PinoyDVD: The Pinoy Digital Video & Devices Community
Home Theater => Displays => Flat Panels => Topic started by: Timithekid on Sep 04, 2012 at 07:47 AM
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To the tv guru's out there, please explain the subject. I have been to several electronic stores and these two features are always a selling point. I'm now interested to find out if it does at all matter or not, i tried to do my own research and came to a conclusion that its about motion refresh rate, baka mali intindi ko so please corect me. What i don't understand though is how much difference is there between 120hz and 240hz? Marketing lang ba or may lamang talaga?
From what i also gather this feature is not important in plasmas and are only applicable to led/lcd. I hope some people can help me understand.
BTW, i read from these two links to help me understand:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2379206,00.asp
http://reviews.cnet.com/240hz-lcd-tvs-what-you-need-to-know/
To the mods kung mali po ng lugar sa pagpost palipat na lang sa tama...salamat. :)
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120hz is fine. The difference is not that noticeable sir. :)
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Anything above 100Hz motion refresh rate, almost the same performance, 240Hz over 120hz may give more smoothness. What they do is to make video motion moves/pan smoother but it loses the "cinema-like" feel.
More here:
http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,105545.0.html
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And here: http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,129293.0.html
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eto ata yung sinasabing parang nanood ka ng live na telenovela ;D
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What i don't understand though is how much difference is there between 120hz and 240hz? Marketing lang ba or may lamang talaga?
Konti lang ang difference, hindi masyadong mapapansin.
I'm now interested to find out if it does at all matter or not, i tried to do my own research and came to a conclusion that its about motion refresh rate, baka mali intindi ko so please corect me.
The short answer is that it's about frames per second. As you know, a movie is not a real moving picture, but a series of sequential still pictures shown so fast that you get the illusion that you're looking at a real moving picture. A movie is shown at the rate of 24 fps (frames per second). They convert that to 60 fps for NTSC video format (which is actually 59.94 fps progressive and 29.97 fps interlaced). Then they insert additional frames and increase that to 120 fps (60 x 2) or 240 fps (60 x 4), which they call 120 Hz and 240 Hz.
The long answer is that 120 Hz and 240 Hz are motion interpolation technologies. Movies are originally filmed at a rate of 24 fps, then shown in the movie theater with a double or triple shutter to reduce flicker. Since the frame rate of 24 fps is relatively slow, you will see motion judder especially when the camera pans horizontally. There's nothing wrong with that effect, since that's natural for 24 fps film presentations.
However, when 24 fps is converted to 60 fps video format, the judder gets worse. It's no longer the "good judder" of 24 fps film, it's now the "bad judder" of telecine conversion caused by slight pulldown errors in the process of converting 24 fps film to 29.97 fps NTSC.
Ostensibly to eliminate film judder in film-based video sources, LCD makers introduced motion interpolation technology. They insert frames in between existing frames and use software to effectively guess how the picture in those intermediate frames should look like.
Illustration:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Motion_interpolation_example.jpg/600px-Motion_interpolation_example.jpg)
Above: the original frames. Below: with interpolated intermediate frames inserted.
Does it eliminate judder? Yes.
Does it improve the picture? It depends on the viewer. Movie enthusiasts prefer to watch the original movie, including the original motion cadence. Removing the judder will alter the 24fps cadence and make the movie look like it was shot on home video Handycam, which ruins the original motion cadence of real 24fps film.
The US forums call it the SOE (soap opera effect). I call it the telenovela effect.
And don't think motion interpolation is perfect. The tech requires instant complex calculations, so it's not surprising that you'll see an occasional glitch. The most common complaint is the screen tearing artifact during motion. Here's an illustration:
(http://itandstuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/video-tearing.png)
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Thank you sa mga replies, at least now i know that how i understood it was almost the same. So in a way, selling 240 as better shouldnt really fly sa consumer,its more of a marketing move kasi i wont be able to notice the difference anyway.
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Meron na palang 240hz??? One of my checklist now if ever i plan to buy another LED TV in the future is to make sure it's at least 120hz since I really enjoyed the Trumotion technology of my LG right now. Kahit sa TV mode naka-set ako sa 120hz simulation and yun mga visitors namin na nakakanood sa bahay, ang ganda nga daw and cinematic effect talaga :)
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Meron na palang 240hz??? One of my checklist now if ever i plan to buy another LED TV in the future is to make sure it's at least 120hz since I really enjoyed the Trumotion technology of my LG right now. Kahit sa TV mode naka-set ako sa 120hz simulation and yun mga visitors namin na nakakanood sa bahay, ang ganda nga daw and cinematic effect talaga :)
Meron nang mga CMR 960 / Motion Flow 960. How much it helps, I don't know. These are actually 240Hz panels with the LEDs blinking 4x per frame change to generate a "960Hz" output.
I would love to see panels with little interframe crosstalk at 240Hz (meaning very fast response), for use with high speed 3D glasses. Baka sakaling mabawasan ang flicker ng active glasses.
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The US forums call it the SOE (soap opera effect). I call it the telenovela effect.
i witnessed this SOE sa sights and sounds, though its impressive to see that captain america looked like he was about to walk out of the TV screen, nakakasawa after some extended viewing. It did not feel like watching a movie anymore, it felt more like a videocam was in my hand and i was recording it myself. This though is just my opinion, if others appreciate that type of reality I respect that too.
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It is a novelty just like 3D na ok sa umpisa but when you use it often, di mo narin mapapansin. Problem is that your level of viewing will be up by a notch. You might not be satisfied anymore watching material without it.
Note: Others can be sensitive to this effect and causes dizziness and headaches during prolonged viewing. Tried to put the effect in maximum and I wasn't able to tolerate it. Low to moderate level is acceptable for me.
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It is a novelty just like 3D na ok sa umpisa but when you use it often, di mo narin mapapansin. Problem is that your level of viewing will be up by a notch. You might not be satisfied anymore watching material without it.
Note: Others can be sensitive to this effect and causes dizziness and headaches during prolonged viewing. Tried to put the effect in maximum and I wasn't able to tolerate it. Low to moderate level is acceptable for me.
I agree. Pag nasanay ka, parang ang choppy pag walang motion interpolation. Prior issues like tearing and artifacts had been mostly eliminated na din kasi in current renditions.
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Para sakin, panandalian effect ang telenovela look, kya kpag mag upgrade ako ng tv, bigger at full-hd ang icoconsider ko (of course store after saless support and reliability)
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I agree. Pag nasanay ka, parang ang choppy pag walang motion interpolation. Prior issues like tearing and artifacts had been mostly eliminated na din kasi in current renditions.
Yun pala yun tearing na nakita ninyo sa PJ ko. Is that PJ, medium or PC issue?
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It is a novelty just like 3D na ok sa umpisa but when you use it often, di mo narin mapapansin. Problem is that your level of viewing will be up by a notch. You might not be satisfied anymore watching material without it.
Depende sa user.
In your case, pag nasanay sa interpolation, you see it as "up a notch" --- nasanay sa high tech TV, ayaw na ng walang high tech feature.
In my case, I see it as "down a notch" --- nasanay sa mali, ayaw na ng tamang 24p motion cadence ;).
However, in case of 60p source material, may improvement nga. For example, pag National Geographic docu originally shot in 60fps digital, mas stable and solid tignan ang motion pag walang motion judder.
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Yun pala yun tearing na nakita ninyo sa PJ ko. Is that PJ, medium or PC issue?
Wala naman frame interpolation ang projector mo. That's caused by your video adapter having difficulty filling two screens set to 1080p simultaneously at 60Hz. You can largely eliminate it by any of the following options:
1. running a single screen
2. running your screens at 720p
3. running a lower refresh rate
4. upgrading to a superior video adapter
5. adjusting video driver settings (will impact image quality)
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Wala naman frame interpolation ang projector mo. That's caused by your video adapter having difficulty filling two screens set to 1080p simultaneously at 60Hz. You can largely eliminate it by any of the following options:
1. running a single screen
2. running your screens at 720p
3. running a lower refresh rate
4. upgrading to a superior video adapter
5. adjusting video driver settings (will impact image quality)
Thanks master. Or waiting for master Paul's PJ kapag nag-upgrade na. :D
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Thanks master. Or waiting for master Paul's PJ kapag nag-upgrade na. :D
Ahh oo, namimili daw between VPL-VW1000 and DLA-X90.
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Luma na LED ko,... Hehehe
I just went to COSTCO yesterday, at pagpasok na pagpasok mo pa lang ng warehouse
ay naka-demo na ang Samsung 55" LED na may 720hz... Damn,..!
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Luma na LED ko,... Hehehe
I just went to COSTCO yesterday, at pagpasok na pagpasok mo pa lang ng warehouse
ay naka-demo na ang Samsung 55" LED na may 720hz... Damn,..!
this time around it won't just look like a soap opera but would feel like you are watching theater. hehe, parang hindi na ata enjoy yan...
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Luma na LED ko,... Hehehe
I just went to COSTCO yesterday, at pagpasok na pagpasok mo pa lang ng warehouse
ay naka-demo na ang Samsung 55" LED na may 720hz... Damn,..!
i wonder what porn would look like sa 720hz ::)
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Luma na LED ko,... Hehehe
I just went to COSTCO yesterday, at pagpasok na pagpasok mo pa lang ng warehouse
ay naka-demo na ang Samsung 55" LED na may 720hz... Damn,..!
Yep, Samsung has CMR 960 and CMR 720 panels (also used by Sony on their flagship models). I've seen them sa AV Surfer, very smooth nga ang motion. The motion resolution is also superb, thanks to the scanning backlight. Mahal lang talaga.
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IMHO, for most users the only thing you need to remember is 60Hz is enough for TVs < than 40 inches. 40 inches and above 120Hz is recommended.
I'm not convinced yet that there is significant difference from 120 Hz and 240 Hz.
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IMHO, for most users the only thing you need to remember is 60Hz is enough for TVs < than 40 inches. 40 inches and above 120Hz is recommended.
I'm not convinced yet that there is significant difference from 120 Hz and 240 Hz.
Sa 3D ata kailangan 120hz...?
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Sa 3D ata kailangan 120hz...?
Most if not all 3DTVs starts on 40 inches and above TVs anyway. So, that general rule of thumb still holds.
And the writing in the wall is 3DTV is a flop. Anyone still considering buying a 3DTV is wasting their money but the stupidest of them all is someone buying a 3D-enabled BD player when his TV is not 3DTV.
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Most if not all 3DTVs starts on 40 inches and above TVs anyway. So, that general rule of thumb still holds.
And the writing in the wall is 3DTV is a flop. Anyone still considering buying a 3DTV is wasting their money but the stupidest of them all is someone buying a 3D-enabled BD player when his TV is not 3DTV.
Maybe the buyer is considering a tv upgrade to a 3d tv or a 3d pj.
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Anyone still considering buying a 3DTV is wasting their money but the stupidest of them all is someone buying a 3D-enabled BD player when his TV is not 3DTV.
I think kaya sila bumibili ng 3D BDP is because future proofing lang. IMHO, hindi ata magandang word yun ginamit ninyo sir to label those who buy 3D BDP w/o a 3DTV.
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Baka naman nagaabang lang ng preowned 3D TV. Besides pwede din namang pang 2D yung player and if yoiu notice the trend sa marketplace dito halos di na naglalalayo and presyo ng 2D and 3D players. Sa mga bluray discs lang nagkakatalo.
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Most if not all 3DTVs starts on 40 inches and above TVs anyway. So, that general rule of thumb still holds.
And the writing in the wall is 3DTV is a flop. Anyone still considering buying a 3DTV is wasting their money but the stupidest of them all is someone buying a 3D-enabled BD player when his TV is not 3DTV.
I had a 3D tv and I don't consider it as a waste of money.. I watch 3D every now and then but not too often. Some of my friends like to watch 3D movies and some don't.. It's all about preference..
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i wonder what porn would look like sa 720hz ::)
Baka magalit ang BEST BUY kapag ipinademo ko yan sir,...
Hehehe
But I'm quite impressed sa 720Hz, might get a 60" soon,...
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3D TV is not a waste of money, I have watched several 3D movies and I enjoyed it a lot. Maybe if your going to buy a TV with passive 3D glasses, quality is not that good but when it comes to active shutter glasses it's a different story. You'll be amazed of the picture quality and depth that you will see. My friends even prefer playing nba 2k12 on 3D rather than 2D. In my case I don't turn on the soap opera effect when watching 2D movies I prefer 24 fps. Normally if you raise the level of the refresh rate to 100hz higher it produces tearing artifacts which isn't good. ;D
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Don't mind icefrog, he's entitled to his own opinion, if others enjoy 3d so be it, if they are preppin for a future upgrade thats why they are buying a 3D player thats cool too. As long as the owner enjoys the gear that he bought, icefrog's opinion shouldn't matter.
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ok na sana kung 120hz lang to, TOSHIBA 40PU200 for 23k
http://www.regza-asia.com/product-features-pu200.html
FULL HD
playback compatibility of 28 video formats usb/external HDD
Optical audio out
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ok na sana kung 120hz lang to, TOSHIBA 40PU200 for 23k
http://www.regza-asia.com/product-features-pu200.html
FULL HD
playback compatibility of 28 video formats usb/external HDD
Optical audio out
unless its 3d, you won't need 120hz.
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unless its 3d, you won't need 120hz.
ok ba 60hz 40" pang bluray sir?
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the bigger the screen the better, but a 40" aint so bad.
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IMHO, for most users the only thing you need to remember is 60Hz is enough for TVs < than 40 inches. 40 inches and above 120Hz is recommended.
I'm not convinced yet that there is significant difference from 120 Hz and 240 Hz.
Mas maganda daw kc 120 Hz pag 40"and above
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Mas maganda daw kc 120 Hz pag 40"and above
says who? :) try to back read what atty. barrister posted here. films are shot at 24fps, so the 120 is to compensate through interpolation. Barrister explained it very well so I'd suggest reading it, baka kasi malito kita eh.
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says who? :) try to back read what atty. barrister posted here. films are shot at 24fps, so the 120 is to compensate through interpolation. Barrister explained it very well so I'd suggest reading it, baka kasi malito kita eh.
salamat :)
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and here http://www.rtings.com/info/what-is-the-refresh-rate#24p
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And the writing in the wall is 3DTV is a flop. Anyone still considering buying a 3DTV is wasting their money but the stupidest of them all is someone buying a 3D-enabled BD player when his TV is not 3DTV.
No problem in expressing your views but please. No name calling even if its not specific to someone.
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just reviving this. hehe
in simplest terms (from what i have learned. those who are more versed in this thing can correct me), 120hz refers to the refresh rate of the LCD. this is not what causes the SOE. the culprit for SOE is motion interpolation. Ito yung gumagawa ng new images to fill in the blanks for movies with 24fps.
in short, kahit may 120hz tv ka pero wala naman siyang motion interpolation feature, wala pa din yung SOE. But tv manufacturers these days use 120hz+(propriertary motion interpolation name) as a combined term which brings confusion sa unknowing consumers.
i do love the SOE though. don't care if its not how the directors intended their movies to be seen. it's something that looks good to my eyes and I enjoy watching everything with SOE on. When I turn it off, movies look jumpy. i guess nasanay na talaga.
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pareho lang ba ito ng 60fps? napansin ko kasi pag 60fps ang swabe ng galaw especially sa nba
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pasingit sir anya, meron din ba "true motion" s PJ? Or alike feature sa NMT ?
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pasingit sir anya, meron din ba "true motion" s PJ? Or alike feature sa NMT ?
yes PJ has a 120hz AE7000,AE8000 epson 5010, 5020 and other brand in mid end range. For NMT wala pa ata.
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sa display lang yata yung me trumotion feature, wala sa nmt
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pasingit sir anya, meron din ba "true motion" s PJ? Or alike feature sa NMT ?
trumotion is for display only.
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pareho lang ba ito ng 60fps? napansin ko kasi pag 60fps ang swabe ng galaw especially sa nba
24fps = standard. nakasanayan ng lahat. 24 unique frames
30fps = video camera recording. 30 unique frames
48fps = The Hobbit. 48 unique frames
technically, iba yung interpolation sa FPS pero they bring about a similar effect = Soap opera effect. Parang shot live. yun nga lang with native 30fps and up, natural and REAL unique frames lahat whereas sa motion interpolation, the tv creates FAKE frames to simulate extra "unique" frames.
to add: if all movies were shot @ 48fps, magiging useless yung motion interpolation feature ng tvs.