PinoyDVD: The Pinoy Digital Video & Devices Community
Home Theater => Audio => Tubes => Topic started by: Rab_w02 on Mar 11, 2005 at 06:14 PM
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Mga Bosing,
i'd like to have your opinion kung ano ang mas efficient overall ,ang SS ba o Tube Amp.
i'm planning to buy one , but first i would like to understand the theory behind this 2 amps.
Learning from expert opinions will help me a lot about having the final decision.Ibig ko sabihin eh from your experience pa lang marami na kong matututunan.
Mga Sir ang alam ko lang kasi eh makinig pero bukod dun wala na akong alam about this 2 amps.
Thanks!
::) :) :D
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are you an audiophiler? or more of home movies ang paggagamitan mo. if audio ang focus mo, definitely iba tunog ng de tubo. i'm based in butuan and even if this is a very small city marami akong kilala dito that prefers tube amp in their system (mga audiophile ang mga ito).
as for me kasi i'm using right now a surround sound system for my movies, later on i'm going to set up hopefully a tube amp equipment. if you wanna listen to the brass instruments and mahilig ka sa baho "da best" talaga de tubo. the longer you listen to it, the more sensitive your ears will be to music pare. :)
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This thread risks reviving the SS versus Tube debates.
It shouldn't. For me, tubes and SS amps fulfill different listening objectives. One aims to meet high-fidelity objectives of transparency and neutrality. The other aims for euphony or what is pleasant to the ears. Whichever you want, this audiophilic hobby can accommodate both.
The difference lies in the operation of these devices. But that often takes the backseat over the listening pleasures you derive from either devices and the objective you want accomplished.
Tubes provide a more relaxed, smoother, fuller-bodied and airer listening experience. That's because tube sounds are what many pundits call COLORED. They have rich second order harmonic distortions that can make any recorded signal sound fuller, warmer and more present. Hence, tubes ADD something to the recorded material. The addition makes them Euphonic, or pleasant to the ears - something that can be very appealing in comparison with SS amps. In addition, tubes can be driven hard at full volume and distort more forgivingly. Thus, you don't get the grating harshness found in SS which at loud volumes tend to produce third and higher odd-order harmonic distortions that are unpleasant to the ears. There's lesser incidence of listening fatigue with tubes.
And precisely because of the tube's even-ordered harmonic coloration, they tend to sound louder than an SS amp of the same wattage. Harmonic distortions have a way of making the signal fatter or louder as those harmonics add up to increase the amplitude of the fundamental frequencies. Hence, a 2-watt single ended triode driven at full volume can fill a typical room more pleasantly than a similar 2-watt SS amp that would start to dish out unpleasantries at that level. ;D
Tubes, especially SETs (Single-Ended Triode), benefit a lot from and are often mated with highly efficient speakers hovering in the 94db ++ range. Hence, it should not be surprising that a 2-watt SET driving such a 94db speaker set can sound just as powerful or more powerful than a 20watt SS amp driving an 86db speaker set.
OTH, SS designs have almost reached the peak of their potentials to give the listener virtually non-existent harmonic and non-harmonic distortion products at comfortable or even the loudest volume levels for the more expensive ones. They serve the high fidelity objective of neutrally passing the recorded signals without adding to or subtracting from them, thus, revealing the recorded material with the highest transparency. They have less coloration than tubes.
SS desgns take advantage of their ability to deliver more current/power than tube designs can at commercial prices. Audiophiles will never need all that 300watts per channel RMS in a typical room from a Bryston or Aragon SS amps. But the distortions at even half such a power guarantees that the amp would be operating at its linear operating range with almost no form of harmonic and non-harmonic distortion to speak of, thus ensuring the recorded signal to pass through untouched, so to speak. In short, SS amps behave more like a straight wire with gain - the very purpose of hi-fi gears.
Admittedly, SET Tube amps have simpler circuits - its simpler topography lends themselves to the straight-wire-with-gain concept. But for most audiophiles, the fact that they color the sound discounts such a description. (There are SETs that do have less coloration. They are mostly very expensive.)
The euphony of SETs are often lost when you start using the more powerful push-pull tube amps. So if you want more power, SS is the way to go. But if you want euphonic pleasantries, SET is the way to go. Just make sure you have very efficient speakers so you can have some decent muscle when you feel like impressing the neighbors. ;D
If you want power, SS is it. IF you want euphonic sounds, SET is it. If you want to hear the recorded material in all its ugliness or beauty, a good SS amp will reveal them all with nothing added. If you want any recording to sound more euphonic than how it was recorded, SET is the way to go. Personally, if I have to go tubes, I'd go SET, not push-pull. Push-pull tubes deliver more power. But if I need power I'd go SS. Just my thoughts.
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This thread risks reviving the SS versus Tube debates.
It shouldn't. For me, tubes and SS amps fulfill different listening objectives. One aims to meet high-fidelity objectives of transparency and neutrality. The other aims for euphony or what is plesant to the ears. Whichever you want, this audiophilic hobby can accommodate both.
The difference lies in the operation of these devices. But that often takes the backseat over the listening pleasures you derive from either devices and the objective you want accomplished.
Tubes provide a more relaxed, smoother, fuller-bodied and airer listening experience. That's because tube sounds are what many pundits call COLORED. They have rich second order harmonic distortions that can make any recorded signal sound fuller, warmer and more present. Hence, tubes ADD something to the recorded material. The addition makes them Euphonic, or pleasant to the ears - something that can be very appealing in comparison with SS amps. In addition, tubes can be driven hard at full volume and distort more forgivingly. Thus, you don't get the grating harshness found in SS which at loud volumes tend to produce third and higher odd-order harmonic distortions that are unpleasant to the ears. There's lesser incidence of listening fatigue with tubes.
And precisely because of the tube's even-ordered harmonic coloration, they tend to sound louder than an SS amp of the same wattage. Harmonic distortions have a way of making the signal fatter or louder as those harmonics add up to increase the amplitude of the fundamental frequencies. Hence, a 2-watt single ended triode driven at full volume can fill a typical room more pleasantly than a similar 2-watt SS amp that would start to dish out unpleasantries at that level. ;D
Tubes, especially SETs (Single-Ended Triode), benefit a lot from and are often mated with highly efficient speakers hovering in the 94db ++ range. Hence, it should not be surprising that a 2-watt SET driving such a 94db speaker set can sound just as powerful or more powerful than a 20watt SS amp driving an 86db speaker set.
OTH, SS designs have almost reached the peak of their potentials to give the listener virtually non-existent harmonic and non-harmonic distortion products at comfortable or even the loudest volume levels for the more expensive ones. They serve the high fidelity objective of neutrally passing the recorded signals without adding to or subtracting from them, thus, revealing the recorded material with the highest transparency. They have less coloration than tubes.
SS desgns take advantage of their ability to deliver more current/power than tube designs can at commercial prices. Audiophiles will never need all that 300watts per channel RMS in a typical room from a Bryston or Aragon SS amps. But the distortions at even half such a power guarantees that the amp would be operating at its linear operating range with almost no form of harmonic and non-harmonic distortion to speak of, thus ensuring the recorded signal to pass through untouched, so to speak. In short, SS amps behave more like a straight wire with gain - the very purpose of hi-fi gears.
The euphony of SETs are often lost when you start using the more powerful push-pull tube amps. So if you want more power, SS is the way to go. But if you want euphonic pleasantries, SET is the way to go. Just make sure you have very efficient speakers so you can have some decent muscle when you feel like impressing the neighbors. ;D
If you want power, SS is it. IF you want euphonic sounds, SET is it. If you want to hear the recorded material in all its ugliness or beauty, a good SS amp will reveal them all with nothing added. If you want any recording to sound better than how it was recorded, SET is the way to go. Personally, if I have to go tubes, I'd got SET, not push-pull. Push-pull tubes deliver more power. But if I need power I'd go SS. Just my thoughts.
Mr. Rab_w02 i guess all the basic info you need for your query are here. the answer really depends on what are you going to use it for. Audio or just home theater. nasa sayo yung decision. very subjective rin bro ang bagay na 'to once nakapag set-up ka na... Good luck!
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Sir talisman30,
mahilig ako sa concert dvd's pero mas madalas ako sa cd's.Pagkagaling sa trabaho audio muna ako para maka pagrelax.And my interest are female vocals,instrumental jazz yung parang nasa harapan mo lang yung band ang gus2 kong tunog.Wala ako alam sa tubes mahal ata yun eh?SS naman nakikita ko lang sa malls kaya lang nkkhiya pag di ka naman bibili.he he!!My budget sa ngayon eh 25k sa amps lang.2 channel lang naman.B&W ang speaker ko 602 pero di ko pa nagagamit ,maganda yung tunog nya sa yamaha ng friend ko pero parang hihiwa ng tenga minsan di ko alam kung sa CD yun.
Sir AV_PHILE,
Sir salamat ,sa input mo pa lang dami ko kaagad nalaman ah,pero parang you 're more inclined sa TUBE-you tend to elaborate more sa TUBEs eh...Sa 25k ano ba brand ang maganda na and kung stetched pa budget kaunti ano rin yung maganda..Maintenance sa tube baka mamulubi naman ako pero basta maganda OK lang napapag-ipunan yun he he...SS , wat brand?
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We have several threads here that can help you understand more what is a tube amp. Another option would be going to wiredstate.com.
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Rab_w02,
Here's an article that we picked up from the net about valve amplifiers:
Why should you buy a valve amplifier? The simple answer is Valve amplifiers sound different to transistor amplifiers.
You could pick up almost any hi-fi magazine and you will read about :-
i) transistor amplifiers that claim to sound like valve amplifiers
ii) transistor amplifiers that sound sweet, almost like valve amplifiers
iii) sweet treble, almost like a valve amplifier
Valve amplifiers will reduce the harsh sound in most hi-fi systems, without losing the treble and musical details.
Many transistor amplifiers sound harsh and emphasise the harsh sound of CD players.
Many transistor amplifiers tend to over-emphasise the sibilance of female singers (where words like "his" will sound like "hissssttt").
Class A valve amplifiers do NOT have crossover distortion at low levels.
Class A valve amplifiers allow you to hear the "silence" between the notes.
Class A valve amplifiers allow you to hear a note , or the dying echo of the note in the concert hall.
Class A valve amplifiers have an amazing "silence" between the notes and instruments,
which creates an amazing stereo image on good loudspeakers.
If you adjust the volume control, so that the vocals are as loud as an actual singer (no louder nor softer),
and close your eyes , your ears could be tricked into believing that someone else is in the room !
It is an eerie sensation !
99% of transistor amplifiers have a lot of "crossover" distortion at low levels.
The transistorised "crossover" distortion drowns out the ambience/reverberations/echoes of a recording.
You will hear a note, followed by a faint noise (i.e. crossover distortion) followed by another note, followed by a faint noise (i.e. crossover distortion). You will never hear the "silence" between the notes on 99% of transistor amplifiers.
"Hidden" distortion of transistorised amplifiers and loudspeakers.
Have you ever wondered why manufacturers never quote distortion figures of transistor amplifiers at low levels?
It is because the distortion levels of transistor amplifiers at low levels are a disgrace !
( Low levels mean the dying echo of a musical note in a concert hall.)
It is pointless to claim that the amplifier has 0.1% distortion at 30 watts,
because most loudspeakers will have about 5% to 20% of distortion for 30 watts of a bass note !
The distortion of loudspeakers is so bad that
most manufacturers do not quote distortion figures for loudspeakers !
Even big and expensive speakers like the £6,000 B&W Nautilus 802
have 1% distortion for 1 watt bass note !
This is a very good result. Most other speakers have much higher distortion !
How much distortion do you think that your smaller and cheaper speakers have ?
Why don't you ask your speaker manufacturer why they do not publish distortion figures ?
If valve amplifiers are so good, why aren't valve amplifiers more popular ?
The simple answer is price and output power.
For example, an established and well respected company produces a beautifully made
and good sounding £2,500 amplifier , which uses EL34 valves to produce 45 Watts.
For example, another established and well respected company produces a nice looking
£850 preamplifier and matching power amplifier which produces 8 Watts.
How much power do you need ?
18 watts to 30 watts will be sufficient for 99% of people and their neighbours !
Large efficient loudspeakers do not need a lot of power.
Small inefficient loudspeakers cannot cope with 18 Watts
(regardless of the absurd nonsensical claims made by the marketing department of loudspeaker companies.)
Cheaper valve amplifiers ? ( Part 1 )
If you investigate the claims of companies that claim to sell cheaper "valve" amplifiers,
you will find that some "valve" amplifiers use a lot of transistors and integrated circuits with 1 or 2 valves !
Most of these "hybrid" valve/transistor amplifiers
are simply a modified version of "Class B" transistor amplifiers,
with all the problems of "Class B" "crossover distortion".
Putting 1 or 2 small valves in a "Class B" transistor amplifier
will not cured this audible problem.
Maybe reviewers are so used to audible "Class B" "crossover distortion" that they do not notice it !
But "Class B" "crossover distortion" makes everything sound bright, with added sibilance and
the "silence between the notes" is replaced by random noise (crossover distortion),
which "masks" the soft echoes or other soft noises in the background.
There are usually soft noise in the background like fingers accidentally brushing against the guitar string !
We recommend that you audition these "hybrid" valve / transistor amplifier
against a "proper" valve amplifier, and let your ears decide !
Cheaper valve amplifiers ? ( Part 2 )
There is a limit to how cheap you can make a valve amplifier, without making huge compromises.
There are cheaper valve amplifiers, but most of these cheaper valve amplifiers uses small valves like ECL86 or EL84 and small transformers.
Small transformer will make human voices sound "blur",
when there is a human voice and bass drum at the same time.
If you put a loud bass drum and human voice at the same time, into a small transformer,
the small transformer will "saturate" and produce a lot of distortion.
This distortion is not as bad as it sounds,
but it makes the human voices sound "blur"
if you are using high quality "3 way" speakers.
To solve this problem, we have to use larger transformer and larger EL34 or KT88 valves.
Most "high end" valve amplifiers use EL34, 6550, KT88 or 300B valves.
KT88 valves are bigger and more expensive than 6550 valve.
KT88 "push pull" will produce much better bass and clearer, more realistic human voices,
than 300B Single Ended valve amplifiers, if you are using high quality "3 way" speakers
There isn't a "High End" amplifier that uses four pieces of EL84 valves or four pieces of ECL86 valves !There are "High End" amplifiers using 8 pieces of EL84 valves,
to double the minuscule power of the small EL84 valve.
But I do not see the point of this exercise. There could be problems using valves in "parallel",
and the traditional way to cure this problem is to use inductors or resistors as "anode stoppers".
Why didn't the amplifier designer use the bigger EL34, 6550 , KT88 valves instead ?
ECL86 valves and small transformersare used in budget equipment.
EL84 valves and smallish transformersare used in "mid" market equipment.
KT66 valvesused in the Quad II is the "upper middle class".
The transformers of the Quad II are comparatively small,
compared to "High End" amplifiers.
EL34 , 6550 , KT88 , 300B valves and big transformers
are used in "High End" equipment.
You will probably think that this is "salesman talk", but we suggest that you try out smaller cheaper amplifiers
like Quad II or Leak Stereo 20 or any amplifier using four pieces of EL84 valves or four pieces of ECL86 valves
against EL34 or KT88 amplifiers and let your ears decide.
Bottom line, a lot of people say a lot of things about a lot of audio gear in the market as they fight for your hard-earned money. But at the end of the day, as what the article says, "Let your ears decide."
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Sir EMV,
I really appreciate your inputs,makes me think twice kung ano pipiliin ko between a Rotel Amp and any Tube Amp na aabot sa budget ko ngayon. mostly na nakita ko sa internet na Tube amp eh 2 knobs and a switch or indicator light lang ang nasa front panel.Wala ba talagang bass and treble knob ang mga Tube amp?,minsan kc naglalaro din ako sa Bass and treble eh pag di ako kuntento minsan sa tunog ng CD.
Pasensya na sa mga stupid questions ko mga Sir...
Nakarinig ako ng Rotel ,ang ganda ng tunog.Pero nakarining din ako ng Tube di ko lang alam ang brand kulay itim sya na piano finish eh ,malalaki ang transformer and valves,maganda rin at malamig sa tenga kaya lang mahal.Yung CAYIN MT-35 sabi nila maganda daw tumunog pero di ko pa naririnig.OK kaya syang match sa BW602 ko?
Thanks!
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Both na lang para ok. Bi-amp your system, use Tube Amp for mid - highs and an SS amp for the low freq. ;)
Seriously, mas efficient ang SS, but I urge you to listen to both SS and Tube amps first aside from knowing what your applications would be i.e. HT or audio only. Tube amps are world renowned for their warmth and accuracy.
Cheers,
JojoD
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edited the title to avoid debates
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Again, it depends on your application, listening preference and budget. I agree that it's a great idea to have both SS and Tube gear running parallel so you enjoy both worlds but again, it boils down to cost.
To be honest with you, I don't know how far your budget of 25k will go so you might want to start keeping an eye on the Equipment Buy & Sell section of this web site so you can stretch your budget. Happy gear hunting :)
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Again, it depends on your application, listening preference and budget. I agree that it's a great idea to have both SS and Tube gear running parallel so you enjoy both worlds but again, it boils down to cost.
To be honest with you, I don't know how far your budget of 25k will go so you might want to start keeping an eye on the Equipment Buy & Sell section of this web site so you can stretch your budget. Happy gear hunting :)
Sorry, I didn't read the whole thread and didn't notice the 25K barrier. ;D I thought efficiency was the only concern.
Anyways, keep on auditioning until you find what suits your preference and application. ;)
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Mga Bosing,
i'd like to have your opinion kung ano ang mas efficient overall ,ang SS ba o Tube Amp.
i'm planning to buy one , but first i would like to understand the theory behind this 2 amps.
Learning from expert opinions will help me a lot about having the final decision.Ibig ko sabihin eh from your experience pa lang marami na kong matututunan.
Mga Sir ang alam ko lang kasi eh makinig pero bukod dun wala na akong alam about this 2 amps.
Thanks!
::) :) :D
I go back to his question: ... mas efficient ...? ;D
Why do you have to leave the new amps - the digital breed - the third force. ;D
The digital revolution now centers in the amplifier. The cheap introduction of T-amp 8), the cheap sharp ;) and teac digital-based :D micro and component system are now being hotly reviewed by high-end users of tube amps and SS gears ( the 6 moons, the TNT audio, etc etc). And from their conclusions, it can be inferred that digital species is about to challenge the high price tag of equivalent or near equivalent tubes. THD talks in trained listeners, even hi end tube users, matters only second :P - the first is to audition performance ::).
And digital, if efficiency is the subject, is the best that the present time offers. :P And also cheap - T-amp being USD 20 (stereo) street price in the US. and nowhere you can find a stock because almost the wind of audiophilia world is toward this small cheap wonder.
But economics will always come in the way of preference. ???
For a tube amp, especially the SET, at 1 or 2 watts, will require not only a hi-sensitivity speaker, but one that will perform well to the listening person. They are the worst in efficiency (electrically). ??? (I wonder what he really meant for "efficient" ;D) And the cost of this SET and the matching speaker will dwarf your 25k budget >:D - not unless you know what you are asking for. For a SET and and a hi-sensitivity full-range are themselves not absolute perfect - you have to sort the pretenders from the performers ;D . Your OWN RISK to loose 25k and no real sonic gained.
Of course you can go the digital amp (the most efficient - again ???) if you source the rated one, and the savings added to a hi-sensitivity good speakers.
Other boutique integrated transistor amps with a good speaker ranges from cheap to as high as SET/hi-sensitive speaker depending on your aesthetic, sonic preferences. Better effieciency than valves (again ???). They are as hungry for your money as the SET/Hi-sensitive speakers.
There are transistor-based amps (op-amps) do not have those hated odd-harmonics anymore, and some articles dealing with valve/transistor amps differences are unearthed from archives already 10 years old ;D and already outdated by technology upheavel :P.
In the end, you have to make up the sound that you want in your head, go out and do your OWN assignment to audition - and finally, COUNT your TOTAL cost before you plunge into the unknown - so you will not be SURPRISED on what you will utimately get! O0
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I have listened and owned several vintage tube amp..from dynaco ST70 1 and 2, Sansui AU 111, Fishers and Scott 299d and when it comes to female Vocals...nothing beats the Scott ...sweet and seductive ang dating niya...
BTW..if your going to use your B&W 602 Push Pull (meaning multiple tubes to drive the speaker) is the way to go..forget SET tubes (1 tube to drive the loudspeaker ) ...not enough power
Decent Used Push Pull amps start out at 30K..from Scott to Dynaco St70.....AMX a local Tube manufacturer has PP amps at the 25K mark but these are SS rectified which produces a more dynamic / faster sound suited for rock music
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Sir talisman30,
mahilig ako sa concert dvd's pero mas madalas ako sa cd's.Pagkagaling sa trabaho audio muna ako para maka pagrelax.And my interest are female vocals,instrumental jazz yung parang nasa harapan mo lang yung band ang gus2 kong tunog.
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Why should you buy a valve amplifier? The simple answer is Valve amplifiers sound different to transistor amplifiers.
You could pick up almost any hi-fi magazine and you will read about :-
i) transistor amplifiers that claim to sound like valve amplifiers
ii) transistor amplifiers that sound sweet, almost like valve amplifiers
iii) sweet treble, almost like a valve amplifier
Valve amplifiers will reduce the harsh sound in most hi-fi systems, without losing the treble and musical details.
Many transistor amplifiers sound harsh and emphasise the harsh sound of CD players.
Many transistor amplifiers tend to over-emphasise the sibilance of female singers (where words like "his" will sound like "hissssttt").
Class A valve amplifiers do NOT have crossover distortion at low levels.
Class A valve amplifiers allow you to hear the "silence" between the notes.
Class A valve amplifiers allow you to hear a note , or the dying echo of the note in the concert hall.
Class A valve amplifiers have an amazing "silence" between the notes and instruments,
which creates an amazing stereo image on good loudspeakers.
If you adjust the volume control, so that the vocals are as loud as an actual singer (no louder nor softer),
and close your eyes , your ears could be tricked into believing that someone else is in the room !
It is an eerie sensation !
99% of transistor amplifiers have a lot of "crossover" distortion at low levels.
The transistorised "crossover" distortion drowns out the ambience/reverberations/echoes of a recording.
You will hear a note, followed by a faint noise (i.e. crossover distortion) followed by another note, followed by a faint noise (i.e. crossover distortion). You will never hear the "silence" between the notes on 99% of transistor amplifiers.
"Hidden" distortion of transistorised amplifiers and loudspeakers.
Have you ever wondered why manufacturers never quote distortion figures of transistor amplifiers at low levels?
It is because the distortion levels of transistor amplifiers at low levels are a disgrace !
( Low levels mean the dying echo of a musical note in a concert hall.)
It is pointless to claim that the amplifier has 0.1% distortion at 30 watts,
because most loudspeakers will have about 5% to 20% of distortion for 30 watts of a bass note !
The distortion of loudspeakers is so bad that
most manufacturers do not quote distortion figures for loudspeakers !
Even big and expensive speakers like the £6,000 B&W Nautilus 802
have 1% distortion for 1 watt bass note !
This is a very good result. Most other speakers have much higher distortion !
How much distortion do you think that your smaller and cheaper speakers have ?
Why don't you ask your speaker manufacturer why they do not publish distortion figures ?
If valve amplifiers are so good, why aren't valve amplifiers more popular ?
The simple answer is price and output power.
For example, an established and well respected company produces a beautifully made
and good sounding £2,500 amplifier , which uses EL34 valves to produce 45 Watts.
For example, another established and well respected company produces a nice looking
£850 preamplifier and matching power amplifier which produces 8 Watts.
How much power do you need ?
18 watts to 30 watts will be sufficient for 99% of people and their neighbours !
Large efficient loudspeakers do not need a lot of power.
Small inefficient loudspeakers cannot cope with 18 Watts
(regardless of the absurd nonsensical claims made by the marketing department of loudspeaker companies.)
Cheaper valve amplifiers ? ( Part 1 )
If you investigate the claims of companies that claim to sell cheaper "valve" amplifiers,
you will find that some "valve" amplifiers use a lot of transistors and integrated circuits with 1 or 2 valves !
Most of these "hybrid" valve/transistor amplifiers
are simply a modified version of "Class B" transistor amplifiers,
with all the problems of "Class B" "crossover distortion".
Putting 1 or 2 small valves in a "Class B" transistor amplifier
will not cured this audible problem.
Maybe reviewers are so used to audible "Class B" "crossover distortion" that they do not notice it !
But "Class B" "crossover distortion" makes everything sound bright, with added sibilance and
the "silence between the notes" is replaced by random noise (crossover distortion),
which "masks" the soft echoes or other soft noises in the background.
There are usually soft noise in the background like fingers accidentally brushing against the guitar string !
We recommend that you audition these "hybrid" valve / transistor amplifier
against a "proper" valve amplifier, and let your ears decide !
Cheaper valve amplifiers ? ( Part 2 )
There is a limit to how cheap you can make a valve amplifier, without making huge compromises.
There are cheaper valve amplifiers, but most of these cheaper valve amplifiers uses small valves like ECL86 or EL84 and small transformers.
Small transformer will make human voices sound "blur",
when there is a human voice and bass drum at the same time.
If you put a loud bass drum and human voice at the same time, into a small transformer,
the small transformer will "saturate" and produce a lot of distortion.
This distortion is not as bad as it sounds,
but it makes the human voices sound "blur"
if you are using high quality "3 way" speakers.
To solve this problem, we have to use larger transformer and larger EL34 or KT88 valves.
Most "high end" valve amplifiers use EL34, 6550, KT88 or 300B valves.
KT88 valves are bigger and more expensive than 6550 valve.
KT88 "push pull" will produce much better bass and clearer, more realistic human voices,
than 300B Single Ended valve amplifiers, if you are using high quality "3 way" speakers
There isn't a "High End" amplifier that uses four pieces of EL84 valves or four pieces of ECL86 valves !There are "High End" amplifiers using 8 pieces of EL84 valves,
to double the minuscule power of the small EL84 valve.
But I do not see the point of this exercise. There could be problems using valves in "parallel",
and the traditional way to cure this problem is to use inductors or resistors as "anode stoppers".
Why didn't the amplifier designer use the bigger EL34, 6550 , KT88 valves instead ?
ECL86 valves and small transformersare used in budget equipment.
EL84 valves and smallish transformersare used in "mid" market equipment.
KT66 valvesused in the Quad II is the "upper middle class".
The transformers of the Quad II are comparatively small,
compared to "High End" amplifiers.
EL34 , 6550 , KT88 , 300B valves and big transformers
are used in "High End" equipment.
The writer of this article is obviously pro-tubes with blinders on and have not heard about some excellent expensive Class A and A/B "transistorized" amps like the Plinius, Bryston, Perraux, McIntosh, Parasound, Thiel, Aragon, etc that can far exceed $5,000 apiece and have no audible crossover distortions whatsoever even at the lowest volumes. His sole experience with SS must have been limited merely with professional "transistorized" amps that do have terrible crossover distortions at low volume levels, precisely because such amps were not meant to be played at low volumes. ;D
High efficiency speakers would be fine for both tubes and SS. Unfortunately, many high efficiency speakers have been known to have the highest coloration and distortions of their own. Ofcourse there are exceptions. But the finest speakers on earth are almost always the most inefficient, requiring amps in excess of 200watts RMS to sing their best.
Yup, 18watts or even below may be just fine for home and neighbors. With most commericals speakers averaging 88db of sensitivity, you can be happy with just 10 watts RMS per channel - that is already loud enough in a typical room. And it is precisely to the advantage of the listener to have an amp with enough muscle, say a 100 watt RMS amp that is rated at 0.01% THD at FULL volume, because at a mere 10-18 watt operation, he can never hear any distortion product. While a tube amp maxed out at 18 watts RMS will have his head swimming with harmonic distortion products at the same volume level.
Funny the writer has to mention about transformers in the tube output stage. It is to the advantage of SS amps that no such devices are on the audio path. As transformers introduce harmonic distortions and worst, lmiit the bandwidth going to the speakers at both ends of the spectrum. If I recall right, Transformers spike at around 80hz, giving the impression there is fuller bass in tubes, (much like those Bose Lifestyle bass modules that peak at around 70hz but can'd go down any lower linearly) But in general, these output stage transformers can't go down further and still behave linearly down to that level.
Here's an excerpt on what transformers do to SET tubes.
SET power amps are famous for their rich, musical midranges, but most are notoriously weak at capably extending their reach up into the trebles and down into the bass. SET power amp topology faces difficult challenges here. For example, output transformers like being fed in a balanced or push-pull mode, but they dislike being fed in a single ended mode, and they present some special limitations when the SET power amp designer forces them to operate in this single ended mode. These limitations imposed by the output transformer can act to worsen distortion and to limit bandwidth, perhaps at both ends of the musical spectrum. Most SET power amps have bass that's weak and/or poorly controlled, and trebles that are dull, rounded, and soft (as well as distorted).
from http://www.iar-80.com/page46.html from the de havilland tube brands that are designed to offset the bandwidth limitations of most SETs.
OTH, I tend to agree with the author when he says no cheap valve amp can really perform and that there is "limit as (sic) to how cheap who can make a valve amplifier." Tubes that are expensive often have a lot of advantage going for them in terms of minmizing the weakness of valve amplification.
It is not enough to have just any tube amps. You have to have a well designed tube amp to sound best. One that capitalizes on its pros and overcomes it inherent weaknesses. Just like it is also not OK to just have any SS amp. There are good and lousy specimens in each. In SS amps, the less use of negative feedback, the better, often found in more meticuously designed amps (read: expensive.) IT is just too bad that whether tube or SS, the best can oftne be oftained from a really expensive set of gears. Again, there may be exceptions. But in general, just because you have an entry-level tube gear doesn't make your system sound better than a mid-priced SS gear.
Just my thoughts.
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Ah SS and Tubes, very nice topic that is somehow eternally cursed! ;D ;D ;D
8)
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[quote ]
... IT is just too bad that whether tube or SS, the best can oftne be oftained from a really expensive set of gears. Again, there may be exceptions. But in general, just because you have an entry-level tube gear doesn't make your system sound better than a mid-priced SS gear. ,,,
LEARN:
Price is certainly an unreliable indicator of sonic excellence!!! ;D
from AUDIO - SCIENCE IN THE SERVICE OF ART (p.15)
BY Floyd E.Toole,Ph.D.
Vice President Acoustical Engineering,Harman International Industries,Inc.
8500 Balboa Boulevard,Northridge,CA 91329
www.harman.com
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To all those on board this forum--again I think that everyone knows that this is a long and difficult topic to discuss. In fact, this section might eat up the entire space on this sites server if we continue at the rate we're going... hehehe. I'm just glad that everyone is contributing his/her own insights on the subject without being "irrational" :)
To Rab_w02, audio is subjective and "personal", as you have seen on the different views presented by members of this site. At the end of the day, "the fruit of the pudding is in the eating" and that you'll be the best judge as to which gear you'll choose and be happy to spend your listening time with. Cheers!!!
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Sir LEVi,
pasensya na Sir,di ko alm na this topic is a re make?don't have the opprtunity to search for the old TOPICs being discussed ,ang dami kasi.
Sir AVphile,
Ang dami ko natututuhan dito sa site especially from you.May mga different point of views ako na nababasa but i would like to take it with an open mind,understanding and learning from different group of people will surely enhanced my knowledge regarding the subject.And I would like to thank all who have expressed their thoughts.
Sir EMV ,mahihirapan ata ako mamili ah,parang gusto ko tuloy eh magbasa na lang ,dami kasi may alam dito sa site.I'm sure mga mahal ang gears nyo.
On the other hand,It will not be appropriate to see or read any debates re: this topic.I wish that everyone will be fair enough to post their opinions without offending the other.alam ko na nasa Tube thread ako and if any SS fanatic na makabasa eh baka maging kasalanan ko pa,Yung mga Earlier post kc eh parang magkakaroon nga ng debate o argument.
Ganito pala katindi ang nabuksan kong TOPIC ,he,he....
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Bro the best way to know and learn is to audition them both without listening to both SS and tube amps will not give you idea what sound your looking for.
Audition lang. :) ;D or attend session kung meron. :)
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bump
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In my 2 cents observation:
Tube Amps
- Sounds smooth and relaxed,
- More suited for music with emphasis on vocals (old school music)
- Transient response is quite slow- makes music sound dragging especially those with emphasis on
percussion like flamenco. laurindo almeida, etc
- Clean treble but not engaging
- Limited type of music
Solid State
- Punchy (bass drum effect more realistic)
- Faster transient response (sounds more engaging)
- Treble have tendency to be harsh (but depends on the speaker system used)
- Vocals may sound comparable to tube amp when paired with a properly matched speaker system
- Will suit to different type of music.
Just my opinion po.
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Can anyone share their experience with tube buffers? Do they really sound good?
I wanted to try this out cuz tube amps wont work for me. My wife always calls me to go up to our room (wag madumi ang isip ;D) before I can have a 1 hr listening session so I wont have time for the tubes to warm up.
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Can anyone share their experience with tube buffers? Do they really sound good?
I wanted to try this out cuz tube amps wont work for me. My wife always calls me to go up to our room (wag madumi ang isip ;D) before I can have a 1 hr listening session so I wont have time for the tubes to warm up.
Bro Matt,
Upon turn on maganda na tube kaso like commercials gaganda pa yan ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I agree, 0%
In my 2 cents observation:
Tube Amps
- Sounds smooth and relaxed,
- More suited for music with emphasis on vocals (old school music)
- Transient response is quite slow- makes music sound dragging especially those with emphasis on
percussion like flamenco. laurindo almeida, etc
- Clean treble but not engaging
- Limited type of music
Solid State
- Punchy (bass drum effect more realistic)
- Faster transient response (sounds more engaging)
- Treble have tendency to be harsh (but depends on the speaker system used)
- Vocals may sound comparable to tube amp when paired with a properly matched speaker system
- Will suit to different type of music.
Just my opinion po.
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Planning to buy Prologue One for my B&W 603. Any advise from owners? Thanks.
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I agree, 0%
salamat po!
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In my 2 cents observation:
Tube Amps
- Sounds smooth and relaxed,
- More suited for music with emphasis on vocals (old school music)
- Transient response is quite slow- makes music sound dragging especially those with emphasis on
percussion like flamenco. laurindo almeida, etc
- Clean treble but not engaging
- Limited type of music
Solid State
- Punchy (bass drum effect more realistic)
- Faster transient response (sounds more engaging)
- Treble have tendency to be harsh (but depends on the speaker system used)
- Vocals may sound comparable to tube amp when paired with a properly matched speaker system
- Will suit to different type of music.
Just my opinion po.
Do you have a tube amp where you able to compare both? I have a simple tube setup but I dont experience your observation. I listen to disco and new wave music.
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hi sir, levi, ganda ng place at mga set-up mo.
actually sir, I dont have a tube amp but we were able to audition/listen to a tube amp set-up. My friend and I brought along our CD (very familiar with the sound) and had took a chance in listening to a Cayin tube amp with JM Focal speakers. Yes! it sounded very clean and smooth. After the test I ask my friend whats his comment and I found out that we have the same observation. Anyway its only an opinion. If others don't agree, let be it but not in a way of presenting like an insult. Probably its sound is dependent with the spkr - amp combination.
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No dont think its an insult. Its just a personal opinion and people can agree or disagree.
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Ask dracula, he has Prima Luna Prologue One! :)
Planning to buy Prologue One for my B&W 603. Any advise from owners? Thanks.
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No dont think its an insult. Its just a personal opinion and people can agree or disagree.
Iba kasi dating e. How can one agree 0% ???
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I am not sure, so I agree 50% ;D
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In my 2 cents observation:
Tube Amps
- Sounds smooth and relaxed,
- More suited for music with emphasis on vocals (old school music)
- Transient response is quite slow- makes music sound dragging especially those with emphasis on
percussion like flamenco. laurindo almeida, etc
- Clean treble but not engaging
- Limited type of music
Solid State
- Punchy (bass drum effect more realistic)
- Faster transient response (sounds more engaging)
- Treble have tendency to be harsh (but depends on the speaker system used)
- Vocals may sound comparable to tube amp when paired with a properly matched speaker system
- Will suit to different type of music.
Just my opinion po.
Very balanced assessment.
That's how I found the differences when scouting for my amps and speaker, with my test materials.
And from your post, it is not a really a matter of tube or SS alone, but how you would build the entire system - matching components & matching music materials! ;D
With that good an assessment, you will save a lot of money too! ;D ;D ;D
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The lack of dynamics some experience with tube amps is gone if you use the appropriate speakers. same as with some solid state amps that will sound harsh if paired with the wrong speakers. Its all about system matching. Both tubes and ss if designed properly and matched with appropriate equipment will sound great. I've heard tube setups playing big band music and i don't hear any lack of dynamics or punch..same as an ss setup which sounds smooth and engaging.
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The lack of dynamics some experience with tube amps is gone if you use the appropriate speakers. same as with some solid state amps that will sound harsh if paired with the wrong speakers. Its all about system matching. Both tubes and ss if designed properly and matched with appropriate equipment will sound great. I've heard tube setups playing big band music and i don't hear any lack of dynamics or punch..same as an ss setup which sounds smooth and engaging.
Oh, you have unearthed to the public our deep secret! ;D ;D ;D
It's our secret to audio Nirvana! ;D ;D ;D
It is also my secret how to save money! ;D Buy cheap ear cleaner, and use your ears when evaluating your entire systems!
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In my 2 cents observation:
Tube Amps
- Sounds smooth and relaxed --> a big yes to this. romantic sounding is my description
- More suited for music with emphasis on vocals (old school music) --> depends on the design of the tube amp and speaker combo..others excel in rock, dance, metal etc as well as an S/S amp.
- Transient response is quite slow- makes music sound dragging especially those with emphasis on
percussion like flamenco. laurindo almeida, etc --> again...depends on what type of tube amp and speaklers used
- Clean treble but not engaging --> I find tubes to be more engaging in the mids and highs as compared to an S/S
- Limited type of music --> well if your tubes are of the low powered variety then this might apply but the big valve ones are exempted from this. again...depends on the design. not all tube amps are created equal
Solid State
- Punchy (bass drum effect more realistic) --> very true
- Faster transient response (sounds more engaging). --> true on the attack observation
- Treble have tendency to be harsh (but depends on the speaker system used) may very well be the source material or the other components in the system that contributes to the harshness. also heard tube based systems that are harsh on the top end. speakers may very well be the culprit as well.
- Vocals may sound comparable to tube amp when paired with a properly matched speaker system ---> many have tried to design such an S/S amp...no one has suceeded. tubes are a different animal altogether
- Will suit to different type of music. --->a big YES...just like Tubes also.
Just my opinion po.
I hope you dont mind...I posted some of my opinions as well. cheers ;D
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guys, i agree with john5479, 100%!!! :D :D :D
In my 2 cents observation:
Tube Amps
- Sounds smooth and relaxed,
- More suited for music with emphasis on vocals (old school music)
- Transient response is quite slow- makes music sound dragging especially those with emphasis on
percussion like flamenco. laurindo almeida, etc
- Clean treble but not engaging
- Limited type of music
Solid State
- Punchy (bass drum effect more realistic)
- Faster transient response (sounds more engaging)
- Treble have tendency to be harsh (but depends on the speaker system used)
- Vocals may sound comparable to tube amp when paired with a properly matched speaker system
- Will suit to different type of music.
Just my opinion po.
letor, please do not take the comments here personally as these are also opinions, just like what you've posted...
i've had a chance to own both SS and tube amps and i've stayed with tubes...anyway, please continue to post your observations in the different gears you come across...thanks! :D
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guys, i agree with john5479, 100%!!! :D :D :D
letor, please do not take the comments here personally as these are also opinions, just like what you've posted...
i've had a chance to own both SS and tube amps and i've stayed with tubes...anyway, please continue to post your observations in the different gears you come across...thanks! :D
i think this is what Letor is pertaining to Supes...
Iba kasi dating e. How can one agree 0% ???
:)
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i think this is what Letor is pertaining to Supes...
:)
agree 0% = disagree 100%
anything wrong there?
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agree 0% = disagree 100%
anything wrong there?
I believe that each and everyone of us here are entitled to agree or disagree, wether it's 0% or 100%. It's a free country.
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If I disagree (I agree 0%) with Letor's post, it does not mean he's wrong in his opinion. That's his OPINION, and I expressed disagreement on that opinion. My EXPERIENCE tells otherwise.
I like rock- progressive, industrial, metal, and to say that tubes can't do justice to these music, based ON MY EXPERIENCE, is not true. I have heard various SS gears that sound lame compared to other tube gears. SS gears always punchy? Nah, I've heard a name brand SS amp that sounds too 'bading' when playing rock music. Tubes always sound 'mataba'? Nah, there are a lot of colored tube amps, preamps, but there are also a lot of transparent tube amps, preamps.
Some forumers most likely know my biases- low-wattage single-ended triodes (I'm still trying to like PP), transparent tube preamps, high-efficiency speakers, solid-state phono stage, non-tubed CD player, and of course music from classical to heavy metal.
The opinion stated by Letor covers how many SS amps, Tube amps? What were the ancilliary equipment? Speakers, Preamp, cables, etc.?
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Sound difference between SS & tube is very subjective. We cant say tube is better than SS & vise versa. It all depends on what type of Speakers or equipment you have. Let me set an example, those Martin Logans, JM Eutophia & Genesis speakers are often paired with SS.
B&W 800 series for me sound good using MF amplifiers.
SS & Tube has it's own advantages as well as disadvantages.
SS
Halcro, MF, Blue Circle, Mark Levinson, krell etch. are expensive SS source for a good sounding amplifier. There are tubes affordable for everyone for a heavenly listening pleasure without breaking a bank. IMHO
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Sound difference between SS & tube is very subjective. We cant say tube is better than SS & vise versa.
we should not say one is better over the other because that is when subjectivity comes in but we can safely say that there is indeed a sonic difference between the two that even the uninitiated/non audiophile/newbie can hear.
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Sound difference between SS & tube is very subjective. We cant say tube is better than SS & vise versa. It all depends on what type of Speakers or equipment you have. Let me set an example, those Martin Logans, JM Eutophia & Genesis speakers are often paired with SS.
B&W 800 series for me sound good using MF amplifiers.
SS & Tube has it's own advantages as well as disadvantages.
SS
Halcro, MF, Blue Circle, Mark Levinson, krell etch. are expensive SS source for a good sounding amplifier. There are tubes affordable for everyone for a heavenly listening pleasure without breaking a bank. IMHO
just out of curiosity, have you owned these gears before or by any chance have heard these gears?? if so, then please share with us your impressions based on your own experience in order to be more of help to our fellow members...can you share with us what you've just mentioned about advantages and disadvantages?...hope you can be specific as i want to learn more about people's experiences when it comes to comparing tube and SS gears... thank you!
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If I disagree (I agree 0%) with Letor's post, it does not mean he's wrong in his opinion. That's his OPINION, and I expressed disagreement on that opinion. My EXPERIENCE tells otherwise.
I like rock- progressive, industrial, metal, and to say that tubes can't do justice to these music, based ON MY EXPERIENCE, is not true. I have heard various SS gears that sound lame compared to other tube gears. SS gears always punchy? Nah, I've heard a name brand SS amp that sounds too 'bading' when playing rock music. Tubes always sound 'mataba'? Nah, there are a lot of colored tube amps, preamps, but there are also a lot of transparent tube amps, preamps.
Some forumers most likely know my biases- low-wattage single-ended triodes (I'm still trying to like PP), transparent tube preamps, high-efficiency speakers, solid-state phono stage, non-tubed CD player, and of course music from classical to heavy metal.
The opinion stated by Letor covers how many SS amps, Tube amps? What were the ancilliary equipment? Speakers, Preamp, cables, etc.?
knowing arnoldc's biases, i only agree 100% to what he's saying...why? because i've had a chance to listen to his system do justice to rock music, and i mean rock music!...imagine using a 2-3watts amplifier playing rock? playing rock music using a 300B amp (approx. 9-10wpc)...there are even solid state amps that really "cannot" play rock music...i've had a chance to own SS amps before i got converted to tubes...it's a must that we consider associated equipment (i.e. source, cables, etc.) to have a more accurate comparison of the two...just my 2-cents :D :D :D
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Wow :o sir odyopayl,
Those Mark Levinson amp were only seen in the audio store. Hope to hear it also.
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I've heard a couple of Mark Levinson amps- No. 331, No. 336, and the monoblocks No. 33H
Coupled with Mark Levinson preamp (I believe No. 32), they are warm sounding to my ears.
The speakers were Verity Parsifal or Dynaudio 1.8 or Dynaudio 3.3
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just out of curiosity, have you owned these gears before or by any chance have heard these gears?? if so, then please share with us your impressions based on your own experience in order to be more of help to our fellow members...can you share with us what you've just mentioned about advantages and disadvantages?...hope you can be specific as i want to learn more about people's experiences when it comes to comparing tube and SS gears... thank you!
Sorry I never owned it, but just like what i've said I've heard. What I can say, I'm the one who set-up one of my boss listening area & audio eqpt(he live in Alabang 400) the speakers are B&W 805S & driven by X-150 Musical Fidelity We bought this in Singapore the time we attended Semicon Show. My observation the music is so clean & warm you may never think you are listening to a SS Amp . By the way, the source is X-Ray CD player. I've also help him to set-up his Home theater compose of straight 600 series B & W driven by Yamaha AZ9 Receiver Amp.
We're planning to upgrade his sound system to Martin Logan or Sonus to be driven by Krell power-amp. I'll ask him if he allow me to take picture of the set-up to post on this thread.
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Wow :o sir odyopayl,
Those Mark Levinson amp were only seen in the audio store. Hope to hear it also.
Yah it's true, you can attend the other site CES do know the schedule, you can experience so many expensive gears that you can only own in your dreams. (hehehe)
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we should not say one is better over the other because that is when subjectivity comes in but we can safely say that there is indeed a sonic difference between the two that even the uninitiated/non audiophile/newbie can hear.
Still subjective, there are lot of factor to consider, Genre of music, equipment matching etch. Sometimes listening to a good SS amplifier will triggered you to have one also. In terms of sound & Economy, I can say a 10K tube amp (I'll mention one, Tubong B) will sound better than a 10K SS amp (Brand new) (hope nobody will react).
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just out of curiosity, have you owned these gears before or by any chance have heard these gears?? if so, then please share with us your impressions based on your own experience in order to be more of help to our fellow members...can you share with us what you've just mentioned about advantages and disadvantages?...hope you can be specific as i want to learn more about people's experiences when it comes to comparing tube and SS gears... thank you!
Sorry I never owned it, but just like what i've said I've heard. What I can say, I'm the one who set-up one of my boss listening area(he leave in Alabang 400) the speakers are B&W 805S & driven by X-150 Musical Fidelity We bought this in Singapore the time we attended Semicon Show. My observation the music is so clean & warm you may never thing you are listening to a SS Amp . By the way, the source is X-Ray CD player. I've also help him to set-up his Home theater compose of straight 600 series B & W driven by Yamaha AZ9 Receiver Amp.
We're planning to upgrade his sound system to Martin Logan or Sonus to be driven by Krell power-amp. I'll ask him if he allow me to take picture of the set-up to post on this thread.
HUH ??? ??? ??? ???
it's OK, you've said you've heard :D :D :D
you helped him set-up his listening area?? or his audio system?? you mean lagi siyang umaalis ng Alabang 400 (he leave in Alabang 400)?? kung sa bagay madalas din naman akong umalis ng bahay :D :D :D
bro, i will really never "thing"...i was never created to be a thing, but i believe we were created to "think" :D :D :D
...well, there's a Martin Logan The Quest being sold at the marketplace, please check it out, thanks! (shameless plug) :D :D :D
di ko lang kasi ma-gets eh, please elaborate further for the benefit of everyone... :D
thanks! PEACE! :D
Pahabol:
Still subjective, there are lot of factor to consider, Genre of music, equipment matching etch. Sometimes listening to a good SS amplifier will triggered you to have one also. In terms of sound & Economy, I can say a 10K tube amp (I'll mention one, Tubong B) will sound better than a 10K SS amp (Brand new) (hope nobody will react).
gaano karaming "factor" ba yan?? bro, na-trigger na ba?? o mati-trigger pa lang?? :D :D :D
PEACE! :D :D :D
...di ko lang mapigilang mag-inquire, thanks!
may nag-react na po - AKO! :D :D :D PEACE! :D :D :D
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You're truly an idol sir arnoldc! ;D
Aside from those experience with Mark Levinson amps, you owned several tube amps i saw on other thread:
3. arnoldc - DIY 300B (JE Labs), DIY 2a3 (JE Labs), DIY 245 (my own design), DIY 807 (Gordon Rankin), DIY
Foreplay 12AU7 tubes, DIY JE Labs Pre-amp 76 + 6SN7 + 5AR4 tubes
IDOL!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
I've heard a couple of Mark Levinson amps- No. 331, No. 336, and the monoblocks No. 33H
Coupled with Mark Levinson preamp (I believe No. 32), they are warm sounding to my ears.
The speakers were Verity Parsifal or Dynaudio 1.8 or Dynaudio 3.3
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sir odyopayl,
You're next since i saw you have several tube gears you own :o
23. odyopayl - Consonance M100, Super Tono Pre-amp, Ultimate 2a3
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Would anyone owned or heard the Prologue One tube amplifier?
Saw it on the The Absolute Sound magazine, very nice looking! ;)
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eraser, PM sent, thanks! :D
OT lang :
Ahahaha!!!!!......... Jen alam ko yan PM na yan. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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HUH ??? ??? ??? ???
it's OK, you've said you've heard :D :D :D
you helped him set-up his listening area?? or his audio system?? you mean lagi siyang umaalis ng Alabang 400 (he leave in Alabang 400)?? kung sa bagay madalas din naman akong umalis ng bahay :D :D :D
bro, i will really never "thing"...i was never created to be a thing, but i believe we were created to "think" :D :D :D
...well, there's a Martin Logan The Quest being sold at the marketplace, please check it out, thanks! (shameless plug) :D :D :D
di ko lang kasi ma-gets eh, please elaborate further for the benefit of everyone... :D
thanks! PEACE! :D
Pahabol:
gaano karaming "factor" ba yan?? bro, na-trigger na ba?? o mati-trigger pa lang?? :D :D :D
PEACE! :D :D :D
...di ko lang mapigilang mag-inquire, thanks!
may nag-react na po - AKO! :D :D :D PEACE! :D :D :D
Sorry po, tao lang
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sir odyopayl,
You're next since i saw you have several tube gears you own :o
23. odyopayl - Consonance M100, Super Tono Pre-amp, Ultimate 2a3
Brod, I never owned an ultimate 2a3 but I had experienced it, it's very good (courtesy of member). Anyway, thru this I'm building my own JE labs 300B. I'll post my review once done.
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just out of curiosity, have you owned these gears before or by any chance have heard these gears?? if so, then please share with us your impressions based on your own experience in order to be more of help to our fellow members...can you share with us what you've just mentioned about advantages and disadvantages?...hope you can be specific as i want to learn more about people's experiences when it comes to comparing tube and SS gears... thank you!
babalikan ko lang po, hope you can "share your experience" with the gears you've mentioned to help our fellow members...please also highlight the associated equipment like speakers, cables, software, etc...
salamat po! :D :D :D
PS: Good luck on your JE Labs 300B project!! hope you got a circuit drawing - schematic diagram already :D :D :D
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@odyopayl, don't make the 6SN7->300B version. make the DX version- 76-6SN7-300B. if you have trouble with 76, I will offer you a pair of 56 (different heater voltage) at a friendly price. I may also have a pair of 76 I can let go (pero mas mahal acquisition price ko at P1,500 each from master Rene Rivo)
@eraser, outdated na yang post ko sorry about that. I now have three physical amps (a) RCA 2A3 + RCA redbase 5691 driver with MagneQuest DS-025 OPT, (b) UX-245 + 5842(417A) driver with Tamura F-475 OPT, and (c) my tri-amp- 10Y (1W), UX-250 (3W), 300B (6W) + 5842(417A) driver on a single chassis with Hammond 1628 OPT and switchable operation. I also have a new Western Electric preamp that is so transparent, you either love it or hate it. ;D
I don't have a pretty speaker to talk about... it's DIY Altec 406-8Y (10") with Oxford mid-horn and Fostex FT-17H tweeter using Oil caps and Auricaps for crossover. The woofer is mounted on an Altec 614 cabinet (DIY ni handyman) and the rest are sitting on top. The overall sensitivity is estimated to be 95dB. All wiring is Audience hookup wire and speaker cable is DIY made also from Audience hookup wire.
@superman, what you heard before is nothing compared to this setup :)
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sir odyopayl,
You're next since i saw you have several tube gears you own :o
23. odyopayl - Consonance M100, Super Tono Pre-amp, Ultimate 2a3
naguguluhan na ako. >:( ;D
RB-3 & M-99+ SOLD!
Consonance m100 ba o Consonance m99+ nga ba
BTW, odyopayl by any chance would you be selling the "Ultimate 2a3" also. :)
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Ganun ba sir, no problem, i just thought those listed gears on other thread is a legitimate owner. How about sir arnoldc?
Anyway, IDOL ko pa rin kayong dalawa! ;D
Brod, I never owned an ultimate 2a3 but I had experienced it, it's very good (courtesy of member). Anyway, thru this I'm building my own JE labs 300B. I'll post my review once done.
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@odyopayl, don't make the 6SN7->300B version. make the DX version- 76-6SN7-300B. if you have trouble with 76, I will offer you a pair of 56 (different heater voltage) at a friendly price. I may also have a pair of 76 I can let go (pero mas mahal acquisition price ko at P1,500 each from master Rene Rivo)
@eraser, outdated na yang post ko sorry about that. I now have three physical amps (a) RCA 2A3 + RCA redbase 5691 driver with MagneQuest DS-025 OPT, (b) UX-245 + 5842(417A) driver with Tamura F-475 OPT, and (c) my tri-amp- 10Y (1W), UX-250 (3W), 300B (6W) + 5842(417A) driver on a single chassis with Hammond 1628 OPT and switchable operation. I also have a new Western Electric preamp that is so transparent, you either love it or hate it. ;D
I don't have a pretty speaker to talk about... it's DIY Altec 406-8Y (10") with Oxford mid-horn and Fostex FT-17H tweeter using Oil caps and Auricaps for crossover. The woofer is mounted on an Altec 614 cabinet (DIY ni handyman) and the rest are sitting on top. The overall sensitivity is estimated to be 95dB. All wiring is Audience hookup wire and speaker cable is DIY made also from Audience hookup wire.
@superman, what you heard before is nothing compared to this setup :)
it's time to visit you again, prof :D
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sir arnoldc,
IDOL ka talaga!
@odyopayl, don't make the 6SN7->300B version. make the DX version- 76-6SN7-300B. if you have trouble with 76, I will offer you a pair of 56 (different heater voltage) at a friendly price. I may also have a pair of 76 I can let go (pero mas mahal acquisition price ko at P1,500 each from master Rene Rivo)
@eraser, outdated na yang post ko sorry about that. I now have three physical amps (a) RCA 2A3 + RCA redbase 5691 driver with MagneQuest DS-025 OPT, (b) UX-245 + 5842(417A) driver with Tamura F-475 OPT, and (c) my tri-amp- 10Y (1W), UX-250 (3W), 300B (6W) + 5842(417A) driver on a single chassis with Hammond 1628 OPT and switchable operation. I also have a new Western Electric preamp that is so transparent, you either love it or hate it. ;D
I don't have a pretty speaker to talk about... it's DIY Altec 406-8Y (10") with Oxford mid-horn and Fostex FT-17H tweeter using Oil caps and Auricaps for crossover. The woofer is mounted on an Altec 614 cabinet (DIY ni handyman) and the rest are sitting on top. The overall sensitivity is estimated to be 95dB. All wiring is Audience hookup wire and speaker cable is DIY made also from Audience hookup wire.
@superman, what you heard before is nothing compared to this setup :)
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sa dami ng nabanggit na gears pati ako naguguluhan na din. ;D
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OT: jojod bentahan mo na lang ako ng OPA2134PA :D
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@odyopayl, don't make the 6SN7->300B version. make the DX version- 76-6SN7-300B. if you have trouble with 76, I will offer you a pair of 56 (different heater voltage) at a friendly price. I may also have a pair of 76 I can let go (pero mas mahal acquisition price ko at P1,500 each from master Rene Rivo)
Sir Arnold, I'm on the chassis level, once I have finished I'll let you know. Thanks for the advise. You are truly Tube Guru!
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Hi eraser,
The 2A3 tube amp is mine! ;D It is based on JELabs circuit!
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OT: jojod bentahan mo na lang ako ng OPA2134PA :D
sure, PM me lang or txt me. :D
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agree 0% = disagree 100%
anything wrong there?
Yes, I think there is something wrong, Iba kasi ang dating eh. Making an ironic statement refering to someone or his work is a sarcastic gesture or mockery. It also shows insincerity. Just like saying to someone "ang ganda mo!" when actually you mean the opposite. :'( :o ;D
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sir s2kov,
thanks syo pala yung ultimate 2A3 :)
so, yung Consonance M100 at Super Tono Preamp yung kay sir odyopayl.
mga IDOL kakainggit kayo ;D
Hi eraser,
The 2A3 tube amp is mine! ;D It is based on JELabs circuit!
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This thread risks reviving the SS versus Tube debates.
It shouldn't. For me, tubes and SS amps fulfill different listening objectives. One aims to meet high-fidelity objectives of transparency and neutrality. The other aims for euphony or what is pleasant to the ears. Whichever you want, this audiophilic hobby can accommodate both.
The difference lies in the operation of these devices. But that often takes the backseat over the listening pleasures you derive from either devices and the objective you want accomplished.
Tubes provide a more relaxed, smoother, fuller-bodied and airer listening experience. That's because tube sounds are what many pundits call COLORED. They have rich second order harmonic distortions that can make any recorded signal sound fuller, warmer and more present. Hence, tubes ADD something to the recorded material. The addition makes them Euphonic, or pleasant to the ears - something that can be very appealing in comparison with SS amps. In addition, tubes can be driven hard at full volume and distort more forgivingly. Thus, you don't get the grating harshness found in SS which at loud volumes tend to produce third and higher odd-order harmonic distortions that are unpleasant to the ears. There's lesser incidence of listening fatigue with tubes.
And precisely because of the tube's even-ordered harmonic coloration, they tend to sound louder than an SS amp of the same wattage. Harmonic distortions have a way of making the signal fatter or louder as those harmonics add up to increase the amplitude of the fundamental frequencies. Hence, a 2-watt single ended triode driven at full volume can fill a typical room more pleasantly than a similar 2-watt SS amp that would start to dish out unpleasantries at that level. ;D
Tubes, especially SETs (Single-Ended Triode), benefit a lot from and are often mated with highly efficient speakers hovering in the 94db ++ range. Hence, it should not be surprising that a 2-watt SET driving such a 94db speaker set can sound just as powerful or more powerful than a 20watt SS amp driving an 86db speaker set.
OTH, SS designs have almost reached the peak of their potentials to give the listener virtually non-existent harmonic and non-harmonic distortion products at comfortable or even the loudest volume levels for the more expensive ones. They serve the high fidelity objective of neutrally passing the recorded signals without adding to or subtracting from them, thus, revealing the recorded material with the highest transparency. They have less coloration than tubes.
SS desgns take advantage of their ability to deliver more current/power than tube designs can at commercial prices. Audiophiles will never need all that 300watts per channel RMS in a typical room from a Bryston or Aragon SS amps. But the distortions at even half such a power guarantees that the amp would be operating at its linear operating range with almost no form of harmonic and non-harmonic distortion to speak of, thus ensuring the recorded signal to pass through untouched, so to speak. In short, SS amps behave more like a straight wire with gain - the very purpose of hi-fi gears.
Admittedly, SET Tube amps have simpler circuits - its simpler topography lends themselves to the straight-wire-with-gain concept. But for most audiophiles, the fact that they color the sound discounts such a description. (There are SETs that do have less coloration. They are mostly very expensive.)
The euphony of SETs are often lost when you start using the more powerful push-pull tube amps. So if you want more power, SS is the way to go. But if you want euphonic pleasantries, SET is the way to go. Just make sure you have very efficient speakers so you can have some decent muscle when you feel like impressing the neighbors. ;D
If you want power, SS is it. IF you want euphonic sounds, SET is it. If you want to hear the recorded material in all its ugliness or beauty, a good SS amp will reveal them all with nothing added. If you want any recording to sound more euphonic than how it was recorded, SET is the way to go. Personally, if I have to go tubes, I'd go SET, not push-pull. Push-pull tubes deliver more power. But if I need power I'd go SS. Just my thoughts.
This might be an old post but I learned more from it than the weeks of web trolling I did in preparation for my initial foray into tube amps. :)
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This might be an old post but I learned more from it than the weeks of web trolling I did in preparation for my initial foray into tube amps. :)
Any change of direction after reading the post?
Still heading towards tube? :)
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i am a tubeneck, but not because of the the reasons that non-diy'ers of tube amps espouse....
btw, if you have toddlers running around the house, then better not go into tubes...
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great read / reference. ;D
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Any change of direction after reading the post?
Still heading towards tube? :)
@pchin, now that you have tasted tubes, are you going tubes in future?
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great read / reference. ;D
Thanks sir. I still remember your stash of amps. a solidstate, hybrid and a powerful kt88. I fell in love with tubes the moment I heard your set-up. Sana I could listen to it again. Pagtanda ko, magkaroon din ako ng powerful tube amp. hehehe.
Para hindi OT. For the few tube amps that ive auditioned, they are not linear nor sonically perfect, in fact, most doesn't exhibit the snap and sparkles but the midrange, oh boy, sarap pakingan. If you listen to tubes, the music draws you in. If you listen to solidstate, you need to draw yourself into the music to appreciate. Ofcourse, maraming ifs and buts pero generally, that's how I view the sound of tubes.
Paeng
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get both SS and tubes and have the best of both worlds....
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get both SS and tubes and have the best of both worlds....
What combination sir would you recommend? Tube Pre-Amp + SS AMP or SS Pre-amp + Tube Amp?
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you can try it both ways, but the tube preamp to ss power amp seems more common,
i do not see why an ss preamp and a tube power amp will not work...
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you can try it both ways, but the tube preamp to ss power amp seems more common,
i do not see why an ss preamp and a tube power amp will not work...
That will work naman provided level matched sila. Most SET power amps kasi require higher voltage input. Mababa lang ang output voltage ng ss preamp.
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That will work naman provided level matched sila. Most SET power amps kasi require higher voltage input. Mababa lang ang output voltage ng ss preamp.
How about Tube Pre-Amp and SS Power Amp? Anything that needs to be considered with regards to matching?
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How about Tube Pre-Amp and SS Power Amp? Anything that needs to be considered with regards to matching?
I've tried this configuration pero bi-amp mode ako dati. Tube preamp, SET poweramp for horns, SS poweramp for woofers. Okay naman. Though AFAIK, SS poweramp are current hungry ata.
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I've tried this configuration pero bi-amp mode ako dati. Tube preamp, SET poweramp for horns, SS poweramp for woofers. Okay naman. Though AFAIK, SS poweramp are current hungry ata.
Tukayo, current devices hindi current hungry. :-*
Para lang malinaw sa mga newbie na nagbabasa. ;)
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Tukayo, current devices hindi current hungry. :-*
Para lang malinaw sa mga newbie na nagbabasa. ;)
Ah. You are correct. Thank you very much for correcting me tukayo. :D
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Ah. You are correct. Thank you very much for correcting me tukayo. :D
You are welcome tukayo... ;D ;D ;D
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That will work naman provided level matched sila. Most SET power amps kasi require higher voltage input. Mababa lang ang output voltage ng ss preamp.
line levels are 1.5 volts typical, most tube and ss preamps can do more than this...
so in most cases pasok sila...it is just a matter of synergy, if they will match well...
600 ohm output impedance for ss is peanuts, but tubes can also do this.....
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line levels are 1.5 volts typical, most tube and ss preamps can do more than this...
so in most cases pasok sila...it is just a matter of synergy, if they will match well...
600 ohm output impedance for ss is peanuts, but tubes can also do this.....
Master Tony, what I meant was, when you use ss preamp over SET poweramp, madalas, walang gaanong gain yun system because most SET poweramps require high voltage input of at least 5v. AFAIK, seldom do I see a ss preamp capable of making a 5v output.
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I've tried this configuration pero bi-amp mode ako dati. Tube preamp, SET poweramp for horns, SS poweramp for woofers. Okay naman. Though AFAIK, SS poweramp are current hungry ata.
to give you an idea, my 5894 SET consumes 90watts for an output of a mere 5 watts per channel
and it is constant regardless of whether you are playing music or not... the 2A3 will be about the same..
now my parallel EL34 SET consumes 180 watts pf power for an ouput of mere 10 watts per channel...
SS power amps otoh can idle at 12 to 24 watts, power increases as you increase volume levels,
and based on our recent FTC testing of a 1000 watter Crown Clone amp, while at full power,
the amp draws more than 1000 watts, when listening to music, at a power draw of about 200 watts,
hindi na kami magkaintindihan sa lakas ng SPL...
so herein lies the differences between tube ClassA and SS ClassAB power amps...
BTW, a tube ClassAB power amp will behave almost the same as a SS ClassAB power amp,
except that you will have to add the filament power, in a typical EL34 power amp, you will add
something like 50 watts more, for a total idle power of about 140 watts....
So that here you will see that my parallel EL34 SET idles at 180 watts for 10 watts per channel,
my Push pull EL34 draws around 140 watts for a power output of 35 watts per channel...
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Master Tony, what I meant was, when you use ss preamp over SET poweramp, madalas, walang gaanong gain yun system because most SET poweramps require high voltage input of at least 5v. AFAIK, seldom do I see a ss preamp capable of making a 5v output.
that is an easy one to address.....trust me...;)
tbh, this is the first time for me to hear about the 5 volt input sensitivity...
in my designs i target 1 volt as input sensitivity...
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that is an easy one to address.....trust me...;)
tbh, this is the first time for me to hear about the 5 volt input sensitivity...
in my designs i target 1 volt as input sensitivity...
I trust you and I know you have already addressed this issue in your designs. ;D Ikaw pa! What I'm actually referring to are the aftermarket tube amps.
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Question po: if preamps would output 1-2V, do you still need one considering new players cater the same gain level? Parang hindi na practical.
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I trust you and I know you have already addressed this issue in your designs. ;D Ikaw pa! What I'm actually referring to are the aftermarket tube amps.
see how easy it is to get a clear picture when figures are thrown in....;)
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Question po: if preamps would output 1-2V, do you still need one considering new players cater the same gain level? Parang hindi na practical.
depends on your personal preference, theoretically there is no need...
but there are those who like pre-amps in their system for a variety of reasons...
IOW, it is a personal thing.....;)
sa welcome rotonda, merong big big audiophile, one time i brought a preamp for him to try,
what he did was to put the preamp in series with with his main preamp....he liked my preamp....;)
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Question po: if preamps would output 1-2V, do you still need one considering new players cater the same gain level? Parang hindi na practical.
Well, according to master Tony, since he designed his power amp sa 1 volt input, for level matching, baka hindi na kailangan ng pre amp sa amp niya. But you would still need a preamp to control the input gain and source selection. Though nasubukan ko din naman ang tube power amp without preamp, it's doable naman if you would add a potentiometer sa input, or kung digital source, sa digital side ka mag adjust ng volume.
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Question po: if preamps would output 1-2V, do you still need one considering new players cater the same gain level?
Don't forget about impedance matching. Gain level isn't the only thing that matters.
Just because an amp's input section was redesigned to allow lower input levels, say 0.707V doesn't mean it can accept any source input level above 1V. Impedance, distortion, noise and all that are still in play. As with anything in life, changing that has consequences, failure to address that can lead to problems. Gain structuring is something most people, even the technical ones do not understand nor have an idea of what it is. Designers and manufacturers adhere to these so that their products can be paired, to a sincere level, with any known sources out in the market.
For commercial/home use, it is normal to see input/output levels between 0.5V up to 5V peak-to-peak, for pro use, 5V is a standard level without signal clipping.
Parang hindi na practical.
That's why there are numbers and conventions.
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http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr98/articles/gainstructure.html