PinoyDVD: The Pinoy Digital Video & Devices Community
Home Theater => Audio => Amplifier => Topic started by: jerix on Aug 27, 2004 at 09:33 AM
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Prompted by the review of the members of this forum about the high level of THD of Pioneer receivers, I requested PIONEER to explain the same... heres the Pioneer's response to the issue -- ;)
I am afraid that you are greatly mistaken. Pioneer's AV Receivers perform much better than what you mentioned at 1% THD. The 1% THD is the condition for rating power measurement. That specification (100W @ 1% THD) for rated power means that our product can get 100W rated output power at 1% THD distortion condition.
Regarding the distortion (THD) specification for VSX-D811S-S, its THD specification is less than 0.09% at 90W output power, and the actual reading can get around 0.02% at 90W output power. On the whole, in case of product specification, Pioneer receiver can get high specification.
Please understand that true audiophiles know that specs measurements are not the true indication of a AV Receiver's performance. During the test-bench stage where these specs are generated, it only attempts to quantify a variety of two-dimensional phenomena: amt of distortion, frequency response, noise level, and other factors. But actual music listening is a three-dimensional experience that is vastly more complex than any set of numbers can hope to quantify.
These THD calculations are based on a process called feedback. True THD is calculated with just a set of feedback at a particular point to quantify. Others may use more feedbacks to throw it back into the signal thus measuring a much lower THD.
Please understand that other manufacturers may use different measurements to "put it on paper" to impress/sell their products through. How can one really judge true music quality with mathematical symbols or measurements? It only is true to a certain extent.
Above explanation in blue color are based on Robert Harley's book titled:
"The complete guide to High-End Audio" (Second edition).
As explained by our engineers, in the first few sentences of this mail, 1% THD by Pioneer is the condition for power measurement rating. simply speaking, to get 100W, a 1% THD is measured. It means that 100W is the max point and all Receivers' max point will have "clipping", where THD will shoot up instantaneously.
I implore you...please understand this. If you are still not sure, please feel free to contact me.
Best Regards,
Pioneer Marketing Asia(PMA)
Justin Lee
Your comments please-- :)
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I owned pioneers in the past, discreet drivers. And I never want to go back to them anymore especially when I noted the THD specs. :P Which makes me buy a non-pioneer AV gear instead.
Problem is, I was able to listen to my brother's 509. :o Slamming his 8.3s. Why on earth this pioneer is so good? So I investigate.
Pioneer is not using discreet drivers anymore - they use their own IC (both preamp and amp) - ala gainclone 8) , so inside they look "ampaw" (so what?). Their ICs performs as hybrid amp. Hybrid amp, FYI, was started by Marantz in their popular models, and currently used by NAD AV amps (not the entry). It is switching its biased voltage higher when there is a demand for it, resulting to a good dynamics and amp handling.
IC implementation, like the gainclone, minimized the RFI and EMI interference, thus the sound is cleaner. It is wired so close, so the losses are few. Pioneer is correct in its interpretation of its specs though it only applies in stereo mode. IMHO, the distortion rating is not due to amps circuitry but rather on its limited power supply. In 5-channel config, it may only pump 25-40W/ch, but this is a non issue in typical loud listening that would not disturb neighbors.
Pioneer is also correct in saying it has low distortion figure in typical listening level. Not only that, distortion figure here is a non issue. I heard discreet amps surrendering to the difficult 8.3 drivers (including surplus amps), but with the 509, 8.3 is a chicken. Bass is soooo good, the highs are soooo sweet and and the midrange has the magic with it (with the 8.3). Tubes and phono preamps have high THD rating and yet being followed by many serious audiophiles because it is a listenable animal than low-THD SS amps.
Making a big hoopla with a small THD is like majoring on the minor issues. ??? Listenability should be the major consideration for one considering to own an audio gear.
For those with Pioneer AV gear, VSX-Dx09 up to the current VSX-Dx14, you've got a good gear out there. O0
Anybody wanted to swap with my Yamaha RX-V630? It is now my pre/pro to my regulated LM3886 GC and my 8.3 loved it very much! ;D
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Pioneer's explanation flies in the face of audiophile grade power measurements that many manufacturers like Rotel, HK, NAD, Arcam, Musical Fidelity, Aragon, Bryston, etc follow CONSERVATIVELY. I have no quarrel with anyone who finds their gear sound good on whatever speaker or source, Pioneer included. That's entirely beside the point. Publishng a spec and listening are two different things.
And while it is easy to dismiss such objective specs to that "be all" statement that listening is what counts, the fact remains that Pioneer and many Japanese amp makers can often take the unwary consumers for a ride by publishing trumped up claims that have dubious usefullness in real listening conditions. Ofcourse you rerely listen at those maxed levels. Again, that's beside the point. What if I want to? If they sell a 100wpc receiver, it's is a 100wpc gear. Correct. But at 1%THD. It's an entirely useless specification as you cannot listen to it at that level. So why specify at that level at all? So that it can snare unknowing buyers that what they are getting is a 100wpc receiver? So what's their point advertising a 100wpc gear when it is listenable only up to 90 watts? So they can rightly claim to belong in the league of the 100wpc club?
Compare that to a Rotel or a NAD that claims 100wpc at an audiophile grade 0.03% THD or thereabouts. That same Rotel or NAD, if they followed the 1% THD measurement condition that Pioneer follows, would most likely yield a figure in the 130+Watts area. But they are not hyping their products as a 130wpc reciever or amp. In short, their CONSERVATIVE rating can reasonably satisfy the consumer expectation who may want to listen at 100 watts and not get an ear-fatiguing 1% THD. In short, their published spec is a promise they can deliver satisfactorily.
It is no wonder that I often encounter audiophiles who say their new HK, NAD or Rotel sounds more powerful and fuller than a similarly rated recent Pioneer models. Talk about product differentiation. If Pioneer and similar brands just conform to CONSERVATISM is power rating, then there can be more justice in comparing brands. Their hypes are often a disservice to both the consumer as well as to the brand. In fairness to Pioneer, I've seen earlier models with excellent 0.01% THDs at rated power. That its newer consumer models are power rated at 1% THD seems to be a throwback to the early years of audio.
Oh, and yes, tubes have high THDs. But they are even-ordered THDs. That's why they sound euphonic. But they are anathema to hi-fi purists who do not like anything added to or subtracted from their records, digital or analog. And tubes add a lot of even-ordered THD coloration, even if they sound pleasant. With SS gears, the road to hi-fi is supposed to have solved those pesky THDs with 0.0001% at rated power 10-20 years ago. So whether odd or even harmonics, at those levels, there's virtually nothing added to color the sonics. And then comes 21st century recievers and amps that proclaim their power at an awful 1% THD. I find that not only a mere marketing hype that use unrealistic measurement condtions to extract the highest possible power ratings, but an insult to the hi-fidelity achievement of the last 20 years.
I probably can concede that all this THD brouhaha may not matter at all. It's really not about THDs. It's about CONSERVATIVE promises in advertising and published specs that I can expect to be fullfilled with satisfaction at home. And while there is nothing fraudulent about their inflated claims, it makes me wonder whether supporting a manufacturer that makes such hypes routinely is worth my patronage as a consumer. But that's just me.
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http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html
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Good reading. 8) It really boils down into forgetting those minor specs and start listening and decide.
Pioneer just adhere to various standards of measurements mandated by law on different regions. ;) I think, some region calls for measuring output up to 1%THD. Korean and chinese regions I think should show specs up to 10%THD. In Canada and in the US might have it varied as well. I think Pioneer has none of those suggested motive to deceive - it has been published anyway, and consumer do only need to understand what are they reading all about. There you are, Pioneer did not inflated it. You did. :P By inflating issues not really the fault of Pioneer (talk about regulated measurement standards such as FTC, etc etc). In fact Pioneer will deliver their promises to you at home - 100W at 1%THD - only if you are reading your assignment - if this is what matters to you.
A 1%THD an ear fatiguing issue??!?? ??? Not listenable??!?? I want to be in the high-end sound club, not the 100wpc THD club.
Somehow, I find it the other way around with other hi-end brands. They have to show the masses their 130W at .01THD and they did it at a whopping price ??? - what value is this. A segment of serious audiophile may sometimes laugh off ^-^ such a wattage rating. What's that power for - to heat my food? ;D The other hard core audiophile will only need basically 1 watt! 8) Of course, rockers have their own genre - not my cup of coffee though. O0
I have learned my lessons with all those THD hoopla's using new commercial AVs, surplus amps, etc. In an amp, THD does not tell the whole story - most of the time useless. Even or odd or euphonic alibis is all in the mind - it is listening in the gear which will make it useful. You enjoy listening to your amp until the time you discovered it has high THD - biases!
Anyway, have you measured Pioneer distortion factors - was it odd-order harmonics? Would you believe the IC like LM3886 have low level odd harmonics :o as measured by those intrigued by it? Even tube officionados/amp makers have also jump into these IC (the JLTi, rowlands, etc, blah, blah, blah). And Pioneer user their own IC - who knows what's going on in there (THD wise).
If not, then do your assignment first before you defend anything you dont know yet. :P
To date, I stand on it, Pioneer sounds so good (VSX-D509)! :D Perhaps with the right speaker - the 8.3 that is! ::) The latest series of Pioneer (VSX-Dx14) also maintain the same hybrid implementation (like the NAD 5xx and above). The drawback, when the IC go bad, then its more likely a headache >:( for repair.
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others are still welcome to say their piece on the issue please -- we see a lot of pioneer products in the market and somehow we need to know more about the product. I am not a techie guy so i really can't comment on most of the technical dimensions of the issue, though i am getting a good learning. I just hope we can maintain a very good and healthy discussion - ;D
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Iyong iba talaga ginagawang issue iyong inflated power rating na iyan. ???
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Yup, thanks Nels76 for indicting some manufacturers with your own words: "inflated" power ratings. That's the right word for it.
For people like me who have seen power specs for the past 30 years, that's really a non-issue. Manufacturers have been making "inflated" claims eversince God knows when. Audiophile gears are supposed to be measured under audiophile grade conditions. CONSERVATIVELY. So any gear that doesn't, like measuring power at an unlistenable 1% THD or 10%THD, immediately makes their power claims "inflated."
But it is precisely the purpose of forums such as this to enlighten newbies and the uninformed about such "inflated" claims so they can better judge for themselves what they are getting. So it is hoped that they don't get a 100wpc receiver measured at 1% THD and start to wonder why it couldn't sound as powerful as another receiver measured with the same power at 0.01% THD. Nothing to do with whether you like the sound or not. Much less about listening. It's all about CONSERVATISM in promised specs. It's all about making sure that you get the power at home what the specs have promised in the showroom. Afterall, power is not something you can really test in a showroom. I have yet to see an AV salesman who will allow you to max the volume of their receivers/amps in the showroom. ::)
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FYI. Here's the specs of Pioneer VSX-D509S (Product Year is 2001):
Continous average power output of 100watts* per channel, min., at 8 Ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz with no more than 0.2%** Total Harmonic Distortion (Fronts only).
* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission's Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for Amplifiers.
** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer
This is somewhat a conservative, by Pioneer standards as others may think, power ratings compared to the VSX-D811S.
Maybe somebody can post here the regulation that Amplifier manufactures uses in specifiying the specs of their product para maintindihan pa naming walang masyadong kaalaman sa electronics. And upon reading the regulations, maybe we can say na somebody "inflated" their specs nga or somebody "conservatively" declared their specs nga.
Do all manufacturers use the same brand of Audio Spectrum Analyzer in measuring THDs? Baka naman medyo outdated na yung gamit nila kaya "na-iinflate" ang kanilang specs?
I also own a VSX-D509S AVR. And I would say I'm happy with its sound and its learning remote at a bargain price. Been using it for more than 2 years for both home theater and stereo listening until I was able to hear my old Sony mini-compo (more than 13 years old) again using the same speakers that I use with my Pioneer AVR. The Sony beat the Pioneer hands down (in stereo mode of course). The Sony specs? 220volts 60watts (speaking of power consumption), speakers 6 Ohms. No mention of THDs but clearly have beaten my Pioneer sa ganda ng tunog.
For me, its not the specs that matters most but how your gear sounds to your listening ears. The specs may not sound good but for as long as the sound emanating from your gears sounds great to you, thats all that matters.
This is just me. As the song says "This is me, this is me. This are my gears..." ;D ;D
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FYI. Here's the specs of Pioneer VSX-D509S (Product Year is 2001):
Continous average power output of 100watts* per channel, min., at 8 Ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz with no more than 0.2%** Total Harmonic Distortion (Fronts only).
* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission's Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for Amplifiers.
** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer
Assuming this is true, then this statement of Pioneer on the VSX811 may also be true after all under the Audio Spectrum Analyzer:
Regarding the distortion (THD) specification for VSX-D811S-S, its THD specification is less than 0.09% at 90W output power, and the actual reading can get around 0.02% at 90W output power. On the whole, in case of product specification, Pioneer receiver can get high specification.
However, m just wonderin why Pioneer didnt think about stating this in the specs of their products-- ::) because honestly though i really couldnt notice the effect to the audio quality of that subject 1% THD at 100 wpc, it has become mind bothering knowing that for sometime, considering the price of the unit.
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Oh, Jerix is one, that enjoyed Pioneer all this time, and suddenly thought about the THD - mind bothering - as I said, its all in the mind! ::)
Sorry Jerix, I understood Pioneer when I read their specs. 8) Your problem is, you need to understand :-[ , that when gear have specs like 100W at .1THD, meaning, your gear is guaranteed not to go over .1%THD when you try to pump 100W. Thus, at lower power rating, it can go lower. Thus, your issue is not Pioneer's fault. BTW, some audiophiles like 1%THD in their audio gear. Other audiophiles don't like the .001THD of hi-fi-sh of expensive audio amp.
I may need more power in the future who knows, when my ears start to fail or when I forgot to clean my ears. But THD issue is last in my consideration - it's listenability that counts! ;D
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"Even though spectrum analysers and various other measuring instruments are undeniably more accurate than the human ear, they measure without feeling. They measure without the enjoyment that comes from listening to music, especially music you love. They also don't necessarily detect that "magic" that comes from certain synergies between components. As with all things you get people who would rather believe a machine and you would get people who don't."
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I'm sorry but I don't believe a spectrum analyser is more "accurate" than the human ear. It may allow for quantifying a characteristic but the human ear is much more sensitive to anomolies in the performance of audio equipment. However, the listener may not be able to accurately describe what he's hearing. The Lynn Olson article I posted is a perfect example. It took a highly sophisticated piece of testing equipment to locate the cause of listening fatigue in an amplifier.
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yeah aHobbit, its all in the mind-- ;D the more knowledge it gets the more questions it ask, thats why it is mind bothering. Maybe there are times its better not to learn at all -- but thats life limiting haha!- ;D i am now beginning to understand the issue considering pros and cons, and my mind feels good filling up the void. - ;)
Others are still welcome though to share their thoughts -- :)
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Guys, the spectrum analyzer will just measure amount of distortions. The process is but required under the law of publishing specs to protect consumers. At least it will tell you that it does not have the dreaded 10%THD of avphile1. But even spectrum measurement numbers should be interpreted in the light of what conditions have been applied. That's why in some specs, it also says at 1KHz, in others 20-20KHz, etc etc.
Nels76 and tim is correct. it is just a measurement - of THD, not the musicality or listenability of the amp. period. Then how should we test the musicality and listenability of the amps?? use your EARS and dont read too much specs which amounts to nothing when you are already in the middle of a grand performance of your favorite music!
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FYI. Here's the specs of Pioneer VSX-D509S (Product Year is 2001):
Continous average power output of 100watts* per channel, min., at 8 Ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz with no more than 0.2%** Total Harmonic Distortion (Fronts only).
* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission's Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for Amplifiers.
** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer
This is somewhat a conservative, by Pioneer standards as others may think, power ratings compared to the VSX-D811S.
Maybe somebody can post here the regulation that Amplifier manufactures uses in specifiying the specs of their product para maintindihan pa naming walang masyadong kaalaman sa electronics. And upon reading the regulations, maybe we can say na somebody "inflated" their specs nga or somebody "conservatively" declared their specs nga.
Do all manufacturers use the same brand of Audio Spectrum Analyzer in measuring THDs? Baka naman medyo outdated na yung gamit nila kaya "na-iinflate" ang kanilang specs?
I also own a VSX-D509S AVR. And I would say I'm happy with its sound and its learning remote at a bargain price. Been using it for more than 2 years for both home theater and stereo listening until I was able to hear my old Sony mini-compo (more than 13 years old) again using the same speakers that I use with my Pioneer AVR. The Sony beat the Pioneer hands down (in stereo mode of course). The Sony specs? 220volts 60watts (speaking of power consumption), speakers 6 Ohms. No mention of THDs but clearly have beaten my Pioneer sa ganda ng tunog.
For me, its not the specs that matters most but how your gear sounds to your listening ears. The specs may not sound good but for as long as the sound emanating from your gears sounds great to you, thats all that matters.
This is just me. As the song says "This is me, this is me. This are my gears..." ;D ;D
The FTC regulation on Power OUtput Claims For Amplifiers Utilized in Home Entertainment Products is on this site:
http://www.advertisinglawplaybook.com/documents/Trade_Reg_Rules_432.htm
The rules are so basic and broad that it allowed so much room for amplifer manufacturers to state their respective specifications under various test conditions that, while complying with the FTC regulation only for US-bound products, leaves a lot of variations anywhere else on earth for judicious comparison. Especially when different regions have different standards like the JETA in Japan, DIN and the EIA in Europe.
Hence, one can state the power rating at different THD levels, using different loads (resistive only) or using full bandwidth or just at 1khz, with all channels driven or not. All of these conditions do not violate FTC but yield different numbers. Obviously, for marketing purposes, power rated at 1Khz, into 4 ohms, with only one channel driven, will yield the highest. And you can use peak signals instead of RMS
My point in the preceding discussion is simple. An audiophile grade amplifier, or one that is supposed to aspire to be one, MUST be measured using audiophile-grade levels under realistic listening conditions.
I find it weird that an amp should even be measured at 1% THD. While 1% THD is not audible for some, tests have clearly established the threshold of listening fatigue to start at that level. Clipping always have the effect, unless it is somehow softened like most NAD and tube amplifiers. What's the point? To extract large power ratings?
(I also frown on amps with power claims at 1KHz. Nobody listens only to 1Khz. But you can extract the most power figures when the amp concentrates all its power reserves on just one freqeuncy.)
There are obviously at least two schools of thought in this hobby. One clearly looks at measured specifications as indicative of how the equipment will perform. To them measurements can correlate to what they hear. To them, measuring devices can extract performance measures CONSISTENTLY and without bias, anywhere, anytime.
Another school of thought is actually thoughtless enough to throw all that away and prefers to use their ears. And to them, its the most accurate instrument, even if one cannot hear above 17khz after age 40. :P
Obviously, I don't subscribe to the latter school. For me, the human ear is the most innacurate measuring device on earth. It is a loaded in favor of the brain's preconceptions and biases. You can hear what you want to hear. And the reverse is just as true. An amplifer can sound nice to some poeple, but not to others. The human ear is just another one of those human sensibilities that can make one's garbage another's treasure and vice-versa.
But enough of that, these two schools will always be at each other throat til the end of time. So I'll just leave at that. ;D
And all these discussion is not about listening. You can have your sonic nirvana from a clock radio, for all I care. It often boils down to the personal taste of the listener. But when a supposedly audiophile gear makes certain published claims that mocks traditions of audiophile-grade conservative ratings, I think I owe it many to point this put. Especially when an attempt is so blatant in its marketing savvy to foist on the unwary market, a product that promises to do one thing, when it obviously cannot in the presence of another gear that is conservatively rated. This is not only a disservice to the public, but to the name of the product as well. Why not advertise it rated at 90wpc at 0.02% THD. That way, shoppers can compare it judiciously with another brand rated at the same 90 watt level. Rather than foist it as a 100wpc but at 1% THD, when at such a THD level, it puts the product at a disadvantage with another amp touting 100wpc at 0.02% THD. The rating is unfair both to the consumer and to the brand.
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I'm not taking the side of Sir AV, whom I personally admire, but what I think he's trying to say is, that there are certain standards that must be met in order for one to claim that they belong in a certain group. And he's merely trying to say, that at that THD level, a piece of equiptment cannot be considered audiophile grade because audiophiles have very conservative standards. But I also think that the very reason why manufacturers state those claims is exactly for us to decide what category such would belong. If Juan would say that 1% THD is still acceptable for him, them let him be, and if Jose says that the maximum level of distortion for him is 0.1%, then let him have his way. I think that's where the respect for personal tastes should lie. I also don't think that Pioneer is at fault if they claim such power at a certain THD. That's just what they did, give you the specs. You decide if that's good enough for you or not. Now, what I think is unforgiveable, is claiming untrue specs and performance. Like saying 150Watts at 0.02% THD and finding out in the end that it already produces 1%THD at just 80Watts. That would be the time I'd like to file a suit. ;)
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Thanks, Arthurallanj, for seeing my point of view. Listening and what you get from it are entirely different from publishing specs about a product. If you find a 1% THD amp sounding pleasant, then that's your personal assessment that nobody can question. But I will always question the claims made for an amp or receiver especially if they are suspiciously less than candid or conservative.
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No prob, Sir AV, it was actually you who reminded me to look at the back of amps to make certain their claims of power output. I have long forgotten the advise of a technician friend that to have a bit of an idea of an amp's power output, check for the power consumption at the back and divide that by the number of channels. Although, he reminds me that there are also other factors to consider like amp efficiency and quality. So, although I don't think it's impossible for something to give more than it receives, I still think it's highly unlikely. I also agree that in the early days, Pioneer made great amps. But, we all know what commercialization can do to good things. That's the reason why some of the really good products aren't really that popular. Rotel? NAD? B&W? Velodyne? ;)
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The FTC regulation on Power OUtput Claims For Amplifiers Utilized in Home Entertainment Products is on this site:
http://www.advertisinglawplaybook.com/documents/Trade_Reg_Rules_432.htm
The rules are so basic and broad that it allowed so much room for amplifer manufacturers to state their respective specifications under various test conditions that, while complying with the FTC regulation only for US-bound products, leaves a lot of variations anywhere else on earth for judicious comparison. Especially when different regions have different standards like the JETA in Japan, DIN and the EIA in Europe.
Hence, one can state the power rating at different THD levels, using different loads (resistive only) or using full bandwidth or just at 1khz, with all channels driven or not. All of these conditions do not violate FTC but yield different numbers. Obviously, for marketing purposes, power rated at 1Khz, into 4 ohms, with only one channel driven, will yield the highest. And you can use peak signals instead of RMS
I find it weird that an amp should even be measured at 1% THD. While 1% THD is not audible for some, tests have clearly established the threshold of listening fatigue to start at that level. Clipping always have the effect, unless it is somehow softened like most NAD and tube amplifiers. What's the point? To extract large power ratings?
Translation: FTC and other standard bodies are weird. ;D I just shake my head - pity you!
My point in the preceding discussion is simple. An audiophile grade amplifier, or one that is supposed to aspire to be one, MUST be measured using audiophile-grade levels under realistic listening conditions.
Translation: Listening to 100watts are realistic listening conditions!!?!! ;D Still shaking my head!
The FTC regulation on Power OUtput Claims For Amplifiers Utilized in Home Entertainment Products is on this site:
http://www.advertisinglawplaybook.com/documents/Trade_Reg_Rules_432.htm
Obviously, I don't subscribe to the latter school. For me, the human ear is the most innacurate measuring device on earth. It is a loaded in favor of the brain's preconceptions and biases. You can hear what you want to hear. And the reverse is just as true. An amplifer can sound nice to some poeple, but not to others. The human ear is just another one of those human sensibilities that can make one's garbage another's treasure and vice-versa.
Obviously, the measuring device will not be the one listening to the music - it's your ears - ;D.
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And all these discussion is not about listening. You can have your sonic nirvana from a clock radio, for all I care. It often boils down to the personal taste of the listener. But when a supposedly audiophile gear makes certain published claims that mocks traditions of audiophile-grade conservative ratings, I think I owe it many to point this put. Especially when an attempt is so blatant in its marketing savvy to foist on the unwary market, a product that promises to do one thing, when it obviously cannot in the presence of another gear that is conservatively rated. This is not only a disservice to the public, but to the name of the product as well. Why not advertise it rated at 90wpc at 0.02% THD. That way, shoppers can compare it judiciously with another brand rated at the same 90 watt level. Rather than foist it as a 100wpc but at 1% THD, when at such a THD level, it puts the product at a disadvantage with another amp touting 100wpc at 0.02% THD. The rating is unfair both to the consumer and to the brand.
Why do Pioneer have to subscribe to your idea. They know buyers know how to read specs if they care about specs. If they dont read, they dont care about the specs. If they dont know how to read, I pity them too!
Another school of thought is actually thoughtless enough to throw all that away and prefers to use their ears. And to them, its the most accurate instrument, even if one cannot hear above 17khz after age 40. :P
And you still crave for THD .001% !!?!! ;D . Cleaning your ear and not subjecting it to 100W music daily will prolong the sensitivity of your ear. ;D
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There are obviously at least two schools of thought in this hobby.
Yup! One is like you who reads the paper, and can tell right away that gear is not audiophile grade because the THD blah blah blah! This is the paperphile! ;D
The other one connects the real gear to his speaker, put the test CD, and listen - these are the audiophiles! ::)
and yes, the third kind - the one that looks at the price. if expensive it is audiophile grade. :P
and oh, the fourth one, if constructed with exotic materials, it is audiophile grade. :-[
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hmmm... the discussion here really heating up... as long as we're all bros here and no trash talking i guess u can continue arguing (hmmm kahit di ako yung mods)... heheh.. . but im learning a lot on this thread...
just my isang kusing... i guess its all politics... the same argument happens to honda crv when they categorize this suv into auv (10 seater) to escape from the excise tax here in the philippines!!!... thats makes crv the best selling auv then... eventhough its not capable of handling 10 passengers, mabili pa rin... kse mura and at the same time HONDA!!... hmmm... now do u think honda is cheating here?... BIG NO!!!... why?.. coz they found a loop hole on the rule and they take advantage of it!!....the same thing with pioneer... they're just following what's on the rules and take advantage of it... all politics!!!
my point???... it all boils down to the listener himself... he have to do his assignment first before buying... specs should only be secondary... your ears first!!!... if ur happy with the sound u pass the first test... next is the specs!!..... is it matching ur system?... hmmmm.... i guess i'll leave that to u!!... THAT'S UR ASSIGNMENT!!... NOT MINE!!! (unless classmate tayo!!...heheh)... my isang kusing!!!!
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Listening is entirely different from publishing specs. Like i said, if you are happy with a distorting amp, fine. Afterall, I know some people can be content with just their clock radios. But publishing a spec to trap unwary customers into thinking they have an audiophile grade 100wpc amp, when it's measured under non-audiophile grade conditions, is another thing. But I am not really surprised that people with biases over the brand can't distinguish between the two.
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another way of viewing that 1% THD is that:--- "you can pump the amp up to its 100w limit but you get a 1% THD." Pumping the amp to its maximum is not normal but should there be a moment that u do it, so u get that 1% THD.
I havent tested that level of listening so i may not have experienced yet exposed to a 1% THD. In reality only few here have experienced being exposed to a 1% THD -- unless somebody would admit it so--- ::)
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makisali lang po.
yung konzert ko nga eh 500watts per channel yung nakalagay sa scpecs. tapos nakalagay sa specs 10% TDH. :o nung binili ko yun. that tmie di ko pa alam tong pinoydvd. all i want is power. so nung nakita ko na ganun yun. then pinakinggan ko ok naman sa pandinig ko. so binili ko yun. not knowing kung ano yung mga tdh nayan. basta 500-500 sya and nagandahan ako sa narinig ko. but now. if ever na bibili siguro ako. alam ko na kung ano ung mga yun. pero ngayong lagi na ako sa pinoy dvd. i think it doesnt matter its TDH or what so ever. kasi di ba auditioning of equipment ang pinapalaganap natin dito bago bumili. so mataas man TDH if is it good to our ears. oks sa atin. :) i think oks lang na ilagay nung pioneer yung 100w 1% TDH. di naman nila nilalagay sa specs na audiophile gears yung kanila. so yung bibili oks lang na 100w na may 1% tdh. :) I think hindi naman panloloko sa tao yun. afterall kaya pa nya magbigay ng 100w na music. 1% distortion nga lang..... :)
my 2 cents and 2 storks candy. ;D
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Mga Sir,
Just want to share this to all of you. This is actually taken from the Jolida website. So bahala na kayo mag digest and interpret.
1. Before you go to the store analyze what you need. Do you want the system to play music, movies or both? What room is the system going into and what are the physical constraints? Determine who will be listening and under what circumstances? What is your budget going to be? In essense, you need to have an idea of how you are going to be using the system.
2. Look and compare. Statistics report the average man, woman or child in the US listens to a minimum of 20 hours of audio and audio/video a week. Over a ten year period, that adds up to a minimum of 10,000 hours per person or 40,000 hours for a family of four. To give a reference point, a calendar year is made up of 8,700 hours. The average person will expend over a ten year period, $6,000 for cable TV or DSS and $2,400 for a connection to the internet. Given these factors, it is prudent to chose your system carefully. Go to the mass merchants to see what they have, but I would also suggest going to the speciality audio stores as well.
3. Trust your Ears. The human ear is a unique instrument that is able to discern minute sound factors. Most individuals have the ability to distinguish whether a person is happy, sad or angry through sound. Can you perceive this type of nuance in music or audio/video demonstrations? Is this a system you can listen to for hours without fatiguing your ears? Ask yourself, is the sound smooth and clear? Does it sound natural or is it muffled? In the better systems, you will not be able to tell if the sound is coming from the speakers.
4. Be careful of the myths and the sound bytes. Myths, such as, 100 watts is the right power for an amplifier or that Total Harmonic Distortion is the most important specification, or that rumble in the speaker is highly desirable are not really relevant. These types of specifications are not guarantees of good sound. Beware of the extravagant claims such as the bass is a rendition of Krackatow erupting. You might end up with a system that makes everything sound like a volcano. Be wary of the sound bytes such as "this is an all digital system." No one hears in digital, we all hear in analog (sound waves).
5. Develop Some Testing Criteria. This is setting standards by which you will judge the equipment you demonstrate. Use CD music that you are familiar with. One test criteria that I always use is playing the system at low, medium and high volume levels. Although seemingly simplistic, this is a key issue for the average individual (try playing music loud at midnight on a Wednesday night). If the system is clear at low volume levels, rich and textured at mid-levels and dynamic and smooth at loud levels, you may be looking at the system for you.
6. Obsolescence. The latest technology or the greatest features will not necessarily be the standard for the future. Obsolescence can be tempered with a system that has high quality sound. In other words, if it has a high performance sound, it will still have high performance sound five years from now.
Lets all be cool.. what we all want here is information di ba?
just my 2 cent... (kaya nga lagi kung nilalagyan nito kasi baka iba interpretation ng iba) Cheers.....
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Listening is entirely different from publishing specs. Like i said, if you are happy with a distorting amp, fine. Afterall, I know some people can be content with just their clock radios. But publishing a spec to trap unwary customers into thinking they have an audiophile grade 100wpc amp, when it's measured under non-audiophile grade conditions, is another thing. But I am not really surprised that people with biases over the brand can't distinguish between the two.
From the start, this is my reading of your posts:
Pioneer published specs of 100Wpc at 1% THD.
conclusion:
(1) it is not audiophile grade
(2) they are deceiving the public
(3) they are just trying to join the 100W club
And I ask,
(1) did you listen to Pioneer models
(2) Did Pioneer misled with their specs by hiding it
(3) did you accounted what made up their distortion factors?
And you answer lots of techies that is not really something that contributes to audiophilia brouhaha nor answers the direct questions.
Audiophile system is made up of synergies of different components:
(0) your program materials
(1) your source
(2) your amp
(3) your interconnects
(4) your speakers
(5) and then your EARS
The High-end audiophile does not talk about DEnon Onkyo Marantz yamaha Pioneer NAD - they have names I never heard before. Some into tubes. Some into DIY. All these brand names are in fact marketing strategies - some companies owned 2 or three of these competing brands.
Anyway, I owned Pioneers before - and I did not like it, though it is discreet drivers. But lately, my brother put a different speakers in it - oh boy, why did I not heard that thing before that way.
I heard the VSX 509 bought surplus ;D with cheap wharfedale 8.3 (that beats all other british namebrands ::) ) - and I guess the 912 is able as well as I think Pioneer just made use of the same amp strategies in its entire line, except for its AX series (which belong to another political THX marketing gimmick just like the rest of amp brands).
Hey eksayl, stop mo pala bidding. Would suggest sana if you want to swap with my Yamaha RX-V630. I think they are on the same price level and generation release. still wishing ::).
Yes we want information - and I would say valid and useful information.
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Guys,
Hope that everybody would not be too technical in deciding whats good and bad gears remember we buy this Amps for music/sound they produce....
Pagmaganda ba sound ng setup mo pakikita mo sa friends mo specification nya.. usually hindi your friends will check the brand and model... ;D ;D
Enjoy the music.... technical naku...
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;D ;D ;D
I love to listen.... and learn. ;)
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Mga Sir,
Just want to share this to all of you. This is actually taken from the Jolida website. So bahala na kayo mag digest and interpret.
1. Before you go to the store analyze what you need. Do you want the system to play music, movies or both? What room is the system going into and what are the physical constraints? Determine who will be listening and under what circumstances? What is your budget going to be? In essense, you need to have an idea of how you are going to be using the system.
2. Look and compare. Statistics report the average man, woman or child in the US listens to a minimum of 20 hours of audio and audio/video a week. Over a ten year period, that adds up to a minimum of 10,000 hours per person or 40,000 hours for a family of four. To give a reference point, a calendar year is made up of 8,700 hours. The average person will expend over a ten year period, $6,000 for cable TV or DSS and $2,400 for a connection to the internet. Given these factors, it is prudent to chose your system carefully. Go to the mass merchants to see what they have, but I would also suggest going to the speciality audio stores as well.
3. Trust your Ears. The human ear is a unique instrument that is able to discern minute sound factors. Most individuals have the ability to distinguish whether a person is happy, sad or angry through sound. Can you perceive this type of nuance in music or audio/video demonstrations? Is this a system you can listen to for hours without fatiguing your ears? Ask yourself, is the sound smooth and clear? Does it sound natural or is it muffled? In the better systems, you will not be able to tell if the sound is coming from the speakers.
4. Be careful of the myths and the sound bytes. Myths, such as, 100 watts is the right power for an amplifier or that Total Harmonic Distortion is the most important specification, or that rumble in the speaker is highly desirable are not really relevant. These types of specifications are not guarantees of good sound. Beware of the extravagant claims such as the bass is a rendition of Krackatow erupting. You might end up with a system that makes everything sound like a volcano. Be wary of the sound bytes such as "this is an all digital system." No one hears in digital, we all hear in analog (sound waves).
5. Develop Some Testing Criteria. This is setting standards by which you will judge the equipment you demonstrate. Use CD music that you are familiar with. One test criteria that I always use is playing the system at low, medium and high volume levels. Although seemingly simplistic, this is a key issue for the average individual (try playing music loud at midnight on a Wednesday night). If the system is clear at low volume levels, rich and textured at mid-levels and dynamic and smooth at loud levels, you may be looking at the system for you.
6. Obsolescence. The latest technology or the greatest features will not necessarily be the standard for the future. Obsolescence can be tempered with a system that has high quality sound. In other words, if it has a high performance sound, it will still have high performance sound five years from now.
Lets all be cool.. what we all want here is information di ba?
just my 2 cent... (kaya nga lagi kung nilalagyan nito kasi baka iba interpretation ng iba) Cheers.....
bro -- this is very good and ideal. Pero sa tingin ko konti lang talaga sa mga pinoy ang ganito kabusisi, unless u have some background. Most of the time we depend on the money we have on hand. thats why there are times we end up getting our second or third choice.
On my case, I based my choice on the features vis-s-vis the price of the Pioneer. The quality of the sound of the Pioneer is not an issue at all for me. I was just bothered lately about the way others appreciate its claimed 1% THD level @ 100WPC. As i browsed upon comments against comments I now have developed a personal conclusion "Not to be bothered with that technical measurement, because afterall i have not yet tested pumping the amp into its maximum level of 100WPC to be exposed to that 1% THD.
I am not an AUDIOPHILE and if i will be one maybe in the future or in the next lifetime, i would not expect myself to be liking a sound level equivalent to a a max power of 100 watts in my listening room- ;D
Bro Lance - The 10% THD @ 500 watts of your Konzert amp seems to be equivalent to a 1% THD @ 100 watts to a certain level. Now if u are only operating that at a level lower than 100 watts per channel, maybe u would get a THD level lower than 1% -- di ba? ;)
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Bro Lance - The 10% THD @ 500 watts of your Konzert amp seems to be equivalent to a 1% THD @ 100 watts to a certain level. Now if u are only operating that at a level lower than 100 watts per channel, maybe u would get a THD level lower than 1% -- di ba? ;)
Posible yung sinasabi mo na yan dre. Kasi dun sa manual eh walang nakalagay kung paano nakuha yung 500 watts daw na yun at 10% distortion. Maybe at 100w it has only 1% TDH. But my point is pag nakalagay na 500 watts at kaya nyang mag pump ng 500 watts kahit ano pang distortion level, still they are not deceiving their customers. :) di bah? Ako nga solved na ako dun dati eh 10% TDH pla yun pinakikinggan ko. ;D ngayon pinakikinggan ko ulit yung konzert ko. distorted na nga sa pandinig ko. ::) naapektuhan na siguro yung tenga ko dahil sa kaiisip dun. pumasok na yung psychological factor. :)
pero for sure bro. maganda pa rin yang tunog nyan pioneer mo. ginagalang ko yang brand na yan. :) cheers.
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bro -- this is very good and ideal. Pero sa tingin ko konti lang talaga sa mga pinoy ang ganito kabusisi, unless u have some background. Most of the time we depend on the money we have on hand. thats why there are times we end up getting our second or third choice.
On my case, I based my choice on the features vis-s-vis the price of the Pioneer. The quality of the sound of the Pioneer is not an issue at all for me. I was just bothered lately about the way others appreciate its claimed 1% THD level @ 100WPC. As i browsed upon comments against comments I now have developed a personal conclusion "Not to be bothered with that technical measurement, because afterall i have not yet tested pumping the amp into its maximum level of 100WPC to be exposed to that 1% THD.
Precisely! siguro 90 % of the consumer out there will not do this method. And you're also right "kung ano lang ang kaya ng bulsa mo". Most buyer will just specify the wattage of the amplifier or receiver he wants, kadalasan nga PMPO pa binibigay na wattage. Sasabihin nung salesman "Sir itong Sony namin 10,0000 watts (pmpo pala)." Nothing wrong with that statement and sony's probably telling the truth, I think what's not good is it is misleading.
Pagkatapos pag dating mo sa bahay ang yabang mo sa kaibigan mo na may ex. NAD or ROTEL na amplifier rated at 250 watts at .08%THD shoot out tayo ng system mo. Then "FIRE" oopss sino kaya sa palagay nyo nanalo?
Kung sa tingin nung SONY user panalo sya, eh di very good. Kung talo naman sya, charge it to experience di ba. Sad to say many consumers have to charge this mistake to experience.
I think this is what Av_phile1 means regarding publishing of specifications. And as I've mentioned most buyer just look at WATTS and never even bother to listen or compare with other products.
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In my attempt to try and cool things down, let me say something.
My conclusions so far, in my most objective thought, is that there are different schools you can subscribe to. One is, the school for those who take things technically and do not just rely on their ears, although that doesn't mean they don't enjoy listening to their equiptment, or for that matter, enjoy it more or less compared to others. People who never leave things to chance and strive to make things better for them through this method, being technical. People who rely on figures, stats and specs to help them decide. This is where they are comfortable at.
Another school is the school for those who trust their instincts and preferences more than just numbers and figures. People who are more tolerant with subjectivity. And I'm quite sure no one in this category would say they don't enjoy just listening to their equiptment. People who learn by experiencing what they like and what they don't like. That's how they decide and that's where they are comfortable at.
Now, let me just point out that nobody forces anybody to subscribe to one school, and I haven't heard anybody say that the knowledge they offer is absolute and unquestionable, at least so far. Remember, everybody in the world used to think that the world was flat? This is exactly how the search for the truth is done. Questioning. Nobody here is saying that I am right and you are wrong, at least that's how I think it should be. Ever heard of the saying, "Take everything with a grain of salt"? That is it. Don't just take anybody's word for it, weigh and consider. You might be the only one who believes a certain thought, but hey, everybody else in the world could be wrong.
Let us not forget that we are all individuals here and no two people here are trapped in one body and share the same pair of ears or brain. That's why we're all different. Some people are just sharing ideas and sharing beliefs that they deem right. It's up for us to decide what we should believe and what we should subscribe to. In the end, it would be for the best, for everybody.
To show how right both could be, the first school could say that 5 is 5, and not 5.5 or 6 or any other number for that matter. For the second, has anyone measured what emotions are? Or at least quantify them maybe. For me, there are things that can and need to be measured or put on paper, and there are things that need for us to rely on our own instincts. So I'm what you may call, Ecclectic, I always look at it from everybody's point of view and decide, oftentimes integrating both. Even music offers both, a part of a song that has to be done as it was written, and a part where expression is allowed(adlibs). So why the animosity? ???
In closing, let's not forget respect for everybody's differences and preferences, and humanity. I hope I helped. Thanks for indulging me, Sir Moderator. :)
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If there's really a school for this, I'll enroll on both schools. That way I'll know the specs. and I'll learn how to listen.
Kayo kung papipiliin kayo ng babae sino pipiliin nyo? Maganda o Mabait o Magaling magluto. I'll pick yung Magandang Mabait at Magaling mag luto kung pwede di ba?
cheers....
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If there's really a school for this, I'll enroll on both schools. That way I'll know the specs. and I'll learn how to listen.
Kayo kung papipiliin kayo ng babae sino pipiliin nyo? Maganda o Mabait o Magaling magluto. I'll pick yung Magandang Mabait at Magaling mag luto kung pwede di ba?
cheers....
Ditto! Add to that Matalino pa.
Why just enjoy meat or just vegetables, when you can enjoy both. Why just enjoy the sun or the moon when you can experience both? Don't forget people in the artic and antarctic enjoy the sun and the moon at the same time very often. People could never be the exactly the same, because if they were, what's the point in creating more than one? ;D
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Guys,
My point exactly. ;)
;D
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If there's really a school for this, I'll enroll on both schools. That way I'll know the specs. and I'll learn how to listen.
Kayo kung papipiliin kayo ng babae sino pipiliin nyo? Maganda o Mabait o Magaling magluto. I'll pick yung Magandang Mabait at Magaling mag luto kung pwede di ba?
cheers....
xactly! ;D
It is like saying I knew (spec-wise) what I picked up ::) and I heard that it sound right with my speakers (sound-wise) ;D . Never on the paper :P .
I encounter a guy which I found too knowledgable in all amp topologies (tiklop ako ika nga), and deep into tubes, and familiar with high-end topologies such as SS LTP (long tailed pair etc etc). But he installed a mini-compo of somewhat, with few modification on the speakers, and will bet it will beat most commercial hifi in the market.
Does he ever knew the specs? dont know! but he knew how to listen to a good sound gear.
So arthurallanj, there are 3 school of thoughts - the third is maintaining the balance - objective and subjective - not on either the extremes.
Pasko na po! Peace na tayo!
Merry Christmas to all. My bonus reserved for Wharf 9 ;D (OT - sorry)
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aHobbit,
Advance congrats on your Wharfs! More power on your gc amps! ;D
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Pagkatapos pag dating mo sa bahay ang yabang mo sa kaibigan mo na may ex. NAD or ROTEL na amplifier rated at 250 watts at .08%THD shoot out tayo ng system mo. Then "FIRE" oopss sino kaya sa palagay nyo nanalo?
I think this is what Av_phile1 means regarding publishing of specifications. And as I've mentioned most buyer just look at WATTS and never even bother to listen or compare with other products.
This has been my fault before. And when I shared my findings with my brothers who are equally wilab (baliw) sa sound, we admit so big mistakes in choosing sound gears. This is the same experience like Joe rasmussen of JLTi and others. We have this taboo concept going on in our minds.
When we see mini-compo with PMPO thing, we automatically kick 'em off our minds as non-audiophile. This is me. But I did my assignment and test these "no-k" gears only lately since I purchased them cheap. So people with no knowledge pick these things up, people deep into techies dont pick this up. Good for me as this will drive the vendor to bring the price down. ;D
I encounter people, and I tested it personally on what I have purchased myself, we (the so-called audiophile) maybe looking or doing it the wrong way. We check power rating, THD, and so on, and never sat down to compare sound - compo or mini como or any. To us, the label marking is enough. You say other people are fooled because they buy system based on PMPO. But you also do that, you buy items based on power ratings/branding/THD. Never on sound comparison - but on recommendation of others who are not also that critical listeners. The former was deceived and pay a low price. The latter was deceived paying the high price. Why? Very few audiophile, especially those listening, will not engage in this discussion - and even some Pinoydvd members uses mini-compo as main music system.
Funny! I also looked at them this way - funny. until I knew why. I myself owned a prestigious brand model AV, surplus integ weighing 26kg, sansui alpha/decade series and yamaha AVR1000. I also owned SONY surplus integrated amp 20Wpc based on STK, the kenwood top of the line mini compo DV9 - 68Wpc at .1% THD and 80Wpc at 10%THD with NAD/ Marantz/ Pioneer like hybrid implementation based on STK 411-220E - and the LM3886 GC I built (for whatever THD it has). My conclusion is no different from another british audiophile - the germanium installed on your commercial amps can not easily match some IC-based or miniaturized amps.
And bow ako sa Pioneer - they did use IC. 8) . Are they good? let the pioneer owners speak up! But be careful not to bust your amps.
BTW, the soft-clipping is distortion itself. ;D
I am technical myself - but I can easily be beaten up by those who really listens. 'Yan po ang aking karanasan - Kuya Cesar ;D
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aHobbit,
Advance congrats on your Wharfs! More power on your gc amps! ;D
Thanks! Solved na ko sa 8.3 ko tapos manunukso sila ng 9.6? magkano kaya? gandang tingnan, taas sensitivity, laki drivers (wala ba yellow pa rin?!?) looks like the evo series with freq dampening enclosure - hindi na matatapos ang SARS kapag ganito ng ganito - vicious cycle. Ganda sa papel - ano kaya tunog?
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Thanks! Solved na ko sa 8.3 ko tapos manunukso sila ng 9.6? magkano kaya? gandang tingnan, taas sensitivity, laki drivers (wala ba yellow pa rin?!?) looks like the evo series with freq dampening enclosure - hindi na matatapos ang SARS kapag ganito ng ganito - vicious cycle. Ganda sa papel - ano kaya tunog?
I'm sure madami nagaantay dyan. ;D OT ;D ;D ;D
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Bro aHobbit,
Actually there are a lot of things in life na hindi pwede black and white lang, gray shades in between may be present. So we couldn't actually say na three lang, there are the extremes, and there's a whole lot in between, differentiated only by how far each is more inclined to either extremes. Merry Christmas!! Ber na kasi e. ;D
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Thanks! Solved na ko sa 8.3 ko tapos manunukso sila ng 9.6? magkano kaya? gandang tingnan, taas sensitivity, laki drivers (wala ba yellow pa rin?!?) looks like the evo series with freq dampening enclosure - hindi na matatapos ang SARS kapag ganito ng ganito - vicious cycle. Ganda sa papel - ano kaya tunog?
hehehehe nagaabang ka rin pala bro... Ganda nga ng 9 series with the new look and design hope it come with good sound also.. ;D ;D ;D OTpla
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having just recently purchased a Pioneer AVR owner , i would like to share my thoughts .
i've had 2 HTIB systems before , a Yamaha Cinemastation and a Pioneer HTZ-77DVD. I initially went the HTIB route because the size of our place was limited. i upgraded to a new Pioneer Display and DVD player , and it was really disconcerting to watch DVDs with superb picture quality but the sound quality was left behind .
so i found PinoyDVD while browsing for a new Speaker-AVR combination. I found the speakers we liked ( my wife and I ) and so the hunt for the AVR began. There's not a lot of threads devoted to pioneer AVRs here on PinoyDVD , plus I also read some posts regarding their 1% THD ... so that initially gave me second thoughts on purchasing a Pioneer AVR.
but I did went for the Pioneer because of the following reasons :
1. theyr'e the only AVRs I can afford that has both the ILink and USB inputs... I figured I'd save some bucks on interconnects.
plus it will be ready for future home audio streaming possibilities.
2. discussions in the AVForum and the AVSForum about them are not discouraging.
3. i've auditioned them along with HK, Denon , Yamaha and Onkyo and as far as my ears can tell , there's not a big difference. Of course you have to take in consideration the speakers , the auditioning room , etc.
4. i've had no problems with my Pioneer car stereos , and HTIBs before .
5. and as far as the 1% THD issue is concerned . I didn't think my ears are sensitive enough to distinguish between 0.01 ( 1% ) and 0.008 ( 0.8% ) and 0.005 ( 0.5% ) THDs.
plus, i plan to get another pure analog system for 2 channel audio-only listening .... now if i can only find a spare room for that :)
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another way of viewing that 1% THD is that:--- "you can pump the amp up to its 100w limit but you get a 1% THD." Pumping the amp to its maximum is not normal but should there be a moment that u do it, so u get that 1% THD.
I havent tested that level of listening so i may not have experienced yet exposed to a 1% THD. In reality only few here have experienced being exposed to a 1% THD -- unless somebody would admit it so--- ::)
On blind A/B test, 1% THD is almost indistinguishable from 3% THD test during short term listening. Same with phase shifts which are also inaudible. But on long term listening tests, 1% THD is credited for listening fatigue. That's essentially what distignuishes between live performance and recorded. There are no THDs in live instruments, so no listening fatigue. But most playback systems do have.
I do not know where most of the guys in this forum come from. But I come from an old school where CLEAN power is the most telling factor in arriving at the sound pressure levels we crave for. 1% is a mouthful. No SS audiophile equipment will ever publish its power specs at that level.
Apparently most people can get by listening comfortably at 1-5wpc. That's essentailly what most normal room listening levels of 60-75db will require. That's quite far from the 100wpc advertised and measured at an awful 1% THD. So i am not surprise that such gears can sound nice at low levels. Even 1wpc SETs can sound filling enough.
But my contention remains. Listening is beside the point of the argument. Playback gears are technical equipment. And Technical specifications are what made those gears in the drawing board. They will stand and fall by those specifications. That's the first thing I look for when purchasing gears. If they conform to my minimum expectations, then I audition. Not before. A spec with a 1% THD goes directly to the waste backet. It's a crying shame really. And like I said, it's a disservice both to the customer and to the brand. It may have sounded good. But by hyping its power spec on non-audiophile grade measurement conditions, it shoots its own foot. Any gear can have awesome power measures the higher the THD gets. But conservatively measured gears don't. Conservative measurement is one of the hallmarks of an excellent equipment. How they sound is another hallmark altogether.
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I do not know where most of the guys in this forum come from. But I come from an old school where CLEAN power is the most telling factor in arriving at the sound pressure levels we crave for. 1% is a mouthful. No SS audiophile equipment will ever publish its power specs at that level.
Sorry, we did not come from old school when all these audio secrets were held by high-end & expensive audio manufacturers. 8)
We came from the new school which utilizes the internet to disseminate correct knowledge and methodologies, and understood which matters most. It's not about reading, it's all about listening experience. ;D
Now I understand you clearly. ;D
Welcome to the Internet Age, avphile1!
Merry Christmas! and Peace on earth too! ;)
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"But on long term listening tests, 1% THD is credited for listening fatigue"
Yup i certainly agree... that the 1% THD may bring that listening fatigue---- but as i have said, that 1% THD is equivalent to the amp’s full 100 watts of power -- many of us would not attempt to pump the amp to that level because that is too much i think for an ordinary room.
For me depending on my mood, i go only up to 75% of the amps power or 75w of its max 100 w - thats the loudest level i have gone so far. On the receivers display that level is about 35 to 30 DBs, 95db being the lowest and 1db the highest -- or the other way around, i dont know if that’s the way it should be interpreted. My room can no longer handle sound levels higher than that i think.
Based on the equation given by Pioneer (90w power=0.02 % THD / 100w power=1%THD ) which they apply for their amps, when listening at that 75 w level, i probably am expose only to a THD level even lower than 0.02% - a level which the human ear may not be able to discern. Higher than 90% of the amps power, when clipping begins, the level of THD abruptly climbs up to 1% until you reach 100 watts of power, the maximum power the amp can go.
Maybe what is good with the other amps like the HK, NAD, etc. is the fact that they limited or peg the maximum power level of the amp on or even below the level where its THD starts to climb. That’s why many of these amps are tagged only as 80wpc at .02% THD, though in reality maybe, they can also go as high as 100wpc, but with a higher THD rating. Maybe if they would do that, they would have that spec similar to that of the Pioneer. But obviously, they provided the lesser measurement of 80wpc at .02% THD – which would be very attractive to electronically-learned customers because of that very low 0.02% THD level, but not to the uninitiated like me, who are usually attracted by that 100wpc advertised power of the amp.
In this case, it is just like Pioneer saying “you will have 2 slices of bread, but with an equivalent 1%carbohydrates, and Denon or HK saying, “you will have 1 slice of bread, but with .5% of carbohydrates. Under the two situations people would react differently, depending on their needs. If you are hungry, of course you would choose the 2 slices of bread but with 1% carbohydrates. However, if you are health conscious, maybe you would choose the 1 slice of bread because you would only get .5% of carb. If both will eat the bread immediately, the first would get that 1% carb, while the other one would get that .5% carb. However, the first may still choose to be healthy by not eating the 2 slices at once. Maybe, he may follow the diet of the other, by just eating 1 slice of bread to have .5% of carb only. At least he can save the other one as reserve in case he gets hungry.
Just like that 100 wpc with 1% THD, amp therefore, you can choose not to pump its full power, because by doing that you get 1% THD. If you want .02% THD only, just like the other brands, then you will have to control your volume-- ;)
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I have no quarel with what you are saying Jerix. You won't get that 1% THD at normal listening levels. Like I said, most normal listening levels require no more than 5 watts per channel of continuous power. So you shouldn't reach that 1% THD level.
My caveat is in the shameless publication of power specs from otherwise reputable vendors that can mislead. Why specify at all when the measurement condition is entirely unlistanable? They are in fact shooting themselves in their own foot. Compared to a receiver rated at the same 100wpc but at 0.02% THD, they'd look disadvantaged unnecessarily.
You're absolutely correct in saying that an 80wpc amp rated at 0.02% THD will most likely have the same 1% THD when giving out 100wpc. But I don't see them advertising their product as a 100wpc amp, do they? Just 80wpc in their brochures. But they certainly have the license to prcolaim so, if they want to compete in the market for 100wpc receivers and win unwary customers who are looking for 100wpc amps. See my point?
That's all I'm saying. I am not questioning the quality of Pioneer as some twerp in this thread would put in my mouth. I was in fact shocked to see their specs last year, knowing the excellent specs I've seen on Pioneer receivers previously. What's their point? Are they after the market for 100wpc recievers? At the expense of a conservative measurement? It's really unfortunate. Pioneer makes excellent products that need not be hyped.
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;D i certainly got your point bro av_phile1 -- It is clear to me that the whole thing is a marketing strategy to attract customers with that "100 wpc" spec, knowing that only few customers usually go further ascertaining the other numerical values of the equipment, such as this THD.
but personally i dont consider it misleading because it represents the whole truth about that 100wpc because truely, when they say 100wpc, they also say that that is equivalent to 1% of THD.
Truely, the first time i heard about this THD measurement from you i was then bothered. This prompted me to open this thread. Our discussion in this thread really have helped me understand this THD issue. So thanks ! ;D
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but personally i dont consider it misleading because it represents the whole truth about that 100wpc because truely, when they say 100wpc, they also say that that is equivalent to 1% of THD.
xactly my point against the questionable judgment of avphile1 which can not stand in court. ;D
Is this statement / (pioneer) publication / declaration difficult to understand? ???
Or avphile1 wanted this in the vernacular? ;D
-3db is equiv to 50W in a 100W amp. 8)
Hey, jerix, have a tricky question for you,
which is unlistenable in the typical home listening - is it the 1% THD or the 100W sound? ;D
hint: the listener has normal hearing and is still young - not deaf and old! ;D
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My caveat is in the shameless publication of power specs from otherwise reputable vendors that can mislead. Why specify at all when the measurement condition is entirely unlistanable? They are in fact shooting themselves in their own foot. Compared to a receiver rated at the same 100wpc but at 0.02% THD, they'd look disadvantaged unnecessarily.
Translation: ;D
A promdi went to an orderly urban area. He has to cross the street. O0
a signage says "CROSS IN THE PEDESTRIAN LANE" :-[
So he cross the street, but not in the pedestrian lane. and he got caught by MMDA aid. ;D
So he reasoned out, it says "CROSS ..." >:(
But the MMDA said, but it should be in the "... PDESTRIAN LANE" ???
But he said "I dont know what is "...PEDESTRIAN LANE"". :P
The MMDA said, "IGNORANCE IS NOT AN EXCUSE WHEN YOU BRAKE THE LAW"
Avphile1 said - the government is misleading by putting that signage. ;D
Obviously, some people, whether learned or not, just refused to read or simply refused to understand what they are reading. And when they are bitten, they blame others for their own incompetence. They are 100% certified came from Adam (blame Eve, blame the snake, not me).
malapit na happy new year - magbago na kamu!
Para di OT, dagdagan ko - Pioneer published their specs, NAD published their specs. How they published their specs is their own choosing, and they should bore their own consequences. The buyers should listen! ;D
Pag walang pambili, magbasa na lang ng specs. (specs pa lang nabasa ko sa Whard diamond 9 ;D)
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Hey, jerix, have a tricky question for you,
which is unlistenable in the typical home listening - is it the 1% THD or the 100W sound? ;D
hint: the listener has normal hearing and is still young - not deaf and old! ;D
;D hehehe, Frankly, i really didnt mind about this THD before-- all i know is that i got a 100 wpc x 6 receiver, and whenever i was asked i always say that its a 100wpc x 6 amp,,, and of course that goes with that good feeling of having an amp with that power, though in reality i never have pumped the amp to its fullest 100 w power because using about 75% of its power with all my 9 big speakers hooked in it is already too loud for my living room. In sum, i would not be in position to talk about any experience being exposed or listening to my Pioneer at a 1% THD level, because that would mean, under the equation - pumping the amp to its maximum of 100wpc.
;D
I do not have golden ears ::) but my ears could detect when your house is already infested with "ANAYS" -- ;D
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;D i certainly got your point bro av_phile1 -- It is clear to me that the whole thing is a marketing strategy to attract customers with that "100 wpc" spec, knowing that only few customers usually go further ascertaining the other numerical values of the equipment, such as this THD.
but personally i dont consider it misleading because it represents the whole truth about that 100wpc because truely, when they say 100wpc, they also say that that is equivalent to 1% of THD.
Truely, the first time i heard about this THD measurement from you i was then bothered. This prompted me to open this thread. Our discussion in this thread really have helped me understand this THD issue. So thanks ! ;D
You're welcome. People who know and can read beyond the initial lines on a spec like you or me won't be misled. But these specs certainly leave some suspicion on why the vendor had to make such a patently unaudiophile grade measurement point.
The spec itself is not misleading. Ofcourse the THD level is indicated, that's an FCC requirement. So while they comply with the FCC, you know very well not all consumers can read and interpret specs properly. Even some customers are impressed with those 10,000 watt PMPO thing in many HTIBs, and promptly buy them thinking they have some gear that can blow away a neighbor's 250wpc multichannel amp conservatively rated. It's how those specs can be overlooked by those who may not know any better that I find exploitative on the part of less than candid or over-hyping manufacturers. I know a lot from my office and elswhere who would rush to get a 100wpc or a 10,000 watt HTIB. And those numbers are all that stuck in their heads. Couldn't care less what THDs, or IMs are.
So if I were the manufacturer who knows the buying habbits of my market, knowing that all they want is power and more power, I can exercise some liberties with my measurements to advertise 100w +100w + 100w +100w +100w on all chanels with 1% THD measured at just 1Khz, not even full bandwidth. What do my customers know about such a term anyway. Never mind that such a measurement wasn't even measured with ALL or at least BOTH stereo channels driven. The market doesn't care. Well, I guess the mass market doesn't. But for the few audiophiles in the market, such measurement conditions matter.
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I guess we all know that most amp manufacturers would find ways to impress potential buyers. And publishing specs like 500Watts at 10% THD is one way they could attract potential buyers that are less informed. So, again, I say pioneer hasn't violated any laws, it's just that for some who do understand those specs, nakakadismaya. There's that feeling that this certain brand is attempting to attract me into buying their product using tactics such as this. It's actually IGNORANCE that would get you deceived. Dati, I did not even care to look at THD's and Bandwidths, etc. on amp specs, but now I'm glad, with the help of Sir AV, I do. And now I understand. Point? I would always have more respect for a brand that publishes 100 WpC at 0.06% THD than the one who says 100 WpC at 1% THD. The latter would at least have my respect it if said, 75WpC at 0.06% THD. Again, Sir AV is just sharing some knowledge he firmly believes in, it's up to anybody to accept it or not. At least, with integrity, Sir AV will always have my respect. I see no point in arguing or proving somebody wrong. It's your brain, use it as you please.
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I guess we all know that most amp manufacturers would find ways to impress potential buyers. And publishing specs like 500Watts at 10% THD is one way they could attract potential buyers that are less informed. So, again, I say pioneer hasn't violated any laws, it's just that for some who do understand those specs, nakakadismaya. There's that feeling that this certain brand is attempting to attract me into buying their product using tactics such as this. It's actually IGNORANCE that would get you deceived. Dati, I did not even care to look at THD's and Bandwidths, etc. on amp specs, but now I'm glad, with the help of Sir AV, I do. And now I understand. Point? I would always have more respect for a brand that publishes 100 WpC at 0.06% THD than the one who says 100 WpC at 1% THD. The latter would at least have my respect it if said, 75WpC at 0.06% THD. Again, Sir AV is just sharing some knowledge he firmly believes in, it's up to anybody to accept it or not. At least, with integrity, Sir AV will always have my respect. I see no point in arguing or proving somebody wrong. It's your brain, use it as you please.
At least the maker published it at 100Wpc @ 1% THD rather than lie about it. But you are right, a published 75Wpc @ 0.06%THD would have been more "spec friendly".
Do you guys look at what frequency this THD is measured on? If not, then you should, because harmonic distortions tend to increase as frequency increases and vice-versa.
An amp published at 100Wpc @ 0.06%THD at 1KHz would be closer in terms of distortion artifacts to an amp measured at 100Wpc @1%THD @ 10KHz. But, most of you already know this right? Anyway, just a thought. ;)
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I guess we all know that most amp manufacturers would find ways to impress potential buyers. And publishing specs like 500Watts at 10% THD is one way they could attract potential buyers that are less informed. So, again, I say pioneer hasn't violated any laws...
And I think Pioneer, just like the NAD, HK etc etc is not using misleading figure of THD to attract buyers.
Also, in the contrary, like also NAD, HK, etc etc, they would always find ways to attract buyers but not by misleading figures - probably by stating vanilla features, low THD as well, or high power, or toroid. ;D
So enough accusing Pioneer of misleading the public about their amp rating! :P
...it's just that for some who do understand those specs, nakakadismaya. There's that feeling that this certain brand is attempting to attract me into buying their product using tactics such as this. It's actually IGNORANCE that would get you deceived. Dati, I did not even care to look at THD's and Bandwidths, etc. on amp specs, but now I'm glad, with the help of Sir AV, I do. And now I understand. Point?
I emphatize with you bro. ganyan din ako noong hindi pa ako marunong sa audio pero nakakaintindi ng specs. I just look at the specs, especially sa power at THD, at madidismaya na ako pag hindi yung number na gusto ko. >:(
Pero now that I know and learned what listening really means and how one should listen means, and not only understand their specs, but understand what those specs are for, and understand how to interpret those specs, hindi ako naba-bother anymore. ;D . Get those cable and connect this amp to that speaker and start evaluating the buying decisions! Never on paper alone anymore! ;D
I would always have more respect for a brand that publishes 100 WpC at 0.06% THD than the one who says 100 WpC at 1% THD. The latter would at least have my respect it if said, 75WpC at 0.06% THD.
Owning both type of amplifier profile, I do not see any correlation between respect and THD. Somehow in my experience, the statement above will have all those experienced audiophiles raise their eyebrows. pakibaba nga ang kilay ko :-\ !
Again, Sir AV is just sharing some knowledge he firmly believes in, it's up to anybody to accept it or not. At least, with integrity, Sir AV will always have my respect. I see no point in arguing or proving somebody wrong. It's your brain, use it as you please.
Let me guess - you're from the OLD school, aren't you! ;D
Welcome to the Internet Age!
I have a question - My yamaha has published rating of [email protected]%THD, and 105W@10%THD. How much respect does my yamaha then get?
Peace on earth, goodwill to men!
P.S. Specs ng yamaha ko kino-quote mo ano? ;D
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Bro jo,
I usually consider the rating at full bandwidth (20 Hz-20,000 Hz). Thanks.
Bro aHobbit,
Hey, I also like pioneer, I just think knowledge is a good weapon to have. But that's just me. I also don't think there's any correlation between respect and THD, if you read my post carefully, it's the respect for manufacturers and how they rate their products. Pasensya na po if our brains don't exist on the level yours does. Maybe we choose to stay this way.
P.S. the ratings I quoted are hypothetical.
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I bought a kenwood DV9 mini compo 3 yrs ago - rated 80W@10%THD. Then bought wharf 8.3 and RX-V630 [email protected]%THD.
Since I have more respect with Yamaha (W and THD), i kicked my kenwood - ALIS DYAN - and hooked my 8.3 to yamaha - WOW :o.
Then I connect 8.3 to DV9 a month later after sawa na ako 630. I KICKED it again - langya, bakit mas maganda ka tumunog kay 8.3. ???
Di ko ma-kick 630, mahal eh! ;D
Pioneer is just 1%THD (para di OT ;D).
Hi arthurallanj. just enjoying the thread. have fun!
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Bro jo,
I usually consider the rating at full bandwidth (20 Hz-20,000 Hz). Thanks.
Bro aHobbit,
Hey, I also like pioneer, I just think knowledge is a good weapon to have. But that's just me. I also don't think there's any correlation between respect and THD, if you read my post carefully, it's the respect for manufacturers and how they rate their products. Pasensya na po if our brains don't exist on the level yours does. Maybe we choose to stay this way.
P.S. the ratings I quoted are hypothetical.
Sir,
Maybe I'm wrong but I still haven't seen any manufacturer use white/pink noise as input signal injection when measuring THD. The only "real" way for them to measure a certain THD level at a full frequency spectrum (bandwidth) is to use a signal injector that contains the full freq. spectrum hence a white/pink noise must be used. But most of these measurements use an AF signal injector that has a variable frequency sweep, hence only one freq is selected at a time.
I don't mean any disrespect with you bro but for your post to be true (the one where you look for the %THD at full bandwidth), then the amp your looking for must publish either one of the following:
1. An amp with a fixed %THD from 20Hz-20Khz
2. An amp with %THD values taken at different frequencies.
Again, I don't mean any disrespect, just clarifying things. :) Have fun bro! ;)
Sincerely,
JojoD
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In all humility, thank you, Sir aHobbit. ;D
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Sir,
Maybe I'm wrong but I still haven't seen any manufacturer use white/pink noise as input signal injection when measuring THD. The only "real" way for them to measure a certain THD level at a full frequency spectrum (bandwidth) is to use a signal injector that contains the full freq. spectrum hence a white/pink noise must be used. But most of these measurements use an AF signal injector that has a variable frequency sweep, hence only one freq is selected at a time.
I don't mean any disrespect with you bro but for your post to be true (the one where you look for the %THD at full bandwidth), then the amp your looking for must publish either one of the following:
1. An amp with a fixed %THD from 20Hz-20Khz
2. An amp with %THD values taken at different frequencies.
Again, I don't mean any disrespect, just clarifying things. :) Have fun bro! ;)
Sincerely,
JojoD
So what does the following THD spec often found in many reputable amps mean:
100watts continuous RMS into 8 Ohms, 20Hz to 20Khz, < 0.06% THD, all channels driven.
Is that THD valid for the quoted bandwidth?
THD/IM: less than 0.05% at rated output into 8 ohms
What do you think is the frequency at which this rated output THD was measured?
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I guess we all know that most amp manufacturers would find ways to impress potential buyers. And publishing specs like 500Watts at 10% THD is one way they could attract potential buyers that are less informed. So, again, I say pioneer hasn't violated any laws, it's just that for some who do understand those specs, nakakadismaya. There's that feeling that this certain brand is attempting to attract me into buying their product using tactics such as this. It's actually IGNORANCE that would get you deceived. Dati, I did not even care to look at THD's and Bandwidths, etc. on amp specs, but now I'm glad, with the help of Sir AV, I do. And now I understand. Point? I would always have more respect for a brand that publishes 100 WpC at 0.06% THD than the one who says 100 WpC at 1% THD. The latter would at least have my respect it if said, 75WpC at 0.06% THD. Again, Sir AV is just sharing some knowledge he firmly believes in, it's up to anybody to accept it or not. At least, with integrity, Sir AV will always have my respect. I see no point in arguing or proving somebody wrong. It's your brain, use it as you please.
Thanks Arthurallanj. Glad to know someone's learning from what little I can share. You're right, members here like you are intelligent enough and free to discern and accept or reject what they themselves think are right for them. You only need to present your arguments well and dispassionately.
And with regards brands that overhype they products, like I said, they are shooting themselves in the foot. They probably can get away with it, but they leave a bad taste in the mouth for those who know. It's really a testament to commercialism that some famous brands already known for excellent makes would like to create the wrong impressions in order to get market leadership or dominance. It's really up to the consumer to educate himself for a more informed decision in his purchases. But I think that's really the name of the game in cutthroat mass commercialism.
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So what does the following THD spec often found in many reputable amps mean:
100watts continuous RMS into 8 Ohms, 20Hz to 20Khz, < 0.06% THD, all channels driven.
Is that THD valid for the quoted bandwidth?
THD/IM: less than 0.05% at rated output into 8 ohms
What do you think is the frequency at which this rated output THD was measured?
Sorry av_phile1, but I think you already know the answer to your question or your just trying to prove me wrong.
I think you have actually tested a "real" amp and measured it's THD in real time right? And you wouldn't just rely on the factors printed at the back of the amp or the user's manual right?
Aside from the commercial amps that I have bought in my lifetime, I build some of my amps myself, and tested them myself too. In the case of my diy amps, I have to use quantitative analysis just to justify that the distortion factors are humanly acceptable and correlates with the calculated distortion factors.
I am just trying to help others by information, and I have no reason to prove myself to anyone. I believe in science, and it's language is math, I only use the paper to write the math and nothing more. I don't want to be the source of wrong information for that matter so I hereby rest my case.
Enjoy the music Gentlemen.
Jojo Dijamco
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It's really up to the consumer to educate himself for a more informed decision in his purchases. But I think that's really the name of the game in cutthroat mass commercialism.
Right on, avphile1! Would say "properly" educate himself. When we talk about sound or music, it's not the eyes that should be the final arbiter, it should be your hearing senses!
Jojo is correct. Your information, that Pioneer is misleading the public, has no factual basis but your opinion.
When you say an amp measured in full audio spectrum and came out 100W at .06THD does not tell that the amp will perform good. The tale of the myriads of amps specs like frequency deviation in the audio range like 0,-3dB or the likes tells a lot of other story on the performance. And what you are telling these newbies, if they have to absorb what are all these specs at the back of manual, will just amount to nothing if they are really non-technical people. Even if they learned all of these technical jargon, will not guarantee them that they will end up with a gear that they really like (performance wise).
Some people have enjoyed the benefit of surplus amps not because they know the specs but because they audiioned them. The true audiophile does not really rely on paper specs - they listen.
You yourself tell them they misled people in their specs - and all consumer published their specs - and how do you know the rest of those adored product of yours did not misled the people? ??? You just look at them how they were built :o , they were expensive :-[ , you just listen to it based on your idea of sound ::) , based on the tell tales of others who have their own idea of sound as well :P - but no way you measured it! :P and you want these newbies depend on that paper.
Listen to it so you will not get caught in the many tricks of commercialism! ;D
And all commercial amps, expensive or not, popular or not, will try to hype or overhype. All of them aspire to be the number1. ;D
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Sorry av_phile1, but I think you already know the answer to your question or your just trying to prove me wrong.
I think you have actually tested a "real" amp and measured it's THD in real time right? And you wouldn't just rely on the factors printed at the back of the amp or the user's manual right?
Aside from the commercial amps that I have bought in my lifetime, I build some of my amps myself, and tested them myself too. In the case of my diy amps, I have to use quantitative analysis just to justify that the distortion factors are humanly acceptable and correlates with the calculated distortion factors.
I am just trying to help others by information, and I have no reason to prove myself to anyone. I believe in science, and it's language is math, I only use the paper to write the math and nothing more. I don't want to be the source of wrong information for that matter so I hereby rest my case.
Enjoy the music Gentlemen.
Jojo Dijamco
I have my suspicions, that's why I'm asking. Defering to someone with fresher and more recent experience than I have. So I can get a confirmation on an aspect raised by what you said.
It has been a long while since I've engaged in DIY over those Taiwan based amp kits to remember the actual lab measurements that went with them. If I recall right. they were exhaustive, detailing the THDs at various frequency points within the audible spectra, just not so sure if they are 1 octave apart or something else. They tabulate the RMS voltages at those frequency points and another at different speaker loads. They even have IM graphs and frequency response graphs to illustrate the peaks and valleys and the db variations at at least 3 power levels. As well as the noise spectra. You can really visually confirm if the amp is flat or not. From these specs, you can almost corelate data with what you hear.
Hence, I am under the impression that those specs you nomally find in user manuals are watered-down SUMMARIES culled from such extensive lab tests or from the technical design specifications. They are technically incomplete. And therefore, may have little or no correlation with what you hear. But their form, substance and language have been the de facto minimum literature conforming to FCC or whatever measurement standard the vendors prefer that should accompany any sound amplification device.
So, if a summarized spec says 0.06% THD, 20Hz to 20khz, I would assume that that is a nominal value that the consumer can reasonably expect at ALL the frequencies in that bandwidth. Right?
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So, if a summarized spec says 0.06% THD, 20Hz to 20khz, I would assume that that is a nominal value that the consumer can reasonably expect at ALL the frequencies in that bandwidth. Right?
My thoughts only:
1. If the manufacturer is telling the truth then my answer is yes.
2. If it has been measured by an independent entity/lab then again yes.
But then again, it can be an average THD measurement which is again, misleading. You yourself experienced measuring THD in you dir days, you may have noticed that THD increases as freq increases, so a THD measurement must be accompanied by a freq where it was taken.
An average THD on a bandwidth of 20Hz-20KHz can be very irritating for people who understand how this are measured, right? It can be 0.001% at 100Hz and 0.1% at 20Khz, when we average these numbers we get a smaller THD at higher frequencies but yes, it is a reading from 100Hz-20Khz then.
You see, this things cannot be summarized in a couple of paragraphs, we haven't even touched the other parameters of amplifiers that greatly affects THD, IMD, S/N ratio, etc.
Cheers!
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I could be wrong, but my understanding about THD is that they are a mathematical summation of all the unwanted harmonics generated where there shouldn't be as per the source material. Hence, lower frequencies tend to produce more audible high order harmonics than at higher frequencies.
Those THD specs rated over a bandwidth may be incomplete, but if you notice in many reputable amps and receivers like NAD, HK and Musical Fidelity, the THD figures given are the highest over the 20khz bandwidth, like <0.06% THD. There's a ("<" )less than sign before it, meaning the number given is the highest over that range at the RMS point where the measurement is taken. Others use the 1kz point which have more audible harmonic multiples than at 10khz.
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Your understanding of commercial amps specs is correct, but not with the understanding of THD.
THD tends to increase with frequency, meaning as the frequency increases, the THD also increases.
Now please sir, let's not include order of harmonic distortions in these thread because it would include tube amps as well as solid state amps when order of distortion is studied.
I don't want to sound techie or be called a techno freak by our friends here but it may seem that some of them cannot already follow what we are talking about let alone discuss order of harmonic distortions that would include an amps damping factor, linearity, slew rate, noise floor, s/n ratio, IM, and other unheard terminologies that would only be for the benifit of the two of us. ;D
Regards,
JojoD
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I don't want to sound techie or be called a techno freak by our friends here but it may seem that some of them cannot already follow what we are talking about let alone discuss order of harmonic distortions that would include an amps damping factor, linearity, slew rate, noise floor, s/n ratio, IM, and other unheard terminologies that would only be for the benifit of the two of us. ;D
Regards,
JojoD
bros, your discussion can help us somehow-- just allow us to ask questions from time to time -- ;D cheers!
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bros, your discussion can help us somehow-- just allow us to ask questions from time to time -- ;D cheers!
huhulaan ko ending ng discussion ni avphile1 at JojoD ::)
We will all learn the specs of amps and determine in what way it affects the amp performance. 8)
Then when we buy amp, we will just listen with our ears, because our heads will be so dizzy already with those techie things ;D
Merry Christmas!
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ahobbit... nahihilo na nga ako kababasa eh...hehehehe ;D ;D
:D
makapakinig na lang muna nang musik....
;) ;)
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Ever heard of the expression "growing pains"? That's because growth is painful... He he he Peace! mga bro.
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huhulaan ko ending ng discussion ni avphile1 at JojoD ::)
We will all learn the specs of amps and determine in what way it affects the amp performance. 8)
Then when we buy amp, we will just listen with our ears, because our heads will be so dizzy already with those techie things ;D
Merry Christmas!
Geez, I just hope that we learn new things in this thread! It is my intention to inform as accurately (not just in paper) and as down to earth as possible so everyone can benefit.
You are quite right, when I buy an amp, I listen first before I read the manual. ;D
Merry Christmas to all!
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Do you guys look at what frequency this THD is measured on? If not, then you should, because harmonic distortions tend to increase as frequency increases and vice-versa.
Just want to supply what is being asked here. For this particular pioneer receiver, the manual indicates these values:--- ;)
Continuous Power Output (stereo mode)
frnt ------- 100w + 100w (DIN 1 khz. THD 1%. 8Ohms)
Continuous Power Output (surround Mode)
frnt ------- 100w/ch (1khz, THD 1% 8ohms)
cntr ------- 100w/ch (1khz, THD 1% 8ohms)
srrnd------ 100w/ch (1khz, THD 1% 8ohms)
srrnd bk-- 100w/ch (1khz, THD 1% 8ohms)
Maximum Power(1khz, 10% RMS, per channel driven)
------------------------------------ 120w x 5
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See? The measurements were taken at 1KHz which means that a sine wave signal injector set at 1000 cycles (Hz) was used as input signal. Now if the injectors center frequency would be sweeped higher then those THDs will surely be higher for that particular power and vice-versa.
Although some manufacturers give a spec with a "20Hz-20Khz" range, Pioneer's specs would have been lower if they used this technique (20HZ-20KHz) because it averages the THD levels over the whole frequency spectrum.
Cheers!
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See? The measurements were taken at 1KHz which means that a sine wave signal injector set at 1000 cycles (Hz) was used as input signal. Now if the injectors center frequency would be sweeped higher then those THDs will surely be higher for that particular power and vice-versa.
Although some manufacturers give a spec with a "20Hz-20Khz" range, Pioneer's specs would have been lower if they used this technique (20HZ-20KHz) because it averages the THD levels over the whole frequency spectrum.
Cheers!
mastah jojo --- does it mean that under the 1khz measurement or condition all the other brands like the NAD, MF the onkyos, etc. may possibly register the same result to that of the pioneer's 1% THD?-- ::) thnks !
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Jerix,
This is my opinion only but I think others will agree with this:
With all test parameters being equal, i mean really equal (same test freq, load, etc.), your mentioned branded amps would definitely show lower THD at lower frequencies and higher THD at higher frequencies.
So what the heck does this mean to a person not interested in techno blah3?
This means that it is not FAIR to compare a Pioneer amp with a THD measured at 1KHz to an amp who's THD merasurements are an average of the audio frequency spectrum (20Hz-20KHz).
This also means that if only the guys at Pioneer used the averaging technique in measuring their amps THD specs then they wouldn't be arriving at a 1% value.
If they just did that then none of these arguments will ever have been brought up. ;D
But HONESTY on their part is what makes a difference doesnt it? Even if makes rise to questions such as the title of this thread.
Cheers!
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See? The measurements were taken at 1KHz which means that a sine wave signal injector set at 1000 cycles (Hz) was used as input signal. Now if the injectors center frequency would be sweeped higher then those THDs will surely be higher for that particular power and vice-versa.
Although some manufacturers give a spec with a "20Hz-20Khz" range, Pioneer's specs would have been lower if they used this technique (20HZ-20KHz) because it averages the THD levels over the whole frequency spectrum.
Cheers!
I am a bit confused with what you said. You said the higher the frequencies injected, the higher the THDs. So if they had used various injected frequencies across the entire spectrum, how sure are you that they'd get lower THD when averaged as opposed to getting it only at one frequency. You have only 980 frequency points below 1khz with lower THDs, and around 19,000 frequency points above 1khz with higher THDs. Now if they use 1 octave intervals after 20hz, maybe, since there's one more octave below 1khz than above. Even then, taht depends on how much greater the THDs above 1khz are compared to how much lower the THD's are below 1khz.
But that may be beside the point. THD is not averaged. See those amps with the "<" sign before the THD figure, the THD over the entire 20khz bandwidth is not an average figure, but the HIGHEST obtained. That's why they specify "<0.06%, 20hz - 20Khz, so you don't expect the THD to be any higher at that power level at any point across the audible spectrum.
But, here I go again, if you want to hype your specs, you can always average it. In the case of those specs given by jerrix, the THD is measured ONLY at the 1Khz point. Not averaged. It can be MORE at higher frequencies. Hence, while other conservatively rated euipment will tell you not to expect any higher THD reading on their specs, the pioneer specs opens up the possiblity you can get higher THDs above 1k.
And not only is the 1 khz point a measurement condition that can yield a higher power rating vis-a-vis a full 20hz-20khz measurement condition, but the fact that the measurement is done with only two channesl driven (steeo mode. I assume both channels driven) is already a right step in the overhyping direction for a multichannel receiver. Compare that to the specs of a conservatively rated ROTEL RSX1067:
100 watts/ch (20-20k Hz, <0.05% THD, 8 ohms)
(Seven Channel Driven)
(taken from the rotel site)
The measurement is made across the entire BANDWIDTH with ALL channels driven. And the THD you should expect across that bandwith is less that 0.05%. Not more, but less. Not averaged.
I have other caveat against power measurements done at 1khz instead of full bandwidth or with only one or two channels driven in a multichannel receiver. But that's already out of topic.
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Jerix,
This means that it is not FAIR to compare a Pioneer amp with a THD measured at 1KHz to an amp who's THD merasurements are an average of the audio frequency spectrum (20Hz-20KHz).
Bingo. IT IS UNFAIR. But the unfairness is made at the expense of the consumer who may think he is comparing apples to apples - a 100wpc Pioneer versus a 100wpc NAD. And it is equality unfair to the brand as well, as their slant towards power rating, at the expense of the other feartures in order to bring out the MOST numbers in the power game, is shooting themselves at the foot.
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Your understanding of commercial amps specs is correct, but not with the understanding of THD.
THD tends to increase with frequency, meaning as the frequency increases, the THD also increases.
Well, I could be wrong about THD's not increasing with frequency. They probably do. I'd leave it at that.
But I will stand pat on my understanding of THD as the summation of all unwanted harmonics generated by a fundamental frequency that is a byproduct of any electronic amplification device, whether tubes or SS. THD is TOTAL Harmonic Distortion. If TOTAL doesn't mean summation, what is.
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I am a bit confused with what you said. You said the higher the frequencies injected, the higher the THDs. So if they had used various injected frequencies across the entire spectrum, how sure are you that they'd get lower THD when averaged as opposed to getting it only at one frequency. You have only 980 frequency points below 1khz with lower THDs, and around 19,000 frequency points above 1khz with higher THDs. Now if they use 1 octave intervals after 20hz, maybe, since there's one more octave below 1khz than above. Even then, taht depends on how much greater the THDs above 1khz are compared to how much lower the THD's are below 1khz.
But that may be beside the point. THD is not averaged. See those amps with the "<" sign before the THD figure, the THD over the entire 20khz bandwidth is not an average figure, but the HIGHEST obtained. That's why they specify "<0.06%, 20hz - 20Khz, so you don't expect the THD to be any higher at that power level at any point across the audible spectrum.
But, here I go again, if you want to hype your specs, you can always average it. In the case of those specs given by jerrix, the THD is measured ONLY at the 1Khz point. Not averaged. It can be MORE at higher frequencies. Hence, while other conservatively rated euipment will tell you not to expect any higher THD reading on their specs, the pioneer specs opens up the possiblity you can get higher THDs above 1k.
And not only is the 1 khz point a measurement condition that can yield a higher power rating vis-a-vis a full 20hz-20khz measurement condition, but the fact that the measurement is done with only two channesl driven (steeo mode. I assume both channels driven) is already a right step in the overhyping direction for a multichannel receiver. Compare that to the specs of a conservatively rated ROTEL RSX1067:
100 watts/ch (20-20k Hz, <0.05% THD, 8 ohms)
(Seven Channel Driven)
(taken from the rotel site)
The measurement is made across the entire BANDWIDTH with ALL channels driven. And the THD you should expect across that bandwith is less that 0.05%. Not more, but less. Not averaged.
I have other caveat against power measurements done at 1khz instead of full bandwidth or with only one or two channels driven in a multichannel receiver. But that's already out of topic.
I was surprised it took you so long to post your comments. ;)
"I am a bit confused with what you said. You said the higher the frequencies injected, the higher the THDs. So if they had used various injected frequencies across the entire spectrum, how sure are you that they'd get lower THD when averaged as opposed to getting it only at one frequency. You have only 980 frequency points below 1khz with lower THDs, and around 19,000 frequency points above 1khz with higher THDs. Now if they use 1 octave intervals after 20hz, maybe, since there's one more octave below 1khz than above. Even then, taht depends on how much greater the THDs above 1khz are compared to how much lower the THD's are below 1khz."
You don't have to believe me nor anyone else in this forum. How sure am I? I'm very sure.
"The measurement is made across the entire BANDWIDTH with ALL channels driven. And the THD you should expect across that bandwith is less that 0.05%. Not more, but less. Not averaged. "
So does this mean this is the highest %THD? If it is, then that amp is a very good amp indeed. If the tests were done by an independent institution and not by the manufacturer then by all means I'll believe it.
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Well, I could be wrong about THD's not increasing with frequency. They probably do. I'd leave it at that.
But I will stand pat on my understanding of THD as the summation of all unwanted harmonics generated by a fundamental frequency that is a byproduct of any electronic amplification device, whether tubes or SS. THD is TOTAL Harmonic Distortion. If TOTAL doesn't mean summation, what is.
"Well, I could be wrong about THD's not increasing with frequency. They probably do. I'd leave it at that."
Nice way of putting it, but for me, I don't leave it at that as you do, I'd rather accept it for it is what it is.
"But I will stand pat on my understanding of THD as the summation of all unwanted harmonics generated by a fundamental frequency that is a byproduct of any electronic amplification device, whether tubes or SS. THD is TOTAL Harmonic Distortion. If TOTAL doesn't mean summation, what is. "
THD is a summation, a total of the different orders of harmonic distortions, be it odd or even harmonics. Oh yes, you are right, just don't include crossover distortion and inter-modulation distortion in your summation.
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THD is a summation, a total of the different orders of harmonic distortions, be it odd or even harmonics. Oh yes, you are right, just don't include crossover distortion and inter-modulation distortion in your summation.
Ofcourse, they're an entirely different set. Though IM results from the intermodulation among harmonics that is distortion as well.
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Ofcourse, they're an entirely different set. Though IM results from the intermodulation among harmonics that is distortion as well.
Just clarifying......
IM is not a result of inter-modulating harmonics, but yes it is also distortion.
INTER-MODULATION (or sometimes TIM for transient intermodulation distortion) occurs when an input signal overloads the input stage of an amplifier, causing it to either cut off or to become nonlinear for an instant before the feedback signal arrives (feedback correction). If the input stage cuts off, the amplifier output slews and the amplifier produces hard IM distortion. If the input stage becomes nonlinear but does not cut off, the amplifier is said to exhibit soft IM distortion.
THD is the sum of odd & even harmonics yes, but IM is a differrent orange in the world of amps.
Regards,
JojoD
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Just clarifying......
IM is not a result of inter-modulating harmonics, but yes it is also distortion.
INTER-MODULATION (or sometimes TIM for transient intermodulation distortion) occurs when an input signal overloads the input stage of an amplifier, causing it to either cut off or to become nonlinear for an instant before the feedback signal arrives (feedback correction). If the input stage cuts off, the amplifier output slews and the amplifier produces hard IM distortion. If the input stage becomes nonlinear but does not cut off, the amplifier is said to exhibit soft IM distortion.
THD is the sum of odd & even harmonics yes, but IM is a differrent orange in the world of amps.
Regards,
JojoD
Well, I hope you're not confusing the meanings of Transient Intermodulation Distortion and plain Intemodulation Distortion that I was talking about. As far as I can recall, these two are different distortion products but share the same intermodulating action. What I am saying is that IM is the result, more specifically, the sum and difference of various frequencies that arise when unwanted harmonics appear at the point of clipping. Whenever there are at least two frequencies on the same path, they intermodulate with one another to produce new frequencies that were not there at the input stage. And anything added to or subtracted from the original signal is distortion. When unwanted harmonics are generated as the signal is amplified, those added harmonics that you add to get those THDs produce unwanted intermodulation products called IM that can be more objectionable than plain THDs. I think both THD and IM are classifed as harmonic non-linear distortions.
OTH Transient Intermoducation Distortion is classified as time-based and non-harmonic. But just to distinguish with plain or static IM, TIM results from the application of global or local negative feedback designs aimed at reducing THDs but add transient instantaenous dynamic distorton products called TIMs. I have no material quarrel with your definition of TIMs. Those transients do overload the input stage of an amp until the feedback signal arrives. But often phase-shifted or delayed, thus producing new trransient frequencies that intermodulate with each other. That I think is why TIMs are time-based distortion products. Again as the term suggests, there is intermodulation action between frequencies, but among transient signals - the most audibly severe among distortion products.
Now that's what I recall from my early days in the hobby. As usual feel free to correct me. There may be some newer definitions i am not be aware of from new design applications. But that's where you come in. ;D
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'OLALA!!---I now feel that m inside the amp--tryin to figure what is causing what ::)
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Medyo nakakahilo na nga bro jerix ano? But ganyan talaga when you search for knowledge, medyo masakit...... sa ulo. When we strive to grow, pain is always the result. Again, Growing Pains nga, di ba? I'm just an observer here hoping na maambunan naman ako ng katalinuhan ng mga taong ito. Thanks, mga bro.
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So does this mean this is the highest %THD? If it is, then that amp is a very good amp indeed. If the tests were done by an independent institution and not by the manufacturer then by all means I'll believe it.
No it's not. The THD was measured at 1khz. So by your own explanation that there are more THDs in the upper frequencies, an amp that publishes its THD only at 1khz has MORE THDs waiting in the upper regions. Compare such a measurement to the ROTEL that gives the MAX %THD across the entire audible bandwidth. And whether that was measured by an independent lab or the manufacturer doesn't change the fact that it is a published specification made availalbe at the sales floor for consumers.
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I wouldn't be correcting you anymore because knowing is far from understanding. I just hope that your belief or shall I say knowledge of audio power amplifiers is as accurate so that others can benefit from your informative posts.
Have a nice one,
JojoD
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'OLALA!!---I now feel that m inside the amp--tryin to figure what is causing what ::)
Your not even touching the surface.
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I wouldn't be correcting you anymore because knowing is far from understanding. I just hope that your belief or shall I say knowledge of audio power amplifiers is as accurate so that others can benefit from your informative posts.
Have a nice one,
JojoD
Well , my apologies if I gravely misunderstood your post. Pardon me for thinking you were referring to the 1% THD amp. But you are right if you meant the ROTEL amp. It is a lot superior, no doubt as its THD across the entire bandwidth as published IS the highest. But, like I said, do correct me if I am in error. I'd miss your corrections if you abandon that.
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Well my statements of understanding are there for people to scrutinize and weigh for themselves. I really don't have to impose my understanding on them. I don't know about your kind of understanding. I simply try to figure out the logic of your statements using your kind of understanding.
I would leave the scrutiny and weighing of your understandings to others. I'm sure others are more than happy to do that.
My kind of understanding is the understanding that came from research, experiments and actual applications. I donot copy and paste my understanding if that's what you mean.
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Well too bad you got my earlier post which I regretted posting and changed accordingly, after re-reading your earlier posts. But, the die is cast. Notwithstanding this, my apologies remain. So are my statements about the topic in this thread.
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Well too bad you got my earlier post which I regretted posting and changed accordingly, after re-reading your earlier posts. But, the die is cast. Notwithstanding this, my apologies remain.
No need for apologies, we all make mistakes. ;)
JojoD
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Medyo nakakahilo na nga bro jerix ano? But ganyan talaga when you search for knowledge, medyo masakit...... sa ulo. When we strive to grow, pain is always the result. Again, Growing Pains nga, di ba? I'm just an observer here hoping na maambunan naman ako ng katalinuhan ng mga taong ito. Thanks, mga bro.
There you are guys!!! ;D
And to think, this is just the tip of the iceberg :P
Care for more???
Those THD measurement these amp manufacturer does are all made using bogus speakers - just load resistors - not real speakers. >:D
And real world speakers don't have fixed impedance! :o Your 6 ohms and 8 ohms etc etc, are again just the average. It has dips and peaks. And amp power and THD also varies (notwithstanding, the frequency as well) as these impedance varies - from frequency to frequency. :-[
ANd here is the bomb! ;D
Your amp reacts on the kind of speaker you are using - those cable / cross-over / driver impedance combination - do wreak havoc on those paper measurement. ;D
Now you learn more - and you learn better. The value of an amp is in listening with it on your speaker setup. The paper specs will not bring you anywhere closer to what you want to happen - high-end sound. ;). But I got one ;D - read my lips !!!
The higher power of hyped amps will not guarantee you good sound. :P Those published hyped low THD will give you indeed good sound ?? IF and ONLY IF you use plain resistor as your speakers !! ;D
Now you know who really shot his foot? 8)
Merry Christmas!
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Absolutely. I do believe that tests are done using resistive loads, unfortunately we live in a real world where speakers are seen by our amps as reactive loads. ;D
That's life I guess, where theory and reality meets. ;)
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Your amp reacts on the kind of speaker you are using - those cable / cross-over / driver impedance combination - do wreak havoc on those paper measurement. ;D
I know that a significant amount of THD causes the phenomenon called "listening fatigue." It seems then that other factors may also bring this listening fatigue-- ::) So among all the factors you know, including this THD, what should be the factor we have to look into foremost and the factor we look into as the least maybe? ;)
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::) ahhh yun pala yung 1% THD of Pioneer Receivers. ;D ;D ;D
Thanks to JojoD818 & av_phile1 and to many contributors to this thread. Dami ko natutunan dito ah. Now I know what to do when i decided to buy new amp. :)
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I know that a significant amount of THD causes the phenomenon called "listening fatigue." It seems then that other factors may also bring this listening fatigue-- ::) So among all the factors you know, including this THD, what should be the factor we have to look into foremost and the factor we look into as the least maybe? ;)
Jerix,
did not get your questions - what should be the factor we have to look into WHAT?
Listening fatigue is caused by a number of factors. too much into bass, or your listening area is not tweaked to avoid frequency bounces, so many drivers making bass frequency, your source or your source materials are not recorded (equalized) accordingly or your speaker is not matched tonally with amp, too high listening level bombarding your ear - I may never end.
Some of these things are not true on other people - as listening is too subjective a discussion - and depends on each likings, exposure in music or sound, type of sound, etc etc.
If you can clarify the above question, I will try to answer you.
If it is about how to buy your gear in a practical way, perhaps we should open a new thread. Buying based on published specs will only entail you to compare their papers on your PC, and voila - you have your decision! :P
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Those paper specs as some twerp call them are precisely what defines the product it describes. Afterall, it is specs that made the product in the first place. They have NOTHING to do with your personal listening preferrences. You can get your kicks listening to an amp rated at 10% THD/IM for all I care. And while it is so much easier to say: do your own listening, the ears are unfortunately the most inaccurate piece of measuring device on earth. No set of ears will yield you the same measure consistently across any condition.
SO those specs provide the basic description of a product that have been arrived at using common measurements conditions made by dispassionate measuring devices to allow consumers to compare on a level playing field which equipment they will audition. Much like doing an elimination process where applicant biodata for employment is concerned. And like biodata, product specs are often hyped to gain market acceptance. Those gears measured to extract the most numbers in power rating are exactly that - overhyped. Period. And like employmnet procedures, your auditioning will yield your own personal assessment of the product in question as a job interview will.
Too bad people in the HR department knows an overhyped biodata when they see one. Same with people in the know in this hobby. So if they discard amp with specs measured under non-audophile grade conditions, then down the wastebasket they go. Not worth wasting their time auditioning.
You can pooh pooh aper specs to kingdom come. But that doesn't change the fact that there are excellent products measured under conservative conditions that are preffered among serious audiophiles. And there are overhyped specs made by overly anxious manufacturers for inadequate products that will never deliver on the promise made eir specs. The choice in entirely yours.
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Absolutely. I do believe that tests are done using resistive loads, unfortunately we live in a real world where speakers are seen by our amps as reactive loads. ;D
That's life I guess, where theory and reality meets. ;)
That's right. Knowing that speakers have varying reactive loads to frequencies ABOVE their minimum resistive value, and that one speaker brand would have different reaction plots from another brand, , a RESISTIVE load is used as the common practice to terminate an amp when measuring in order to obtain a more CONSISTENT data and to preclude uncontrollable variances in their measuring conditions.
And speakers themslves, across any price point, have their own THDs to add and contribute to your ears. Hence, from the standpoint of measuring ONLY amps, reactive speakers would be a poor choice for isolating the performance of an amp. And because speakers do add their own THDs, that makes considering only amps with the least possible distortion products even more compelling.
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Jerix,
did not get your questions - what should be the factor we have to look into WHAT?
Listening fatigue is caused by a number of factors. too much into bass, or your listening area is not tweaked to avoid frequency bounces, so many drivers making bass frequency, your source or your source materials are not recorded (equalized) accordingly or your speaker is not matched tonally with amp, too high listening level bombarding your ear - I may never end.
Some of these things are not true on other people - as listening is too subjective a discussion - and depends on each likings, exposure in music or sound, type of sound, etc etc.
If you can clarify the above question, I will try to answer you.
If it is about how to buy your gear in a practical way, perhaps we should open a new thread. Buying based on published specs will only entail you to compare their papers on your PC, and voila - you have your decision! :P
i mean here bro that since listening fatigue after all, may not only be caused by a high level of THD but other factors like cables, speakers, source materials, and even the way you operate the sound system i supposed, and knowing the nature of THD (at least from what we gather from the discussions here...) now, is it really something that we have to be concerned the most to attain good listening? thnx ;)
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I know that a significant amount of THD causes the phenomenon called "listening fatigue." It seems then that other factors may also bring this listening fatigue-- ::) So among all the factors you know, including this THD, what should be the factor we have to look into foremost and the factor we look into as the least maybe? ;)
THD's in most respectable gears are low enough at their rated power. But according to most experts who can correlate what they hear with what was measured, TIM, as I discussed above, are more objectionable. Often the amp circuit designer has to make a balance. Using excessive negative feedbacks are said to decrease THDs to near unmeasurable levels, but at the expense of increasing other more serious distortion products called TIMs.
This is actually one of the reasons why getting a very powerful amp, usually above 250wpc, with even relatively substantial distortion products in the 0.1% range, are sometimes prefered, budget and main home line permitting, since you would never really reach that level at your comfortable listening levels. So, effectively, you get no TIM and harmonic distortion products. But crossover or switching distortion, a non-harmonic distortion product, is another to consider at low listening levels using high powered amps. Seems you rarely can win in this hobby.
But having said that, there are some exquisite amps with exceptionally low THDs that have almost unmeasureable IMs and TIMs at their rated power as well.
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I would just offer industry solutions to TIM and CD:
TIM: Is caused by overdriving the input stage of an amp causing it to slew and which has high NFB (negative feedback) for lower THD. Solution is to use higher gain/linear devices in the input stage to improve slew rate and of course, donot overdrive the input.
CD: This is simply caused by the switching if the output trasnsistos from the positive cycle to the negative cycle of the signal (it's a sine wave and everyone likes it ;D). A momentary off-period during zero-crossing casuses crossover distortion. This only happens in several classes of amps but never in Class A, and you guessed it right, because there the output is already on but at the expense of efficiency wherein the amp dissipates heat even without an input signal. Solutions for this problem is the amp's idle-current setting. Setting it to a fairly high value should remove crossover distortion problems below listening levels if not completely.
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matindi na usapan dto di ko na maiintindihan?????
mag -gulaman na lang tayo!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Matindi nga ang discussion dito -- ;D many of the terms are highly technical -- but all is worth reading- ;)
But maybe it is best if you start with the first post so you will have a grasp on how the issues and discussions slowly developed-- ;)
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Matindi nga ang discussion dito -- ;D many of the terms are highly technical -- but all is worth reading- ;)
But maybe it is best if you start with the first post so you will have a grasp on how the issues and discussions slowly developed-- ;)
cge, cgurado maganda diskusyon dto ;D
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eto pala yung nabalitaan kong mainit na thread dito ngayon. ganda pala ng talakayan nyo dito.... ngayon ko lang nabasa... sana nakisawsaw din ako!! he he he ::)
wala namang kwenta yang THD... THD na yan bakit nyo pinag-aawayan? ;D ;D
CD Players na lang pag-usapan natin... pare-pareho lang tunog, di ba? :o ;D
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i mean here bro that since listening fatigue after all, may not only be caused by a high level of THD but other factors like cables, speakers, source materials, and even the way you operate the sound system i supposed, and knowing the nature of THD (at least from what we gather from the discussions here...) now, is it really something that we have to be concerned the most to attain good listening? thnx ;)
I don’t belong to the old school. I am familiar with what avphile1 is discussing. I did in the past what avphile is doing presently – to mention all those technos and try to find the best amplifier that my imagination created. I salivated on those - what his term – exquisite? – amps. But not anymore.
See his part of post:
“…This is actually one of the reasons why getting a very powerful amp, usually above 250wpc, with even relatively substantial distortion products in the 0.1% range, are sometimes prefered, budget and main home line permitting, since you would never really reach that level at your comfortable listening levels…”
You will do this if you do not know what you are reading. A power amp rated 250wpc with no headroom will be surpassed by amp rated 150wpc with 3dB headroom – musically and theoretically. And to think that that 250watter will just sound only twice as loud as my 25watter. But theoretical things will just remain in the mind. So I put his summary in this statement – you can not buy amps knowing all those techno things he is trying to teach the newbies/non-techno audiophile in this thread. :P
To answer you Jerix, be reminded of the following basic concepts:
(1) You need 10 times power to double loudness (volume) of a sound. This means if you want to double the loudness you are hearing from your 10watt stereo – you will have to upgrade to 100watt stereo – or perhaps upgrade your speaker with +3dB more sensitivity. See, the 250watter is not even twice as loud as a 30watter or more.
(2) What is your speaker – does it has soft dome / metal dome / or no dome at all – is it boomy / no bass / hard to drive – hi sensitivity.
(3) Are you using expensive speaker cable that are normally high in capacitance – or ordinary audio-grade speaker cable.
(4) Some of my research indicated that amps basically will sound the same because their goal is typically the same – to reproduce the audio frequency as faithfully as possible (theoretically). However, this is contrary to reality (practical terms), thus, some audiophile tended to prefer an amp over the other – thinking that is a better amp. But the real crux of the matter is that amplifiers react to different speakers (plus speaker cable - this being inductive, resistive and capacitive variables). Actual testing reveal real performance.
So in my case, I have an 8.3 at fairly 86dB sensitivity rated at 100W – textile (soft dome). I use ordinary audio-grade cable. Thus at 10Watt level, I have my 8.3 at half level loudness already. Would I want to drive it more than that? Perhaps. I will not attempt to load it close to 100W as it is the rated capacity of the speaker. Typically, a 25-watter up to about 75watts is enough for this type of speaker. How much less will it be if it is a 95-dB speaker that you have.
Also, it is the speaker that should dictate what amp to use, not the other way around. Meaning, choose your speaker first – siyempre yung gusto mo na. And when you bought one, find the amp suitable for your speaker. You have the above that gave you guidelines. This time, the amp.
Check amplifier rating – how many watt at what impedance and at what distortion. If an amplifier has published THD of less than 1% in 25Watt minimum – then this is a candidate for audition (power wise). So take for example my RX-V630 – 75wpc at .06% THD into 8 ohms. So the Pioneer, 100Wpc at 1%THD into 8ohms – what I do here is get the half (so it is 50watt), and this is safe assumption this gear is less than 1%THD in 50W – so is also a candidate. Some gears do publish specs like my Kenwood – 68Wpc at .1% THD (yata) and 80wpc at 10%THD into 6ohms. From this, you may note that the power with less 1%THD is higher than the half power point of 40watt (in fact 68watts). So Pioneer would arrive in about 85wpc with less than 1%THD.
You may have heard some people say when they audition the amp – it is forward, laid back, makalansing, mabass – pero they did not describe the condition of their ears. This is short of saying – you must audition your amp with your speaker – torture test it with varied frequency (using your favorite familiar CD using different tracts and different genre of music that you are listening to) and make sure your ears are wide open to note that what you are hearing is in fact what you wanted to hear in an amp.
The THD thingie should have its consideration at an acceptable typical listening power only – 25w to about 75w. If you develop deafness or angry at your neighbor – go ahead, indulge in 100Watts or more. Of course, 100watts or more has some reason – if your speaker is low sensitivity or hard to drive – but then again, high power may not always be the trick for hard-to-drive speakers – the right choice of an amplifier is, THD will not help you here – and this is gained by experience – not much reading the specs. Nowadays, the hard-to-drive speakers are the one sounding very good – but some have rather low sensitivity. THD does not matter at all if you are already enjoying the sound from the synergy of your system.
Do you believe rockers are serious audiophiles? They are usually the ones demanding for high power! You don’t need distortion issue on their amp IMHO. I think their music is basically it.
I hope this helps you doing amplifier hunting the practical way – theoretical specs reading is also good – at least for my comfort room activity. ;D
My advise – don’t shoot your feet. :o
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eto pala yung nabalitaan kong mainit na thread dito ngayon. ganda pala ng talakayan nyo dito.... ngayon ko lang nabasa... sana nakisawsaw din ako!! he he he ::)
wala namang kwenta yang THD... THD na yan bakit nyo pinag-aawayan? ;D ;D
CD Players na lang pag-usapan natin... pare-pareho lang tunog, di ba? :o ;D
It's really a non-issue with todays gears. Except that a few items in the market would like to advertise and shout 100 watts per channel to attract consumers. When it was measured at an unlistenable 1% THD. Just a question of conservative or over-hyped power rating on specs. The choice in entirely on the consumer.
And don't say pare-pareho lang and mga CD players. While I tend to agree to a certain extent, baka maraming magalit. ;D
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And don't say pare-pareho lang and mga CD players. While I tend to agree to a certain extent, baka maraming magalit. ;D
sir, i'm just echoing a famous quote from one of our more prominent PDVD member here... i myself would like to dispute that, that's why i'm going out of my way just to hear different brands, makes and production models of CDPs. ;D
on the THD topic, (para di tayo OT), i think only NAD and Rotel are truthful when in comes to their THD claims or most of their specs, for that matter.... all the rest... hopia, mani, pop corn at siopao na lang yan.... ;D ;D ;D
gulaman na lang tayo, mas maganda usapan....
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on the THD topic, (para di tayo OT), i think only NAD and Rotel are truthful when in comes to their THD claims or most of their specs, for that matter.... all the rest... hopia, mani, pop corn at siopao na lang yan.... ;D ;D ;D
My thoughts as well. But rather than say truthful, I'd say conservative. By being conservative in their measurement methodology, their claims are more realistic and judiciouly descriptive of the product they sell, without making the consumer expect more than what the product can deliver. Unlike others.
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sir, i'm just echoing a famous quote from one of our more prominent PDVD member here... i myself would like to dispute that, that's why i'm going out of my way just to hear different brands, makes and production models of CDPs. ;D
on the THD topic, (para di tayo OT), i think only NAD and Rotel are truthful when in comes to their THD claims or most of their specs, for that matter.... all the rest... hopia, mani, pop corn at siopao na lang yan.... ;D ;D ;D
gulaman na lang tayo, mas maganda usapan....
I would not even touch who's who in telling truth or lies - they are consumer products under compliance to the product standards law.
anyway, NAD and Rotel could be the exotic food and the rest mani pop corn etc - they could have 0% THD - they may have the best THD in the world. So it is just THD to their load resistors. If they are so good performer in the real world - then perhaps majority of serious audiophiles own and brag about them. Can you usher me in a forum of serious crazy audiophiles that use these brands and say they have high-end sound?
THD=performance is true - at least in theory. Want to enjoy imagined music?
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Can you usher me in a forum of serious crazy audiophiles that use these brands and say they have high-end sound?
THD=performance is true - at least in theory. Want to enjoy imagined music?
"How to Become An Audiophile?" perhaps, this is a better topic for discussion here... you might want to start it coz I don't exactly know what an "audiophile" means and perhaps if you could define it with authority, I might have an idea on where to lead you... ;D
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Except that a few items in the market would like to advertise and shout 100 watts per channel to attract consumers. When it was measured at an unlistenable 1% THD. Just a question of conservative or over-hyped power rating on specs. The choice in entirely on the consumer.
Sorry, you are trying to put an issue over published specs. Actually it all boils down to this:
Anytime you see a power rating that says “x watts @ 1 kHz,” look out. That rating tells you very little about the amp's ability to really deliver the low frequency goods. Yes, these “1 kHz” ratings may be legitimate in that they adhere to the DIN standard popular in Europe, but the fact remains that the DIN (“Deutsche Industrie Normen” or German Industrial Standard) is far less demanding than our FTC-originated spec.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/Files/14022.pdf
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"How to Become An Audiophile?" perhaps, this is a better topic for discussion here... you might want to start it coz I don't exactly know what an "audiophile" means and perhaps if you could define it with authority, I might have an idea on where to lead you... ;D
One must be serious and crazy.... ::)
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"How to Become An Audiophile?" perhaps, this is a better topic for discussion here... you might want to start it coz I don't exactly know what an "audiophile" means and perhaps if you could define it with authority, I might have an idea on where to lead you... ;D
A very civil, if not sarcastic way of putting it. I've not really responded to his posts as I find it too demeaning and a waste of time to even consider. I really don't mind him attacking me at every turn, as if he had the monopoly of what is right in this hobby. Like a mad dog barking at the wrong tree.
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Sorry, you are trying to put an issue over published specs. Actually it all boils down to this:
Anytime you see a power rating that says “x watts @ 1 kHz,” look out. That rating tells you very little about the amp's ability to really deliver the low frequency goods. Yes, these “1 kHz” ratings may be legitimate in that they adhere to the DIN standard popular in Europe, but the fact remains that the DIN (“Deutsche Industrie Normen” or German Industrial Standard) is far less demanding than our FTC-originated spec.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/Files/14022.pdf
The issue is entirely about published specs. I have no quarrel with your observation about those power ratings made at 1Khz. They're another way of extracting power numbers that are higher than would be obtained under conservative conditions, like full bandwidth and all channels driven. Measuring the power at higher THD levels also yield higher power numbers. This crass commercialism do look like just a numbers game. The higher they are, the more unwary customers to capture. But they all fly in the face of judicious rating for a more level-playing field of competing products for the benefit of consumers.
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maybe its just a question of following their country's respective regulations, the requirements for disclosure are different between japan's EIAJ and the US FTC.... japanese manufacturers are only required to disclose max power ratings at 1khz while american manufacturers have to follow more stringent rules?
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Under the more stringent FTC rules, here are some insights on those rules found here:
http://www.soundwise.org/gethelp/specratings.htm
Here are some pertinent insights on those rules. Highlights mine. You can then make your own conclusions from these.
2. Before the start of the output tests, the amplifier, whether it be a part of a receiver, integrated amplifier, or separate power amplifier, must be "pre-conditioned" by SIMULTANEOUS OPERATION of ALL channels at one-third its rated power for an hour, using a 1k Hz sine wave. Only after this pre-conditioning are the ratings made!!
This particular requirement is where the headaches and controversy for the manufacturers came into play!! Critics of this requirement argued that, even under the most demanding conditions, a home music amplifier would not have to produce one-third power for an hour while being driven by an uninterrupted sine wave. Operated in this mode, many otherwise excellant amplifiers overheated and their protective systems automatically shut them off!! When that happened, the amplifier flunked the test cycle, and the manufacturer had to then lower the unit's STATED power rating so that at one-third its rated power, it could survive this portion of the test!!
3. With the "pre-conditioning" out of the way, the manufacturer than began the output rating process for the particular amplifier. This is where the amplifier HAD to produce the stated watts-per-channel rating, with all channels driven, and maintain the power rating throughout the frequency range SPECIFIED by the MANUFACTURER.
The importance of this part of the testing is that amplifiers generally deliver maximum power at a mid frequency, such as 1k Hz, and power falls off drastically toward the extremities of the audio spectrum! Under the FTC rules, amplifiers HAD to be able to deliver the stated power at ALL frequencies within their specified bandwidth, NOT just the mid-frequencies!!
Now, even though the manufacturer gets to state the "specified frequency bandwidth, it is the consumer who benefitted from this because even though one amp may be rated at 50 watts per channel at 40-15k Hz, another ramp rated at only 45 wats per channel, BUT from 20-20k Hz would tell the consumer that "something is up" with the first one's rating, and the second one's rating better covered the audio spectrum with its wider range of frequencies!! This also showed that the manufacturer with the wider frequency response in its ratings was being more conservative in its ratings than the other manufacturer was being. This requirement led the manufacturers to generally adopt the "20-20k Hz" rating in order to "hold their own" in the industry and to delineate the "JUNK FROM THE GOOD STUFF" of that time!!
4. Another requirement was that the ratings had to state the load impedance at which the rating was made...normally either 4, 8, or 16 ohms, since these were the general ohm ratings for loudspeakers...and most manufacturers settled into a standard 8 ohm rating for their testing.
5. The FTC also required that the manufacturers also state the MAXIMUM total harmonic distortion produced by the amplifier from 0.25 watts to its FULL RATED POWER for its SPECIFIED BANDWIDTH. Like power ratings, distortion ratings are likely to be superior if measured at mid-frequencies, and less impressive at the high and low-frequency extremes!! All of the above tests had to be carried out in an environment with a temperature of 77 degrees fahrenheit or higher.
Equipment manufacturers were allowed to provide any additional ratings based on other test methods, provided they were"well-known and generally accepted by the industry." BUT, these other ratings had to be displayed LESS PROMINENTLY than the FTC required ratings, IOW set in a much smaller typeface!
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From the above, the following is clear:
(1) Because not all amps can survive the preconditioning cycle required by FTC, they can elect to use whatever standard that is more lenient like DIN or EIAJ so they can published what they want to publish in their specs the better to attract customers.
(2) Measuring power at 1kz will yield a higher power rating.
(3) The THD rating of a respectable amp IS the MAXIMUM over that entire bandwidth the amp operates on. Not averaged.
(4) Indicating a THD at 1Khz will yield the most attractive THD figure, if not an average figure, for purely marketing purposes. I have always suspected that there are higher THDs at the lower frequency regions as well.
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maybe its just a question of following their country's respective regulations, the requirements for disclosure are different between japan's EIAJ and the US FTC.... japanese manufacturers are only required to disclose max power ratings at 1khz while american manufacturers have to follow more stringent rules?
No question about that. Actually there's another standard many receivers have to comply with. I think this is the Underwriters Lab or U/L that has something to do with safety. If I recall right, that is the reason many receivers are rated at 6 ohms, because the heat dissipated under 4-ohms exceed UL requirements for safe operation. So they had to compromise accordingly or they won't pass UL certification.
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on the THD topic, (para di tayo OT), i think only NAD and Rotel are truthful when in comes to their THD claims or most of their specs, for that matter.... all the rest... hopia, mani, pop corn at siopao na lang yan.... ;D ;D ;D
gulaman na lang tayo, mas maganda usapan....
It would have been move helpful if we wouldn't be mentioning any brands. Our main concern is THD levels and other specs that could affect a person's decision in buying an amp.
On the gulaman note, I agree! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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On a side note.... just knowing these technical stuff doesn't make a person's ability to decide if the amp his eyeing to get is a better amp. AFAIK, I have tried to make things clear and easirer to understand for our fellow members to be aware of what to look for in such products. Knowing these things is just the half of it, the other half is understanding it.
I just hope that all this techno talk is not for nothing. And to see other members learn something very wrong wouldn't help them in any way. Let's try to be accurate and a reliable source of information so that we can shed light to other peoples darkness.
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It would have been move helpful if we wouldn't be mentioning any brands. Our main concern is THD levels and other specs that could affect a person's decision in buying an amp.
On the gulaman note, I agree! ;D ;D ;D ;D
In this highly personal and subjective hobby, it is very difficult to isolate the brand from affecting a person's decision in buying. Disussing THDs and all those techno babbles are purely an academic exercise. At the end of the day, brand names have a large bearing on a person's choice that is based on his VALUE judgement and perception.
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maybe its just a question of following their country's respective regulations, the requirements for disclosure are different between japan's EIAJ and the US FTC.... japanese manufacturers are only required to disclose max power ratings at 1khz while american manufacturers have to follow more stringent rules?
Just to opine further on the point you raised. Manufacturers are free to follow the measurement standards they want to adopt for a particular market. If they want to sell in the US, they have to follow the FTC regulations. If in northern Asia, EIAJ or JETA may be sufficient. In Europe, DIN or EIC. In the Philippines, I don't know what standard is mandated, but by reading most of the specs published out there by famous commercial brands, they seem to have ALL the standards : DIN, FTC, EIC, IHF, JETA(new EIAJ). They have so many different power figures that it can be confusing to the consumer who may have no idea how to interpret those numbers. Often, they, abetted by similarly ignorant salesguys, will just pick out the highest rating. Afterall, that's what the customer wants to hear.
For me the FTC requirement is strict enough to yield conservative power measurements. And that is what is observed by many reputable amplifiers many audiophiles have come to cherish over the years. There is nothing false in the claims of many commercical reeivers as they are valid under varying measurement conditions as may be required by more lenient regulating bodies. But until a more thorough standard is mandated for multi-channel amps, I see nothing wrong advocating for conservatism in rating an amp's performance. It provides a level playing field for consumers to compare judiciously. Brands that don't leave them foisting a promise on the customer that won't be realized. It can be very sad to bring home a receiver touted to give out 100wpc thinking it is more powerful than your previous 50wpc receiver. Only to find out it can't, because your older unit was measured conservatively, but the new one was measured at 1khz.
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In this highly personal and subjective hobby, it is very difficult to isolate the brand from affecting a person's decision in buying. Disussing THDs and all those techno babbles are purely an academic exercise. At the end of the day, brand names have a large bearing on a person's choice that is based on his VALUE judgement and perception.
I thought we are discussing THD in the assumption that brand/make is not important. In the spirit of science and theory that is. Of course the person buying the amp would decide which is which, regardless of what brand people here like.
I would love to agree with you on how difficult it is to isolate the brand from affecting a person's judgement, but such person that would rely on brand names as a factor for value in decision making clearly has not learned anything from this thread.
I know I'm not alone in this idea but for me, I don't care what brand it is, as long as it performs well (on paper and actual tests) and makes beautiful music then it's a good amp.
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the fact remains that Pioneer and many Japanese amp makers can often take the unwary consumers for a ride by publishing trumped up claims that have dubious usefullness in real listening conditions. Ofcourse you rerely listen at those maxed levels. Again, that's beside the point. What if I want to? If they sell a 100wpc receiver, it's is a 100wpc gear. Correct. But at 1%THD. It's an entirely useless specification as you cannot listen to it at that level. So why specify at that level at all? So that it can snare unknowing buyers that what they are getting is a 100wpc receiver? So what's their point advertising a 100wpc gear when it is listenable only up to 90 watts? So they can rightly claim to belong in the league of the 100wpc club?
Compare that to a Rotel or a NAD that claims 100wpc at an audiophile grade 0.03% THD or thereabouts. That same Rotel or NAD, if they followed the 1% THD measurement condition that Pioneer follows, would most likely yield a figure in the 130+Watts area. But they are not hyping their products as a 130wpc reciever or amp. In short, their CONSERVATIVE rating can reasonably satisfy the consumer expectation who may want to listen at 100 watts and not get an ear-fatiguing 1% THD. In short, their published spec is a promise they can deliver satisfactorily.
Their hypes are often a disservice to both the consumer as well as to the brand. That its newer consumer models are power rated at 1% THD seems to be a throwback to the early years of audio.
I find that not only a mere marketing hype that use unrealistic measurement condtions to extract the highest possible power ratings, but an insult to the hi-fidelity achievement of the last 20 years.
And while there is nothing fraudulent about their inflated claims, it makes me wonder whether supporting a manufacturer that makes such hypes routinely is worth my patronage as a consumer.
You have accused Pioneer of:
1. publishing trumped up claims that have dubious usefullness in real listening conditions
2. Pioneer giving the spec of 100 watts at 1%THD is an entirely useless specification
3. Pioneer hypes are often a disservice to both the consumer as well as to the brand.
My take is that Pioneer sell the the same models and Europe and publish the spec to prove that they adhere to the DIN standard.
No trumped up claims, not a a useless specification, not a hype.
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To answer you Jerix, be reminded of the following basic concepts:
(1) You need 10 times power to double loudness (volume) of a sound. This means if you want to double the loudness you are hearing from your 10watt stereo – you will have to upgrade to 100watt stereo – or perhaps upgrade your speaker with +3dB more sensitivity. See, the 250watter is not even twice as loud as a 30watter or more.
(2) What is your speaker – does it has soft dome / metal dome / or no dome at all – is it boomy / no bass / hard to drive – hi sensitivity.
(3) Are you using expensive speaker cable that are normally high in capacitance – or ordinary audio-grade speaker cable.
(4) Some of my research indicated that amps basically will sound the same because their goal is typically the same – to reproduce the audio frequency as faithfully as possible (theoretically). However, this is contrary to reality (practical terms), thus, some audiophile tended to prefer an amp over the other – thinking that is a better amp. But the real crux of the matter is that amplifiers react to different speakers (plus speaker cable - this being inductive, resistive and capacitive variables). Actual testing reveal real performance.
So in my case, I have an 8.3 at fairly 86dB sensitivity rated at 100W – textile (soft dome). I use ordinary audio-grade cable. Thus at 10Watt level, I have my 8.3 at half level loudness already. Would I want to drive it more than that? Perhaps. I will not attempt to load it close to 100W as it is the rated capacity of the speaker. Typically, a 25-watter up to about 75watts is enough for this type of speaker. How much less will it be if it is a 95-dB speaker that you have.
Also, it is the speaker that should dictate what amp to use, not the other way around. Meaning, choose your speaker first – siyempre yung gusto mo na. And when you bought one, find the amp suitable for your speaker. You have the above that gave you guidelines. This time, the amp.
Check amplifier rating – how many watt at what impedance and at what distortion. If an amplifier has published THD of less than 1% in 25Watt minimum – then this is a candidate for audition (power wise). So take for example my RX-V630 – 75wpc at .06% THD into 8 ohms. So the Pioneer, 100Wpc at 1%THD into 8ohms – what I do here is get the half (so it is 50watt), and this is safe assumption this gear is less than 1%THD in 50W – so is also a candidate. Some gears do publish specs like my Kenwood – 68Wpc at .1% THD (yata) and 80wpc at 10%THD into 6ohms. From this, you may note that the power with less 1%THD is higher than the half power point of 40watt (in fact 68watts). So Pioneer would arrive in about 85wpc with less than 1%THD.
You may have heard some people say when they audition the amp – it is forward, laid back, makalansing, mabass – pero they did not describe the condition of their ears. This is short of saying – you must audition your amp with your speaker – torture test it with varied frequency (using your favorite familiar CD using different tracts and different genre of music that you are listening to) and make sure your ears are wide open to note that what you are hearing is in fact what you wanted to hear in an amp.
The THD thingie should have its consideration at an acceptable typical listening power only – 25w to about 75w. If you develop deafness or angry at your neighbor – go ahead, indulge in 100Watts or more. Of course, 100watts or more has some reason – if your speaker is low sensitivity or hard to drive – but then again, high power may not always be the trick for hard-to-drive speakers – the right choice of an amplifier is, THD will not help you here – and this is gained by experience – not much reading the specs. Nowadays, the hard-to-drive speakers are the one sounding very good – but some have rather low sensitivity. THD does not matter at all if you are already enjoying the sound from the synergy of your system.
Do you believe rockers are serious audiophiles? They are usually the ones demanding for high power! You don’t need distortion issue on their amp IMHO. I think their music is basically it.
I hope this helps you doing amplifier hunting the practical way – theoretical specs reading is also good – at least for my comfort room activity. ;D
My advise – don’t shoot your feet. :o
Bro aHobbit thnx for these tips-- ;D But most of the time it boils down to listening preference and satisfaction..at least from what ive gathered here, i should not worry so much now about the THD because as i have said im not actually getting any 1% of that from the way i use my amp.
When i get that amp i considered primarily the 11 big speakers i have in the house i want to use all of them so i scouted for an amp that can more or less drive them all, because that means satisfaction to me. As to speaker cables, i only use the generic 14 gauge size. I borrowed an exotic cable once from a friend but comparing that with my generic cable i cant detect a wide difference in terms of the quality of sound i hear. Maybe its because I dont have an acoustically treated listening room to hear the difference, or the exotic cable is not actually a good match with the pioneer amp, etc.-- ;)
ive asked about the factors that we have to be concerned on but after a while, it seems to me that on my case THD is really the least that i should worry about . ;)
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(4) Indicating a THD at 1Khz will yield the most attractive THD figure, if not an average figure, for purely marketing purposes.
The spec is a standard, it is not for marketing purposes.
If they want to sell in the US, they have to follow the FTC regulations. If in northern Asia, EIAJ or JETA may be sufficient. In Europe, DIN or EIC.
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ive asked about the factors that we have to be concerned on but after a while, it seems to me that on my case THD is really the least that i should worry about . ;)
Correct ka dyan sir, OK na OK iyong Pioneer. The 100 watts at 1%THD simply says that they adhere to the DIN standard popular in Europe.
Do noy pay attention to this.
This crass commercialism do look like just a numbers game. The higher they are, the more unwary customers to capture. But they all fly in the face of judicious rating for a more level-playing field of competing products for the benefit of consumers.
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"How to Become An Audiophile?" perhaps, this is a better topic for discussion here... you might want to start it coz I don't exactly know what an "audiophile" means and perhaps if you could define it with authority, I might have an idea on where to lead you... ;D
Xactly! 8)
Thus this glorified THD thingie by avphile1 to be of audiophile grade will now go to trashcan since your proposed thread should clear up first what he meant of audiophile grade! ;D
Bigla humaba tong thread na to ah! ;D
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One must be serious and crazy.... ::)
;D
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On a side note.... just knowing these technical stuff doesn't make a person's ability to decide if the amp his eyeing to get is a better amp. AFAIK, I have tried to make things clear and easirer to understand for our fellow members to be aware of what to look for in such products. Knowing these things is just the half of it, the other half is understanding it.
I just hope that all this techno talk is not for nothing. And to see other members learn something very wrong wouldn't help them in any way. Let's try to be accurate and a reliable source of information so that we can shed light to other peoples darkness.
I hope many readers of this thread can now have the balance of being objective and subjective - and will now better correlate the specs out in the market against real-world scenario of their total sound system.
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You have accused Pioneer of:
1. publishing trumped up claims that have dubious usefullness in real listening conditions
2. Pioneer giving the spec of 100 watts at 1%THD is an entirely useless specification
3. Pioneer hypes are often a disservice to both the consumer as well as to the brand.
My take is that Pioneer sell the the same models and Europe and publish the spec to prove that they adhere to the DIN standard.
No trumped up claims, not a a useless specification, not a hype.
My point xactly!
avphile1 point is not about the 1%THd of pioneer - and I still see he still did not get his point being raised in the thread - and another one joined the fray - with graver accusation against all the rest of the brands :o. His issue is that Pioneer is not truthful, misinforming, hyping without basis, their products.
Kailangan pa bang imemorize ito?
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Bro aHobbit thnx for these tips-- ;D But most of the time it boils down to listening preference and satisfaction..at least from what ive gathered here, i should not worry so much now about the THD because as i have said im not actually getting any 1% of that from the way i use my amp.
When i get that amp i considered primarily the 11 big speakers i have in the house i want to use all of them so i scouted for an amp that can more or less drive them all, because that means satisfaction to me. As to speaker cables, i only use the generic 14 gauge size. I borrowed an exotic cable once from a friend but comparing that with my generic cable i cant detect a wide difference in terms of the quality of sound i hear. Maybe its because I dont have an acoustically treated listening room to hear the difference, or the exotic cable is not actually a good match with the pioneer amp, etc.-- ;)
ive asked about the factors that we have to be concerned on but after a while, it seems to me that on my case THD is really the least that i should worry about . ;)
My last tip to you Jerix:
Consider the following -
Rotel 100wpc at .06%THD into 8ohms - price 35,000
Yamaha 75wpc at .06 THD into 8ohms - price 20,000
Pioneer 100wpc at 1% THD into 8 ohms - price 17,000
NAD 50wpc at .1%THD into 8 ohms - price 30,000
Different people will look at the above options.
The richie may buy the Rotel or NAD - may dating 8).
The internet reader will buy yamaha kasi always best for HT daw ;).
The others may buy pioneer kasi subok na ng lolo nila and brand :).
Siyempre, 'yung ibang marunong makinig - will audition them all.
what is the difference with the options in terms of power? Lets level Pioneer - at about 85wpc into less than 1%THD - kasi sabi ni avphile1, basta less than 1% - audiophile grade daw - o sya 85wpc si Pioneer.
Final correlation: NAD - 50wpc, Yamaha 75wpc, Pioneer 85wpc, Rotel 100wpc
In numbers (paper specs) Rotel is 2x as much power as NAD. But this does not mean Rotel will make sound twice as much. In real world, the loudness level of Rotel is not really far from NAD - remember, it takes 10x as much power for you to double the loudness of sound. Thus, in buying your next gear, this wattage differences is very miniscule in the real world listening - in fact when I look for a sound system - these amplifier ratings is basically on the same level of power rating. ALso, in this regard, headroom issue is more usable than THD if performance (paperwise) is an issue.
This makes my CR reading a fun, because many buyers bought their gears because it has 10 watts more power, or 30 watts more power blah blah on a given THD.
Paper specs is very important if you know how to correlate/translate them in real world scenario. If not, the same paper specs can mislead you - buying something that is really nothing.
O bati bati na tayo ::).
merry christmas. ;D
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I don't know about you guys, but I think I'm mentally better armed these days when it comes to choosing amps. I may or may not be able to base my decisions on these someday, but at least, I sure know what I got. Yeah, I'm still a Yamaha fan, but these days, I don't really consider the JETA rating on the Manual, I consider the full bandwidth rating. Knowledge is power ika nga ni Ernie Baron. And like power, it's up to you on how you decide to use it. You also decide if you wanna go technical, or if you wanna go occhial. I just don't think there's a need for judgemental remarks. I humbly implore all of you my brothers.
"Everybody has talent, what is rare is the courage to follow it to the dark road where it leads"
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Consider the following -
Rotel 100wpc at .06%THD into 8ohms - price 35,000
Yamaha 75wpc at .06 THD into 8ohms - price 20,000
Pioneer 100wpc at 1% THD into 8 ohms - price 17,000
NAD 50wpc at .1%THD into 8 ohms - price 30,000
FYI. Here's the specs of Pioneer VSX-D509S (Product Year is 2001):
Continous average power output of 100watts* per channel, min., at 8 Ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz with no more than 0.2%** Total Harmonic Distortion (Fronts only).
* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission's Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for Amplifiers.
** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer
AHobbit,
How about the specs of my Pioneer, galing kasing U.S., iba yata ang standard. How would you compare them sa mga nasulat mo sa price na...ahem...less than 12k?
What would be VSX-D811S's rating if you would put its THD at 0.06%. ;D
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What would be VSX-D811S's rating if you would put its THD at 0.06%.
to answer this, i am reposting the pertinent portion of PIONEERS response to my query on the 1%THD of the VSX 811s.
I am afraid that you are greatly mistaken. Pioneer's AV Receivers perform much better than what you mentioned at 1% THD. The 1% THD is the condition for rating power measurement. That specification (100W @ 1% THD) for rated power means that our product can get 100W rated output power at 1% THD distortion condition.
Regarding the distortion (THD) specification for VSX-D811S-S, its THD specification is less than 0.09% at 90W output power, and the actual reading can get around 0.02% at 90W output power. On the whole, in case of product specification, Pioneer receiver can get high specification.
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I hope many readers of this thread can now have the balance of being objective and subjective - and will now better correlate the specs out in the market against real-world scenario of their total sound system.
Now that is exactly what the heck I was trying to do for the past few days in this thread! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Question mga people, Do you base your audio equipment purchases on what is on paper (specs)? Or do you base it on the gear's actual performance(auditioning)? Is this 1% THD thingy audible or not? Is it an advantage or not?
just curious. ::)
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"Everybody has talent, what is rare is the courage to follow it to the dark road where it leads"
It is true what you say, but if the talent (or knowledge in this case) is wrong, then it would lead us nowhere.
As I read this thread from the start, it has been reiterated that nobody is imposing decision on anyone, just giving knowledge and info that is critical in choosing amps. And as it happens, some of the knowledge being shared is inaccurate and false, something I cannot take, and so I joined the discussion. And you know why? Because my knowledge can be wrong and false too, but as my know how on this field is not just based on what amps I own, or have owned, but what I have actually measured and because I also study them.
When I was young (in grade school), I built an amp based on a kit. I learned a lot but I never learned how the amp works, and so I said to myself, I'll never stop studying until I know what makes this things work. What makes it good and waht makes it worse.
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Question mga people, Do you base your audio equipment purchases on what is on paper (specs)? Or do you base it on the gear's actual performance(auditioning)? Is this 1% THD thingy audible or not? Is it an advantage or not?
just curious. ::)
I think some of the people here depend their decision making on amps with the brands. The better the brand the better the amp. Most of the comparisons made were from expensive amps or what most of them consider as hi-end.
As for the 1% audible or not, one has to have a built-in oscilloscope in their ears I guess. ;) ;D
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ano ba yang 1% THD na yan. Matagal ko na gamit pioneer receiver ko okey naman ang sound niya almost 4 years na ito. Mali ba nabili ko unit o me depekto na hindi ko alam?
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sino pa bang memebr dito sa pinoydvd ang hindi nag po-post dito???
Sikat na sikat na Pioneer ah..... partida yan 1% THD pa ha.
cheers to all....
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Question mga people, Do you base your audio equipment purchases on what is on paper (specs)? Or do you base it on the gear's actual performance(auditioning)? Is this 1% THD thingy audible or not? Is it an advantage or not?
just curious. ::)
To be frank, unless you resort to some other means to know, these important details, like this THD level can only be seen on the equipment's manual and most establishment dont usually let you open the plastic sealed manual unless u assure them to buy the product. Sometimes the thing "READ FIRST BEFORE YOU BUY" which concerns knowing all the specs of the product is more often not really close to being real. So most often we just have to rely on the limited info-- something like "120 w RMS x 6," which in the first place is true but actually subject to conditions.
Actual performance of the gear i think is best if you have time to audition. the problem is, only few of us can actually discern the quality of the gear in a very limited time. The likes of Bro Kimpao can discern the goodness of the audio amp in just the first 5 notes of the
music, because i believe he is well-initiated. ;) -- but how many in our population is like him?
Is 1% THD audible? -- to some ears YES ... but that 1 % THD is only true if u pump a 100 power from the amp, at least based on the conditions being discussed here. Most of us, i believe has yet to reach that level of listening - so that the 1% THD is actually a monster only under a certain condition.-- :)
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Question mga people, Do you base your audio equipment purchases on what is on paper (specs)? Or do you base it on the gear's actual performance(auditioning)? Is this 1% THD thingy audible or not? Is it an advantage or not?
just curious. ::)
para sa akin senyor kimpao, it's a little bit of everything: i read the user manual for features and quirks... i read reviews (mostly consumer reviews and a little bit of magazine reviews) to check if anybody has experienced any flaws with it... i look for a picture of the back for connectivity options.... and whenever possible i also check published specs to see if there might be problems using it with my current gear, wouldn't want to be underpowered di ba? or to see >10% distortion figures which are common in PMPO fine-print... or impedance mismatch with my speaker, etc.... etc.... etc.
but..... i can do just as well without reading the specs if the audition was convincing enough.
its just a small part of the process of elimination to narrow down one's choices, which might include:
1) reading reviews
2) reading specs
3) browsing audio forums
4) audition at the store
5) asking friends & gurus
6) usyoso sa listening session
7) or once in a while just plainly buying something on a whim
8) or maybe i just happen to like it
BTW, the brand and looks also have a bearing because down the road we might be looking to upgrade so re-sale value is also important.
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pero senyor akyat (salamat dun sa gulaman last saturday ;D ), is this 1% THD thingy audible? ;D :) :D
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senyor, meron ako nung Sheffield Lab "My Disc" Test CD...... there are a few test tracks that exhibit 1% 3% up to 10% distortion...... for comparison purposes, maybe we should do a listening session to see if it's audible? last time i played it was years ago, at that time i actually have difficulty detecting the difference between the reference track and the 3% distortion, but i think some of you might be able to.
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As for the 1% audible or not, one has to have a built-in oscilloscope in their ears I guess. ;) ;D
this comes from the mind and experience of the guru-- ;D
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ano ba yang 1% THD na yan. Matagal ko na gamit pioneer receiver ko okey naman ang sound niya almost 4 years na ito. Mali ba nabili ko unit o me depekto na hindi ko alam?
Bro, the answer is --- NONE OF THE ABOVE -- ;D Its just that it bares a certain measurement based on a certain formula that is now the main subject of the entire discussion- ;)
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This thread is being HIJACKED!!! :o
Akala ko SURPLUS AMPS - kasama na kasi gulaman sa posts eh. ;D
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Its just that it bares a certain measurement based on a certain formula that is now the main subject of the entire discussion- ;)
My understanding of this thread:
If Pioneer wants to sell an amp/receiver in some parts of Europe, they have to comply to a standard set by DIN. DIN wants Pioneer to adhere to the “x watts @ 1 kHz,” rating.
Pioneer followed DIN, but someone called it "marketing hype".
BTW,
DIN (DEUTCHE INDUSTRIE-NORME): The German industrial standard. In the audio industry governing plugs, sockets and general performance criteria.
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ano ba yang 1% THD na yan. Matagal ko na gamit pioneer receiver ko okey naman ang sound niya almost 4 years na ito. Mali ba nabili ko unit o me depekto na hindi ko alam?
if you have been enjoying your pioneer for almost four years, then i suggest you stop worrying about specs like thd. the important thing is you enjoy your system.
:)
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I agree! ;D
Let's just enjoy the music with our Pioneers >:D
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This thread is being HIJACKED!!! :o
Akala ko SURPLUS AMPS - kasama na kasi gulaman sa posts eh. ;D
di naman sir, sigurado mas masarap kasi pag-usapan ito lalo na pag may gulaman.
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Happy New Year!!!
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unless your speakers are distortion free as well ,1% THD is not really that discernible IMHO
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if you have been enjoying your pioneer for almost four years, then i suggest you stop worrying about specs like thd. the important thing is you enjoy your system.
:)
Ang haba na kasi ng thread na ito kala ko me problem o kaya pangit ang sound ng pioneer reciever ko.
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Happy New Year!!!
Likewise! ;D
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di naman sir, sigurado mas masarap kasi pag-usapan ito lalo na pag may gulaman.
isama mo na yun kitchen shootout ni kuya sa gulaman para mas maintindihan yun THD. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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This thread is being HIJACKED!!! :o
Akala ko SURPLUS AMPS - kasama na kasi gulaman sa posts eh. ;D
hehehe! maganda rin kung me THD paminsan-minsan sa thread na ito kasi it makes the discussion light-- ;D
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It is true what you say, but if the talent (or knowledge in this case) is wrong, then it would lead us nowhere.
Definitely Sir, that's why the road is dark, and that's why you must have the courage, and not be afraid to be wrong, until you find the truth. All I was trying to say was, that is the price of the search for knowledge, pain, headaches... Kasi some of us nagrereklamo na nakakahilo na raw. Sir, I guess we all know that madugo talaga ang search for knowledge, and I respect everybody here that takes everything with a grain of salt. Questioning leads to the truth, di po ba? And we thank you in your attempt to correct anything false or inaccurate. No argument with all of you sir, all of you have knowledge that is beyond my own, and I'm just learning here, just wish we'd be as objective and dispassionate as possible. My respect to you sir.
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Definitely Sir, that's why the road is dark, and that's why you must have the courage, and not be afraid to be wrong, until you find the truth. All I was trying to say was, that is the price of the search for knowledge, pain, headaches... Kasi some of us nagrereklamo na nakakahilo na raw. Sir, I guess we all know that madugo talaga ang search for knowledge, and I respect everybody here that takes everything with a grain of salt. Questioning leads to the truth, di po ba? And we thank you in your attempt to correct anything false or inaccurate. No argument with all of you sir, all of you have knowledge that is beyond my own, and I'm just learning here, just wish we'd be as objective and dispassionate as possible. My respect to you sir.
I understand, and likewise, my respect to you too.
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mukhang nagkakaigihan na kayo ah - o, kiss na! ;D
Parang soap opera! ;D
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guys pinakinggan ko ulit yun Sheffield Lab Test CD, there are 6 tracks featuring varying degrees of distortion over the entire frequency spectrum: 0% .1% .3% 1% 3% and 10%.
there are 6 tracks featuring a sine wave at 1khz, i was able to hear obvious distortion starting at 3%.
there are another 6 tracks featuring a rather complex song with several instruments, i'm not sure if i can hear a difference between zero distortion and 3% distortion, the music was moving too fast, but there seems to be an obvious difference at 10%.
i probably should have listened a little louder to hear the difference, but it was night time already and i didn't want to disturb the neighbors.... so i guess my listening level was "normal" volume around that time.
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avphile1 point is not about the 1%THd of pioneer - and I still see he still did not get his point being raised in the thread - and another one joined the fray - with graver accusation against all the rest of the brands :o. His issue is that Pioneer is not truthful, misinforming, hyping without basis, their products.
Kailangan pa bang imemorize ito?
why do i get a feeling that you don't comprehend what you read??? I said "I think xxx xxx xxx"... so it's not a sweeping statement. You should learn how to respect someone else's opinion here and not impose your little knowledge at will. We can disagree and not become disagreeable at the same time. ::) ;)
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guys pinakinggan ko ulit yun Sheffield Lab Test CD, there are 6 tracks featuring varying degrees of distortion over the entire frequency spectrum: 0% .1% .3% 1% 3% and 10%.
there are 6 tracks featuring a sine wave at 1khz, i was able to hear obvious distortion starting at 3%.
there are another 6 tracks featuring a rather complex song with several instruments, i'm not sure if i can hear a difference between zero distortion and 3% distortion, the music was moving too fast, but there seems to be an obvious difference at 10%.
i probably should have listened a little louder to hear the difference, but it was night time already and i didn't want to disturb the neighbors.... so i guess my listening level was "normal" volume around that time.
under normal listening level, maybe at half of your amps power, less than 3% of THD at 1Khz is not even audible -- so how much more with 1% which can be reached only if u go as high as 100 w of your amps power, which we do not normally do?
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why do i get a feeling that you don't comprehend what you read??? I said "I think xxx xxx xxx"... so it's not a sweeping statement. You should learn how to respect someone else's opinion here and not impose your little knowledge at will. We can disagree and not become disagreeable at the same time. ::) ;)
The topic is already moot and academic. ???
I think I have not been discourteous to anyone - in fact I just use their own words in repost. ;D
I won't dissect anymore the post (like what you did) from which you are posting above, in the hope that I will not also get the feeling that you also did not comprehend my post. ;).
Further, it's my opinion also - and I hate to say it's correct, being my opinion. 8)
SO I think in my opinion I respected your opinion. - for as long as, in my opinion, you also respect my opinion in my post. :)
And in my opinion, any opinions posted by anybody in response to the opinions of somebody should have solicited an opinion that will be beneficial to the topic at hand so that an opinion can become more established and be elevated to just mere opinion but of practical value to the reader ::)
IMHO, I apologize if I have imposed my little knowledge at will to you. ;D Did I??? :o
Peace on earth, goodwill to men! :D
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Bottom line: respect each other's opinion
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sobrang hangin. huh...
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This is probably the most informative and action-packed thread in this forum. ;D ;D ;D
Hugs and Kisses,
JojoD ;)
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yup, technical, informative, humorous, with a little bit of sarcasm...and the saga continues hehehe ;D
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This is probably the most informative and action-packed thread in this forum. ;D ;D ;D
Hugs and Kisses,
JojoD ;)
Mayroon pang mas matindi kaysa sa thread na ito. >:D >:D
Balik na tayo sa Gainclone thread baka bigla dumaan si hurricane Ivan dito at... :-X :-X
Kailangan pa bang i-memorize yan...OT na to no! ;D ;D ;D
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Mayroon pang mas matindi kaysa sa thread na ito. >:D >:D
Balik na tayo sa Gainclone thread baka bigla dumaan si hurricane Ivan dito at... :-X :-X
Kailangan pa bang i-memorize yan...OT na to no! ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
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OT rin...
Eh pano na yung Interconnects and speaker cable threads... ;D
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OT rin...
Eh pano na yung Interconnects and speaker cable threads... ;D
Ahahahaha!!!! Akala ko sir na baun na na yung topic na yun. ;D ;D
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Lets go back to the topic peacefully.
Wag na ninyo ibalik ang Interconnects magulo talaga yon dahil ang kalaban doon multiple identity. Conflicting pa dahil isang tao opposite sides.
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Lets go back to the topic peacefully.
Wag na ninyo ibalik ang Interconnects magulo talaga yon dahil ang kalaban doon multiple identity. Conflicting pa dahil isang tao opposite sides.
Oo nga at kung hindi baka daanan tayo ni hurricane Ivan at tangayin sa kung saan-saang lupalop ng internet at hindi na tayo makabalik sa thread na ito. ;D ;D ;D
Hindi pa rin na-memorize...OT pa rin!!! 8) ;D 8)
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ah...anyone remember the topic regarding vacuum tubes vs. SS? that was another action packed thread ;D
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Ako naman ay share ko lang yun alam ko sa THD. Gusto ko lang maging helpful yun information and syempre hindi misleading. Kaya balik THD na tayong lahat. ;D
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balik THD tayo
master Jo, alin ang mas magandang specs dito:
Pioneer A-405 - 75wpc @ 8 ohms with a rated THD of 0.05% (DIN 1khz)
NAD C352 - 80wpc @ 8 ohms with a rated THD of 0.03% (20Hz-20kHz)
pareho kong naging amp yan bro...
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whew, sarap basahin pala tong thread nato! kaya lang pabalik nga lang ang basa ko hehehehehe :) so can you hear 1% THD? ;D. ngayon ko lang din nalaman yung DIN at marami pang iba 8)
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balik THD tayo
master Jo, alin ang mas magandang specs dito:
Pioneer A-405 - 75wpc @ 8 ohms with a rated THD of 0.05% (DIN 1khz)
NAD C352 - 80wpc @ 8 ohms with a rated THD of 0.03% (20Hz-20kHz)
pareho kong naging amp yan bro...
Am not sure kung paano kinuha yun sa NAD, but if it is the highest level up to 20Khz then it is the better amp since the Pioneer's THD levels should increase when the test frequency increases.
One thing that also affects THD the most when the frequency is taken into factor is the power supply. At low frequencies, THD can also rise if the psu cannot supply the required energy (joules/current), but at high frequencies, THD is more affected by the amps design, transistors gain-bandwidth product especially if transistor input (not opamp-based), and the amount of negative feedback. Remember the 2SC2922/2SA1216 ??? Those power transistors are there not just because of it's power handling capability, but it is there too to handle the drivers and input transistors speed.
Sorry kung mahaba na. ;D
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whew, sarap basahin pala tong thread nato! kaya lang pabalik nga lang ang basa ko hehehehehe :) so can you hear 1% THD? ;D. ngayon ko lang din nalaman yung DIN at marami pang iba 8)
This doesn't answer your question but.......
Not too long ago, I once had an SAE amp with a 1% THD at 280W and 10%THD at 340W both at 8 ohms load. A friend had the chance to listen and while reading the service manual asked me if ever I'm selling that he may be the first one I asked. I said, you want to buy a 1% THD amp? Why?
He aswered: "Bago ko siguro abutin yun 1%THD eh dumudugo na tenga ko!"
So it was mine no more...... ;D
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Not too long ago, I once had an SAE amp with a 1% THD at 280W and 10%THD at 340W both at 8 ohms load. A friend had the chance to listen and while reading the service manual asked me if ever I'm selling that he may be the first one I asked. I said, you want to buy a 1% THD amp? Why?
He aswered: "Bago ko siguro abutin yun 1%THD eh dumudugo na tenga ko!"
This is xactly the case of the 1% THD of Pioneer at 100 watts - ;)
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masters, di po ba magkaiba rin ang 1% THD at 100W continuous sa 1% THD at 100W dynamic? hehehe.... pampagulo lang. ;D
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yup magkaiba yan, same as the rating of 100w continuous and 100w dynamic -- which some pioneer receivers are spec'd
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masters, di po ba magkaiba rin ang 1% THD at 100W continuous sa 1% THD at 100W dynamic? hehehe.... pampagulo lang. ;D
pag magulo dapat may gulaman yan. ;D ;D ;D ;D
panibagong story yan sir. ;)
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additional tanong po .
what is the difference between Pioneer AVR models VSX-55TXi and VSX-AX5i ???
kasi yung 55TXis according to Pioneer's American website has the following specs :
Surround Power 100W x 7 (20HZ-20kHZ @ 8 ohm, 0.09% THD)
Stereo Power 100W x 2 (20HZ-20kHZ @ 6 ohm, 0.09% THD)
while the AX5i according to Pioneer's European website has the following specs :
Power Output VSX-AX5i-S
Stereo (DIN) 100 W + 100 W (8 Ohm, 1% THD, 1 kHz)
Surround Front 100 W + 100 W (8 Ohm, 1% THD, 1kHz)
Surround Centre 100 W (8 Ohm, 1% THD, 1kHz)
Rear (Surround) 100 W + 100 W (8 Ohm, 1% THD, 1kHz)
Surround Back 100 W + 100 W (8 Ohm, 1 % THD, 1kHz)
are the two models one and the same ? nagkaiba lang ang designation because of the different regions thay are being sold to ?
and the spec's are different because of the requirements of the different regions ?
ty
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Para sa mga naguluhan sa pampagulo ni Sir Akyat:
Continuous power means the output power that can be sustained at a certain period without the amp getting burned, Dynamic power is the output power that can be produced at an instant, but not sustained, since this may cause the amp to overheat. So, usually, dynamic power ratings are higher than continuous power ratings.
Si Sir Akyat talaga, lalong pinapasakit ang mga ulo ng mga nahihilo na(isa na ako dun). HEHEHE ;D
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Para sa mga naguluhan sa pampagulo ni Sir Akyat:
Continuous power means the output power that can be sustained at a certain period without the amp getting burned, Dynamic power is the output power that can be produced at an instant, but not sustained, since this may cause the amp to overheat. So, usually, dynamic power ratings are higher than continuous power ratings.
dynamic power or dynamic headroom or headroom is basically the same item. Arthurallanj defined it already. All reputable amps have rms rating (based on recognized standard). Some amps indicate the headroom. Some dont. And this specs is somewhat tricky and should be noted by buyers (if they care about the specs).
translate the numbers in the real world listening, say for example the Pioneer with 100wpc.
a 100wpc amp with no headroom (0dB headroom) is the same as saying it has the same 100wpc as dynamic power
a 1dB headroom is the same as saying it has dynamic power of 1.26x100watts=126 watts/ch. this will sound approximately 10% louder as normal 100watt-0dB headroom amplifier >:( This will sound basically as loud as a 125wpc amp with no headroom. ;D
a 2dB headroom is the same as saying it has dynamic power of 1.59x100watts=159 watts/ch. this will sound approximately 20% louder as normal 100watt-0dB headroom amplifier :-\ . This will sound basically as loud as a 160wpc amp with no headroom. ;D
a 3dB headroom is the same as saying it has dynamic power of 2.00x100watts=200 watts/ch. this will sound approximately 30% louder as normal 100watt-0dB headroom amplifier :( . This will sound basically as loud as a 200wpc amp with no headroom. ;D
a 10dB headroom is the same as saying it has dynamic power of 10.00x100watts=2000 watts/ch. this will sound twice (2.000 times) as loud as normal 100watt-0dB headroom amplifier. ??? This will sound basically as loud as a 2000wpc amp with no headroom. ;D
Now you are ready to site one of many possible reasons how come the likes of 50-watt NAD integrated amp can sound like a 100-watt amp. ;)
Again, the above is one of the ways to determine a well-designed amp (objectively). It is entirely a different story to determine a well-sounding amp (subjectively). ;D
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additional tanong po .
what is the difference between Pioneer AVR models VSX-55TXi and VSX-AX5i ???
kasi yung 55TXis according to Pioneer's American website has the following specs :
Surround Power 100W x 7 (20HZ-20kHZ @ 8 ohm, 0.09% THD)
Stereo Power 100W x 2 (20HZ-20kHZ @ 6 ohm, 0.09% THD)
while the AX5i according to Pioneer's European website has the following specs :
Power Output VSX-AX5i-S
Stereo (DIN) 100 W + 100 W (8 Ohm, 1% THD, 1 kHz)
Surround Front 100 W + 100 W (8 Ohm, 1% THD, 1kHz)
Surround Centre 100 W (8 Ohm, 1% THD, 1kHz)
Rear (Surround) 100 W + 100 W (8 Ohm, 1% THD, 1kHz)
Surround Back 100 W + 100 W (8 Ohm, 1 % THD, 1kHz)
are the two models one and the same ? nagkaiba lang ang designation because of the different regions thay are being sold to ?
and the spec's are different because of the requirements of the different regions ?
ty
They are probably the same model, with different model number to diferentiate the region it is being sold to.
I have my doubt if they have different specifications. But I am not saying the published specs are incorrect.
The VSX-TX55i is measured using the US FTC. The AX5i using the DIN method. But the same manufacturer Pioneer declared the specs sheet.
If you go back to the answer of Pioneer to Jerix in the beginning of this thread, you will note the reply of the rep - ... it talks about the condition it complied with. Not that when you measured Pioneer you will get 100W at 1%THD as in the case of Jerix gear. I do not interpret the reply as such.
My interpretation is this: Under the DIN rule, Pioneer is just declaring that Jerix gear is guaranteed to comply up to 100watts per channel under the DIN standard at 1KHz reference. Not that Jerix gear will have 1%THD at 100watts at 1KHz. If you will actually be measuring (as the rep continues), you will be surprise to have less then 0.1% at 100wpc not only at 1KHz.
Thus, (if in case my assumption is correct that the 2 above models are the same), The spec sheet discusses the same thing:
FTC
Under the FTC regulation, the AX5i is guaranteed to have 100watts with xx THD at 20-20k Hz.
DIN
Under the DIN regulation, the AX5i is guranteed to have 100 watts.
I will put it in a different way so it could be understood.
FTC : Will the model be able to have 100watts at 20-20k Hz with 0.09%THD?
Pioneer: YES
DIN : Will the model be able to have 100watts at 1k Hz with 1%THD?
Pioneer: YES
I have appreciated the fact that these manufacturers do have design spec sheet before they make amps. This design sheet is usually the one get published. But material choices in building the actual amps do not really represents the exact values as provided for by the design spec sheet. Thus the design spec sheet usually provides the minimum, whereas the actual amp specs, can have higher rating. Thus, it is normal to see web site like hometheater.com publishing actual measurement made showing higher values than what has been specified by the manufacturer (I am speaking usually based on stereo mode - 2 channels driven).
So let's sum up.
Which one of the above is the actual measurement of the model? ???
neither!!! ;D
It is highly probable that the above model is more than 100watts per channel at 0.09%THD from 10-50k HZ. :). My Yamaha 630 is 75wpc (design spec), but pumps 90wpc (actual spec-stereo).
Tagal naman ng bonus! :D
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The spec is a standard, it is not for marketing purposes.
The spec is not a standard, the specs follow a standard - DIN, JETA, EIA, FTC, ek ek.
Specs can and are used for marketing purposes.
The amplifer section of the 7.2 Onkyo receiver TXSD989, flagship reciever as of 2000-2001 had a rating of 200watts front (L and R). 200watts center, 200watts rear(& and R) and 200watts surround (L and R) as published in their marketing brochures. Apparently DIN rated at 1Khz. I still have a copy of that. WOW, a total of 1400 watts!! Any unknowing customer would be very impressed. But in that same brochure is shown the back of the receiver. A little magnification will reveal the electrical power consumption of only 735watts. ??? Not many customer will bother to look. He'll go home thinking he's got a 200wpc receiver. Where on earth will that receiver ever get the additional 665 watts, plus the heat dissipated.
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To be frank, unless you resort to some other means to know, these important details, like this THD level can only be seen on the equipment's manual and most establishment dont usually let you open the plastic sealed manual unless u assure them to buy the product. Sometimes the thing "READ FIRST BEFORE YOU BUY" which concerns knowing all the specs of the product is more often not really close to being real. So most often we just have to rely on the limited info-- something like "120 w RMS x 6," which in the first place is true but actually subject to conditions.
Actual performance of the gear i think is best if you have time to audition. the problem is, only few of us can actually discern the quality of the gear in a very limited time. The likes of Bro Kimpao can discern the goodness of the audio amp in just the first 5 notes of the
music, because i believe he is well-initiated. ;) -- but how many in our population is like him?
Is 1% THD audible? -- to some ears YES ... but that 1 % THD is only true if u pump a 100 power from the amp, at least based on the conditions being discussed here. Most of us, i believe has yet to reach that level of listening - so that the 1% THD is actually a monster only under a certain condition.-- :)
True. You can never test rated power conditions on the salesfloor. I doubt if salespeople will even allow you to bring their wares to the full volume mark.. Good luck. So that 1% THD is just that - a paper figure. But one that totally renders the unit disadvantaged when compared to another receiver of the same numerically equivalent power rating, but taken at a more audiophile grade THD level.
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whew, sarap basahin pala tong thread nato! kaya lang pabalik nga lang ang basa ko hehehehehe :) so can you hear 1% THD? ;D. ngayon ko lang din nalaman yung DIN at marami pang iba 8)
It is not even possible to discern a 3% THD compared with a 0.5% THD. Like I said in my previous posts, the normal comfortable listening levels of around 80db in a room rarely exceeds 5watts per channel. The issue behind the 1% THD is entirely on the apparent compulsion of manufacturers to extract the highest possible numerical figure for their power rating, so that rather than measure at audiophile grade levels of below 0.1% THD, they measure at 1% or even 10%, the better to get higher figures that will impress unwary customers. Those figures have NOTHING to do with your auditioning or listening enjoyment. The marketing hype behind such measurement practice is so obvious.
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What I think some of us miss here is the fact that since audio/HT listening is a very subjective topic, some groundwork must be layed out. Nobody here questions the fact that in the end, it would still be your preference that would be followed. But because of the fact that not everybody has a trained ear, it would be best that novices like me would be armed with knowledge, so that, at least, I know what I'm getting. A friend could tell me he has a 500w amp, but he doesn't know it has a 10% THD, and I have a 100w amp and if I didn't know about THDs I might think that his amp is more powerful than mine, mine might have lower THDs at the same rating. Before, I used to think that my 430 can really output 100w per channel w/o a hitch, but now that I know of THDs, I base my readings also on those other data. 1%THD is 1% THD no matter what, and that is a fact. Everybody else can argue all day that it may or may not affect their listening. 100w @ 10% THD is not attractive to me these days, not like before that I didn't understand about them. So, again, these are just tools to help anybody decide, if you wanna use it or not, is your decision. Let's not hold others back when they try to share what they know, let us decide if that's important or not.
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If you go back to the answer of Pioneer to Jerix in the beginning of this thread, you will note the reply of the rep - ... it talks about the condition it complied with. Not that when you measured Pioneer you will get 100W at 1%THD as in the case of Jerix gear. I do not interpret the reply as such.
My interpretation is this: Under the DIN rule, Pioneer is just declaring that Jerix gear is guaranteed to comply up to 100watts per channel under the DIN standard at 1KHz reference. Not that Jerix gear will have 1%THD at 100watts at 1KHz. If you will actually be measuring (as the rep continues), you will be surprise to have less then 0.1% at 100wpc not only at 1KHz.
I fully agree with this interpretation.
I just cannot see were the marketing hype is.
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In this hobby anyone is free to make their interpretation, right or wrong. IT is so obvious what the Pioneer rep stated at the start of the article. Read it again. He said the power measurement was done at 1% THD. And it could very well be that the receiver has a 0.09% THD at 90 watts. It is so obvious that the measurement was made in order to get a higher power rating. Why not just advertise at as a 90wpc receiver then? If that's not marketing hype to make the receiver enter the the 100watt club, you have so much to learn about marketing.
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What I think some of us miss here is the fact that since audio/HT listening is a very subjective topic, some groundwork must be layed out. Nobody here questions the fact that in the end, it would still be your preference that would be followed. But because of the fact that not everybody has a trained ear, it would be best that novices like me would be armed with knowledge, so that, at least, I know what I'm getting. A friend could tell me he has a 500w amp, but he doesn't know it has a 10% THD, and I have a 100w amp and if I didn't know about THDs I might think that his amp is more powerful than mine, mine might have lower THDs at the same rating. Before, I used to think that my 430 can really output 100w per channel w/o a hitch, but now that I know of THDs, I base my readings also on those other data. 1%THD is 1% THD no matter what, and that is a fact. Everybody else can argue all day that it may or may not affect their listening. 100w @ 10% THD is not attractive to me these days, not like before that I didn't understand about them. So, again, these are just tools to help anybody decide, if you wanna use it or not, is your decision. Let's not hold others back when they try to share what they know, let us decide if that's important or not.
Glad to know someone has some sense to discern the obvious. Understanding much of the hype that attends most power ratings of mass market gears can aid anyone to EXPECT only what the gear of his choice can deliver. Not more. And all this rationalization that they don't hear this or that THDs, or that they rerely ever reach the 100watt levels, are entirely beside the point. They won't change the fact that the manufacturer of these products over-hype the specs of their gears in order to gain market patronage.
Many unknowing consumers are easily decieved by such over-hyped power ratings like the PMPO in HTIBs. WOW 10,000 PMPO of music!!! ??? They go home fully expecting their new gears to blast the neighbors but only to be disappointed that they can't sound any louder than a decent set-up conservatively rated at even just 120watts per channel. And they will forever wonder why.
Many receivers fall into this same hype. They don't shout PMPO, but their style is just as deceptive. On the surface, they conform to and quote DIN and JETA standards that require only power measurements at 1Khz and some at 4ohm loads. Nothing of the FTC stringent requirements. Someone in another forum rightly opined that nobody listens to 1kz. True, but that is also beside the point. The power numbers derived when measuring at 1khz can be 50% higher as when measured at FULL 20khz bandwidth. Hence, hiding behind such lenient standards, the large power numbers extracted have their marketing hype value to attract unwary customers who for the msot part, are impressed by larger power numbers.
In a similar fashion, measuring at a higher THD level will yield a higher power rating. And worst, the specs indicate a THD rating at 1khz. Wow, that's a double whammy!! Not only will the measurement yield a higher power figure at 1khz, but you up the ante when you measure it both at 1khz and at 1%THD.
And the final insult to this ignominy, they will sell a 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 channel receiver but rate it only in STEREO MODE. Some with only ONE channel driven. That's just fine really. Except that on the salesfloor, the salesguy will banner a 100wpc 5.1 receiver as having 100watts PER channel. Never mind if the customer will actually get less as the rating was made with only one channel driven or in stereo. It really isn't a deliberate deception. Consumers just have to read the finer prints on the specification table and understand their implications. But for those who don't, the effect is the same: false expectation.
Well, not really the final insult. Here's the final. Notwithstanding all those lax measurement conditions, one look at the electrical power consumption will tell you the extent of the marketing hype the vendor is willing to foist on the unwary customer. This particular unit can be blatant enough to advertise 100w + 100w + ek, ek on its 7.1 channels. That's a whooping 700 watts of output power. Does the customer expect all those watts at home? HE should, if he wants to. But he won't get them cause the receiver can't. Check the power consumption and it's a measly 300 watts or so. Where o where will the gear get the additional power?
People can enjoy their gears measured under such conditions and I couldn't give a hoot. Afterll people can be satistified listening to MP3s on their cellphones and I wouldn't quesiton that as it is a personal subjective experience in this hobby. But I can question anything that is published on paper to describe a product. Especially, if what is published doesn't square with the laws of physics or with the decency I can only find in conservative rating. And I was simply pointing out that there are overhyped products and there are conservatively rated products that have better claims to my buying preference. If, after learning all this, people still prefer overhyped produts, be my guest.
THD ratings are just one of those things to consider when buying a receiver of amplifier. On their own, they don't necessarily tell you how good an amp will sound. A 1% or 10% THD won't tell you how good or bad an amp sounds unless they are driven at full power. But for me, after seeing almost everything in this hobby, such specifications reveal the marketing eagerness with which the manufacturer would like to foist a promise that can never be fulfilled on the unsuspecting. And his wanton abandon of the conservatism that accompanies many other specficitions in other brands that have found respect among serious audiophiles.
But, then again, we're in mass market receiver territory where the battlefield is often fought on who's got the higher numbers. Separates, which still practice conservative rating, may be entirely on a different plane. They don't compete as fiercely as among receivers who often have to rely on creative selling techniques to thrive, and overhyping specs is just one of them. Much of their selling is geared towards niche marketing. So maybe my comparisons are strained. So for those who enjoy overhyped products, I really have no quarel with them. This hobby is open to anyone of whatever persuasion.
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It is so obvious that the measurement was made in order to get a higher power rating. Why not just advertise at as a 90wpc receiver then? If that's not marketing hype to make the receiver enter the the 100watt club
This where we differ. I believe that the power measurement was made to comply with DIN, so that Pioneer can sell their amps/receivers in some parts of Europe. The power measurement spec was qouted from the manual not the ads.
You introduced marketing to this thread.
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Sabi ng Pioneer:
Anytime you see a power rating that says “x watts @ 1 kHz,” look out.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/Files/14022.pdf
Ano ang marketing hype dito?
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IT is so obvious what the Pioneer rep stated at the start of the article. Read it again. He said the power measurement was done at 1% THD. And it could very well be that the receiver has a 0.09% THD at 90 watts. It is so obvious that the measurement was made in order to get a higher power rating. Why not just advertise at as a 90wpc receiver then? If that's not marketing hype to make the receiver enter the the 100watt club, you have so much to learn about marketing.
I borrowed words :-[ : In this hobby anyone is free to make their interpretation (including yours above) , right or wrong. ;D
There is another thread for 5-channel measurement. :-X That is the appropriate thread for this different topic that can also be a never-ending cycle of discussion.
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Sabi ng Pioneer:
Anytime you see a power rating that says “x watts @ 1 kHz,” look out.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/Files/14022.pdf
Ano ang marketing hype dito?
I have nothing against the first parts of that aritcle. I just hope every receiver that Pioneer sells has such a section appended to it. But its ramblings on distortion doesn't clairfy and gives the impression that it's OK to have high THDs as it's "relationship to real world listening is not always clear."
And they're not making it any clearer. But that's is beside the point. I am not debating on whether 1% THD is audible or not. Or if it matters. I couldn't give a hoot if it's heard by some and not by others. I certainly will not patronize any product that has shameless amounts of it where they rate their power.
The point is simple. You measure your RMS voltage at a higher THD level and you get higher power ratings by computation. The higher the power you can extract but within so and so standards, you are being creative in describing your product. Even higher when you measure just at 1khz. All the better to give the impression to unwary customers that your product is muscled. When it is not. If that's not marketing hype for you, I couldn't care less.
If you want to be defensive about your beloved pioneer 811s product, go ahead, I expect nothing less from you. It won't change the fact that at 1% THD, it gets a higher power rating than it should. If that's just OK with you, I have no quarel with that.
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If you want to be defensive about your beloved pioneer 811s product
My point is also simple and you failed to see it. ???
Btw, i do not own a pioneer 811s. ;)
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It won't change the fact that at 1% THD, it gets a higher power rating than it should. If that's just OK with you, I have no quarel with that.
Sorry, if this becomes repetitive but for the sake of clarity:
Will Pioneer be able to sell their amplifiers/receivers legally in European countries where DIN applies, if it specifies 0.09% THD at 90 watts?
What if it specifies x watts @ 1 kHz?
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in fairness to the brand and model being mentioned in this thread, let's all take notice of the fact that Pioneer is not the only manufacturer that discloses output power at 1% THD, and that the VSX-D811 is not the only receiver model that has disclosed specs at 1% THD.
i search google for "1% THD receiver" and i see pioneer, kenwood, sony, yamaha, panasonic.... even "10% THD" yields results.
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If you want to be defensive about your beloved pioneer 811s product, go ahead, I expect nothing less from you. It won't change the fact that at 1% THD, it gets a higher power rating than it should. If that's just OK with you, I have no quarel with that.
I started this thread and i dont intend to defend the PIONEER product i own and maybe all the other audio equipments i have. In fact i also own a Denon and a Yamaha. My only intention is really to understand this 1% THD issue which have been frequently mentioned in many of the threads here. -- ;)
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What I think Sir AV is saying regarding hyping, is that in order for some manufacturers to post higher power ratings, they tend to give less consideration to THDs. So let's not call it hyping, let's call it marketing technique. They may not be lying, but they certainly wouldn't mind if you never understood what that THD meant. For the less informed, this may seem like deception when they do find out and understand those specs. It would be better, for me and Sir AV I think at least, if manufacturers observe some sort of code/regulation or understanding not to post specs that have THD's higher than 0.1%. This would definitely make the playing field more fair and give rise to better performing amps and reveal the not so good performing ones. Remember the Tide commercial about the lumpia? Mas malaki nga yung isa at the same price but konti ang laman. Parang detergent na may chalk? I hope this finally clarifies where Sir AV is getting at. He's just arming everybody with knowledge that may help someday.
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I started this thread and i dont intend to defend the PIONEER product i own and maybe all the other audio equipments i have. In fact i also own a Denon and a Yamaha. My only intention is really to understand this 1% THD issue which have been frequently mentioned in many of the threads here. -- ;)
Well, I hope you have learned something. ;)
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He's just arming everybody with knowledge that may help someday.
This is what I was doing ever since I joined this thread. To give accurate understanding of THD for everybody.
More music,
JojoD
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This is what I was doing ever since I joined this thread. To give accurate understanding of THD for everybody.
More music,
JojoD
Yo! 8)
Now we know THD. ;)
Now we know different regulations. :)
And some think they know better than those who established regulations and better than those that followed the regulations. :P
And I think when they spotted the same product rated with a different regulation, they still won't believe. ???
Ayoko na! na! na! na! (echo ito) ;D Paiba-iba ng tema. Paikot-ikot na depensa.
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He's just arming everybody with knowledge that may help someday.
I hope that ARM is not AIMED at you! ;D
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from unknowing customer like me, i call this marketing hype. they maybe telling the truth but what they do is to package their product in such a way that it would look more attractive to customers not equipped with knowledge like most of you have. fortunately for the manufacturer, greater percentage of their customers don't pay attention to details and fall prey to this hype.
before i joined this forum, i'll always look at the power rating. Higher number the better. Other details are just an added bonus. Boy, I was wrong!!!
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from unknowing customer like me, i call this marketing hype. they maybe telling the truth but what they do is to package their product in such a way that it would look more attractive to customers not equipped with knowledge like most of you have. fortunately for the manufacturer, greater percentage of their customers don't pay attention to details and fall prey to this hype.
before i joined this forum, i'll always look at the power rating. Higher number the better. Other details are just an added bonus. Boy, I was wrong!!!
Alas! Haaay Salamat!!!! Ditto. Finally, somebody finally got it, right Sir AV? :)
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let's see how different manufacturers disclose the specifications in their brochures:
Brand A) stereo continuous ave. power (FTC): 65W/ch, 20Hz-20kHz @ <0.07% THD, both channels driven into 8 ohms
- hmmmm, all necessary info are disclosed.... hooray for Brand A !!! ;D
Brand B) power output: 90W/ch (8 ohms)
- minimal information, no disclosure on THD, continuous or maximum, freq. range, which channels driven, etc. nada. :P
Brand C) maximum output power (8 ohms, 1kHz, 10% THD): 135W x 7
- all channels driven, but just the maximum power at 10% THD !!! :P :P
Brand D) stereo power: 100W/ch (L/R, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.03% THD, 6 ohms)
- almost there, but it doesn't say if continuous or dynamic
guess what, they all actually sound pretty good, and the numbers don't indicate if one unit sounds any better than the other..... if there's anything the numbers tell me, its that you can't use the specs for comparison, unless within the same brand...... fact is, among these 4 receivers i would probably buy C if i already have a separate amp for audio, B if leaning more on audio, and A for mixed HT & audio.
if only the power ratings were measured under the same conditions....
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I have an actual experience of what akyatbundok illustrated.
13 years ago, my brother-in-law gave me, as a wedding gift, a Sony Mini-compo with the following rating : Speakers - 6 Ohms; Power Consumption - 220Volts, 60Watts. That's all. Used it for more than 10years.
Year 2000, I was able to buy (sa isang surplus shop) a Pioneer AVR - VSX-D509S with the following specs: 8 Ohms; 100Watts with no more than 0.2% THD (per FTC standard) 2 Channels driven. Forgotten my Sony mini-compo at hinayaang maalikabukan.
Year 2003, yearning to have a stereo only set-up. I bought a surplus integrated amp, Sansui Alpha-607U, don't know the specs but I guess better than Pioneer AVR.
3 or 4 months ago, somebody told me to use my sony mini-compo to drive my diamond 8.3. Whoa!!! what a sound!!!! So here's what happened to my other gears: Sansui Alpha-607U - used as pre-amp na lang ng turntable ko; Pioneer AVR - surround and center channel amp, subwoofer pre-amp when watching movies.
My sony mini-compo beat my two other gears (Stereo listening-wise) and I don't even know its THD!
There's more to music than your amps THD rating, for me. ;D Jungle Bells ,Jungle Bells, Jungle Bells All The Way ;D
I hope we refrain from using the words "HPYE", "HYPING"; "UNTRUTHFUL" in this thread. I guess nobody deserve to be called by such terminologies. Manufacturers just adhere to the standard set by certain governing bodies at kung hindi, baka maraming nang nademandang company for telling other things aside from that mandated by the law. Pero so far wala akong alam na nangyari ito. If you want to know the "real" specs of the gear you're about to buy, why not just call the technical department of the manufacturer and ask them the real score if you still don't believe or have doubts on the specs written in their manual. Mas matrabaho nga lang pero at least alam mo na hindi ka magogoyo pagbili mo. Ako lang naman ito. ;D
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guess what, they all actually sound pretty good, and the numbers don't indicate if one unit sounds any better than the other..... if there's anything the numbers tell me, its that you can't use the specs for comparison, unless within the same brand......
;D
Have I seen you from the new school? ;)
Let's have a toast . . . of gulaman! ;D
Performance can only be known by real-world listening and testing. I must admit, relying too much on (THD, para di OT ;D) specs and judging with just (THD, ayan dalawa na para lalong hindi OT ;D) specs (even for first level ellimination of options), are for beginners.
I dedicate posts below to all my classmates who learned the art of evaluating true "audiophile" ??? performance! 8) (with due respect to Rotel, Adcom, tube amps - no personal pugn intended - quoted verbatim). Everything is opinion, be the judge.
From LeBob of Alabama -
Comparing this (TDA7384) amp to my tube gear, no compromise SE 2A3, 6V6 SE and 2A3 PP, and two vintage PP tube amps, this amplifier is really quite amazing; serious bass, good high frequency extension, and very fast transient response... I can say without doubt that it sounds much better than a newer 135 watts per channel Rotell solid state amp I compared it to using the same speakers and source. ...
A friend from school who is working with me on this project came to my house to listen to the amp. He says his new Adcom may be on Ebay very soon.
From Carlos of Portugal -
... I made a small amp with OPA548 chips and two single voltage 15V/3A trafos for a friend of mine. He compared my (his) small amp with a shiny new 5-star rating Rotell 1062 integrated amp on a demo room, with expensive B&W speakers. It was clear that the little amp had a level of detail and faithfulness to the music that the Rotel could only dream of.
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I hope that ARM is not AIMED at you! ;D
;D ;D ;D
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in fairness to the brand and model being mentioned in this thread, let's all take notice of the fact that Pioneer is not the only manufacturer that discloses output power at 1% THD, and that the VSX-D811 is not the only receiver model that has disclosed specs at 1% THD.
i search google for "1% THD receiver" and i see pioneer, kenwood, sony, yamaha, panasonic.... even "10% THD" yields results.
Yup, pioneer is just one of them. Seems a lot of Japanece products for the mass market do. I really couldn't care any less why. All I know is that if the power measurement is done at higher THD levels, the higher the numbers on power can be obtained. It's that simple. In another forum, somebody opined that the mass market playing field has never been even - a problem that the FTC tried to address. And in that market, it's all a power numbers game for most unwary consumers. That's another reason for those PMPO banners on 10,000watts.
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let's see how different manufacturers disclose the specifications in their brochures:
Brand A) stereo continuous ave. power (FTC): 65W/ch, 20Hz-20kHz @ <0.07% THD, both channels driven into 8 ohms
- hmmmm, all necessary info are disclosed.... hooray for Brand A !!! ;D
Brand B) power output: 90W/ch (8 ohms)
- minimal information, no disclosure on THD, continuous or maximum, freq. range, which channels driven, etc. nada. :P
Brand C) maximum output power (8 ohms, 1kHz, 10% THD): 135W x 7
- all channels driven, but just the maximum power at 10% THD !!! :P :P
Brand D) stereo power: 100W/ch (L/R, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.03% THD, 6 ohms)
- almost there, but it doesn't say if continuous or dynamic
guess what, they all actually sound pretty good, and the numbers don't indicate if one unit sounds any better than the other..... if there's anything the numbers tell me, its that you can't use the specs for comparison, unless within the same brand...... fact is, among these 4 receivers i would probably buy C if i already have a separate amp for audio, B if leaning more on audio, and A for mixed HT & audio.
if only the power ratings were measured under the same conditions....
Under normal comfortable listening conditions in a typical room, you would hardly go beyond 5 watts per channel, so that all those amplifiers sound about the same at that level. They could very have the same amplifier circuit topologies, the same linear operating characteristics, the same NFB circuits. But they are rated differently using different measurement conditions. One could be rated at 0.1% THD, the other at 10%THD. One could be rated with ALL channels driven, the other with only 1 channel driven. One could be rated only at 1Khz, another at full bandwidth. All these measurement conditions will yield different power numbers for even the SAME amp. But I can safely bet which one will be most interesting to marketing officials who would want to gain more market shares.
Power ratings among respected brands under the FTC rulings have always had a level playing field. THis has been taken for granted for so long among seasoned audiophiles. So that it is fairly a no brainer to compare the specsheets of a Krell with a Meridian with a Bryston or with a Musical Fidelity, a Rotel, an HK, et, etc. Not just within the same brand. We rarely dwelt on the subject of THD as most of these brands trumpet THD, IM and TIM levels well below 0.1%. Every amplifer will try to outsell each other with the LEAST THD numbers and with the MOST power figure. But it seems receivers these days have their own agenda.
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Total Harmonic Distortion? THD
Ill go for the TDH.
Totally De Hydrated na ako sa mga nabasa ko sa forum na ito! hahahahaha ??? ??? ???
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La nabang hihirit dito?-- ;D
maidagdag ko lang po, ----- if all our audio equipments have their own THDs, is there a way to compute the sum total of THDs comin from all these gears when all the signals that passed through the gears have already been transformed into a sound signal? ::)
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I think you simply add them up. 0.02% from a player + 0.02% from the reciever = 0.04% total. If you know the THD of your speaker, then just add it.
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oK--- bro av_phile1, we just have to add up pala.
I understand that as the Amp's volume is increased, so with its THD. The speaker's reaction is dependent upon the signal it gets from the amp. Does its THD also increase proportionate to the signal it receives from the amp? Now, if the amp gets signal from a source, such as a CD player, does the THD of the player increases too? thnks again ..
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Sir Av,
Question! Kahit ba digital signals may THD din? Or lesser sya? Kasi I've seen it dati on cable, just forgot the show, that if digital signal na daw and optics na ang ginagamit, lesser ang distortion. Thanks. ;D
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THD is an anomaly in the analog domain. No such thing in digital.
I can only guess that the show must be referring to radio broadcasting using analog-based fiber optic tranmission cables. Distortion from AM and FM broadcasting using fiber optic cables often result in intermodulation and crosstalk distortions arsing from various signal carriers travelling on the same path. No such problem when using digitally converted AM and FM broadcast. That is why digital AM and FM broadcast is superior in terms of fidelity.
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How about connections of dvd players to amps via optical cable? Is there a considerable amount of distortion coming from the source if it's connected digitally? Thanks Sir AV. God Bless.
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None that I am aware of. If the CD mix came from analog sources that had distortions to begin with, transcribing them to digital will also digitally encode the distortions.
You may be alluding to NOISE as anything added to a signal that was not there to begin with distorts the signal. It's possible, and in fact many players and soundcards do, that there is more considerable noise at the digital output than in the analog output. In that case, you may be better off using the analog output than the digital route. This is often an academic exercise as the THD+N figures obtained from a Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) test is more visible on the scope than audible in your system.
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oK--- bro av_phile1, we just have to add up pala.
I understand that as the Amp's volume is increased, so with its THD. The speaker's reaction is dependent upon the signal it gets from the amp. Does its THD also increase proportionate to the signal it receives from the amp? Now, if the amp gets signal from a source, such as a CD player, does the THD of the player increases too? thnks again ..
Sorry for late response, had problems with the ISP last Friday. To your first question, in general, yes, my undrstanding is that the speaker's distortion rises with higher signal voltage fed into it.
Regarding your last question, I don't see how the CD player's THD will rise because of the amp.
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Thanks sir AV. :)
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hi ....
medyo old topic pero me gusto lang po ako iclarify
if pioneer advertises "100 watts per channel at 1%THD" ..... what would be the correct wattage per channel for well below 0.1% THD? 90 watts??
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hi ....
medyo old topic pero me gusto lang po ako iclarify
if pioneer advertises "100 watts per channel at 1%THD" ..... what would be the correct wattage per channel for well below 0.1% THD? 90 watts??
typically, half your power and your dead sure THD is way way below the 1%.
also note an important rule of thumb. 1% THD is accepted as the threshold of good amp design. The reason is that 1% THD is hardly recognizable by mere human hearing. This has been illustrated and proven in many listening challenge.
I have a kenwood mini compo, 80watts at 10% THD, but at 64watts at .04% THD (the specs provided it also).
Further, listening in a typical room is only from 1-10watts (typically loud na po ito - your neighbor may scorn at you na) depending on your speaker's sensitivity.
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thanks for this tip :)
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typically, half your power and your dead sure THD is way way below the 1%.
agreed, the new thinking these days is that THD figures alone do not tell the whole story about an amp......rather the contents.....odd order harmonics, like the 3rd and so forth are offensive to the ears....wheras even order ones are not....so, depends on distortion spectrum, mere numbers alone is not sufficient.....tube amps have even higher distortion figures, and yet many are hooked on their sound..... ;D
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agreed, the new thinking these days is that THD figures alone do not tell the whole story about an amp......rather the contents.....odd order harmonics, like the 3rd and so forth are offensive to the ears....wheras even order ones are not....so, depends on distortion spectrum, mere numbers alone is not sufficient.....tube amps have even higher distortion figures, and yet many are hooked on their sound..... ;D
yes sir. for solid state, 1% should be the max tolerable in paper specs (I really mean paper specs), but will not be an indication of good sound (same with those with THD below .1%).
Yes, the tube has more distortion, but as said by you, this distortion will not indicate that the amp sounds bad. Thus, this does not stop the inclination of many hobbyist going this route.
For other amp, they have specs up to 10% THD. But at half power, this amp is also clean at below .1% THD (like my kenwood amp). Of course, in some bad generic sellers, you should always have second thoughts - or I would say don't have it (second thought) at all. Just avoid them.
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if you dont pump your amp to the specified power of 100w then the1%THD is nothing. ;)
Btw, nice to see this thread rollin again ;D
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yes sir. for solid state, 1% should be the max tolerable in paper specs (I really mean paper specs), but will not be an indication of good sound (same with those with THD below .1%).
Yes, the tube has more distortion, but as said by you, this distortion will not indicate that the amp sounds bad. Thus, this does not stop the inclination of many hobbyist going this route.
For other amp, they have specs up to 10% THD. But at half power, this amp is also clean at below .1% THD (like my kenwood amp). Of course, in some bad generic sellers, you should always have second thoughts - or I would say don't have it (second thought) at all. Just avoid them.
there is more....how the amp behaves when driven into clipping is also a good indicator of the quality of the amp...SS amps have the tendency to oscillate in the inaudible region when driven into clipping..that is the reason they get the bad rap....
there are two ways for the amp to clip, one is input overload, both signal amplitude and frequency can make the input stages of the amp to overload....then there is output overload, loading the amp with speakers it can not drive well....
the thing is when using ss amps, don't play them at very high levels to avoid clipping....likewise, do not feed it signals that it can not handle..and don't connect too many speakers on the amp....
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there is more....how the amp behaves when driven into clipping is also a good indicator of the quality of the amp...SS amps have the tendency to oscillate in the inaudible region when driven into clipping..that is the reason they get the bad rap....
there are two ways for the amp to clip, one is input overload, both signal amplitude and frequency can make the input stages of the amp to overload....then there is output overload, loading the amp with speakers it can not drive well....
the thing is when using ss amps, don't play them at very high levels to avoid clipping....likewise, do not feed it signals that it can not handle..and don't connect too many speakers on the amp....
As faR as speakers connected to the amp is concerned, as long as it can handle them i think there will be no problem. My pioneer handles 2 sets of speakers in each of its 6 channels and i observe no distortion whatsoever even when i pump up the power to 10 db.
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As faR as speakers connected to the amp is concerned, as long as it can handle them i think there will be no problem. My pioneer handles 2 sets of speakers in each of its 6 channels and i observe no distortion whatsoever even when i pump up the power to 10 db.
as long as you use your amp sensibly, there should be no problem.....