being more conscious of sound now, looking at my r2 dvd collection i can see dolby digi, and sometimes dts...is the later better than the former?
For the legacy codecs, there's no clear answer. A few prefer Dolby, but most prefer DTS.
Personally, I prefer Dolby because I hear much deeper bass on it. Specs-wise, DTS has problems from 90Hz and lower; and from 15kHhz and up.
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i do prefer dolby for the same reason! mas full yung sound nya maybe bec nga they tend to be more "bassy"...this article i saw looks like people prefer dts master though...
http://www.blu-raystats.com/NewsLog/2010/01/15/dts-hd-master-audio-becoming-the-blu-ray-standard/
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For me DTS wins hands down. Always has, even in the day of DVD.
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i do prefer dolby for the same reason! mas full yung sound nya maybe bec nga they tend to be more "bassy"...this article i saw looks like people prefer dts master though...
http://www.blu-raystats.com/NewsLog/2010/01/15/dts-hd-master-audio-becoming-the-blu-ray-standard/
That article discusses high-resolution audio only, not the standard audio on SD-DVD.
As for high-resolution audio, there should not be any sonic difference between Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA, because both are lossless audio formats.
But note that while both are "lossless", both of them are still "compressed". The real uncompressed audio is the PCM audio option, the same file type used on music CDs.
There are 2 types of audio compression: (a) Lossless compression, and (b) Lossy compression.
(a) Lossless compression - Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are lossless compression files. There should be no sonic difference between the two, since the compressed file is reconstructed back into the original data, without any loss.
It's similar to a Word document that's compressed into a WinZip file. Once the Zip file is uncompressed, you get the exact same Word document, without any data loss.
(b) Lossy compression - The standard Dolby Digital and DTS are lossy compression files, the type found on standard DVD. The encoder figures out which audio data would not be heard by the average listener, discards the unnecessary data that would be inaudible to the listener anyway, then compresses the remaining file. When the compressed file is reconstructed, the resulting file is different from the original because of the prior removal of some data.
Since the legacy Dolby and DTS lossy codecs use different algorithms, there should be a sonic difference between the two.
This difference prompted a ferocious Dolby vs DTS debate. I took the Dolby side:
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,1807.msg165281.html#msg165281
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,47488.msg637368.html#msg637368
My view is that as far as the old codecs are concerned, Dolby is the better, more efficient codec. It produces a smaller compressed file, while retaining flat response.
In contrast, DTS produces a bigger file yet still can't produce flat response at the higher and lower ends of the frequency spectrum. To compensate for this deficiency, DTS intentionally boosts its volume level to fool the listener into believing that DTS is "better" simply because it's louder.
But these days, the Dolby vs DTS issue is yesterday's news. Plasma vs LCD na ngayon ang issue ... :D
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my ears say -- DTS is louder ;D
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There is this format I see called "Uncompressed PCM 5.1", peeps over at Blu-Ray forums say it's the best...
Any comments on this one?
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Any comments on this one?
It's not true.
Enthusiasts tend to pretend to have "golden ears", when all they're doing is choosing the format with the higher bitrate, then claiming that it sounds better ;).
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I've also read on some sites PCM is better. Casino royale had uncompressed pcm on the orig release. It then had true hd on its collector's edition release. Here is the audio review in hidefdigest. It's just minor, it comes nga down to our "golden eyes" if we have it ;D
From High def digest
While I may have qualms about this disc's video transfer, it is far harder to find fault with the audio. Sony has ditched the uncompressed PCM 5.1 Surround track of the original "Casino Royale' Blu-ray and replaced it with a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 Surround option (48kHz/24-bit). The switcheroo doesn't result in any appreciable drop-off in quality, though after a series of very anal comparisons, I can say I would probably give the slightest of edges to the PCM -- but only the slightest.
First, the good stuff. This is a James Bond film, so we expect nothing less than gangbusters sound design, and sure enough we get it. The filmmaking team behind the franchise know that their bread and butter is the kind of action that sets trends, and there are some back-to-basics, non-CGI sequences here that are truly death-defying. The sonic highlights in 'Casino Royale' are by far the early Madagascar foot chase, the airport interception, and the climactic collapse of the building in Venice. Each provides first-rate demo material. Dynamic range is wide and powerful. Deep bass rumbles (just listen to that airplane take off -- it's a stunner). And the attention to fine detail to discrete effects is flawless. Imaging between channels excels and is near-transparent, with a very effective wall of sound created during the most intense action moments. When the bullets fly, 'Casino Royale' doesn't disappoint.
The film's less bombastic moments also hold up. 'Casino Royale' is a long film, and quite heavy on the dialogue. I like the use of subtle ambiance at times -- listen for the soft lull of crickets in the rears as Bond seduces Solange early on -- and the typically lush Bond score can also nicely swell up when needed. Dialogue is nicely balanced, with only Daniel Craig's most mumbled lines needing any assist in volume matching. I suppose my only nitpick is a desire for a little more creativity in the sound design (I had hoped for something cooler in terms of sound effects on the opening, famous "gun barrel" shot), but this is a minor quibble.
As far as comparing the PCM and TrueHD tracks, I whipped out my old 'Casino Royale' Blu-ray, and picked three scenes (the opening credit sequence with the Chris Cornell title tune, the foot chase and the airport interception), and did some back-to-back comparisons. After flipping between the two Blu-rays about ten times, I would give a very slight thumbs up to the PCM in terms of low bass. The airport sequence in particular felt ever-so-slightly more robust in the bottom on the PCM than the TrueHD. I also thought the title song sounded somewhat wider in the mid-range on the PCM, at least when I had the sound blasting at a very high volume. In all honestly, however, these results reveal such a negligible difference it could just as easily be subjective hearing. If nothing else, the two Blu-ray versions of 'Casino Royale' will provide nothing but more fodder for the ongoing PCM vs. TrueHD debate.
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To confuse you guys even more, ;D Face off is another one. They came out with an imported version with pcm, which is the one pala they sell here in Astro. I was so tempted to get it bec. I just have the hddvd version. Hmm isip isip ;D However, I read also in hidefdigest its give and take. That's why up to now I haven't upgraded to the blu version
Here it is:
The uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround mix on this Blu-ray import edition of 'Face/Off' is quite comparable to the DTS ES 6.1 track on the domestic HD DVD. There are some differences, but the give-and-take ultimately cancel eachother out. While the PCM mix boasts a higher audio bitrate and at first blush sounded stronger, after some volume matching, the DTS track revealed similar qualities. The Blu-ray mix may boast a slight boost in clarity, but it loses some subtlety in rear transparency and immersion with the loss of 6.1 support. In my mind, it all evens out, and whichever way you slice it, the audio on both discs is absolute tour de force.
Like the DTS track on the HD DVD, the Blu-ray PCM mix uses intense dynamics to augment the on-screen insanity -- bass tones are particularly impressive and regularly sent rumbles and pulses stampeding through my home theater. LFE support hits with a palpable punch and gunfire is appropriately blaring. Likewise, treble whines are reliable, solid, and crisp. I could hear the heavy breathing of nervous background characters, the varied tip tap of footsteps on an assortment of flooring, and each tinkle of falling glass. The sound designers clearly worked overtime on this one and both tracks showcase their efforts.
'Face/Off' isn't a quiet movie by any stretch of the imagination, but I was happy to find that the chaotic soundscape never muffled important lines or key effects. More importantly, the soundfield genuinely transports the listener into the film. Directionality is amazing and sounds whiz and streak between the channels naturally. I can't praise the PCM track enough -- it isn't just an impressive catalog mix, it goes toe-to-toe with any of the top tier tracks available on Blu-ray.
(Note that Disney also includes a standard Dolby Digital 5.1 surround track on this Blu-ray import, but I found it didn't quite match up to the boomier Dolby Digital Plus mix on the HD DVD.)
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I've also read on some sites PCM is better. Casino royale had uncompressed pcm on the orig release. It then had true hd on its collector's edition release. Here is the audio review in hidefdigest. It's just minor, it comes nga down to our "golden eyes" if we have it ;D
I wouldn't immediately conclude that golden ears is what it comes down to. In fact, it really doesn't come down to anything if no DBT (double-blind test) was used. The author didn't even mention if any level-matching was performed for his comparison.
No DBT, no golden ears. That's the way I see it.
But in fairness to the author, he never claimed to have good ears, and he did admit that his comparison was subjective:
"... In all honestly, however, these results reveal such a negligible difference it could just as easily be subjective hearing." http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1693/casinoroyale_ce.html
Don't be confused. Study the declarations about PCM more closely and you'll find that there's really nothing confusing there.
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one quick question...
i bought a number of dragon ball z (hehehe) blu-rays for myself and for the season...since i listen to the original japanese tracks i noticed na dolby 1.0 lang siya, over the english tracks which is truehd 5.1...
ano yun? is dolby 1.0 mono??? bakit ganun? i thought it's blu-ray is supposed to give hd sound? looks like i have to check the sound format from here on... ???
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Blu-ray gives us high-res sound, as long there's a high-res soundtrack available.
Unfortunately, if a low-budget 1990s anime's original soundtrack only has a mono version, the original soundtrack on the Blu-ray will also be mono.
If they attempt to remix a mono soundtrack, the separate tracks must be availabe to the engineers. If separate tracks are not available, a fake multichannel remix would sound worse than the original mono, so it would be better to just remaster in mono.
On your receiver, try a "mono movie" setting. You'll get the mono sound on all 5.1 speakers, plus some reverb that simulates a movie theater. Maganda rin naman ang sound. The applied reverb won't sound fake because it's very subtle, not overdone.
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I really dont know if this will be OT or not, but are these HD sound formats captured in HD movie files, or only the normal lossy dts or dolby formats? thanks. ::)
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I really dont know if this will be OT or not, but are these HD sound formats captured in HD movie files, or only the normal lossy dts or dolby formats? thanks. ::)
YES on your first question - select encoders do that even on MKVS; for pure BD files, definitely yes
MOSTLY on your 2nd question.
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follow up bro clondalkin, -- so if i have a receiver than can decode these HD formats, i will enjoy these HD audio from my NMT? thanks ;D
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follow up bro clondalkin, -- so if i have a receiver than can decode these HD formats, i will enjoy these HD audio from my NMT? thanks ;D
The A200 already indicates DTS-HD or TrueHD through the content info but my AVR is 20th century, so it can only pick-out the DTS core (1.5mbps) and DD5.1 respectively. I havent actually heard HD audio sound coming out from the A200. "Look only but no hear" bale..hehehe. Try to ask the member Gaol as his set-up is capable of confirming this.
A friend member who uses the Xtreamer Pro has informed me that HD audio is indeed coming out using similar files.
Mede8er 500x' latest FW that will enable HD audio decoding is still iffy - but it should be coming.
Mede8er 300X is claimed to be capable of passing through HD audio out of the box...daw.
The Tvix has always been capable of it.
If I remember correctly, my previous Egreat31B was HD audio capable as well - but it had other issues.
I dont know about the other makes.
What is your player?
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Bro I am using the egreat M34a. ;)
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Bro I am using the egreat M34a. ;)
Ask Ditoy Eagle. ;)
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Since, I haven't watched in a theatre since Armageddon (Bruce Willis). That was like 12 years ago, I'm just wondering what sound format do films use now? DolbyTrueHD, DTS-HDMA, or PCM? Or Something else?
Thanks guys.
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... I'm just wondering what sound format do films use now? DolbyTrueHD, DTS-HDMA, or PCM? Or Something else?
DolbyTrueHD, DTS-HDMA and PCM are home theater formats, found on Blu-ray. 35mm film uses Dolby Digital 320kbps, DTS 1103kbps and/or SDDS. Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks are located on the edge of the film.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/35mm_film_audio_macro.jpg/200px-35mm_film_audio_macro.jpg)
Edge of a 35mm print film with "quad track"
(Dolby, DTS time code, analog, & SDDS)
SDDS is the blue area to the left of the sprocket holes; Dolby Digital is the gray area between the sprocket holes (with a "Double-D" logo), analog sound is the two white waveforms to the right of the sprocket holes, and DTS is the dashed line on the far right.
SDDS ("Sony Dynamic Digital Sound") is a sound format by Sony for cinema. It is found on film only; no home theater video uses it.
DTS for film is actually found on a separate CD-ROM. The data on the film itself is only a time stamp, which determines synchronization of the picture with the CD's sound.
Digital cinema uses uncompressed PCM. IMAX also uses uncompressed PCM.
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I also prefer Dolby over DTS, because of its more realistic oomph! DTS is all about loudness... :D
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@barrister
Thanks! Since these new home HD sound formats claim "losslessness", could we say that they are identical to what we hear in theatres?
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Yes, BD lossless Dolby and DTS should sound the same as the digital cinema uncompresssed audio. The only observable differences would be those caused by differences in equipment and room acoustics. BD's Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are compressed formats, but they are lossless formats. When played back, the compressed data is reconstructed back into the original data, without any loss.
Lossless data compression is a class of data compression algorithms that allows the exact original data to be reconstructed from the compressed data. In contrast, lossy data compression only allows an approximation of the original data to be reconstructed, with the objective of producing a much smaller compressed file.
For example, a document can be compressed into a Zip file to produce a small compressed file. It's lossless because once the Zip file is opened, the exact same document is reconstructed without any data loss. In contrast, a music CD can be compressed into an MP3 file, but the resulting file is lossy, because some data is discarded during compression.
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@barrister
Great! Now here comes the sad part (at least for my part), I've been going over my wife's HT system, and I can't distinguish between Dolby 5.1 and Dolby TrueHD at a blind test...
Something wrong with my ear? What difference/s am I to watch out for or expect?
Many thanks partner you're a walking tech manual :)
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Many thanks partner you're a walking tech manual :)
:D Hindi naman sir ... google lang yan ... ;)
... Now here comes the sad part (at least for my part), I've been going over my wife's HT system, and I can't distinguish between Dolby 5.1 and Dolby TrueHD at a blind test...
Something wrong with my ear? What difference/s am I to watch out for or expect?
I haven't had any experience with the new sound formats, actually. My first receiver with lossless audio capability is still in the box ... I just bought it this afternoon ... ;D But I really don't expect the difference to be appreciable.
However, professional reviewers say there's a very slight improvement in "presence" (a feeling that you're actually in the movie scene) and ambience. But they say the improvement is so slight that you'll gain respect for the efficiency by which the lossy formats compressed the audio data, since the comparison will give you a chance to hear how good the old formats sounded despite the very small data files they used.
I wouldn't worry about it. My old receiver was fine without the new audio formats, actually. I upgraded it only because my regular upgrade cycle came along, but it was not because of any dissatisfaction with the sound.
I remember when the early Blu-ray adopters of pinoydvd had a blind test between the new lossless and the old lossy formats. To everyone's surprise, most of them preferred the old lossy Dolby and DTS.
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@barrister
Cool! What did you buy? When will you set it up? Will you do it today? Can you give a run down of how it performed? What are good audio test discs?
Sorry for the barrage of questions, I'm going out for the night and I hope (short of demand) that your set up is done when I get back...
;D ;D ;D
Just joking! Just be quick about it! Again another joke! Merry Christmas buddy ;)
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:D :D :D
It's a Yamaha 767: http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,56991.msg1320793.html#msg1320793
Sorry sir, I don't think I can set it up during the holiday season. I'm going to need another HDMI cable to set it up properly, and I don't want to go through traffic hell again just for a lousy cable ... :D ... But I'll tell you about it when I get the chance to set it up and test it.
In fact, I really didn't want to go receiver-shopping this close to Christmas ... who wants to put up with the traffic? The only reason why I bought it was because I already had to go to National Bookstore Shangrila to buy Justin Bieber concert tickets for my nieces ... :D (I didn't want to risk the tickets getting sold out before I got there, yari ako sa mga pamangkin), so I thought, why don't I go to the audio shops in Shang and buy the receiver while I'm there.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and the family!
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@barrister
Leaving a sealed box containing an important piece of electronic entertainment device unopened and uninstalled over the the holiday!!!
What sort of human being is this?!?!? What crime?!?!? What infamy!!!
You sir, have mastered the art of self control!
;D ;D ;D
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I remember when the early Blu-ray adopters of pinoydvd had a blind test between the new lossless and the old lossy formats. To everyone's surprise, most of them preferred the old lossy Dolby and DTS.
was in this blind test. out of almost 30 who attended, only two members got the golden ears, meaning, they got 5 out of 5 test materials on which ones are playing hd audio and which ones are playing classic (lossy) dd or dts format.
i think for materials such as concerts or musicals, this is where the hd audio might render itself more evident. but for slambang movies, i dont think you will really hear any major difference. except for adopters to be very happy that their receivers are capable of showing the "dts-ma or tru hd" on the receiver's lcd screen. i know, im one of them. :D
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was in this blind test. out of almost 30 who attended, only two members got the golden ears, meaning, they got 5 out of 5 test materials on which ones are playing hd audio and which ones are playing classic (lossy) dd or dts format.
i think for materials such as concerts or musicals, this is where the hd audio might render itself more evident. but for slambang movies, i dont think you will really hear any major difference. except for adopters to be very happy that their receivers are capable of showing the "dts-ma or tru hd" on the receiver's lcd screen. i know, im one of them. :D
Count my wife in! I remember she could not sleep til those DTS-MA and DolbyTrueHd lit up on the receiver and there I was saying..."Hon, will something magical spring out when we get it right"... ;)
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Count my wife in! I remember she could not sleep til those DTS-MA and DolbyTrueHd lit up on the receiver and there I was saying..."Hon, will something magical spring out when we get it right"... ;)
hahaha, i am sure anybody whose about to read this would laugh just like me, i have read countless of questions regarding this for the past years already. but when you ask someone who has already correctly set it up what the difference is, they usually cant? :D
anyway, why buy the equipments if you cant have it working properly. :D
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i think for materials such as concerts or musicals, this is where the hd audio might render itself more evident. but for slambang movies, i dont think you will really hear any major difference. except for adopters to be very happy that their receivers are capable of showing the "dts-ma or tru hd" on the receiver's lcd screen. i know, im one of them. :D
Agree 1000% that is why i bought the onkyo 608.. now i am not yet 100% satisfied because that DTS-tru hd has yet to appear on my receiver despite buying a new 1.3b hdmi cable. ::)
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Agree 1000% that is why i bought the onkyo 608.. now i am not yet 100% satisfied because that DTS-tru hd has yet to appear on my receiver despite buying a new 1.3b hdmi cable. ::)
hi sir jerix,
please ensure the following:
on player - make sure audio is set to bitstream to receiver
on receiver - make sure hdmi input will accept both both video and audio (some of the inputs are defaulted to use the optical inputs for audio).
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ill try again bro -- thanks!!
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@iiinas or barrister or anyone :D
My wife and I spent the New Years eve debating on whether we should "bitsream" our PS3 or leave it to my preferred Linear PCM. At Linear PCM the AVR does not light up the the DD/DD-TrueHD/DTS and DTS-HD Master, but I could hear all the Blu-Ray options sound effects which are absent when you set them to bitstream.
I gave way because she threatened not to give me the New Year evening special if I didn't stand down ;) Anyway, the evening was great and now that the smoke is clear I'd like to clarify some issues which require expert opinion/s
-When set to Linear PCM, the PS3 will do the decoding of the sound instead of the AVR. Since, the PS3 does the job it should also take the credit. Who does a better job at decoding anyway? The player or the AVR?
-Linear PCM is supposed to be uncompressed lossless, while dd-truehd and dts-hdma are also lossless but compressed. Shouldn't Linear PCM have an advantage here?
Thanks guys :)
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@iiinas or barrister or anyone :D
My wife and I spent the New Years eve debating on whether we should "bitsream" our PS3 or leave it to my preferred Linear PCM. At Linear PCM the AVR does not light up the the DD/DD-TrueHD/DTS and DTS-HD Master, but I could hear all the Blu-Ray options sound effects which are absent when you set them to bitstream.
I gave way because she threatened not to give me the New Year evening special if I didn't stand down ;) Anyway, the evening was great and now that the smoke is clear I'd like to clarify some issues which require expert opinion/s
-When set to Linear PCM, the PS3 will do the decoding of the sound instead of the AVR. Since, the PS3 does the job it should also take the credit. Who does a better job at decoding anyway? The player or the AVR?
-Linear PCM is supposed to be uncompressed lossless, while dd-truehd and dts-hdma are also lossless but compressed. Shouldn't Linear PCM have an advantage here?
Thanks guys :)
really depends on the player and receiver.
based on reviews, they say the ps3 does pretty good in decoding the hd audio material, that having said. the next thing to ask is will it be better than my receiver's decoding capabilities. imho, mid to high end receivers might have the advantage here since most of these models utilizes better dacs and as a result might output a better sounding track than the ps3.
so my answer is really if you think for now the better sounding option is the ps3 then i suggest you use that.
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really depends on the player and receiver.
based on reviews, they say the ps3 does pretty good in decoding the hd audio material, that having said. the next thing to ask is will it be better than my receiver's decoding capabilities. imho, mid to high end receivers might have the advantage here since most of these models utilizes better dacs and as a result might output a better sounding track than the ps3.
so my answer is really if you think for now the better sounding option is the ps3 then i suggest you use that.
What about you boss? Do you prefer DD and DTS over Linear PCM or vice versa?
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I gave way because she threatened not to give me the New Year evening special if I didn't stand down ;)
You did the right thing, my friend ... :D
-When set to Linear PCM, the PS3 will do the decoding of the sound instead of the AVR. Since, the PS3 does the job it should also take the credit. Who does a better job at decoding anyway? The player or the AVR?
-Linear PCM is supposed to be uncompressed lossless, while dd-truehd and dts-hdma are also lossless but compressed. Shouldn't Linear PCM have an advantage here?
Theoretically, I think they're the same because it's always going to be in PCM.
When the player does the decoding, the compressed data is converted by the player into PCM, then the PCM is sent to the receiver. This is a lossless process, meaning that when the compressed data is uncompressed into PCM, you get the original data again, without loss.
When the player streams the compressed data to the receiver, the receiver uncompresses the bitstream to PCM. This is also a lossless process, where the receiver uncompresses the data back into PCM, without loss.
So either way, the compressed stream will have to be converted to PCM, whether the uncompression is done by the player or by the receiver.
If you prefer to use player-uncompressed PCM so you can have access to all interactive program material, then in-player decoding is the option for you.
However, there's no basis for believing that you're getting better audio by letting the player do the decoding. The data will still have to be converted to PCM whichever way you go.
As for which chipset is better, "Sir Terrence" of bluray.com has this to say:
"There is no super duper decoding chips in receivers. Generally the same decoding chipset you see in the player is the same as you see in the receiver. The conversion process in the player and the receiver is the same(conversion to PCM). Both are lossless."
http://forum.blu-ray.com/home-theater-general-discussion/32961-player-decoding-receiver-decoding-question.html#post535303
http://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-discussion/31894-ask-questions-audio-insider-sir-terrence.html
That guy is an industry insider. He mixes sound for BD masters.
imho, mid to high end receivers might have the advantage here since most of these models utilizes better dacs and as a result might output a better sounding track than the ps3.
The DAC is different. That involves digital-to-analog conversion. The digital data is converted to analog before it can be amplified.
If the compressed signal is bitstreamed by the player to the receiver, the receiver converts the signal to PCM. The PCM signal is still digital. The receiver then uses its DAC to convert the digital PCM to analog, then the analog signal is amplified.
If the player does the conversion to PCM, the player sends the PCM to the receiver, which is still digital. Then the receiver uses its DAC to convert the digital PCM to analog for amplification.
In either case, the receiver already has the same digital PCM file before it applies its DAC for analog conversion. So either way, you end up with the same thing.
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What about you boss? Do you prefer DD and DTS over Linear PCM or vice versa?
i prefer my receiver's decoding.
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The A200 already indicates DTS-HD or TrueHD through the content info but my AVR is 20th century, so it can only pick-out the DTS core (1.5mbps) and DD5.1 respectively. I havent actually heard HD audio sound coming out from the A200. "Look only but no hear" bale..hehehe. Try to ask the member Gaol as his set-up is capable of confirming this.
Confirmed. The Denon AVR4310 displays the HD audio format when sent over by the A200 although I can't think of specific examples right now. :)
really depends on the player and receiver.
based on reviews, they say the ps3 does pretty good in decoding the hd audio material, that having said. the next thing to ask is will it be better than my receiver's decoding capabilities. imho, mid to high end receivers might have the advantage here since most of these models utilizes better dacs and as a result might output a better sounding track than the ps3.
so my answer is really if you think for now the better sounding option is the ps3 then i suggest you use that.
I haven't gone through the effort of comparing, but here is what I've observed: the soundtrack of Grand Turismo 5 sounds really fantastic! It's sent over by the PS3 as multi-channel (7.1) PCM.
For BD movies using the PS3, I've set it to bitstream (to see the HD audio format shown on the receiver mainly too hehe) and it sounds great too. ;D
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@barrister
Great info as usual! Ok, let me see if my not too bright brain "decoded" your info correctly. It does not matter if the player or the AVR does the decoding because at points end, it all comes out as PCM. So, if the end product is the same from eggs to duck, why then is there a need to have multiple ways of doing it? And what then, is the essence of having 2 rival HD sound formats like DD-TrueHD and DTS-HDMA? (Pretty idiotic questions out of my igloo)
I'm new to all these things, but for someone who never appreciated sound systems - What I'm hearing from an entry level HTIB (Onkyo S3300) is really something that is pleasing to my ears. Looks like a new venture or quest is on the way.
I'm excited ;)
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So, if the end product is the same from eggs to duck, why then is there a need to have multiple ways of doing it? And what then, is the essence of having 2 rival HD sound formats like DD-TrueHD and DTS-HDMA? (Pretty idiotic questions out of my igloo)
Definitely not idiotic. In fact, those are the next questions that should logically follow:
(a) Why do the player and the receiver both have the capability to decode, if decoding by either player or receiver will give you the same end result? (b) Why are there 2 lossless compression formats, if uncompression from either format will give you the same end result?
Decoding capability for the receiver is a marketing ploy. If the consumer is given a choice between a receiver that can decode lossless audio and a receiver that cannot, more will buy the receiver with decoding capability. No manufacturer wants to be left behind by the competition. They will keep making receivers with that capability even if it's not necessary for the great majority of Blu-ray players.
As for Dolby vs. DTS, the two competing companies existed during the days of lossy compression, when there was an actual and measurable difference between the two codecs. As a result, consumers were divided into the pro-Dolby camp and the pro-DTS camp.
When the specs of BD were being drafted, the Blu-ray Disc Association had to include support for both in order to satisfy the pro-Dolby and the pro-DTS camps. That way, they increase the likelihood of market acceptance when they introduce BD to consumers.
In other words, the short answer is simply this: Marketing.
I'm new to all these things, but for someone who never appreciated sound systems - What I'm hearing from an entry level HTIB (Onkyo S3300) is really something that is pleasing to my ears. Looks like a new venture or quest is on the way.
I'm excited ;)
I've been wondering all this time why you didn't care much for home theater audio.
Try watching a good movie with great audio and your involvement in the movie will be so much deeper. Without good audio, you'll be missing half of the experience.
If you need top-notch set-up advice, the right persons to ask are streetsmart, iiinas and Stagea, among others. If you need only the basics, ask me ... :D
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@barrister
I heard you there buddy! Now, for blind preferences, do you prefer Dolby TrueHD over the DTS HD counter part? Or vice versa?
About having my HTIB, the reason I got hooked was because I was watching one my wife's blu-ray movies. The title being "30 days of nights", now I was never the type would would be freaked out of any show.
With a surround sound system I got jerked by one of the scenes, which was due to the intense sound effects. You're right about about me missing half the experience, and it looks like I'll be watching them horror movies again...This time with a new perspective and literally lending ear to the program;)
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Now, for blind preferences, do you prefer Dolby TrueHD over the DTS HD counter part? Or vice versa?
I prefer Dolby TrueHD.
But it's not popular among enthusiasts. They think it's low-tech simply because the bitrate is low.
About having my HTIB, the reason I got hooked was because I was watching one my wife's blu-ray movies. The title being "30 days of nights", now I was never the type would would be freaked out of any show.
With a surround sound system I got jerked by one of the scenes, which was due to the intense sound effects. You're right about about me missing half the experience, and it looks like I'll be watching them horror movies again...This time with a new perspective and literally lending ear to the program;)
It's good to start with HTiB first, so you don't get techno-shock by immediately starting with AV receivers and big speakers.
In the coming months, try auditioning mid-end set-ups at audio-video stores.
When you feel you're getting dissatisfied with HTiB sound, try an upgrade. Then try watching a good horror movie in a dark room ... ;)
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@barrister
Man, I feel like a Hillbilly not knowing these things! Anyway, a good portion of my life was spent in Tennessee, so that just about covers the hill part (still have the accent) :).
Speaking about Tennessee, our old house over there reveals some gear left over by my brother, who, at one point in his life, was interested in these home theatre stuff.
A quick inventory reveals:
1X Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS AVR
Def Tech towers 2300 C/L/R
Martin Logan Descent Subs
They're pretty much in the 2007 era, now, are they worth bringing over to our islands?
Thanks partner!
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@barrister
Man, I feel like a Hillbilly not knowing these things! Anyway, a good portion of my life was spent in Tennessee, so that just about covers the hill part (still have the accent) :).
Speaking about Tennessee, our old house over there reveals some gear left over by my brother, who, at one point in his life, was interested in these home theatre stuff.
A quick inventory reveals:
1X Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS AVR
Def Tech towers 2300 C/L/R
Martin Logan Descent Subs
They're pretty much in the 2007 era, now, are they worth bringing over to our islands?
Thanks partner!
if you can get the speakers and the sub here at minimum cost possible, i think the def techs and the martin logan sub is still definitely worth using. but in the case of the receiver, i suggest you get a newer hdmi based receiver already with auto room correction feature already. onkyo, denon, yamaha, harman kardon and pioneer all have auto room correction in their receivers today.
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if you can get the speakers and the sub here at minimum cost possible, i think the def techs and the martin logan sub is still definitely worth using. but in the case of the receiver, i suggest you get a newer hdmi based receiver already with auto room correction feature already. onkyo, denon, yamaha, harman kardon and pioneer all have auto room correction in their receivers today.
I guess, our old Pioneer AVR won't light up those HD sound formats :D
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I guess, our old Pioneer AVR won't light up those HD sound formats :D
haha, that's for sure.
but speakers and subs usually outlast receivers in terms of usage. as long it is use accordingly then these components will last long.
but as for receivers, with technology changing so fast. for enthusiasts, changing their receivers once in every two years is not uncommon.
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Man, I feel like a Hillbilly not knowing these things! Anyway, a good portion of my life was spent in Tennessee, so that just about covers the hill part (still have the accent) :).
I saw that plasma review you uploaded on youtube. You didn't sound like a redneck ... (Joke lang po ... ;))
Speaking about Tennessee, our old house over there reveals some gear left over by my brother, who, at one point in his life, was interested in these home theatre stuff.
A quick inventory reveals:
1X Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS AVR
Def Tech towers 2300 C/L/R
Martin Logan Descent Subs
They're pretty much in the 2007 era, now, are they worth bringing over to our islands?
No, I'd buy new stuff here if I were you. It's not like you're going to be bringing in a little iPod dock. Those things are huge and heavy.
The receiver is high-end, but you might not be happy with that model because receivers get old really fast. If you get a new one here, it will have all the latest features, and it will also be a 220 volt/60Hz model.
About the Def Tech and Martin Logan, they're high-end, but that's no guarantee that you''ll like how they sound. What if after all the trouble you had to go through shipping them here, it turns out that you don't like the sound?
Besides, I don't think you can find a service center here if something goes wrong with them.
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sa DVDlagi kong hinahanap yung dts because of the volume boost. i replayed some of my dvds through a weak jvc htib (resident evil trilogy, fantastic four, dream catcher and pear harbor). i appreciated the more quiter scenes as they tend to give the best ambience with any surround on. i'm pretty sure the lossless audio will also shine during the quiter moments when you hear expertly placed sound effects of birds chirping, the crackling pebbles under leader shoes etc. just my two cents until i get to experience it myself when my blu ray player arrives and once i geta decent audio system
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I just had to butt-in and give my thank yous for this wonderful and delightful discussion on high definition audio.
Thanks to Carlo, IInas and Barrister for updating my audio knowledge on the new codec and decoders. Haven't updated my Onkyo since I got 5.2 for my videogames.
For those I missed, thanks as well, this short thread brought back to life my new goal of upgrading my system.
I should not have expected any less from a forum that got me buying two wdtv lives and a popcorn hour a200 in two weeks time.
Keep it up guys, hope you can bring in more tech for the average ht guy.
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@barrister
I try to keep the hillbilly talk under close check but when I get excited it pops out of nowhere! Sad about them audio gears, my brother told me they cost top dollar back then. :(
Any blu-ray recommendations for horror movies with very good HD sound? I mean, if ever I'd pop butter for bacon on a new sound system, I don't like it to end up just playing Dragon Ball Z. Which my wife has been watching since Christmas, and it's driving me nuts already!
Also, you mentioned Dolby TrueHD having a lower bitrate, and the consequences of which is/are?
@iiinas
I've been hearing about HDMI handshake issues for HDMI based AVRs, and it's something that concerns me. What exactly is it for audio? And just how bad can an HDMI handshake issue be?
@Hero33&warmaster
Thank you for the comments.
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I think all those compression techs as far as audio is concerned are similar to NAB (non alcoholic beer)
Back in the very late 80s, I remember drinking NAB but only found out that 0.0% alcohol was "allegedly" achieved by Kirin Beverage for the first time in 2008-2009. ;D
HD audio decoding via player vs decoding via the AVR: I dont think any normal person would actually hear the difference. Maybe an oscilloscope would show some differences in frequency vs amplitude curves. ;)
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@barrister
I try to keep the hillbilly talk under close check but when I get excited it pops out of nowhere! Sad about them audio gears, my brother told me they cost top dollar back then. :(
That's why I don't like high end. Compared to mid-end stuff, high-end gear are only slightly better, yet they cost much, much more. And when you try getting rid of those old high-end gears, they're going to be harder to sell at a fair price. You'll eventually have to sell them at unfairly low prices if you want to get rid of them.
Any blu-ray recommendations for horror movies with very good HD sound? I mean, if ever I'd pop butter for bacon on a new sound system, I don't like it to end up just playing Dragon Ball Z. Which my wife has been watching since Christmas, and it's driving me nuts already!
I'm too new to HD audio to make good recommendations. I'll just give you a link to avsforum's Blu-ray audio tier thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1190265
That thread is not too updated, unfortunately.
Maybe Shutter would be good:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jJF86KBSL._AA115_.jpg)
2008, starring Joshua Jackson, directed by Masayuki Ochiai
http://www.amazon.com/Shutter-Unrated-Blu-ray-Joshua-Jackson/dp/B0019X3YXC
Also, you mentioned Dolby TrueHD having a lower bitrate, and the consequences of which is/are?
Since Dolby TrueHD compression is lossless, uncompression by either the receiver or the player should give you the same uncompressed original PCM that a DTS-HD MA uncompression would produce.
If Dolby compression produces a smaller file with a lower bitrate, it only means that Dolby's codec compresses more efficiently than DTS'.
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@Clondalkin
Nice way of putting it :)
@barrister
Ok, a few more questions, if you don't mind ;D
Dolby D is from Dolby Labs, DTS is by DTS, then who makes PCM? Very very curious about these sound formats ;)
Another observation:
When "bitstreamed", my AVR would switch from one audio format to another like:
The "Universal" Logo will be at DD 5.1, the FBI warning will be at Pro-Logic II, the movie menu will be at either "All Channel Stereo" or Pro-Logic, then when the movie starts (in this case Casino Blu-Ray) it goes to DTS-HD Master.
I mean are all those switches necessary? Hope the receiver does not quit mid way with all that kind of work :)
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Dolby D is from Dolby Labs, DTS is by DTS, then who makes PCM? Very very curious about these sound formats ;)
PCM is very old tech. Anyone can make it.
PCM ("Pulse-code modulation") is a method used for digital representation of analog signals, invented in 1937. It's sometimes called LPCM ("Linear pulse-code modulated audio) if the PCM comes with linear quantization.
PCM was first used as a consumer audio format when the audio CD was introduced by Sony & Philips in 1982. Music CDs still use the PCM format today.
Browse the history of CD: http://www.1stopcdshop.com/info/historycd.cfm.htm
Another observation:
When "bitstreamed", my AVR would switch from one audio format to another like:
The "Universal" Logo will be at DD 5.1, the FBI warning will be at Pro-Logic II, the movie menu will be at either "All Channel Stereo" or Pro-Logic, then when the movie starts (in this case Casino Blu-Ray) it goes to DTS-HD Master.
I mean are all those switches necessary? Hope the receiver does not quit mid way with all that kind of work :)
Don't worry about it. The receiver can take it because those operations are actually very simple.
If the audio on the Universal Studios logo shifts to DD 5.1, it means that DD 5.1 is the only audio on the soundtrack because the studio hasn't gotten around to providing an HD audio mix for their logo yet. So the receiver plays the legacy Dolby 5.1, which is the only soundtrack available on the video clip.
The FBI warning does not have any audio, so the receiver defaults to Dolby Pro-Logic (newer receivers default to a newer version of Dolby PL).
When Casino Royale starts, the player chooses DTS-HD MA by default, as instructed to it by the Java software on the disc.
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@iiinas
I've been hearing about HDMI handshake issues for HDMI based AVRs, and it's something that concerns me. What exactly is it for audio? And just how bad can an HDMI handshake issue be?
well, the handshake issue has been here a while already, and as each generation of receivers and sources are launched, the issue becomes less and less frequent.
http://www.eetimes.com/design/communications-design/4013366/HDMI-DVI-HDCP-handshake-problems--how-to-avoid-them?pageNumber=0 (http://www.eetimes.com/design/communications-design/4013366/HDMI-DVI-HDCP-handshake-problems--how-to-avoid-them?pageNumber=0)
if you read the link (its a bit long and technical, and its dated 2007), early handshake issues usually came about because of incompatibility of the equipments involved in the chain, from the source, to the cable and of course the repeaters (receivers) since the hdmi standard during that time was changing at a rapid pace, people usually experienced handshake issues by combining different equipments with different hdmi standards, like maybe a hdmi 1.1 cable connected to an hdmi 1.2 player or receiver, once the signal in the chain can't communicate (encode and decode) well, it loses the signal and creates handshake issues.
but today, the hdmi standard is already 7 years old, although it is still evolving, it is now more stable, even manufacturers of equipments have since more or less grown into the technology. so imho, handshake issues that we have today has more to do with sub standard construction than the incompatibility issues in the past.
and the main culprit of the issue is more often than not the hdmi cable. as they say buy the cheap one and you run the risk that it will have problems with handshake when the time comes. not saying you should buy the most expensive ones, since i myself use those 250 pesos cable, if it breaks down, i buy a new one. :) another issue with handshake that is cable related is the length of the cable. if you run a cable for more than 50 feet, you run the risk of losing a signal or two, that is why some big ht rooms have boosters in the middle of a long cable run to maintain the signal.
as for what happens during a problem with handshake. for video the image goes on and off, from pictures to blue screen. for audio, definitely audio drops (no sound). i have encountered serious handshake issues with my hddvd player (a tosh player). i have since learn to deal with the annoying on and off when watching my collection of hddvds. but for my nmt and ps3, no handshake issue for me. all these sources are running through my onkyo receiver before going to my lcd panel or projector.
sorry very long post, but in essence, i think you should not be concerned with regards to the handshake issue. 90% solved by buying a new hdmi cable. :)
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@iiinas
Hey, don't worry about long posts. I love reading well explained articles, and it looks like we've just encountered our 1st HDMI issue. I'll let my wife post it, she can explain it better than I can ;)
That's a great info you gave there.
Prepare for more questions ;)
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glad carlo is starting to appreciate some sounds ;)
anyway, i tested batman the dark knight returns and noticed since dalawa yung tracks nya - dd 5.1 and dd-truehd. i can't tell the diff between the two...as in parang wala talaga. don't get me wrong on a similar movie the legacy dd on blu sounds better than the legacy dd on dvd. but pag blu-ray to blu-ray, between the hd and the legacy parang pareho lang talaga.
but it FEELS really good to see those HD sound formats light up! hahahaha
also, when I press the select button on my ps3 (playing a blu-ray movie) i see the following info displayed and would simply like to know what they mean:
Dolby Digital - Multi-Channel 48KHZ 640KBPS AVC 27.7 MBPS
salamat
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also, when I press the select button on my ps3 (playing a blu-ray movie) i see the following info displayed and would simply like to know what they mean:
Dolby Digital - Multi-Channel 48KHZ 640KBPS AVC 27.7 MBPS
48kHz - Audio sampling rate (number of samples per second taken from a signal), 48,000Hz per second. 48kHz is the standard sampling rate for sound on video; 44.1kHz is the standard sampling rate for audio CDs.
640 kbps - Audio bitrate (number of bits conveyed or processed per second), 640,000 bits per second. Dolby Digital lossy has a maximum bitrate of 640kbps. Dolby TrueHD has a maximum bitrate of 18.64 Mbps.
AVC - The video codec used (AVC means "Advanced Video Coding").
27.7 Mbps - Video bitrate, 27,000,000 bits per second.
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@barrister
wow! now i know what they mean ;) many many thanks! ikaw sir, how do you find lossy dd vs lossless dd?
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So far, parang pareho lang ang tunog, e ... :P
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So far, parang pareho lang ang tunog, e ... :P
My old AX1 vs a new 1067? What's your guess?
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Amp of old AX1 is way better than the amp of the new 1067, I'm sure.
Pero kahit AX1, baka pareho lang sa akin ang lossy and lossless. Maybe a very slight improvement for lossless, if I concentrate hard enough ... :D
Dolby Digital on 35mm film only uses 320kbps. Talo pa ng DVD, up to 448kbps Dolby lossy. Lalong talo ng Blu-ray, up to 640kbps Dolby lossy.
Maganda na siguro ang 640kbps lossy, ewan ko ba naman kung bakit bilib na bilib sila sa lossless ... ???
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So far, parang pareho lang ang tunog, e ... :P
I'm very happy that I'm not the only one who can't tell the darn difference. In itself, the lossy Dolby Digital, sounds very good already. But what do I know :D
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I'm very happy that I'm not the only one who can't tell the darn difference. In itself, the lossy Dolby Digital, sounds very good already. But what do I know :D
You're definitely not alone. Most people, in a blind test, can't tell the difference between high-def and normal audio.
In Sep 2008, we held a blind test, attended by more than 20 Pinoydvd members. There was a video test and an audio test. In the audio test, we played a lossless 2-minute clip of a BD and then played the legacy lossy clip. The participants had to guess which clip was lossless. The overall result was that less than half could guess which was the lossless clip. Here's the link. Look at Reply #102 onwards.
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,81472.90.html
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Buti na lang wala ako doon. Baka na-golden egg din ako ... :D
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@streetsmart
Heard so much about you regarding audio equipments, you're a legend around here when it comes to that. Try as I may, I'm still getting the hang out of it. There are time I still prefer the regular TV speakers simply because I'm a lazy penguin who wants to use only 1 remote.
Also know that you host a number of sound demonstrations and my wife (comitatus) would really love to hear them live.
Nice of you to post a reply. Much appreciated. Thanks!
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also, when I press the select button on my ps3 (playing a blu-ray movie) i see the following info displayed and would simply like to know what they mean:
Dolby Digital - Multi-Channel 48KHZ 640KBPS AVC 27.7 MBPS
Afaik, this is what it means:
Dolby Digital audio format
48kHz audio sampling rate
640kbps audio bitrate
AVC video compression format (Advanced Video Coding)
27.7 Mbps combined bitrate
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I enjoyed reading all the ideas here. Let me share mine.
1. As regards which sounds better DTS or HD sounds (TruHd or DTSMaster) my humble ears prefer the latter. Why? My ears appreciate the "airy" ambiance DTS Master brings out in my HT. As I compare the DTS sound of a DVD viz. my BD of Hitman David Foster, HD Master format has the edge in my ear because it has more forcefulness and that thicker sound. One reason I prefer BD over Mkv files is that currently my BD player can decode HT sounds while my xtreamer player cannot.
2. As regards picture quality between BD and Mkv, i do not notice any difference in this aspect anymore. For my eyes, same quality.
That's just me and my wife who always participates with me in my experiments. That's why I love her so much for we share the same hobby. That makes upgrading easier given that she holds the purse.
Bottomline, our senses are really different in one way or the other. No justification in sounds or picture quality can ever contest what you and me hears or sees.
Thank you for reading.
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1. As regards which sounds better DTS or HD sounds (TruHd or DTSMaster) my humble ears prefer the latter. Why? My ears appreciate the "airy" ambiance DTS Master brings out in my HT. As I compare the DTS sound of a DVD viz. my BD of Hitman David Foster, HD Master format has the edge in my ear because it has more forcefulness and that thicker sound.
If you like the DTS-HD MA sound on Hitman: David Foster and Friends, it means that you like the audio quality on that disc. However, that's not sufficient basis to show that DTS-HD MA sounds better than Dolby TrueHD.
There must first be a side-by-side comparison between the DTS-HD MA track and the Dolby TrueHD track of the same title before a listener can conclude that one codec did a better job of compressing and decompressing the same master audio.
In the case of the Hitman BD, the HD audio is DTS-HD MA, but it does not have a Dolby TrueHD track. If it's not possible to compare the two formats on the Hitman BD, how did you know that DTS-HD MA is better, when you're using the audio on the Hitman BD as basis?
Bottomline, our senses are really different in one way or the other. No justification in sounds or picture quality can ever contest what you and me hears or sees.
I agree with you there :).
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Calling on Tsip Gaol!
I was watching Sting's concert in Berlin last night and noticed that both LPCM and DTS-HD are available. How do the sounds compare on your Denon 4310? Thanks!
On my AX1, it was simply mas malakas or mas mahina ;D - but the general sound quality was pleasant to the ears.
Sorry sa abala Bro but I really thought about this thread when I saw both LPCM and DTS-HD together. Thanks!
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bookmarking, will do some backreading later ;D
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@vgsison
happy your wife is supportive...i've also been very supportive of my husband, and ryt now i'm trying to egg him to go one step above the visual.
next up i'll get him to appreciate anime (dragon ball kai or z hehehe)
@barrister
the audio system of carlo777 sa TN sayang naman so pinauwi ko na din. sa akin lalang daw ;D anyway, since medyo luma na yung avr. he tells me to connect my blu-ray via opticals, maybe, the sound quality of optical over hdmi is not too far apart naman...is it?
@anyone
I'm the one pala who installs the audio systems in the house and about the rear or surround speakers...
do I place them exactly sa side ng listener or medyo sa rear side?
thanks.
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Hi Yuriko,
That's a pretty mean set of AVR and speakers you're bringing in from TN. That should sound really great on optical cable. Hanap ka nalang nung DTS-HD/Dolby TrueHD na neon light and place it somewhere near the top of the AVR. Hehehe baduy ba? Or you can always offer such nice non-HD compliant yet high-class AVR model here in PDVD at a good price, you know. Hehehe.
I have installed the rear/surround speakers both at the front and at my side because I don't have a wall at the back. But if you look at typical HT set-up diagrams, they are shown at the back of the sitting position. ;)
My wife and I balance each other out. We share the same CC for mutual auditing purpose and everytime I ask her the logic for having more bags than regular daily meals, she replies by asking me what level of sound difference I expect if I buy a new AVR. But we lovingly agree on what excellent picture quality looks like.
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@clondalkin
hahaha we lovingly agree on what's good sa mga mata namin also...we have yet to agree on what sounds good and what movie or movies to watch together as a couple.
i also want to put a neon dts or dolby logo...i like i like i like talaga...but eto sabi ni carlo "parang cabaret ang dating" if i do...sabi ko naman, mas maganda yan...para may ibang purpose din...and this was his answer...
;D ;D ;D
nga pala i have the pianist blu-ray and it has dts-hd and dd 5.1 sound formats. i know it's not a fair comparison but a sneaky listen may give me an idea of their difference...i hope.
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@barrister
the audio system of carlo777 sa TN sayang naman so pinauwi ko na din. sa akin lalang daw ;D anyway, since medyo luma na yung avr. he tells me to connect my blu-ray via opticals, maybe, the sound quality of optical over hdmi is not too far apart naman...is it?
Well, the stuff you're bringing in are all high-end gear. Kahit luma yung receiver, features lang ang luma, but the amplification is still good.
Sound quality of optical? Pareho lang yon .... but let me qualify first para malinaw:
Optical connections have limited bandwidth, so they can't carry BD lossless sound or uncompressed PCM 5.1. To do that, you need the higher capacity of HDMI.
Now, if you're comparing lossy sound on optical vs. lossy sound on HDMI, they should be the same because both connections should be transmitting exactly the same digital signal.
@anyone
I'm the one pala who installs the audio systems in the house and about the rear or surround speakers...
do I place them exactly sa side ng listener or medyo sa rear side?
Medyo sa rear and slightly above the listener.
If placed on the sides exactly in line with the listener, you won't reproduce back sounds too well. Placed on the sides but slightly behind the listener, you get both side and back sounds with a little help from wall reflections.
If height is the same as the listening position, you won't reproduce high sounds too well. Place it slightly higher, then listen to that helicopter fly above your head ... ;)
Speaker placement is a bit tricky. Start with Dolby's recommendations, figure out the rationale behind those recommendations, then figure out your own placements based on personal preference:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/speaker-setup-guide/index.html
nga pala i have the pianist blu-ray and it has dts-hd and dd 5.1 sound formats. i know it's not a fair comparison but a sneaky listen may give me an idea of their difference...i hope.
While comparing, make sure the soundtracks are level-matched (equal volume levels). Otherwise, the louder soundtrack will seem better.
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If you like the DTS-HD MA sound on Hitman: David Foster and Friends, it means that you like the audio quality on that disc. However, that's not sufficient basis to show that DTS-HD MA sounds better than Dolby TrueHD.
There must first be a side-by-side comparison between the DTS-HD MA track and the Dolby TrueHD track of the same title before a listener can conclude that one codec did a better job of compressing and decompressing the same master audio.
In the case of the Hitman BD, the HD audio is DTS-HD MA, but it does not have a Dolby TrueHD track. If it's not possible to compare the two formats on the Hitman BD, how did you know that DTS-HD MA is better, when you're using the audio on the Hitman BD as basis?
I agree with you there :).
Hi, I think vgsison's comment meant he preferred the DTS-MA audio track of the Bluray against the DTS lossy audio of David Foster Hitman and not DTS-MA tracks were better than Dolby TrueHD tracks.
Here are some of my observations and comments. I've also tried a few DTS-MA and DolbyTrueHD and like you I can't tell the difference from lossy tracks. I guess it also has to do with my old /entry level speakers.
I've read that both DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD is identical to the bigger LPCM if encoded properly. I think whether one movie's audio is better than the other is not really dependent on DTS-MA and Dolby True HD but on the sound engineer who mixes that particular movie.
And the only reason we have more DTS-MA tracks for Bluray titles than Dolby TrueHD track is pure marketing on the studio's part. It's rare to see a title with both DTS-MA and DolbyTrueHD.
The only advantage for DTS-MA is that already includes the core DTS track. While for DolbyTrueHD it will need to have another Dolby Digital 640kpbs track encoded on the disc. This will only be important if you have older AVR that doesn't support the HD audio formats.
Thanks.
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The only advantage for DTS-MA is that already includes the core DTS track. While for DolbyTrueHD it will need to have another Dolby Digital 640kpbs track encoded on the disc. This will only be important if you have older AVR that doesn't support the HD audio formats.
I dont know if the Dolby camp is doing damage control or what but I noticed that many new releases with Dolby TrueHD have interleaved DD 640kbps so even old AVRs can now produce actual sound.
In any case there is something cool(er) when you read on paper that the interleaved soundstream has 1.5mbps instead of 640kbps bitrate. Hehehe.
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I dont know if the Dolby camp is doing damage control or what but I noticed that many new releases with Dolby TrueHD have interleaved DD 640kbps so even old AVRs can now produce actual sound.
In any case there is something cool(er) when you read on paper that the interleaved soundstream has 1.5mbps instead of 640kbps bitrate. Hehehe.
So it's in 1 track baka naman they just packed the DD 640 with the DDTrueHD. Hindi ko alam yan kasi wala akong bagong title with DDTrueHD (hint hint! hehehe) Ok narin para streamlined lahat.
Thanks.
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So it's in 1 track baka naman they just packed the DD 640 with the DDTrueHD. Hindi ko alam yan kasi wala akong bagong title with DDTrueHD (hint hint! hehehe) Ok narin para streamlined lahat.
If you examine closely, most of the "new" releases with TrueHD are catalogue titles, while the really new 2010 movies and concerts and docs are in DTS-HD/MA. Bakit nga ba ganun ang situation?
Whether embedded AC3 or separate track, I would have to check ulit...or ikaw nalang mag-check next time (hehehe) because once I hear some sound from the HT speakers and the receiver displays Dolby Digital, I usually stop investigating further...hehehe
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If you examine closely, most of the "new" releases with TrueHD are catalogue titles, while the really new 2010 movies and concerts and docs are in DTS-HD/MA. Bakit nga ba ganun ang situation?
OK lang yun.
Ayaw magbayad ng studios for both Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA on one disc, gusto nila isa lang ang HD audio. If I were the studio and I have to choose one, I would also choose DTS-HD MA.
Mas popular kasi ang DTS. Pag Dolby ang nilagay diyan, magrereklamo na naman ang mga fanboys. E di DTS na lang, para mas marami ang happy ;).
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Update:
My Onkyo AVR was pulled out for another Firmware Update, and what I did was tried watching my Blu-Ray discs and barrister was right!
I was missing nearly half the experience! The jumpy movies just did not have the same effect.
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Update:
My Onkyo AVR was pulled out for another Firmware Update, and what I did was tried watching my Blu-Ray discs and barrister was right!
I was missing nearly half the experience! The jumpy movies just did not have the same effect.
sabi sayo carlo ma-miss mo yung surround sound eh :D
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sabi sayo carlo ma-miss mo yung surround sound eh :D
Yes brader!
Guys, can anyone describe what a sub distortion is?
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Our TN speaker system is packed and ready to ship! Can't wait to hear how they sound, so far we have that system, along with an S3300 and a Logitech Z5500...
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the audio system of carlo777 sa TN sayang naman so pinauwi ko na din. sa akin lalang daw ;D anyway, since medyo luma na yung avr. he tells me to connect my blu-ray via opticals, maybe, the sound quality of optical over hdmi is not too far apart naman...is it?
That's a great receiver pa din. It's still a lot better than many current offerings. Congrats Ma'am. :)
This receiver accepts both audio and video via HDMI. You don't have to use a separate audio connection. :) Set mo lang yung formats that the receiver can accept dun sa source.
Our TN speaker system is packed and ready to ship! Can't wait to hear how they sound, so far we have that system, along with an S3300 and a Logitech Z5500...
I'm willing to bet that the Pioneer will handily beat both of them, when coupled with good speakers. :)
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I'm willing to bet that the Pioneer will handily beat both of them, when coupled with good speakers. :)
That's an understatement ;).
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just a quick question...
how does dolby pro-logic movie differ from dolby dd? (both i believe are lossy and have 5.1 discrete audio)
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pro logic- simulated surround using info from front channels (not discrete)
DD - discrete - real embedded surround sound
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A little off topic question:
When I was a kid, my dad always reminds me to drop the volume of mt TV or radio when I switch them off. Hence, I always drop the volume of my TV and HTIB when I do power them out. Do I really need to do that?
Thanks.
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A little off topic question:
When I was a kid, my dad always reminds me to drop the volume of mt TV or radio when I switch them off. Hence, I always drop the volume of my TV and HTIB when I do power them out. Do I really need to do that?
Thanks.
I think that's so it won't startle the next person who will use the TV/Radio. My Onkyo 608 has the option of setting a "turn-on" volume which is really convenient.
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A little off topic question:
When I was a kid, my dad always reminds me to drop the volume of mt TV or radio when I switch them off. Hence, I always drop the volume of my TV and HTIB when I do power them out. Do I really need to do that?
Thanks.
This is also my practice, as bro conan said para hindi magulat yung susunod na gagamit. Sadly my kids always forgets kaya ayun lagi ako yung victim ;D
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I think that's so it won't startle the next person who will use the TV/Radio. My Onkyo 608 has the option of setting a "turn-on" volume which is really convenient.
my older denon 1509 has this option too. :)
never got the chance to check my previous 508 if it has this option ;D
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A little off topic question:
When I was a kid, my dad always reminds me to drop the volume of mt TV or radio when I switch them off. Hence, I always drop the volume of my TV and HTIB when I do power them out. Do I really need to do that?
Thanks.
dangerous part aside from the gulat factor, when the volume is a bit high, turning it on might damage the speaker drivers.
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My Yamaha 767 also has an "Initial Volume" option, which I set to -40dB. It's a useful feature of the newer receivers.
Another volume-related feature I like is the "Volume Trim" option, which allows you to set volume levels of different sources to more or less equal levels.
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My sound systems don't have those features, so at what volume percentage could I leave them before I turn them off? Will below 50% do?
Thanks!
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My sound systems don't have those features, so at what volume percentage could I leave them before I turn them off? Will below 50% do?
Thanks!
With my older receivers I used to turn them down to absolute minimum volume before turning off, but it's really down to your preference.
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This is also my practice, as bro conan said para hindi magulat yung susunod na gagamit. Sadly my kids always forgets kaya ayun lagi ako yung victim ;D
Do this too,
Better to be safe than sorry ;)
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With my older receivers I used to turn them down to absolute minimum volume before turning off, but it's really down to your preference.
Currently, that's what I do! I turn them down to 0.
;)
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A little off topic question:
When I was a kid, my dad always reminds me to drop the volume of mt TV or radio when I switch them off. Hence, I always drop the volume of my TV and HTIB when I do power them out. Do I really need to do that?
Thanks.
I remember this also that we have to set the volume to minimum before we turn off our Sansui Receiver. I remember also seeing a technician demo to my dad the effect of changing channel of the Receiver with high volume. The technician connected parang VU meter that shows the difference between changing channel with high volume and low volume. He was the one also that told my dad to turn volume down before turning it off. Namamatay kasi receiver namin dati with the red light on. Yung service center ng Sansui dati is sa VV Soliven along Edsa don't know if nandun pa din.
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Great info guys! Guess I really have to continue with "the lowering down the volume" practice.
Anyway...
My wife comitatus is scouting for a sound system (available in Japan), that's an "all in one" to avoid messy cables for my birthday. And she was given this model by a Japan based friend, does anyone know how these things sound?
http://reviews.cnet.com/home-theater-systems/yamaha-ysp-5100/4505-6740_7-33958444.html
Very pricey, but I'm not the one paying for it anyway, just need to know if these things are as good as full blown systems. ;D
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Great info guys! Guess I really have to continue with "the lowering down the volume" practice.
Anyway...
My wife comitatus is scouting for a sound system (available in Japan), that's an "all in one" to avoid messy cables for my birthday. And she was given this model by a Japan based friend, does anyone know how these things sound?
http://reviews.cnet.com/home-theater-systems/yamaha-ysp-5100/4505-6740_7-33958444.html
Very pricey, but I'm not the one paying for it anyway, just need to know if these things are as good as full blown systems. ;D
Those will never equal a full blown 5.1 or 7.1 system.
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http://reviews.cnet.com/home-theater-systems/yamaha-ysp-5100/4505-6740_7-33958444.html
Very pricey, but I'm not the one paying for it anyway, just need to know if these things are as good as full blown systems. ;D
No, that can never be as good as a regular AV receiver + 5 speakers + subwoofer set-up. That would be asking for the impossible.
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hi guys...
i read that the dif between dts-hdma and dolby truehd is a "thing" called dialog normalization. what is this feature or concept? and which audio format uses it?
the articles about dialnorm is too technical for me ;)
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I'll try to explain by example. It's going to be slightly inaccurate, but at least it's also going to be very easy to understand.
First, you have to know what "normalization" is.
Ever tried listening to a friend's collection of MP3 songs? You listen to the first song and adjust the volume to a level you like. Then the 2nd song's volume is too low, so you increase the player's volume to compensate. But you didn't know that the volume of the 3rd song is too loud, so when that 3rd song plays, you are startled by the overly loud volume.
That MP3 collection needs a program that will set a standard volume level for all songs, so you won't have to reach for the remote to adjust volume for every song. The process of standardizing volume levels for all tracks is called "Audio Normalization".
The same principle is true for home video. It's natural for some movie soundtracks to be louder than others, depending on the preferences of the engineers who made the DVD/BD masters.
To provide a standardized volume level for home video soundtracks, Dolby came up with "Dialnorm", which means "Dialog Normalization".
Dialnorm standardizes audio levels on home video at the production stage by measuring the average dialog level of the input signal, then using a fixed dialog volume level as basis for setting the volume level of the entire soundtrack.
If all audio producers cooperate and use Dolby's approach, users will get the same volume levels across all types of program content, from DVD to BD to all channels of broadcast TV.
As things are now, volume level lang ng TV commercial, hindi pa standardized. Usually nilalakasan ng TV station ang volume ng TV commecial, para happy yung mga sponsors.
... and which audio format uses it?
Only Dolby has it, since Dialnorm is a proprietary meta-data parameter that only works on the Dolby codec system.
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i'm slowly learning from you guys. thanks.
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I'll try to explain by example. It's going to be slightly inaccurate, but at least it's also going to be very easy to understand.
First, you have to know what "normalization" is.
Ever tried listening to a friend's collection of MP3 songs? You listen to the first song and adjust the volume to a level you like. Then the 2nd song's volume is too low, so you increase the player's volume to compensate. But you didn't know that the volume of the 3rd song is too loud, so when that 3rd song plays, you are startled by the overly loud volume.
That MP3 collection needs a program that will set a standard volume level for all songs, so you won't have to reach for the remote to adjust volume for every song. The process of standardizing volume levels for all tracks is called "Audio Normalization".
The same principle is true for home video. It's natural for some movie soundtracks to be louder than others, depending on the preferences of the engineers who made the DVD/BD masters.
To provide a standardized volume level for home video soundtracks, Dolby came up with "Dialnorm", which means "Dialog Normalization".
Dialnorm standardizes audio levels on home video at the production stage by measuring the average dialog level of the input signal, then using a fixed dialog volume level as basis for setting the volume level of the entire soundtrack.
If all audio producers cooperate and use Dolby's approach, users will get the same volume levels across all types of program content, from DVD to BD to all channels of broadcast TV.
As things are now, volume level lang ng TV commercial, hindi pa standardized. Usually nilalakasan ng TV station ang volume ng TV commecial, para happy yung mga sponsors.
Only Dolby has it, since Dialnorm is a proprietary meta-data parameter that only works on the Dolby codec system.
interesting read bro, thanks barrister. :D
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@barrister
now i understand it! hmmm...does dialnorm now... make the audio better?
thanks that was a very very nice read.
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Dialnorm doesn't make the audio better or worse. All it does is help keep volume levels consistent from program to program.
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Apparently, folks in the U.S. are also having problems with wildly varying volume levels. In fact, the U.S. had to pass a law that mandates consistent volume levels for TV commercials:
CALM Act - CALM Promises Less Noise
By Craig Kuhl, Contributing Editor
CedMagazine.com - February 01, 2011
There was a storm of activity in Congress at the end of last year to tone down commercial loudness, but now calm prevails – or CALM does, at least. The Commercial Advertisement Loudness Mitigation (CALM) Act was passed and signed into law at the end of the 2010 legislative session.
There’s no shortage of players entering the CALM Act game. From hardware and software manufacturers to content and service providers, the gaggle of entrants are vying for a place at the table to find solutions to cost-efficiently balance commercial and content volumes and determine just who’s responsible for what is growing.
“Commercial loudness probably must be dealt with at the headend, and we’re not sure of the cost implications . We’re also wondering if the broadcasters and cable companies will pressure the advertisers to make the process easier, and what the advertisers will really do,” said Paul Erickson, senior analyst for IMS Research.
http://www.cedmagazine.com/articles/2011/02/CALM-promises-less-noise.aspx
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Apparently, folks in the U.S. are also having problems with wildly varying volume levels. In fact, the U.S. had to pass a law that mandates consistent volume levels for TV commercials:
CALM Act - CALM Promises Less Noise
By Craig Kuhl, Contributing Editor
CedMagazine.com - February 01, 2011
There was a storm of activity in Congress at the end of last year to tone down commercial loudness, but now calm prevails – or CALM does, at least. The Commercial Advertisement Loudness Mitigation (CALM) Act was passed and signed into law at the end of the 2010 legislative session.
There’s no shortage of players entering the CALM Act game. From hardware and software manufacturers to content and service providers, the gaggle of entrants are vying for a place at the table to find solutions to cost-efficiently balance commercial and content volumes and determine just who’s responsible for what is growing.
“Commercial loudness probably must be dealt with at the headend, and we’re not sure of the cost implications . We’re also wondering if the broadcasters and cable companies will pressure the advertisers to make the process easier, and what the advertisers will really do,” said Paul Erickson, senior analyst for IMS Research.
http://www.cedmagazine.com/articles/2011/02/CALM-promises-less-noise.aspx
sana ganyan din dito sa atin :D
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i dont know if this is the right thread to ask this, paki delete na lang kung hindi pede. i just want to ask lang you guys know how to change the audio track of a video file. im asking this because my meady media player is connected to my htib, when i play a video file (MP4) with AAC 5.1 audio, there is no sound, so basically my htib doesnt support AAC format, but when i play a video file (AVI) with AC3 audio, it works well. so i was just wondering if i can change the audio (ACC) to AC3 of a MP4 video file. thanks.
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A program called Handbrake will do this...
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i dont know if this is the right thread to ask this, paki delete na lang kung hindi pede. i just want to ask lang you guys know how to change the audio track of a video file. im asking this because my meady media player is connected to my htib, when i play a video file (MP4) with AAC 5.1 audio, there is no sound, so basically my htib doesnt support AAC format, but when i play a video file (AVI) with AC3 audio, it works well. so i was just wondering if i can change the audio (ACC) to AC3 of a MP4 video file. thanks.
Walang bang option yung media player mo to select what audio output? I think yung ibang media player pede output to PCM? Para hindi na magdedecode yung HTIB mo.
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i dont know if this is the right thread to ask this, paki delete na lang kung hindi pede. i just want to ask lang you guys know how to change the audio track of a video file. im asking this because my meady media player is connected to my htib, when i play a video file (MP4) with AAC 5.1 audio, there is no sound, so basically my htib doesnt support AAC format, but when i play a video file (AVI) with AC3 audio, it works well. so i was just wondering if i can change the audio (ACC) to AC3 of a MP4 video file. thanks.
Fastest way is to convert MP4 to MKV using MkVsource application. It will only take one minute to do that. Then use Popcorn Audio converter to convert the AAC 5.1 to AC3 which will take only around 5 minutes, depends on the power of your workstation ofcourse.