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Home Theater => Audio => Speakers => Topic started by: anchit on Jul 15, 2011 at 01:38 AM
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Hello, i cant decide kung saang thread ko sya dapat ilagay kung sa speakers, amp o source.
Well here's my question, why is it that mas evident na nasa right speaker nanggagaling yung boses sa most the tracks tha i play? Ive changed preamps, cdp and speakers pero its still more evident na sa kanan na speakers galing ang boses wherein diba dapat centered sya?
Is it because my right channel is a lot closer to the wall? I've checked the connection of the ICs baka nagkapalit pero tama naman. O mas malakas lang ang right na tenga ko? ???
Thanks in advance for the rEplies
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IMHO, not always on center. depends on how the music/track was mixed or according to where musicians located at to produce life like soundstage.
I would suggest to use SPL meter gage to validate that the right channel is louder than other channels or run an auto calibration if amp has this feature. :)
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Ibang level na si Francis!!! ;)
IMHO, not always on center. depends on how the music/track was mixed or according to where musicians located at to produce life like soundstage.
I would suggest to use SPL meter gage to validate that the right channel is louder than other channels or run an auto calibration if amp has this feature. :)
I totally agree with you. And of course depende din sa material.
And hindi niyo ba napapansin, madalas ang piano, kalat sa stage? Seldom na pinpointed image a piano sa isang location.
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why not use something concrete... Perhaps a Nora Jones song and reference from there...
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IMHO, not always on center. depends on how the music/track was mixed or according to where musicians located at to produce life like soundstage.
I would suggest to use SPL meter gage to validate that the right channel is louder than other channels or run an auto calibration if amp has this feature. :)
+1000........this is an issue where your ears can't help you.....you need instruments to verify polarity of speakers, an spl meter and frequency sweep analyser to get an overall response plot of your system.....
until you can have these instruments, all we can do is talk about it.... ;D
there is a sofware that can be installed in your laptops or tablets that lets you do all these testing, you can pm ojofool about this software....
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+1000........this is an issue where your ears can't help you.....you need instruments to verify polarity of speakers, an spl meter and frequency sweep analyser to get an overall response plot of your system.....
until you can have these instruments, all we can do is talk about it.... ;D
there is a sofware that can be installed in your laptops or tablets that lets you do all these testing, you can pm ojofool about this software....
Meron bang calibration software for windows tapos gagamitin mong mic eh mic nang laptop or you can attach a mic sa IN nang laptop?
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If you suspect that there's something wrong with the speaker, why don't you swap the left and right speakers and see if the "problem" is still there.
It's true that the image of a voice will vary, depending on the mix, but it's also true that a lot of mixes clamp the voice in the center. If you never hear the voice in the center, there's something wrong.
I suspect the problem is the location of the speaker.
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Manually calibrated my speakers with the help of this..
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa316/ram_on/RS-SPL/RS-SPL-3.jpg)
;D
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Have you tried listening to a monaural recording?
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Thanks for the response:)
sir nelson: iba na ba? Dati ang Image sakin is Picture eh hehe.
Sir Mark: ive already tried swapping the speakers and ive also changed speakers pero same results.
Hindi naman sa lahat ng CDs or tracks na mas evident sa righst channel, 70% of the time. Ang sure ako, pag jack johnson songs, centerd talaga ang boses, pero yung mga Best Audiophile voices selection CD, the souce of voice is more evident sa right, even if i close my eyes. So does it mean na its actually how he tracks were recorded?
I will try to do a more concerete measurement, try ko magdownload ng app or use spl meter:)
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the speaker closer to the wall will be louder.... swap the speakers including the cables, the speakers on the Right will still be louder, in this scenario you can only fix it by adjusting the balance or relocating the right speaker away from the wall.
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Have you tried listening to a monaural recording?
hindi pa si cal.
One particular track, Amazing Grace by Randy Owen, im listening to it right now, nasa right galing ang boses.
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the speaker closer to the wall will be louder.... swap the speakers including the cables, the speakers on the Right will still be louder, in this scenario you can only fix it by adjusting the balance or relocating the right speaker away from the wall.
i jus tried adjusting the right speaker, away from the wall pero i get the same result. Is it because yung wall sa right speaker ko concrete na wall and yung nasa left wood, sa side kasi sya ng pinyo ko and its not a solid wood?
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Another trick is to move the LEFT speaker closer to you, or AIM it direct to you, you can also aim the Right speaker away from you. .. trial and error
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assuming the equipment is working properliy, anything not symetrical in the room will affect imaging...
i jus tried adjusting the right speaker, away from the wall pero i get the same result. Is it because yung wall sa right speaker ko concrete na wall and yung nasa left wood, sa side kasi sya ng pinyo ko and its not a solid wood?
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it might be the amps bias, have you tried with other amps?
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it might be the amps bias, have you tried with other amps?
preamp sir yes pero power amp hindi.
Im listening to Jack Johnson's sleep thru the static album, centered na centered naman sya
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try to experiment by putting absorbent material on the conc. wall and observe the effect.... :)
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Another way -- move your listening position up so that you are nearer to the speakers than they are to each other. Then, point the speakers directly towards you. If you can, make sure that the tweeters are at the same level as your ears.
That puts you in a nearfield position and will mitigate the effects of reflections. You will hear mostly the direct sound.
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+1000........this is an issue where your ears can't help you.....you need instruments to verify polarity of speakers, an spl meter and frequency sweep analyser to get an overall response plot of your system.....
until you can have these instruments, all we can do is talk about it.... ;D
there is a sofware that can be installed in your laptops or tablets that lets you do all these testing, you can pm ojofool about this software....
i think its called audio-tools. nakita ko gamit ng isang audiophile. hindi ko makita kay pareng google.
meron din tayo nakita na maliit ng gadget na ginamit na pang-tono ng system bago patugtugin para flat lahat ng freq.resp.
hingi tayo kay JF? sure magustuhan niya ang gawa mo. ;D
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IMHO, not always on center. depends on how the music/track was mixed or according to where musicians located at to produce life like soundstage.
I would suggest to use SPL meter gage to validate that the right channel is louder than other channels or run an auto calibration if amp has this feature. :)
aywa, tumpak ka sadik. try mo hanapin audio tools software (not audio fools ha ;D) pwede install sa ipad.
gusto natin laging nasa sweetspot o gitna pero ang actual live performance o recording hindi naman lahat nasa gitna di ba? na-validate ko yan nung makapakinig sa system na wall-of-sound, parang live performance ang dating, di ba KaTony ;D
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aywa, tumpak ka sadik. try mo hanapin audio tools software (not audio fools ha ;D) pwede install sa ipad.
gusto natin laging nasa sweetspot o gitna pero ang actual live performance o recording hindi naman lahat nasa gitna di ba? na-validate ko yan nung makapakinig sa system na wall-of-sound, parang live performance ang dating, di ba KaTony ;D
shukran sadik... ;D enshaalah.. ana shof hadah. :D
iba pa rin ang sensation ng (pakikinig) pag nasa sweetspot.... ;D :D tama kayo dyan, kung maganda ang pakaka mixed ng music kahit saang spot dinig pa rin ang presence ng bawat instrumento... :D
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gusto natin laging nasa sweetspot o gitna pero ang actual live performance o recording hindi naman lahat nasa gitna di ba? na-validate ko yan nung makapakinig sa system na wall-of-sound, parang live performance ang dating, di ba KaTony
mismo.....high definition set-ups lets you hear the music from anywhere in the room with the same clarity......... ;D
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thanks sa mga inputs, i will give it a try. :) :)
another thing, pag malapit naman ako about 3 feet from it, well centered naman ang boses. pag lumayo nako dun na nawawala sa center. ???
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Anchit,
First you need to know how a particular track is actually being presented during playback before you make the test or adjustments.
One way, is to listen through a headphones and verify the imaging of the vocals and the instruments.
OR, get a test CD, like those Chesky test CDs. In these test cds there are tracks testing left and right balance, phasing, depth, imaging, etc.
Check this out in your favorite stores or from your friends:
http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Demonstration-Disc-Critical-Listening/dp/B00002MXUH (http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Demonstration-Disc-Critical-Listening/dp/B00002MXUH)
or
http://www.amazon.com/XLO-Reference-Test-Burn-Recordings/dp/B0000015AL/ref=pd_sim_m_2 (http://www.amazon.com/XLO-Reference-Test-Burn-Recordings/dp/B0000015AL/ref=pd_sim_m_2)
or
http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Demonstration-Disc-Various-Artists/dp/B0016KCBNC/ref=pd_sim_m_14 (http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Demonstration-Disc-Various-Artists/dp/B0016KCBNC/ref=pd_sim_m_14)
When you have these materials, then you can test and adjust, speaker placement and/or acoustic treatment.
BTW, also check all you wires and ensure all are connected consistently.
Hope this helps.
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That is because your room is interacting with the speakers and likewise depending on where you are positioned when listening.
thanks sa mga inputs, i will give it a try. :) :)
another thing, pag malapit naman ako about 3 feet from it, well centered naman ang boses. pag lumayo nako dun na nawawala sa center. ???
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thanks sa mga inputs, i will give it a try. :) :)
another thing, pag malapit naman ako about 3 feet from it, well centered naman ang boses. pag lumayo nako dun na nawawala sa center. ???
sa 3ft. distance mas nakafocus sayo about 90% signal ng center at yung L/R kunti lang porsyento lang ang naririnig nyo. At certain distance, possible that the frequency signal from center was cancelled out by L/R channels plus reflections from hard surface. It appears louder cuz it reaches our ears miliseconds after the direct sound. :)
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thanks sa mga inputs, i will give it a try. :) :)
another thing, pag malapit naman ako about 3 feet from it, well centered naman ang boses. pag lumayo nako dun na nawawala sa center. ???
You are experiencing a very well-known phenomenon in audio. What we hear from our system is a mix of direct sounds coming from the speakers and reflections coming from the sounds which bounce off the walls, floors and ceiling.
Reflections *may* have a negative effect on sq, including poor imaging, spectral balance, ringing, intelligibility, etc. These "bad" reflections are usually the first reflections. There can also be "good" reflections which tend to give a sense of space, for example. These are the later reflections.
Draw an imaginary equilateral triangle with your 2 speakers and the main listening position. The general rule is that if you go closer to the speakers (you go "inside" the equilateral triangle), there is much more direct sound than reflected sound. Thus, you remove the possible negative effects of reflections. Take note though that on the other hand, you also remove the "good" reflections.
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sa 3ft. distance mas nakafocus sayo about 90% signal ng center at yung L/R kunti lang porsyento lang ang naririnig nyo. At certain distance, possible that the frequency signal from center was cancelled out by L/R channels plus reflections from hard surface. It appears louder cuz it reaches our ears miliseconds after the direct sound. :)
I think that anchit was referring to the "centered image" of the 2 stereo channels, not a center channel. Ang sinasabi niya is that kapag lumapit sya, maganda ang imaging pero pag lumayo siya, nasisira ang imaging.
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I think that anchit was referring to the "centered image" of the 2 stereo channels, not a center channel. Ang sinasabi niya is that kapag lumapit sya, maganda ang imaging pero pag lumayo siya, nasisira ang imaging.
Thanks sir Mark for the clarification. I stand corrected... :)
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thanks sa mga inputs, i will give it a try. :) :)
another thing, pag malapit naman ako about 3 feet from it, well centered naman ang boses. pag lumayo nako dun na nawawala sa center. ???
Have you tried playing with different "toe-in" positions of the speakers? How far apart are they from each other?
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Have you tried playing with different "toe-in" positions of the speakers? How far apart are they from each other?
sir they are approx 5feet away from each other
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Is it because my right channel is a lot closer to the wall?
i think it has a lot to do with this. the first reflections could give up to 3dB apparent gain to the right channel. by moving closer to the speakers you can minimize the effects of the first reflection but the stereo image will be much wider than it should be. best solution perhaps is to acoustically treat the wall.
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sir they are approx 5feet away from each other
My speakers are similar in position to yours, that the right one is very near the wall (made of wood) and the left one is not. However the vocals do sound centered, and neither speaker sounds louder than the other. I had to experiment a lot though with "toe-in" and the distance of the speakers. I think 6 to 7 feet apart would be ideal.
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Hi Francis! The room condition integrates w/ the imaging also of your system. Try several toe-ins...if you have extra space, try 8-feet distance from left to right speaker...listen...then adjust toe-in, then listen again...make sure you listen to a very familiar CD/music...Good luck!
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If I may add, marami man ang tataas ang kilay pero imo, di mo na kailangan ng instrument to test. Try to move/relocate your speakers and kung wala ka ng iba pang option but your current setup then maglagay ka na lang ng panel sa left channel para pantay na sila ng right channel. Same reflection/bounce na sila. hth ;) Kahit hanap ka muna ng anything temporary then listen if may effect nga. Pwedeng maging dual purpose yan. Panel sa side ng speaker then cd or bookshelf sa kabila para maging sturdy. Oks ba? ;)
Kung napagpalit mo na ang speakers, try mo naman ang cable ang pagpalitin mo para ang right channel malipat sa kanan. ;)
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Thanks for the inputs sirs. unfortunely limited lang space ko. what would be the max minimum distance nila sa walls para lang mamaximize ko yung distance between speakers? baka kasi todo ko is 7feet pero dikit na sila sa wall, concrete wall sa right, wooden door sa left.
thanks!
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did you try adjusting your balance ?
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did you try adjusting your balance ?
sorry sir, what do you mean by adjusting the balance? thanks!
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on most integrated amps there is a balance knob that decreases the volume of one channel, this is used to center the image in cases where the listener is closer to that side. If you have an AVR, check if it has that feature on the menus..
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better post some pics of your set up sir, it may be easier for us to throw suggestions by then. maganda to, we can learn more from here. this is a very interesting topic. :)
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Thanks for the inputs sirs. unfortunely limited lang space ko. what would be the max minimum distance nila sa walls para lang mamaximize ko yung distance between speakers? baka kasi todo ko is 7feet pero dikit na sila sa wall, concrete wall sa right, wooden door sa left.
thanks!
Your problem might be due to the difference in wall material.
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just saw your setup, your amp and the new CJ does not have Balance controls. You can only play with the position of the left and right speakers.
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just saw your setup, your amp and the new CJ does not have Balance controls. You can only play with the position of the left and right speakers.
thats right sir:)
ive set them now as far as i can, around 5inches fromthe wall, toed in the left speaker and it worked like wonder!
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thats right sir:)
ive set them now as far as i can, around 5inches fromthe wall, toed in the left speaker and it worked liked wonder!
Very nice! :)
My theory is that when you toe in a speaker (or point them at you), you will hear more of the highs and mids because they are directional -- you hear less highs and mids when you listen off-axis and vice-versa. Your right speaker's output was being reinforced by its proximity to the wall. Toeing in the left speaker provided a small boost to its mids and highs and thus made its apparent spl the same as the right.
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Very nice! :)
My theory is that when you toe in a speaker (or point them at you), you will hear more of the highs and mids because they are directional -- you hear less highs and mids when you listen off-axis and vice-versa. Your right speaker's output was being reinforced by its proximity to the wall. Toeing in the left speaker provided a small boost to its mids and highs and thus made its apparent spl the same as the right.
thanks sir Mark.:)
putting them away farther from each other meant that they will be closer sa wall, one thing i noticed naging boomy naman sya
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thanks sir Mark.:)
putting them away farther from each other meant that they will be closer sa wall, one thing i noticed naging boomy naman sya
Honestly, I don't think that putting them farther away was the solution. It was the toeing in. Of course, as you bring the speakers closer to the wall, what always happens is that the bass is boosted, kaya boomy. That's why the best speaker location is at least 4 feet from any wall (actually, even floor!).
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wow. lots of nice tips for speaker positioning here !
i have a question to add though..
the setup..
speakers are 52" from the back wall. the left speaker is in open space while the right is a foot from the right wall. speakers are firing straight into the room. speakers form an equilateral triangle at 7 feet between the speakers and 7 feet to the listening chair.
imaging in my case is quite unstable. the voice can be centered but occasionally the voice will veer to the left or the right on the same track. (i'm listening to mraz's curbside prophet as i type this and some lines are slightly to the left of center as opposed to other lines which are quite centered). oh, other songs naman centered talaga voice. no unstable imaging. i find it "irritating".
thanks for the listen.. and hope some one can cure this unstable imaging..
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Honestly, I don't think that putting them farther away was the solution. It was the toeing in. Of course, as you bring the speakers closer to the wall, what always happens is that the bass is boosted, kaya boomy. That's why the best speaker location is at least 4 feet from any wall (actually, even floor!).
thanks sir mark! Tama i think its the toeing in thay helped. :)
wow for feet from the wall! If i were to follow that magkapatog ma yung speakers ko because my room is just 8 1/2 feet lang ;D
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thanks sir mark! Tama i think its the toeing in thay helped. :)
wow for feet from the wall! If i were to follow that magkapatog ma yung speakers ko because my room is just 8 1/2 feet lang ;D
Hehe. That's the usual limitation of our rooms.
That's also why during the Hifi shows, the exhibitors put the speakers really far from any walls. That's not done for aesthetics, it's for acoustics.
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Have you tried listening to a monaural recording?
Cal's suggestion is the easiest and cheapest way. But as per audiojunkie said, it depends on recording most of the time. :)
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Anchit,
First you need to know how a particular track is actually being presented during playback before you make the test or adjustments.
One way, is to listen through a headphones and verify the imaging of the vocals and the instruments.
OR, get a test CD, like those Chesky test CDs. In these test cds there are tracks testing left and right balance, phasing, depth, imaging, etc.
Check this out in your favorite stores or from your friends:
http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Demonstration-Disc-Critical-Listening/dp/B00002MXUH (http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Demonstration-Disc-Critical-Listening/dp/B00002MXUH)
or
http://www.amazon.com/XLO-Reference-Test-Burn-Recordings/dp/B0000015AL/ref=pd_sim_m_2 (http://www.amazon.com/XLO-Reference-Test-Burn-Recordings/dp/B0000015AL/ref=pd_sim_m_2)
or
http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Demonstration-Disc-Various-Artists/dp/B0016KCBNC/ref=pd_sim_m_14 (http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Demonstration-Disc-Various-Artists/dp/B0016KCBNC/ref=pd_sim_m_14)
When you have these materials, then you can test and adjust, speaker placement and/or acoustic treatment.
BTW, also check all you wires and ensure all are connected consistently.
Hope this helps.
+1M ;)
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try to experiment by putting absorbent material on the conc. wall and observe the effect.... :)
+1 here
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Sounds like there's something wrong with the amp. Most records nasa gitna yung image. Or your room can be the cause, one side absorbing and the other diffusing the sound. Try nearfield listening to eliminate room influence.
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Sounds like there's something wrong with the amp. Most records nasa gitna yung image. Or your room can be the cause, one side absorbing and the other diffusing the sound. Try nearfield listening to eliminate room influence.
that can be done 2-ways, either move the speakers out of the room or move listening position closer to speakers, both will have same effect. :D
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that can be done 2-ways, either move the speakers out of the room or move listening position closer to speakers, both will have same effect. :D
There will be a difference in the time the reflected sounds will reach your ears.
(http://www.decware.com/listen~1.gif)
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Try the diagonal set-up.
(http://www.decware.com/listen~2.gif)
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http://www.google.com.ph/search?aq=1&oq=live+end+dead+end&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=live+end+dead+end+acoustics