PinoyDVD: The Pinoy Digital Video & Devices Community
Home Theater => Sources => NMTs => Topic started by: iiinas on Feb 28, 2010 at 09:20 PM
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PDVD Media Player Blind Test Shoot-Out!
by Streetsmart
The blind test involved the pq of 5 media players:
The Players
1. WDTV (1st generation version)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4394220741_52a74e5e82_o.jpg)
2. Popcorn C200
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2783/4394987756_6a7ea75d05.jpg)
3. eGreat 31B
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2695/4394220799_3407871189.jpg)
4. Mede8er
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2734/4394220847_36ebe4723f_o.jpg)
5. Xtreamer
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4041/4394220927_238332f176.jpg)
The Popcorn and the Mede8er were kindly provided by our good friend @Gren from eHome.
We figured that this was already a pretty good representation of the players in the market.
We tried our best to make the blind test as objective and scientific as possible. We had 5 hard drives connected to the 5 players. The players were then connected to an HDMI switcher (c/o @pchin, thanks!) and then output to the Denon AVR and then the projector.
The Scenes
We selected "27 Dresses" as the test movie because it has a lot of scenes with natural lighting, along with greenery, dark scenes and fast motion. The movie was 720p/24 and the players upscaled this to 1080p/24. No external video processing was used so the raw data was sent to the projector.
The first major problem we had was that every now and then, the eGreat would just die by itself. After a long time, we realized that the remote of the Mede8er was somehow affecting the eGreat so we separated the eGreat from the other players and that solved the problem.
The way we did the test was that we determined the time of the scene to be tested (there were 3 different scenes, with a variety of video challenges -- natural light, dark scenes, motion, buildings, greenery). We then decided on the sequence of the players and cued the players to all play at the same time, but with a 2 minute difference between players, and then we paused the players.
We ran the first player and then called the guys in from outside the room. The first player had a 1 minute gap before the actual start of the scene. When the scene started, we put the 4 other players on "play".
The big problem was that for whatever reason, whenever we put the Mede8er on pause, it would not start properly. After a while, we decided that the only way to include the Mede8er in the test would be to have it as the first player for all 3 scenes. Otherwise, we randomly mixed the sequence of the players. Only the Mede8er was fixed as always the first player.
The Criteria:
1. Sharpness
2. Detail
3. Motion stutter
4. Color accuracy
5. Color saturation
6. Edge enhancement
There was a brief lecture on each of the criteria before the start of the test. People left the room, we set up the scene and then brought the people back in. This was repeated for each of the 3 scenes.
PDVD Members / Participants:
1. Jazzy Jake
2. Blackie
3. Anchit
4. Jay2
5. Stickfighter
6. JohnE.
7. Esi
8. Alvinh
9. Gunblade977
10. Juancho
11. Nogie
12. Gaol
13. markcrenz
14. Mike C
15. Dts-HD 3D
16. Setup
17. Pchin
Aside from these guys, the others in the EB were myself, iiinas, bass_nut (late dumating) and Zedric (also late).
The Results:
The scoring was 1-5, with 5 being the best. The results were quite surprising. The average scores were as follows:
1. WDTV (the 1st generation!) -- 4.40
2. Xtreamer -- 4.37
3. eGreat 31b -- 4.29
4. Popcorn Hour C200 -- 4.26
5. Mede8er 4.06
After the blind test, we explained that the Mede8er was always the first player and many people commented that the first player has a disadvantage because people come from outside (bright place) and come into the theater (dark place) so your eyes take time to adjust.
I think this may be the main reason why the Mede8er placed poorly. Just today, Alvinthx2 and myself reviewed the Mede8er vs. the Xtreamer with the same scenes and frankly, we could hardly tell the difference.
In fact, most people had the same comment. In a blind test, it was nearly impossible to tell the difference in quality between players.
My personal conclusion (Streetsmart):
The current crop of media players have nearly equal pq. Their main differences will be in their menu, boot-up speed, stability, navigation, etc. Based on this, the 1st gen WDTV (which won the blind test) actually sucks, particularly for navigation but insofar as pq is concerned, I think that all media players are virtually equal in quality.
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just to add my personal observations during the setting up of the blind test:
although no actual measurements were taken, i observed that the mede8er loads the fastest followed by xtreamer, the wdtv and the popcorn c-200 are almost the same while the e-great was the slowest of all.
in terms of gui, i personally liked the c-200's gui. very classy almost like the gui of mainstream appliances like panasonic and sony. the mede8er was 2nd for me then the egreat. the xtreamer is 4th while the wdtv is the last.
for the remote control. the c-200's remote is the only backlit of all the remotes. but i think in terms of button placement the egreat's still is better. the xtreamer and the mede8er for me is almost the same in function. the wdtv's remote for me is the lousiest of all. very small. lack a lot of the needed functions. we actually had a hard time during set up because it does not have a time seek function.
in terms of built quality: it is obvious that the c-200 get it here. its made of aluminum, with blue lcd screen, its actually a life saver for us, since we use the display to time the scenes. the second for me would be the mede8er. it has buttons on the player itself so you wont be solely relying on the remote. although there is no lcd on the unit. the third for me is the egreat, still looks good even if its considered an old unit. the 4th for me is the wdtv. its a very small unit with piano finish plastic looks great with wd's passport or my book external hdds. the cheapest build quality for me is the xtreamer (i own one), its really plasticky in looks. no buttons, only the led power light. i think spending another php850 would go a long way by adding the aluminum side winder.
sorry but we never really tested the players' other features like networking (if available) and the other stuff. so we cant really give a fair comment on those. in terms of pricing, i think you guys would know already.
just to put a little perspective on the test. here are some shots of the equipments and venue where the test was conducted.
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4938/sonypj.jpg)
new sony bravia projector
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2745/4142736103_63915f382e.jpg)
130" screen
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just to add my personal observations during the setting up of the blind test:
although no actual measurements were taken, i observed that the mede8er loads the fastest followed by xtreamer, the wdtv and the popcorn c-200 are almost the same while the e-great was the slowest of all.
in terms of gui, i personally liked the c-200's gui. very classy almost like the gui of mainstream appliances like panasonic and sony. the mede8er was 2nd for me then the egreat. the xtreamer is 4th while the wdtv is the last.
for the remote control. the c-200's remote is the only backlit of all the remotes. but i think in terms of button placement the egreat's still is better. the xtreamer and the mede8er for me is almost the same in function. the wdtv's remote for me is the lousiest of all. very small. lack a lot of the needed functions. we actually had a hard time during set up because it does not have a time seek function.
in terms of built quality: it is obvious that the c-200 get it here. its made of aluminum, with blue lcd screen, its actually a life saver for us, since we use the display to time the scenes. the second for me would be the mede8er. it has buttons on the player itself so you wont be solely relying on the remote. although there is no lcd on the unit. the third for me is the egreat, still looks good even if its considered an old unit. the 4th for me is the wdtv. its a very small unit with piano finish plastic looks great with wd's passport or my book external hdds. the cheapest build quality for me is the xtreamer (i own one), its really plasticky in looks. no buttons, only the led power light. i think spending another php850 would go a long way by adding the aluminum side winder.
sorry but we never really tested the players' other features like networking (if available) and the other stuff. so we cant really give a fair comment on those. in terms of pricing, i think you guys would know already.
+1,
if its a matter of preference, the result may not be of huge significance for example, just before one of the attendees left, he mentioned that while he felt there is one that has better PQ among the NMTs tested, deciding factor for him would be the size of the NMT considering he uses hugely built gears, i even joked that he either get the C200 or two mede8er laid side by side to make it look big ;D.
my NMT is not included in those tested but was surprised to see that the GUI, features, loading time and PQ is almost the same if not the same as the mede8ter but around 2K cheaper ;D
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Well as long as you use HDMI connection, I wouldn't expect any significant difference in PQ between any two media players. Unless digital processing (noise reduction, etc.) come into play, the raw image should be essentially the same after it's decoded properly. Any additional image enhancement is where the DSP of the display (LCD TV, projector, etc) comes in.
PQ has never been a concern for me when choosing a media player. It's usually the features, UI, speed, etc.
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i have a few days to make a decision ...
mede8er vs. xtreamer (vs. xtreamer pro)
pareho ba chip model nitong dalawa? or newer ang mede8er?
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i have a few days to make a decision ...
mede8er vs. xtreamer
pareho ba chip model nitong dalawa? or newer ang mede8er?
basically, panalo ang mede8r sa xtreamer in terms of 3.5" internal HD. question ko lang po sa mga may xtreamer NAS. diba 3.5" HD's din yun? puwede ba yun gamitin as external HD through USB? how much yun NAS?
both uses realtek chips, but not the same realtek chips. the mede8er uses the more common one being use by the other media players.
in my case, the nas (etrayz) is connected to my router, and the xtreamer uses wifi to get the contents out of the nas. its playing 720p contents without stuttering. although i think it might encounter problems with 1080p content. once the nas is configured, and you set-up the xtreamer's wifi connections. the xtreamer readily recognizes the nas and you are free to interact with it.
have not tried connecting the nas to the xtreamer through usb though. although i have connected an external to the nas and the xtreamer also sees its contents through wifi when i connect to the nas.
let's see... 3 wd mybook essential = 14.7k-15.3k; etrayz (nas) + two 1.5tb wd greens = 16.5k - 17.1k
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mahal pala grand total, ayoko kasi mag exceed ng 8-9k.
may sata connection ba ang xtreamer like the egreat 34?
if yes,
meron bang some sort of hard drive casing na sata ang connection?
sayang kasi i have a few internal HD's, ayaw basahin ng egreat ko yung external casing connections (pero sa PC ok naman)
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Well as long as you use HDMI connection, I wouldn't expect any significant difference in PQ between any two media players. Unless digital processing (noise reduction, etc.) come into play, the raw image should be essentially the same after it's decoded properly. Any additional image enhancement is where the DSP of the display (LCD TV, projector, etc) comes in.
PQ has never been a concern for me when choosing a media player. It's usually the features, UI, speed, etc.
yes, you are right, but unless we really did it, there will always be question regarding this. and i think the blind test more or less made the question moot.
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mahal pala grand total, ayoko kasi mag exceed ng 8-9k.
may sata connection ba ang xtreamer like the egreat 34?
if yes,
meron bang some sort of hard drive casing na sata ang connection?
sayang kasi i have a few internal HD's, ayaw basahin ng egreat ko yung external casing connections (pero sa PC ok naman)
xtreamer pro will have esata (is this the same as sata?) connection. ;)
its a hard decision to make. but if i were you i would wait for its release. i got the xtreamer already when the model was announced. if ever i would get the pro too.
the pro has 2 bays for 3.5" hdds. so in theory it can have 4tb just on the player itself.
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xtreamer pro will have esata (is this the same as sata?) connection. ;)
its a hard decision to make. but if i were you i would wait for its release. i got the xtreamer already when the model was announced. if ever i would get the pro too.
the pro has 2 bays for 3.5" hdds. so in theory it can have 4tb just on the player itself.
iba yata ang ESATA and SATA ng egreat
the SATA is the same sa desktop connection inside the PC casing (pero napunta lang sa labas)
ESATA is for external talaga.
yan ang mahirap ... waiting.
parang i want to choose between the current xtreamer or mede8er.
btw, anong ibig sabihin the mede8er uses the more common chipset, aling chipset is theoretically better?
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xtreamer pro will have esata (is this the same as sata?) connection. ;)
its a hard decision to make. but if i were you i would wait for its release. i got the xtreamer already when the model was announced. if ever i would get the pro too.
the pro has 2 bays for 3.5" hdds. so in theory it can have 4tb just on the player itself.
mede8er, egreat r1, cinematube, hdpro all uses the realtek 1073 chip, the xtreamer uses the realtek 1283 chip. in theory it should be the xtreamer chip.
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thanks! esep esep.
tanong ko rin si mark kung anong bibilhin niya :)
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Thanks for starting this thread Kagawad!
Brother Alvinh brought up a good point when we tested scenes just coming into the room. Being that it was bright (daylight) just before we stepped in, it took some time for our eyes to adjust to scenes being played. Apart from scene 1, player 1 and player 2 (just before the cab ride) was quite hard to tell differences in scene 2 (sisters walking to the boathouse) and scene 3 (benny and the jets).
Cheers ;)
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Thanks for starting this thread Kagawad!
Brother Alvinh brought up a good point when we tested scenes just coming into the room. Being that it was bright (daylight) just before we stepped in, it took some time for our eyes to adjust to scenes being played. Apart from scene 1, player 1 and player 2 (just before the cab ride) was quite hard to tell differences in scene 2 (sisters walking to the boathouse) and scene 3 (benny and the jets).
Cheers ;)
and during the eye adjustment stage our perception of color changes as well. this skewed the ratings against the mede8er. however the 8% diff between the highest and lowest scores is virtually insignificant. sa features na lang talaga magkakatalo.
sa looks winner ang c200 for me. aside from the lcd display and front controls, its width nicely complements other a/v equipment.
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Just curious why you used a 720p content?
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Just curious why you used a 720p content?
wholesome kasi yung 720p content.
kamusta ang detail?
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh140/jakedavid_2004/_MG_0510.jpg)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh140/jakedavid_2004/_MG_0514.jpg)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh140/jakedavid_2004/_MG_0512.jpg)
yung 1080p content mas educational. ;D
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wala bang screenshots nung educational 1080p content? para matuto rin other members how to spot edge enhancement at the center! ;D
congrats nga pala kina sirs blackie & dts_hd3d for winning the bet! berjer! berjer!
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wala bang screenshots nung educational 1080p content? para matuto rin other members how to spot edge enhancement at the center! ;D
congrats nga pala kina sirs blackie & dts_hd3d for winning the bet! berjer! berjer!
Onga naman, for purely educational purposes, maganda sanang may screenshot! ;D
Dapat pala di ko binago yung bet ko huhuhu ;D
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Just curious why you used a 720p content?
not sure. i will ask sir mark.
but my guess is, we chose 27 dresses the movie for the scenes but we only have the 720p copy of the movie.
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Onga naman, for purely educational purposes, maganda sanang may screenshot! ;D
Dapat pala di ko binago yung bet ko huhuhu ;D
Hi Gaol,
Nice meeting you during the EB. The choice of the Extremer was pure luck. I remember Sir Eric (bitstream) demoing it to us during the last EB at Sir Mark's. Was not too familiar with the other tanks and so decided with the Extreamer. I'm sure many will agree that there were just some scenes, in the bar-singing on top of the bar-dark scene in the car, and finally that daytime scene, where it was all but too hard to spot the difference ;D
Cheers :D
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Hi Gaol,
Nice meeting you during the EB. The choice of the Extremer was pure luck. I remember Sir Eric (bitstream) demoing it to us during the last EB at Sir Mark's. Was not too familiar with the other tanks and so decided with the Extreamer. I'm sure many will agree that there were just some scenes, in the bar-singing on top of the bar-dark scene in the car, and finally that daytime scene, where it was all but too hard to spot the difference ;D
Cheers :D
Hi Blackie, nice meeting you too.
Yup I know, with the scores that close, any player could have come out on top. I chose WDTV in the beginning only because no one else did (and I thought it was the Live) hehe All in all it was fun! ;D
Cheers!
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Just curious why you used a 720p content?
2 reasons:
1) I thought it would be a good way to show how smoothly the player is able to upscale 720p/24 to 1080p/24.
2) I had a very hard time looking for movies with a lot of natural light, pure colors, with both bright and dark scenes, colors not purposely made greenish or reddish, sharp, etc. "27 Dresses" was one of the very few movies that met this criterion and it was 720p. I would say that a similar movie would be "The Devil Wears Prada."
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Can we see the breakdown of the ratings based on the criteria? Maybe we can come up with a decision based on what is really important to to the user. Thanks
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The Results:
The scoring was 1-5, with 5 being the best. The results were quite surprising. The average scores were as follows:
1. WDTV (the 1st generation!) -- 4.40
2. Xtreamer -- 4.37
3. eGreat 31b -- 4.29
4. Popcorn Hour C200 -- 4.26
5. Mede8er 4.06
Thanks for this thread Sir Mark... ;)
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Can we see the breakdown of the ratings based on the criteria? Maybe we can come up with a decision based on what is really important to to the user. Thanks
This is a good idea, pero medyo tedious. Give me a couple of days and I will produce the cross-tabulated results.
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This is a good idea, pero medyo tedious. Give me a couple of days and I will produce the cross-tabulated results.
I'm looking forward to this.
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This is a good idea, pero medyo tedious. Give me a couple of days and I will produce the cross-tabulated results.
or pwede rin the rankings for each criteria (if this is easier), so that we can see which is best as far sharpness, detail, color accuracy, etc. ...
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Can we see the breakdown of the ratings based on the criteria? Maybe we can come up with a decision based on what is really important to to the user. Thanks
or pwede rin the rankings for each criteria (if this is easier), so that we can see which is best as far sharpness, detail, color accuracy, etc. ...
@gaol, I thought that's exactly what @tigkal was referring to. Rank each player according to each criterion.
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@gaol, I thought that's exactly what @tigkal was referring to. Rank each player according to each criterion.
Ah ok, ayus yan ... :)
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my bad ... i was not able to attend this event ... good to note however that quality is almost the same across the platforms
this means that it would be down to features, stability, support, hardware build, and of course the budget when choosing the right NMT
this actually validates my observation on the three platforms that i owned (PCH A100, TVIX M6500, and Xtreamer) ... i cannot see any difference in the quality ... picture quality can be adjusted to reach the same optimum level (by my own standards) on each platform - i'm only using InTune HD software and a pair blue screen filters to manually make the calibration of my TV for each player
there's significant difference however in sound quality when playing the full BD-rips with TrueHD and DTS-HD ... the Xtreamer does not pass through the HD audio so I'm limited to DTS ... when Playing the Sony BD Demo (which contains DTS, DTS-HD and TrueHD), the surround sound is more distinct on the TVIX since it can pass the HD audio signals to the AVR
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there's significant difference however in sound quality when playing the full BD-rips with TrueHD and DTS-HD ... the Xtreamer does not pass through the HD audio so I'm limited to DTS ... when Playing the Sony BD Demo (which contains DTS, DTS-HD and TrueHD), the surround sound is more distinct on the TVIX since it can pass the HD audio signals to the AVR
Interesting observation. It would have been nice to demo this.
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it would have also been better if you could compare which player can play up to 1080p files flawlessly without stuttering so that you'll be able to know the capability of each players plus the other features ;)
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Hi guys, Sayang, I did'nt know about this EB, I should have come and bring my HDX1000, at the same time I'll get a chance to meet you guys.
@sir iiinas, when will be the next E.B.?
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mahal pala grand total, ayoko kasi mag exceed ng 8-9k.
may sata connection ba ang xtreamer like the egreat 34?
if yes,
meron bang some sort of hard drive casing na sata ang connection?
sayang kasi i have a few internal HD's, ayaw basahin ng egreat ko yung external casing connections (pero sa PC ok naman)
donate mo na lang sa akin kase ako walang internal hd ;D ;D ;D sorry OT ;D ;D
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dapat yata may part 2 EB NMT shootout dami pa pala magagandang NMT out there
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Sana ng may Part2 EB
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it would have also been better if you could compare which player can play up to 1080p files flawlessly without stuttering so that you'll be able to know the capability of each players plus the other features ;)
Hi Eric,
The blind test was limited to testing for PQ I believe for logistical reasons. Maybe next EB, this can be the subject of the testing. :)
Based on my personal observations with the HD Pro, Xtreamer, WDTV Live and A200, I believe the current generation of realtek and sigma players can handle most 1080p files with ease, even the high bit rate files-as long the files are accessed via USB or internal drives. Via LAN, that's a different matter as I've encountered some stuttering with some of the players above with a number of my 1080p files. (But then my network is not optimized, so this can also be a major factor.) Moreso, if wireless streaming.
Cheers! ;D
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...Via LAN, that's a different matter as I've encountered some stuttering with some of the players above with a number of my 1080p files. Moreso, if wireless streaming. (But then my network is not optimized, so this can also be a major factor.)
You should invite Sci-fi Fan so he can demo/prove his wireless 1080p streaming set-up.
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You should invite Sci-fi Fan so he can demo/prove his wireless 1080p streaming set-up.
I'd be happy to.
Hi Eric,
The blind test was limited to testing for PQ I believe for logistical reasons. Maybe next EB, this can be the subject of the testing. :)
Based on my personal observations with the HD Pro, Xtreamer, WDTV Live and A200, I believe the current generation of realtek and sigma players can handle most 1080p files with ease, even the high bit rate files-as long the files are accessed via USB or internal drives. Via LAN, that's a different matter as I've encountered some stuttering with some of the players above with a number of my 1080p files. (But then my network is not optimized, so this can also be a major factor.) Moreso, if wireless streaming.
Cheers! ;D
IMHO, 99% of the mistakes in setting up a home wired lan is NOT following the proper specifications for cabling.
For a simple 10/100 follow the pin-outs for crimping properly;
(http://www.trangobroadband.com/im/cat5_pin_assgmt_strt.gif)
Most self-trained DIYers will probably just crimp a CAT 5 straight (1-1, 2-2, 3-3 etc) but if you note the diagram, the GREEN pair MUST be untwisted. You would think it doesn't matter, but if some people believe different speaker wire produces audible performance increases, then one must also believe that there is a reason why we do things a certain way in computer networks as well.
If you have doubts, just change the LAN cable to one that has been pre-built with connectors already that you can buy at any reputable store and try streaming 1080p on your wired lan. I'm pretty sure it will work because there's more than enough bandwidth on a plain jane cat 5 capable LAN.
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Wow. You learn something new here everyday. ;D
Sir sci-fi, how about when using gigabit cables? The same schematic applies?
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dapat yata may part 2 EB NMT shootout dami pa pala magagandang NMT out there
+1 dalin ko yung Dvico TVIX M-6500A namin...
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Wow. You learn something new here everyday. ;D
Sir sci-fi, how about when using gigabit cables? The same schematic applies?
Thanks...
20 years computer networking experience po kasi.
Cat 6 Pin-outs are the same but network wire must be certified. All that means is the cable is rated for higher performance (thicker insulator between twisted pairs inside) para walang cross-talk.
Madami rin other considerations sa cabling. I don't think most know that you CAN'T run ethernet wiring in the same bundle as wire with live electrical current or even RG6 used for cable TV. You also can't bundle more than 20 CAT5 together (which we do for our data centers). The weight of the wire alone will crush the innermost bundles causing problems.
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(http://www.gadgetguy.com.au/assets/images/5115_WesternDigital_WDTV-media-player.jpg)
With the results of the blind test...baka dumugin to ah.....(http://planetsmilies.net/happy-smiley-8809.gif)
Asan na ba ang aking 1st gen WDTV...matago nga baka nakawin....(http://planetsmilies.net/tongue-smiley-8855.gif)
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Wow. You learn something new here everyday. ;D
Sir sci-fi, how about when using gigabit cables? The same schematic applies?
same thing applies on Gigabit Ethernet, but the Cat5 or Cat5e cables won't work ... you will need a Cat6 cable, and it is not advisable that you do the crimping for such type ... better to buy pre-fabricated cables to make sure that it will work on gigabit standards - if you would check out the quality pre-fabricated Cat6 patch cords, there's a small PCB inside the connector, and the wires are soldered into it and not crimped
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The ranking per criterion:
SHARPNESS
1. WDTV – 4.43
2. Xtreamer – 4.38
3. E31B – 4.32
4. C200 – 4.22
5. Mede8er – 3.88
DETAIL
1. WDTV – 4.51
2. Xtreamer – 4.35
3. E31B – 4.28
4. C200 – 4.25
5. Mede8er – 4.05
MOTION STUTTER
1. E31B – 4.59
2. C200 – 4.56
3. Xtreamer – 4.55
4. WDTV – 4.48
5. Mede8er – 4.34
COLOR ACCURACY
1. WDTV – 4.40
2. Xtreamer – 4.30
3. C200 – 4.23
4. E31B – 4.16
5. Mede8er – 4.03
COLOR SATURATION
1. WDTV – 4.26
2. Xtreamer – 4.25
3. E31B – 4.17
4. C200 – 4.05
5. Mede8er – 4.01
EDGE ENHANCEMENT
1. Xtreamer – 4.36
2. WDTV – 4.32
3. E31B – 4.25
4. C200 – 4.23
5. Mede8er – 4.06
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I forgot to thank Jazzy Jake for making the spreadsheet program for computing the scores. Ang galing ng ginawa nya. Nandun na pala ang summaries per criterion, kaya nga ang bilis ko nagawa.
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Did you even out the manual picture/image settings of all players?
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Did you even out the manual picture/image settings of all players?
i think the rule was ... 'out of the box'
so no tweaking.
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I'd be happy to.
IMHO, 99% of the mistakes in setting up a home wired lan is NOT following the proper specifications for cabling.
For a simple 10/100 follow the pin-outs for crimping properly;
(http://www.trangobroadband.com/im/cat5_pin_assgmt_strt.gif)
Most self-trained DIYers will probably just crimp a CAT 5 straight (1-1, 2-2, 3-3 etc) but if you note the diagram, the GREEN pair MUST be untwisted. You would think it doesn't matter, but if some people believe different speaker wire produces audible performance increases, then one must also believe that there is a reason why we do things a certain way in computer networks as well.
If you have doubts, just change the LAN cable to one that has been pre-built with connectors already that you can buy at any reputable store and try streaming 1080p on your wired lan. I'm pretty sure it will work because there's more than enough bandwidth on a plain jane cat 5 capable LAN.
Hi Scifi-fan,
I didn't dare do the crimping myself and just had the pc store do it for me. :)
How about having multiple switches (is that what is called cascading) in the network. From the main wifi-G router, I setup a switch in my bedroom/AVR c onnected to the wifi router, so that I could connect the TV, a PS3 player, and the NMT/s to the network. What effect will this have?
Cheers!
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i think the rule was ... 'out of the box'
so no tweaking.
All the players tested were brand new then?
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All the players tested were brand new then?
Hi Clon,
I think the term is more "default settings" than "out-of-box" since this would imply brand new, which they were not. The players were personal players of streetsmart and the other participants.
Cheers! ;D
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Fair enough. so default settings were verified?
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Did you even out the manual picture/image settings of all players?
We used the default settings, except that we made the video output 1080p/24 and actual image size for all players.
Some players have settings for brightness and contrast but we left that untouched.
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Hi Clon,
I think the term is more "default settings" than "out-of-box" since this would imply brand new, which they were not. The players were personal players of streetsmart and the other participants.
Cheers! ;D
yes, my bad for using the term 'out of box' because it implied new units.
but it's still applicable for users like me who never really tweak the units i get and use them, as is ... like they were out of the box :D
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No big deal Bros.
One more question nga pala. What does higher score under Edge Enhancement criterion mean? Zanks!
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minimal edge enhancement scores better.
very memorable sa amin ang edge enhancement! ;D
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No big deal Bros.
One more question nga pala. What does higher score under Edge Enhancement criterion mean? Zanks!
haha, i'll leave the edge enhancement criterion explanation to sir mark.
but he did explain to us with exampleS what edge enhancement is. ;D
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Malaking bagay talaga ang video processor ni sir mark kaya na output ng 1080p/24. paano kaya kung walang processing? malaki kaya ang difference? mas makikita kaya natin ang output difference ng mga nmt?
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Mga sirs, it was an honor for me finally meeting you guys at the eb :D :D
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Malaking bagay talaga ang video processor ni sir mark kaya na output ng 1080p/24. paano kaya kung walang processing? malaki kaya ang difference? mas makikita kaya natin ang output difference ng mga nmt?
sir setup, the 1080p/24 setting is from the nmts, so the signal is coming from the nmt's processing, not the denon or the beast of a sony bravia projector. i think sir mark did this because 1080p/24 is very hard to do, so if a player can do this right, the image would have been bad.
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ayun pala..salamat po kagawad.
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Honestly nahirapan ako to tell the pq difference sa limang nmt.
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Hi Scifi-fan,
I didn't dare do the crimping myself and just had the pc store do it for me. :)
How about having multiple switches (is that what is called cascading) in the network. From the main wifi-G router, I setup a switch in my bedroom/AVR c onnected to the wifi router, so that I could connect the TV, a PS3 player, and the NMT/s to the network. What effect will this have?
Cheers!
Sent PM na lang so we don't hijack this thread :)
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sir setup, the 1080p/24 setting is from the nmts, so the signal is coming from the nmt's processing, not the denon or the beast of a sony bravia projector. i think sir mark did this because 1080p/24 is very hard to do, so if a player can do this right, the image would have been bad.
I think you meant to say that if the player does 1080p/24 right, the image (and particularly motion) will be good. This is because the native frame rate of film is 24 frames per second (fps). If your output is 1080p/60, there will be a slight stutter, especially with slow pans because the 24 fps is converted to 60 fps. Aside from the player, the display should also be able to handle 24 fps properly.
I think the players handled 24 fps pretty well. Motion was quite smooth.
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haha, i'll leave the edge enhancement criterion explanation to sir mark.
but he did explain to us with exampleS what edge enhancement is. ;D
minimal edge enhancement scores better.
very memorable sa amin ang edge enhancement! ;D
Unfortunately, I think very few people were listening during the very important explanation of edge enhancement on the educational material. ;D ;D ;D
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I think you meant to say that if the player does 1080p/24 right, the image (and particularly motion) will be good. This is because the native frame rate of film is 24 frames per second (fps). If your output is 1080p/60, there will be a slight stutter, especially with slow pans because the 24 fps is converted to 60 fps. Aside from the player, the display should also be able to handle 24 fps properly.
I think the players handled 24 fps pretty well. Motion was quite smooth.
my bad. :D
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Unfortunately, I think very few people were listening during the very important explanation of edge enhancement on the educational material. ;D ;D ;D
maybe few were listening but everyone is looking attentively at each sequence showing edge enhancement ;D ;D ;D
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All eyes on what's playing but, the i think the ears are on your explanation sir mark since very minimal lang ang sound that time.. bakit kaya ;D ;D ;D
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The ranking per criterion:
SHARPNESS
1. WDTV – 4.43
2. Xtreamer – 4.38
3. E31B – 4.32
4. C200 – 4.22
5. Mede8er – 3.88
DETAIL
1. WDTV – 4.51
2. Xtreamer – 4.35
3. E31B – 4.28
4. C200 – 4.25
5. Mede8er – 4.05
MOTION STUTTER
1. E31B – 4.59
2. C200 – 4.56
3. Xtreamer – 4.55
4. WDTV – 4.48
5. Mede8er – 4.34
COLOR ACCURACY
1. WDTV – 4.40
2. Xtreamer – 4.30
3. C200 – 4.23
4. E31B – 4.16
5. Mede8er – 4.03
COLOR SATURATION
1. WDTV – 4.26
2. Xtreamer – 4.25
3. E31B – 4.17
4. C200 – 4.05
5. Mede8er – 4.01
EDGE ENHANCEMENT
1. Xtreamer – 4.36
2. WDTV – 4.32
3. E31B – 4.25
4. C200 – 4.23
5. Mede8er – 4.06
Thanks Streetsmart for the breakdown. I just would like to clarify the rating on motion stutter. If the product rates high on this criteria, would it mean it stutters the most? Thanks.
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If I may Sir Mark,
The higher the score the less stuttering, playback should be better. ;)
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Ok so who wants to buy my Egreat 31B? Be reasonable. Some scratches on the top cover but I got it that way in April 2009 and didnt cause any further scratches during the entire year that Ive been using it.
Im going to buy another Mede8er, or maybe the WDTV Live.
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wow, interesting comparisons.
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Ok so who wants to buy my Egreat 31B? Be reasonable. Some scratches on the top cover but I got it that way in April 2009 and didnt cause any further scratches during the entire year that Ive been using it.
Im going to buy another Mede8er, or maybe the WDTV Live.
Sir, normally price range of this item should be below the equivalent cheapest player in the market, which is 4,850, at 30 percent to 10 percent less. So the price offer should be from 3395 to 4365. Since there are some scratches, and already almost a year old, then 3k would be a reasonable price if you purchased it brand new last april. If you purchased it second hand, a 2k to 2.5k would be acceptable. My opinion only on what is reasonable..
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Sir, normally price range of this item should be below the equivalent cheapest player in the market, which is 4,850, at 30 percent to 10 percent less. So the price offer should be from 3395 to 4365. Since there are some scratches, and already almost a year old, then 3k would be a reasonable price if you purchased it brand new last april. If you purchased it second hand, a 2k to 2.5k would be acceptable. My opinion only on what is reasonable..
Thank you. Makes more sense to keep the 31B then (or giveaway to relatives). Cant make the cheapest player in the market output HD audio. ;)
Just surprised how the 31B scored the highest in motion stutter given the fact the it would definitely stutter the most for high bit video streams. Parang camera na magaling kapag well illuminated but s*cks kapag madilim?
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Sir, sorry. Did not know that the egreat can output HD Audio. Anyway, the formula would still be the same.Only the base price would change.
I also would like to clarify about the motion stutter, since it may be that when you rate high in motion stutter, it means less stutter. Because when you add up the scores, the ratings criteria should be consistent, high score means good, less means bad. So high scores in sharpness, detail, etc. is considered good as well as in motion stutter. If not, need some adjustments on the rating in motion stutter.
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this is interesting....and i thought same lang lahat ng pq ng mga players since hd file naman na ang content....hope i can attend the next one...
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i have a few days to make a decision ...
mede8er vs. xtreamer (vs. xtreamer pro)
pareho ba chip model nitong dalawa? or newer ang mede8er?
Same dilema here been reading for 3 days straight
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No more blind tests?
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I've been testing my HDD with different media players around. Although different TVs because I just brought my HDD in different shops. Despite that, I was able to distinguish and found similarities on a couple of things based on my naked 20/20 eyes (hehe konting yabang). Here are my findings:
1. The 720p copy of my karate kid 2010 played considerably (or "pixely") the same as my TV's built in media player (Sharp Aquos) and the (LG 37LD460 tested in ansons).
2. The Xtreamer pro shows a bit better contrast but the same pixel quality (tested in SnS with 42LD460).
3. The Med8er 500x (c/o gadgets in style LD460) and Measy (c/o EYO avision AL69) played very similar. They are a bit more pixelated compared to Xtreamer pro and to my TV's own player plus the contrast is not very good. More on the gray side. I was also able to test the player sold in infomax greenhills (forgot the brand) and it played similar with these two RTD1073 players.
By the way I made sure all players I tested have default settings and no filtering features (eg. ken burns / 24p etc.)
With that said, I took the dive and got the ASUS O play HD2 as it has many input options (even CF cards!) and have very good reviews on the net. When I played movies on it, I was surprised with the picture quality it produced. Despite being RTD1073 as well, pixels are handled better, contrast is the same if not better than xtreamer, and it upscaled my SD divx/xvid files very well compared to my TVs own player. Based on the net, they say it has something to do with the noise handling feature. I tried turning it off but I couldn't distinguish the difference that much. I almost returned it because on initial impression I thought it was slow (I just had to disable indexing feature). It was very good purchase PQ wise.
I hope my canon digicam can capture the difference between my TV's built in player vs the HD2. If yes, I'll post it here.
Just my share...
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sana may new test ulet.
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+1, it will be interesting to field in S-Series (S100/S900/S800) vs. PCH
If/When a new HD Networked Media Player shootout happens, the following can make the mix very interesting:
egreat S900 2D - for its integrated bluray disc, plus NSS 3.5" drive tray +
7.1 or 5.1 analogy output (no need to upgrade your old 7.1 or 5.1 analog capable receiver to HDMI)
egreat S900 3D - for its 2Dto3D conversion
egreat S800 - for its 7.1 analogy output and excellent support for the following features:
autoplay video or audio folder (screen saving)
select audio output (HDMI, SPDIF, Analog out) (means this player can be fired up with your AVR without need for display, just put your favorite media (video or audio) an a specified folder (excellent for screensaver videos like aquarium or fireplace to set the mood)
S900 and S800 also has DTV recording, which is unfortunately we still can use here.
For Realtek, apart from the R200 we now have 1185 chip enabled players:
R1-ii (this baby is really popular for being an entry level 1185 chip based player running Redtimes GUI(incredibly fast!) and all external media/drive support (1 bare sata + 2 x USB + MMC/SDCARD)
at below 5K!
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If/When a new HD Networked Media Player shootout happens, the following can make the mix very interesting:
egreat S900 2D - for its integrated bluray disc, plus NSS 3.5" drive tray +
7.1 or 5.1 analogy output (no need to upgrade your old 7.1 or 5.1 analog capable receiver to HDMI)
egreat S900 3D - for its 2Dto3D conversion
egreat S800 - for its 7.1 analogy output and excellent support for the following features:
autoplay video or audio folder (screen saving)
select audio output (HDMI, SPDIF, Analog out) (means this player can be fired up with your AVR without need for display, just put your favorite media (video or audio) an a specified folder (excellent for screensaver videos like aquarium or fireplace to set the mood)
S900 and S800 also has DTV recording, which is unfortunately we still can use here.
For Realtek, apart from the R200 we now have 1185 chip enabled players:
R1-ii (this baby is really popular for being an entry level 1185 chip based player running Redtimes GUI(incredibly fast!) and all external media/drive support (1 bare sata + 2 x USB + MMC/SDCARD)
at below 5K!
will that be a shootout or just an egreat demo?
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will that be a shootout or just an egreat demo?
;D ;D ;D
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will that be a shootout or just an egreat demo?
Shootout dapat.
Para din mas masaya isali ang lahat na madalas bilin ng taong bayan -- HiMedia, Measy, kaiboer, Asus, ACRyan, at kung sino pa pede.
Better if zero seller participation, basta matuloy ang sayang dulot ng shootout.
Bring your own baon na test files.
Ito ang mga una kong binasa, when i joined PDVD, its a long thread ng opinions.
game! :)
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Shootout dapat.
Para din mas masaya isali ang lahat na madalas bilin ng taong bayan -- HiMedia, Measy, kaiboer, Asus, ACRyan, at kung sino pa pede.
Better if zero seller participation, basta matuloy ang sayang dulot ng shootout.
Bring your own baon na test files.
Ito ang mga una kong binasa, when i joined PDVD, its a long thread ng opinions.
game! :)
A blind test is not simple. In the first place, we have to decide what is the competition all about. The "features" you listed can't really be the subject of competition. They're either there or not there.
The previous blind test was a competition on the most basic feature of the players -- picture quality. The apparent conclusion was that the cheapest media player beat all the others. The real conclusion was that the differences were so tiny that it was really a tie among all players. In other words, there's really no difference, at least in pq.
Now, if there's some other aspect which you want to test against other players and which is common to all those players, maybe we can do a test. But what can that possibly be? Audio? Forget it - pareho lang yan.
Honestly, I think the competition among media players today is all about features, convenience, responsiveness, reliability, support, aesthetics, etc. With regard to the most basic features of pq and sq, my view is that they're all the same.
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A blind test is not simple. In the first place, we have to decide what is the competition all about. The "features" you listed can't really be the subject of competition. They're either there or not there.
The previous blind test was a competition on the most basic feature of the players -- picture quality. The apparent conclusion was that the cheapest media player beat all the others. The real conclusion was that the differences were so tiny that it was really a tie among all players. In other words, there's really no difference, at least in pq.
Now, if there's some other aspect which you want to test against other players and which is common to all those players, maybe we can do a test. But what can that possibly be? Audio? Forget it - pareho lang yan.
Honestly, I think the competition among media players today is all about features, convenience, responsiveness, reliability, support, aesthetics, etc. With regard to the most basic features of pq and sq, my view is that they're all the same.
Amen :D
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A blind test is not simple. In the first place, we have to decide what is the competition all about. The "features" you listed can't really be the subject of competition. They're either there or not there.
The previous blind test was a competition on the most basic feature of the players -- picture quality. The apparent conclusion was that the cheapest media player beat all the others. The real conclusion was that the differences were so tiny that it was really a tie among all players. In other words, there's really no difference, at least in pq.
Now, if there's some other aspect which you want to test against other players and which is common to all those players, maybe we can do a test. But what can that possibly be? Audio? Forget it - pareho lang yan.
Honestly, I think the competition among media players today is all about features, convenience, responsiveness, reliability, support, aesthetics, etc. With regard to the most basic features of pq and sq, my view is that they're all the same.
I agree NMT features are there or not.
I agree built, reliability, aesthetic appeal to users and UI is where HD players win their owners.
I agree its never simple, but it was a good read and would be cool to get a refresh (or a similar activity done by the community.
Why now? I was thinking along the lines --- its nearing 18 months since last shootout, maybe its time to rekindle this thread with something new.
Technology changes every 18 months (nes if tama pa ito?) -- NMTs evolve, new players emerge, technologies change what does remain is sustained interest on NMT(HD Media Player).
I have no idea what to tackle next after the PQ question which was answered feb/2010. Maybe other PDVD members have better suggestions on what the next should out should be and perhaps go from there.
:)
p.s. someone texted me last night asking if i take the replies as an idea shootdown. Not at all, Saw a few wishing for a new shootout, am sure there are others out there. Fact that people took time to reply means its all alive and well. Fact remains we all have this affinity for HD media players (and I dont call 'em NMT coz "N" means networked, so its HD media player for me kasi some players dont have Network capability)
;)