You don't have to open your speakers. You can do something like this.
From amplifier speaker terminals
+ spkr terminal <---------------> snubber circuit -----> + spkr connector
- spkr terminal <-----------------------------------------> - spkr connector
Please take note that the <----------> are speaker cables
This way the snubber circuit is external and you can compare with or without it much more easily.
But sir rascal, I know all standard amplifiers today has output snubbers already in the speaker path!
Or are you just saying adding more snubbers will further clean the signal?
I think you may be referring to feedback compensation on the amplifiers which is a standard circuit. The component values for feedback compensation are different from snubber circuits. For amplifiers, usually it is just a choke at the output.
If we look at the resulting circuit, it would be an RLC. The C in series with the L (speaker) forms a series resonant circuit. Series C and parallel L (to output) means high pass so it is a high pass circuit.
With the resulting C at 135uF, low freq response should be fairly good.
I believe it does.
I didn't say it was about cleaning the signal. I said better and "cleaner" signal. I said "cleaner" because the snubber helps reduce EMI emissions (Sorry but I couldn't help that my mind still rakes with SMPS).
I really didn't study much about these Zobel Networks except I read that it's used for impedance matching. But the RC circuit I'm using here is primarily for leading edge peak voltage reduction and damping. The reason I'm saying that is because you have so much noise from source to amp and you really need a way to reduce these noise without interfering with transient response of your audio system. Further, it really looks like the way we do it on power supply circuits.
You should try it :)
The Zobel network is an RC circuit in parallel with the speaker or load. It is different when you have a series RC. The series RC forms a voltage clamp to the C in parallel with it. The idea is to reduce peak voltage and do some damping so you can achieve better sound.
You can always use higher capacitor (instead of 270uF in series) so you can lower corner freq.
You compute values for your R and C such that RC time constant is low and resulting frequency is > 100KHz.
The RC snubber circuit is in parallel with a C. If you compute the total impedance, it is lower than the impedance of the C alone.
Please do take time to read on passive rc snubber circuits. Although the circuit is not primarily aimed for audio, I believe there is similarity. For those with doubts, please test the circuit at the bench and do listening test :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/jojod818/Dump/lowpass.jpg)
CMIIW, but wouldn't the lower part form a first order high pass filter with an F3 of about 98-147Hz for a driver that exhibits 6 to 4 ohms of impedance at this frequency (typical "8 ohm nominal" speaks these days). If I got this right, then the lows would be rolled off and the driver damping would be continually diminished together with the capacitor's impedance rise.
The parallel resistor won't improve damping, because the 220nF capacitor in series to the resistor would effectively decouple it for the entire audible band.
Just to clarify on my previous statements.
I think that your analysis for the series RC is not right. Your analysis is only effective if the RC circuit is in parallel with the load wherein it functions as a low pass filter. When you have series RC, your R just forms a voltage drop (for leading edge peak voltage reduction) and your C is effectively shorted when there is increasing frequency.
>> Above still refers to the larger C without the snubber resistor so the 220nF snubber capacitor is now in parallel with the larger C resulting to 135.22uF.
Guys, smaller speakers have higher min frequency operation so 100 - 150Hz should be fairly acceptable. If you want to try it with bigger speakers use higher value capacitors. Further, it doesn't have to be increasing the value of the capacitor you can also parallel a smallish value choke which should effectively end issues on low frequency performance :)
No. It is not due to the lower ESR why current is mostly passing at the larger capacitor. It is simply because of its lower impedance. Even if ESR is 3.9ohms the total impedance of the RC circuit is still higher.
Both the large C and RC snubber are high pass filters. Only difference is the RC works at higher frequencies than the large C. You are correct, from the impedance perspective the RC circuit has higher total impedance hence there is less current. However, the basis for filter class is voltage not current.
Sorry, I used the wrong term. I meant impedance, as we are talking about AC signals.
It seems that some of the defining moments of this discussion has mixed AC and DC analysis. I humbly suggest that we stick with AC analysis for no audiophile/hobbyist in his right mind would feed and listen to DC on their speakers.
No, it is for a series connection. Granted that your main high pass filter (the big C) is taken out of the equation, the resistor will also act as a load, hence the voltage drop across it at ultrasonic frequencies (when the small C impedance is low). It's running a high pass filter on the resistor and the driver. However, when trying to listen to audible frequencies, the voltage drop would almost entirely be on the capacitor (in fact the impedance presented would probably be so high that the speaker output should only be barely audible if the big C is out). How would this work when the big C path already introduces a much lower impedance path in the first place?
Therefore, in my opinion it will still work as a high pass filter.
@stagea
There are two 270uF capacitors in series so the total capacitance is 135uF. Adding the 220nF, total capacitance becomes 135.22uF :)
I've been saying this all along, but I will put it in very simple paragraphs.
1. The big caps already pass the ultrasonic frequencies, because it is a High Pass filter. It lets higher frequency signals pass.
2. The "snubber" will not damp ultra high frequencies, because it passes it too (it's not shorting them out, like in a configuration parallel to the driver). It's a High Pass filter when in series with the driver.
3. Even if the "snubber" started to "work" at those very high frequencies, the big caps are already passing those ultra high frequencies to begin with... without a series resistor at that. That makes the RC pretty redundant in this design (unless you can get significant inductance out of those capacitors at these frequencies).
Lastly, I never said that those ultrasonic frequencies did not matter. That is being disputed by many people, but I'm not taking sides with this because I actually have music recordings that supposedly have those ultrasonic frequencies (not plain old CDs). I also buy gear that supposedly can reproduce them.
Please just read the material on passive RC snubbers. I guess you have not spent time. Also read about RC time constants. You can PM me for further questions. If you have the time, you can check on your cellphone charger on the output rectifier diodes. You can also check the temperature of your output rectifier diodes with and without the RC snubber.
1. The big caps already pass the ultrasonic frequencies, because it is a High Pass filter. It lets higher frequency signals pass.
2. The "snubber" will not damp ultra high frequencies, because it passes it too (it's not shorting them out, like in a configuration parallel to the driver). It's a High Pass filter when in series with the driver.
3. Even if the "snubber" started to "work" at those very high frequencies, the big caps are already passing those ultra high frequencies to begin with... without a series resistor at that. That makes the RC pretty redundant in this design (unless you can get significant inductance out of those capacitors at these frequencies).
I did not expect a Php 50.00 suggestion can merit such discussion :)
I think I'm still within the guidelines :)
You're right the snubber only works on the devices where it is in parallel with.
Hehehe ... the pulsating DC looks like AC
You're right the snubber only works on the devices where it is in parallel with.
Anyway, nice discussion :)
I did not expect a Php 50.00 suggestion can merit such discussion :)
Keep up what you are doing.
If the modification you did sound good to you then go with it.
And keep on posting it as there may be some readers who may want to try it and could benefit from it.
:)
Simplehan natin iyung paliwanag sa snubber.
Sa obserbasyon ko kasi ang mga capacitor na mataas ang value - mga 1uF at mas mataas pa, mabagal kumarga at magdiskarga. Hindi gaanong ma-detalye mga capacitor na ito. Smooth kung smooth pero may kulang lalo sa mga "high".
Kapag nagparallel ka ng mas maliit na capacitor (Cs) mas nagiging claro ang tunog. Iyung "high" nabubuhay. Lalo na kung 10nF na Vishay MKP1837 o hindi kaya ay 10nF Evox PFR. Mas mabilis ng di hamak kumarga at magdiskarga mga ito (dahil sa liit ng value nila at dahil sila ay polypropelene). Ang problema lang minsan, sa bilis ng mga ito mas nagiging matalas tumunog at hindi siya ganun ka ganda kapag pinares sa ibang capacitor. Kaya ang isang paraan para makontrol ang bilis ng pagkarga at diskarga ay ang paggamit ng isang series resistor (Rs). Ang pagkarga at diskarga ngayon ay kontrolado ng RC time constant (t = 2*pi*Rs*Cs). Dati rati kung walang Rs ang nagkokontrol ay ang bilis lang ng capacitor mismo.
Sa obserbasyon ko, iyung Rs nagkokontrol ng talas at iyung Cs naman ng bilis ng nota. Kung mataas ang Cs mabagal at kung mababa naman mas mabilis maputol ang mga nota. Madali itong pansinin sa piano kung saan hindi dapat nag-eextend ang mga nota.
Siyempre depende na rin sa capacitor na ginamit mo ang ganda ng tunog ng mga nota. Marami kang puwedeng pagpilian. Doon sa www.humblehomemadehifi.com may mga reviews ng capacitor doon. Kung hirap ka naman bumili ng mga sinabi doon tawagan mo ang Spin Electronics (tel no 5312029, 7170947). Marami silang iba't ibang capacitor na puwedeng pagpilian. Kausapin mo si Ma'am Digna o si Phillip.
May mga sikreto na dapat sikreto kahit anong mangyari. Mahirap na ;D
Hanggang dito na lang siguro baka ako mapalo o hindi kaya ay masisante :)
OT: ^Meron pala akong maliit na Neem tree. Gaganda lalo ang tunog ng Kenwood CDP mo kasi makakapag focus ka na ... hehehe. Saktong sakto rin kapag nag-borjer at walang istorbo ;D ;D ;D
For now, I think I'll just stick with the air core choke and the snubber resistor and capacitor - 3 components. Nobody really likes complicated mods (including me) :)
Schematic Diagram (edited 8/31/2010 10:05pm, changed R1 to 5ohms)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d87/rascal101/snub_schem1.png)
Bill of Materials (BOM)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d87/rascal101/bom_snub1-1.png)
^Yes Sir. You can use the same values of R1, C3, L2, C1 and C2 on your mini-component. However, please be prepared to make slight adjustments as what happened to me above.
I suggest you also prepare 2pcs each of 5ohm/5W and 10ohm/5W resistors. This way if the sound is dull to your taste, you can parallel the 10ohm/5W resistor to the 5ohm/5W resistor.
Further, please prepare 2pcs of 100nF/50V Mylar capacitor as replacement of the 220nF/50V Mylar capacitor. The piano notes (to my recollection) are a bit extended with 220nF/50V Mylar capacitor. But that's just me.
For the regular speaker, please try it on your tweeter without the C1 and C2 because your tweeter should already have its own capacitor.
Pa advise na lang po ng listening impressions at iyung final values na ginamit mo :)
Would this also applicable to regular speaker...
i wanna try this tweak to the spkrs of my mini compos. Same value pa rin ba?
^Optional po siya sa tweeters - meron ng coupling capacitor kasi. Sa single driver speakers, kailangan po siya.
Sir Jeff,
I foresee no issues using this value. It is higher than the total of the 270uF/63V in series. The cutoff is lowered from ~125Hz to ~118Hz which is better :)
However, if the capacitor you used is the non-polar type then very good. If you are using the polar type - it should not be used this way.
Anyway, I do hope you're enjoying with your "new" toy :)
Sa tweeter lang talaga iyung snubber circuit. Ilagay mo in parallel sa tweeter capacitor.
May PM pala ako sa iyo. Iyung sinabi ko, doon sa woofer mo ilagay.
Sa tweeter lang talaga iyung snubber circuit. Ilagay mo in parallel sa tweeter capacitor.
May PM pala ako sa iyo. Iyung sinabi ko, doon sa woofer mo ilagay.
Rascal101, thanks for answering my inquiries. Yup this really improves my mini compo speakers. My next project is to put this thing in my stock Car Speakers :oI've done that. It was so musical with my car audio set up stock Targa speakers. :)
I've done that. It was so musical with my car audio set up stock Targa speakers. :)Wow! Once I have time will definitely create another one. More power to you Bro!
Bro Wengkapre,
Hindi ko sure kung ano ibig sabihin ng "warm" na term sa audio dahil hindi ko ginagamit. Pero tama ka ang epekto noong tweak ay sa mid at highs at mas makapal na boses.
sir mel newbie lang po ??? pede po ba yan sa 6 inch na woofer or 4.. para po makalikot ko na tong speaker ko na nakakainis na tunog.. ;D ;D
TIA!!!
nice thread sir, will try this later... newbie question lang po malaki po ba difference ng snubber sa crossover when enhancing speakers ???
thanks! thanks!
^Puwede po Sir.
Lets update this thread. Looking at the Speakers threads one will notice members talking about brands of speakers however very little discussion goes into extracting the performance of those speaker brands through proper placement. Setting up speakers incorrectly degrades the performance of all speakers regardless of brand and cost.
Here is a very handy device that I have been using to tune the vertical and horizontal axis of my set ups including adjusting speaker rake, toe in/out, distance to boundaries etc. Whats unique about this tool is that it has a built in pump that enables the entire tool to stick on top or sides of the speakers thereby making the adjustments so easy.
Ryobi Air grip laser level
https://www.ryobitools.com/products/details/670
(https://cc831cbd7a5a3a616f82-5093119187eb17284bcf20613cda98f7.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/products/photos/large_1cd06699-e950-4829-867a-f32e7fa2aa44.jpg)
Its the best USD20.00 investment that I bought in improving my system.
I have a similar device and haven't thought of using it the way you did. Hehe! Thanks! Hindi lang pang-construction, pang audio pa!
Lets update this thread. Looking at the Speakers threads one will notice members talking about brands of speakers however very little discussion goes into extracting the performance of those speaker brands through proper placement. Setting up speakers incorrectly degrades the performance of all speakers regardless of brand and cost.
Here is a very handy device that I have been using to tune the vertical and horizontal axis of my set ups including adjusting speaker rake, toe in/out, distance to boundaries etc. Whats unique about this tool is that it has a built in pump that enables the entire tool to stick on top or sides of the speakers thereby making the adjustments so easy.
Ryobi Air grip laser level
https://www.ryobitools.com/products/details/670
(https://cc831cbd7a5a3a616f82-5093119187eb17284bcf20613cda98f7.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/products/photos/large_1cd06699-e950-4829-867a-f32e7fa2aa44.jpg)
Its the best USD20.00 investment that I bought in improving my system.
May nagbebenta kaya nito sa Pilipinas?
I have this one:
(https://www.coastaltool.com/a/ab/pls/images/ft90_app.jpg)
sir, pwede ba yung snubber circuit nyo sa JBL L40? 2 way sya at di pa nagagalaw yung dividing network, gumagana pa rin yung high frequency control. ano magandang upgrade para sa JBL L40?
this thread is, BTW, a very nice read for the weekend. thanks for sharing.
Puwede naman Sir. I-adjust mo na lang mga values base sa pandinig mo.
Meron po ba kayo mga bagong ideya dito?
Yes. Benta mo then palitan ng masbago and masmaganda tumunog. Haha! Joke lang ha!!!
Meron po ba kayo mga bagong ideya dito?buy d'agostino separates, im sure it will maximize your speaker.. ;D