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Home Theater => Sources => Audio Only Sources => Topic started by: Jimmy on Dec 03, 2001 at 07:51 PM

Title: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Jimmy on Dec 03, 2001 at 07:51 PM: Recently visited a record store at Mega Mall and found Warner DVD Audio disc selling at Php750 each. My questions: 1) Will these discs play on an ordinary DVD player and can it be decoded its 6 chan. audio out? Will it have a regional coding or RCE encoded on it? Will it play DTS or DD 5.1 audio as if it were like movie audio? 2)Is SACD format will be on only?. Also visited Image at Harisson and bought George Benson DVD Audio, but to my dismay it won't play on my Philips 860. And was told that it will play on any DVD but only be decoded as an ordinary CD audio unless using an DVD Audio player,Is that true? An was also told that an SACD player will output stereo signal only(left and right) not 6 chan audio, Is that true? How come it has an optical and coaxial output? Do we need another amplifier or decoder for these medium to enjoy a 6 chan? Hoping for your response.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Phobos on Dec 03, 2001 at 08:09 PM: I'm not familiar with DVD Audio, but this thread may be of help:

DVD-Audio (http://www.pinoydvd.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.cgi?board=htaudio&action=display&num=1006838209)
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: levi on Jun 03, 2002 at 07:32 PM: Repost from anothert thread

Quote from: lexmil on Jun 03, 2002 at 04:18 PM

To robertj, manila and all those discussing earleir on the pros and cons of having a separate HT and audio-only set-up, (I think we should have a searate thread on this, or is there already), I just want to get your opinion on this:

Once the SACD (SuperAudio CD) and DVD-Audio titles are released and, ofcourse, their players, out in the market, how will you reconcile 5.1 up to 7.1 channels of discretely encoded music with a 2-speaker hi-end audio set-up>

I've listened to concerts of Earl Klugh (The Jazz Channel label) and those of the Bee Gees, the Eagles, Kenny Logins etc, in 5.1 DD or and DTS (I have yet to get a symphoniy peformance, do you know of any?) and have noted the apparrent accoustical depth and sonic brilllance of these performances on an HT 6-speaker set-up versus a 2-speaker stereo only mode. (For one, the audience responses are at the rear speakers making me feel like being very close to the soundstage with the rest of the audience at the back.) I will not claim it is sonically superior to a 2-spkr high-end set-up (which I also have.) The listening experience, though, is just marvellosly satisfying. I can't recall having this experience on my father's 4-channel system that he had also separetely from his his high-end all tube set-up.

I've been informed by my audiphile friend about some forthcoming releases like the Beethoven Symphony 9 that might be released with the soloists at the center channel, the choir at the front, and the full orchestra encoded for rear-chanel only in DTS or even in 6.1 DTS Surround EX. But only an SACD player will play it (not even a DVD player can play it.

Right now I am consolidating all my high-end equipment for an 8-speaker connection in prepration for this SACD thing. I would like to hear what the stereo pundits have to say. Please direct me to the appropriate thread on this subject if there is one already. Thanks.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: rtsy on Jun 04, 2002 at 07:59 AM: --> Will these discs play on an ordinary
--> DVD player and can it be decoded
--> its 6 chan. audio out?

Your DVD player should specifically have analogue output DVD-A or SACD. Recent Pioneers have this already (636 and 838 plays only DVD-A though, 733a plays both DVD-A and multi-channel SACD). The PhP99k Sony DVP-S9000ES plays 2 channel SACD and not DVD-A.

Because of issues on copyright protection, record labels have colluded so manufacturers can only produce DVD-A and SACD players that DO NOT HAVE DIGITAL OUTPUTS that can then be decoded/processed off-board, i.e., a receiver or a pre-pro.

--> Will it have a regional coding or RCE
--> encoded on it?

Don't know if SACD or DVD-A hve regional encoding.

--> Will it play DTS or DD 5.1 audio as if it were like
--> movie audio?

If a DTS/DD track is included, then you should be able to play it. I doubt it though. The whole point of SACD and DVD-A is high resolutipon audio that takes up a lot of space on a disc (hence the need for the larger capacity DVD discs).

--> Is SACD format will be on only?

Come again? I got lost here. ;-)

--> on my Philips 860. And was told that it will
--> play on any DVD but only be decoded as an
--> ordinary CD audio unless using an DVD Audio
--> player,Is that true?

Most SACDs have the stereo track on the same disc. If your equipment cannot read the SACD/DVD-A track, you'll get the stereo. This is how equipment manufacturers make SACD bakcward compatible with Redbook CD.

--> was also told that an SACD player will
--> output stereo signal only(left and right)
--> not 6 chan audio, Is that true?

There is 2 channel SACD which outputs stereo only. There is also multi-channel SACD which outpits 5.1 (I think there is no SACD that outputs 6.1 or 7.1).

--> How come it has an optical and coaxial output?

Do you mean optical and coaxial DIGITAL output? Yes, SACD/DVD-A players would have digital outs so you can feed DD/DTS into your pre-pro/receiver.

--> Do we need another amplifier or
-->decoder for these medium to enjoy a 6 chan?

Re: amplifier...latter model receivers and all amplifiers with the right number of channels can take an analogue output from an SACD/DVD-A player. The decoding is done in the player. Absence of digital SACD/DVD-A output is meant to deter piracy. But it also means:

1--duplication of decoding/processing functionalities in both the source component and the pre-pro/receiver.

2--since source is at the same time required to have decoding/processing (e.g., bass management), and be at a reasonable price, SACD/DVD-A is often compromised.

The record companies and the manufacturers have to get their acts together. I think the copyright business model for record companies is obsolete in the digital realm. I don't have the answer but this is an issue we all must face.

Think of it this way, until the labels/eqpt manufacturers get their act together, we don't have to jump into the DVD-A/SACD wagon just yet, saving us $$$. ;-)
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: manila on Jun 11, 2002 at 08:04 AM: Quote from: lexmil on Jun 03, 2002 at 04:18 PM

To robertj, manila and all those discussing earleir on the pros and cons of having a separate HT and audio-only set-up, (I think we should have a searate thread on this, or is there already), I just want to get your opinion on this:

Once the SACD (SuperAudio CD) and DVD-Audio titles are released and, ofcourse, their players, out in the market, how will you reconcile 5.1 up to 7.1 channels of discretely encoded music with a 2-speaker hi-end audio set-up>

I've listened to concerts of Earl Klugh (The Jazz Channel label) and those of the Bee Gees, the Eagles, Kenny Logins etc, in 5.1 DD or and DTS (I have yet to get a symphoniy peformance, do you know of any?) and have noted the apparrent accoustical depth and sonic brilllance of these performances on an HT 6-speaker set-up versus a 2-speaker stereo only mode. (For one, the audience responses are at the rear speakers making me feel like being very close to the soundstage with the rest of the audience at the back.) I will not claim it is sonically superior to a 2-spkr high-end set-up (which I also have.) The listening experience, though, is just marvellosly satisfying. I can't recall having this experience on my father's 4-channel system that he had also separetely from his his high-end all tube set-up.

I've been informed by my audiphile friend about some forthcoming releases like the Beethoven Symphony 9 that might be released with the soloists at the center channel, the choir at the front, and the full orchestra encoded for rear-chanel only in DTS or even in 6.1 DTS Surround EX. But only an SACD player will play it (not even a DVD player can play it.

Right now I am consolidating all my high-end equipment for an 8-speaker connection in prepration for this SACD thing. I would like to hear what the stereo pundits have to say. Please direct me to the appropriate thread on this subject if there is one already. Thanks.

LEXMILL,
First of all, I haven't tried a SACD multichannel setup but from the reviews I have read over stereophile and internet journals, SACD sounds superior over the red book CD's whether it be 2 channel or multichannel setup.
There are a few things that needs to be pointed out. There is no "right" setup with this regard. It is the listener's preference that will rule the day. If you are happy with a multichannel setup and preferred your music coming from upfront and audience clapping from behind that is your preference and multichannel will win your day. But I know of the "die-hard" audiophiles that may stick to 2 channel setup even with SACD multichannel around. Here's why :
From my experience, a 2 channel setup has a more focused sound, if you are looking for the vocal depth and emotion, a "high end" setup will leave you grasping as the music sucks you in. Also, there is a "visually" pictured soundstage and imaging not quite as coherent as a multichannel setup.
With multichannel setup, what you are aiming for is excitement and a different type of emotional roller coaster where you are with the audience! With 2 channel setup, it is more like the artist is in the same room with you and you are not transported to another arena. It's more like a 1 on 1 with the artist in a 2 channel setup while you are there live with the artist in multichannel setup. Well the question is, will it be necessary if the recording is not a live recording where there are no clapping and audience present? I for one listen to jazz recordings and I prefer having the whole band and the artist upfront while im seated in my listening couch. It is superficial to hear (in a non-live recording) to hear bass guitar coming from behind or the sides and the vocals up front while the acoustic guitar is playing on the rear right.
There is also a drawback with multichannel setup. If you love high end audio, were talking Wilson Watt/Puppy, Dynaudio Evidence, JMLAB Utopias, SF Amati homage. These speakers cost P500k to P800k a pair, how much would one need to spend to attain a "high end" SACD multichannel setup of say 7 speakers? :)
My suggestion would be to wait a couple more years in the Philippines before you splash your hard earned cash with SACD/DVD-A multichannel setup because you never know 2 years time, SACD and DVD-A may become the next DAT or MD! :) My 2 cents on this issue.

Manila
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: rosetatoo on Jun 11, 2002 at 11:12 AM: Hi Lexmil,

It shouldn't be a problem or dilemna integrating your HT and high-end audio set-up, and both can benefit from the technologies of either.

In my case, though my system is not high-end, I switch between 5.1 for movie and plain stereo for music. Some musical materials on CD sound more localized on 5.1 so I just switch to whatever mode gives me more listening pleasure. CD recordings of non-live jazz and pop music sound perfectly OK on plain stereo. But I must confess some symphonic readings appear to sound cleaner, deeper and more expansive on 5.1. I am refering to the My Fair Lady soundtrack on CD and the remastered DVD issue. It seems the remastering on DVD has given more depth and expanse to the music on the film than the music-only soundtrack CD release. Then again, that's my perception.

So Lexmil, my unsolicited adivce is for you to retain your high-end speakers for the front and your HT speakers for the surrounds on an 8-speaker set-up. Then, if your HT AV receiver has a main amp-out, use your high-end main amps for the front instead. I think that way you can enjoy both worlds. Hope I was of help. What do you think, audiophiles out there.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: lexmil on Jun 14, 2002 at 01:29 PM: Thanks Manila,

I don't mnd waiting for another year or so, I'm new to DVD anyway. And still saving-up for an upgrade to high-end.

Let me just offer my 2 cents also, Manila.

I've been an audiophile for the last 20 years and glued to 2-speaker set-ups until about 7 years ago when I started w/ my first pro-logic amp. Yes, you are right, I may be looking for something exciting in the Hi-Fi world and this 5.1 phenomenon seems to promise a lot in this direction.

I strongly believe that advances made in Hi-Fi is aimed at providing the serious listener (aka audiophile) a faithful or realistic reproduciton of a performance at home. The more faithful, the better. And being an audiophile means a lover of sunds. Not just music. I remember the acclaim given to the masterful reproduction of 18th century canon shots on Sir Lorin Maazel's reading of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture on Telarc. It appears that hi-fi not only means reproducting Ella Fitzerald singing but also canon shots!!

Surely, a jazz ensemble or a classical quintet sounds excellent on 2-spkr stereo. But faithfully reproducing the howling winds of a tornado as in the movie TWISTER or the sounds of gunfire coming from all directions in a war like SAVING PRIVATE RYAN may just require a more elaborate set-up for them to be realistically convincing. And I can't wait to hear a choral symphony like the Beethoven 9th played with the soloists in the center , the choir at the front and the orchestra at the back. That maybe superfluous like you said, after all, you don't listen to a performance like that in the middle of the stage. But you see, you don't get the sounds just from the front either anyway, but from reflections coming from all directions. And I think that's where the 5.1 or 7.1 hi-fi set-up can do its job, more realistically than is possible with 2 speakers.

And for me, putting reality right in your room is what hi-fi is about.

Am I making sense here. Anyway, your point about investing half-a-million per speaker pair in a high-end audio really makes quite an argument against this 5.1. But I guess if a moneyed high--ender is convinced about 5.1, what's another million or so to upgrade say a P2-3 M high-end set-up?

What do you think.

To Rosetatoo, let's discuss after my meeting in the office. See my email. And correction, I don't have a high-end set-up but is gearing up for that. Which is why I posted this question for a 5.1 high-end set-up. And my budget is only a measely P1M, hopefully getting there by Christmas. This year.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: manila on Jun 14, 2002 at 09:45 PM: Dear Lexmil,
You are completely correct with audiophile loving the accuracy of even canon shots but my explanation only concerned DVD-Audio/SACD and not movies as per Saving Private Ryan etc.
The question I guess is whether it is worth the effort or is it really better multichannel vs 2 channel. My answer would be it is neither! It is to the listeners preference which setup he prefers and if the budget is not a constraint then why not? Having a multichannel setup can also be configured to 2 channel setup but not vice versa so in a way if one have a multichannel setup then it's all good! My answer only pertains to audio only and not audio/video setup. Hope we don't get confused users thinking I prefer 2 channel for movies! :)

Manila
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: levi on Jun 15, 2002 at 04:29 AM: One million budget? WOW!!!! Ang daming wharfedale speakers yon!!!!!

Quote from: lexmil on Jun 14, 2002 at 01:29 PM
Thanks Manila,

To Rosetatoo, let's discuss after my meeting in the office. See my email. And correction, I don't have a high-end set-up but is gearing up for that. Which is why I posted this question for a 5.1 high-end set-up. And my budget is only a measely P1M, hopefully getting there by Christmas. This year.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: voj on Jun 15, 2002 at 05:54 PM: Quote from: levi on Jun 15, 2002 at 04:29 AM

One million budget? WOW!!!! Ang daming wharfedale speakers yon!!!!!

Quote from: lexmil on Jun 14, 2002 at 01:29 PM

Thanks Manila,

To Rosetatoo, let's discuss after my meeting in the office. See my email. And correction, I don't have a high-end set-up but is gearing up for that. Which is why I posted this question for a 5.1 high-end set-up. And my budget is only a measely P1M, hopefully getting there by Christmas. This year.

Nice one, Levi.! :D

Oh, if I had a million... things and stuff I could do with it. I'll probably upgrade my system and still have enough to buy a car. Oh well, to each his own. 8)

voj :)
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Racio on Jun 15, 2002 at 06:36 PM: Quote from: levi on Jun 15, 2002 at 04:29 AM
One million budget? WOW!!!! Ang daming wharfedale speakers yon!!!!!
LOL hahahaha!!!!! ;D

Quote from: lexmil on Jun 14, 2002 at 01:29 PM

To Rosetatoo, let's discuss after my meeting in the office. See my email. And correction, I don't have a high-end set-up but is gearing up for that. Which is why I posted this question for a 5.1 high-end set-up. And my budget is only a measely P1M, hopefully getting there by Christmas. This year.
http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm (http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm)
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: aikon on Jun 16, 2002 at 11:28 PM: Quote from: levi on Jun 15, 2002 at 04:29 AM
One million budget? WOW!!!! Ang daming wharfedale speakers yon!!!!!

WOW!!! :o

Quote from: Racio on Jun 15, 2002 at 06:36 PM
Quote from: lexmil on Jun 14, 2002 at 01:29 PM
To Rosetatoo, let's discuss after my meeting in the office. See my email. And correction, I don't have a high-end set-up but is gearing up for that. Which is why I posted this question for a 5.1 high-end set-up. And my budget is only a measely P1M, hopefully getting there by Christmas. This year.

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm (http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm)

troll? ???
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: espace on Jun 17, 2002 at 08:45 AM: Quote from: lexmil on Jun 14, 2002 at 01:29 PM
... my budget is only a measely P1M, hopefully getting there by Christmas. This year.

Hi lexmil! ;D

This really piques my curiosity. As there are several ways to skin a cat, I'm genuinely interested in what kind of set up one would get at this price.

Do you mind posting your intended set-up on the What is Your Next Upgrade? (http://www.pinoydvd.com/yabbse/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=1809) thread?

This would benefit forum members like myself, who are always in the market for reasonable upgrades.

Thanks.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: PARC on Jun 17, 2002 at 09:14 AM: Quote from: levi on Jun 15, 2002 at 04:29 AM
One million budget? WOW!!!! Ang daming wharfedale speakers yon!!!!!

Hahahahahahahah! Sana may matira kang pang bili ng gatas ng anak mo. ;D

If I have that much money, I'll probably won't be telling people about it. ::) ;) And also much better buy a PC for my home instead of using the Office PC. Well with a million bucks to burn why work if you can retire and put up a business? ;D

PARC
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: weddingsingr on Jun 17, 2002 at 10:30 AM: Quote from: vojdiaz on Jun 15, 2002 at 05:54 PM

Nice one, Levi.! :D

Oh, if I had a million... things and stuff I could do with it. I'll probably upgrade my system and still have enough to buy a car. Oh well, to each his own. 8)

voj :)

Ako ibibili ko ng Rolex Oyster Perpetua. Teka, lagpas ata iyon sa 1M.

O sige, uubusin ko na lang sa DVD, tutal imposible naman na manalo ako ng free 2,000 titles sa Amazon na free shipping.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Paltik on Jun 18, 2002 at 02:02 AM: teka teka , have i seen the past 7 posters somewhere? ??? parang ah ::). oh well, maybe its just the sound of ONE MILLION BUCKS making me delirious . 10 years ko kailangan ipunin yun ah ;) . hehe peace preg..., este .... :P
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: weddingsingr on Jun 18, 2002 at 10:40 AM: Para hindi naman lumalayo gaano sa topic, with 1M, bibili na talaga ako ng DVD Audio Player at SACD Player.

Bibibli na rin ako ng spare bulbs sa Infocus - mga 5 siguro para good for 10,000 hours. Since maraming mga still shots sa DVD Audio, eh di parang may malaking painting sa room ko with the Infocus.

1/2M will be allocated for my electric bill - pang kontra sa PPA - hindi biro ang Meralco bill mo kapag may 2HP aircon ka, 350Watts na Infocus, at may HT ka pa.

Yuong tira eh pambili ng mga bala ng DVD Audio at SACD with the biggest chunk of the 1M to be used to pay my electric bill - laban kontra sa PPA.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: lexmil on Jun 18, 2002 at 11:48 AM: To all you guys,

I didn't know that one liner would stir up so much reaction. Sorry there.

You're all correct, that P1M would be better off buying a lot more sensible stuff than this hobby of ours. But guys I'm just allocating a paper budget. I remember in 1996 when I started getting a prologic set-up, I allocated P200T for my paper budget a year earlier. And I ended up spending less than half of that (together with other components) in reality

I did some recent math and so far the budget gives a lot of buffer. Just for your info the budget breakdown is as follows:

SACD player: US$1,000
DVD-audio player: US$1,000
HT Preamp/decoder: US$2,000
5 ch Main amp: US$2,500
5 speakers: US$4,000
Active Sub-woofer: US$1,800
16:9 TV: US$2,000

TOTAL: US14,300 or about Php730,000
TV/Audio racK: Php20,000

The buffer should take care of any incidentals like taxes, shipping, or bribes if needed, plus some SACD/DVD titles and cables. I arrived at the P1M budget last February based on prices at that time and I see them going down. And hopefully the prices will still go down by end of this year.

I still am not settled with any particular brand, though Krell amps, Mirage speakers and Rel Storm are very attractive. And if I can get good second hands, why not. If you guys have a cheaper or better alternative, I am most open to suggestion. Thanks.

PS. To Moderator, perhaps you may want to repost this to the right thread. Thanks.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: alfred on Jun 18, 2002 at 12:03 PM: OT

Quote from: lexmil on Jun 18, 2002 at 11:48 AM

I didn't know that one liner would stir up so much reaction. Sorry there.

Pre,

Don't mind them. Basta tayo friends. Ako din during my pro-logic purchase may mga DD na. Kaya lang mga 45T + ang price. No wonder noon nag-compute ako umabot ng 300T for upgrade. Kaya tiis muna. But now the prices are more affordable. Maybe because my paycheck increased or talagang nag-lower sila ng price.

P.S.
Tirang mo lang ako ng mga P200,000 for my toshiba HDTV. Thanks ;)
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: lexmil on Jun 18, 2002 at 01:10 PM: Hi Manila,

Thanks for your response. Yes, I hope I didn't confuse anyone here regarding your preference. What I was driving at was being an audiophile in a combined audio/video set-up where the sounds come from 5.1 channels. I know you can switch to 2-ch from 5.1 and you're right, it's the listener's preference that will rule which way to go.

Let me just relate to you another experience I got from this 5.1 set-up. After borrwoing a colleague's My Fair Lady DVD, I went out last week to get one myself. That's bcause, the sound remastered on DD5.1 seems to have more spatial ambiance and better balance between the vocals and the orchestra than what I heard from the 2-ch soundtrack CD of the same title I've had for many years now. It was refreshing, to say the least. After hearing this, I may have little reason to go back to the CD soundtrack again.

So if this is any indication, I really look forward to owning SACD and DVD-audio titles. And since, according to an article in this thread, I would have the choice of either 2 ch or 5.1 ch, well and good. I can have the best of both worlds, don't you think?

Hi alfred,

Thanks for your sympathetic note. Is P200,000 the going rate for a Toshiba HDTV? Then I think I'm underbudget for the 16:9 TV. Sorry, there goes your P200,000.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: levi on Jun 18, 2002 at 01:35 PM: Lexmil.

No need to repost, you are discussing your plans for a new SACD/DVD Audio player.

I suggest you buy it locally than importing. Local distributors can give you warranty. I can ask the distributor to contact you, just post or PM your contact number. I guess they are more than willing to assist you with your big budget. You can start auditioning gears now and you can post at assorted buy and sell topic the things you want to buy, there might be individuals or stores that have the brands your interested. Just my 1 cent
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Thames on Jun 18, 2002 at 01:51 PM: hey lexmill,

i think levi is right, buying locally will save you time and money. And of course pag dito ka bumili may warranty.
And its nice to know from PROMAC youll be having a BIG upgrade, and i guess with that budget you wont need to borrow a P500(My fair lady) worth of dvd from your friend and wont be picky in buying pirated dvds (j/k)
BTW the 57" HDTV (widescreen) TOSHIBA is about 175k at Listening Room in Megamall

thames
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: PARC on Jun 18, 2002 at 01:56 PM: Quote from: Paltik on Jun 18, 2002 at 02:02 AM

teka teka , have i seen the past 7 posters somewhere? ??? parang ah ::).

Hehehehehehheheh 8)

PARC
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: lexmil on Jun 18, 2002 at 04:22 PM: Thanks for your advice, Levi et al. Those prices I have are my guides and hopefully, I can source most of them here, expecially the speakers and the TV.

Thames,

Thanks for the price info on the HDTV. Now I'm sure my US$2,000 for a TV is underbudget.

And that's why I will continue getting and being picky about pirated DVDs and borrowing discs I didn't know was only P500. Over a span of 2 months since I got this Promac, my first DVD player, I now have about 100 p-discs and growing. Imagine if I got them all from Astrovision, how can I save uo? Maybe there'll be pirated SACDs and DVD-As soon. (Sorry moderator, for sounding like i'm espousing pirates, just my reply)
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: espace on Jun 18, 2002 at 04:30 PM: Quote from: lexmil on Jun 18, 2002 at 11:48 AM
To all you guys,

I didn't know that one liner would stir up so much reaction. Sorry there.

You're all correct, that P1M would be better off buying a lot more sensible stuff than this hobby of ours. But guys I'm just allocating a paper budget. ...

Hi lexmil! ;D

The reaction elicited was more of amazement than anything else. Apologies are unnecessary.

There will always be better ways to spend your money, but like audio and HT, spending your money is highly subjective and quite personal.

Since you say it's a paper budget, then by all means, do the exercise necessary to fulfill this. That way when the funds become available, you've fine tuned your decision making process.

Quote from: lexmil on Jun 18, 2002 at 11:48 AM
I did some recent math and so far the budget gives a lot of buffer. Just for your info the budget breakdown is as follows:

SACD player: US$1,000
DVD-audio player: US$1,000
HT Preamp/decoder: US$2,000
5 ch Main amp: US$2,500
5 speakers: US$4,000
Active Sub-woofer: US$1,800
16:9 TV: US$2,000

TOTAL: US14,300 or about Php730,000
TV/Audio racK: Php20,000

Seems like you've got a basic list with allocations to match. Nice work lexmil! ;D

It really piques my curiosity when people announce, as you did, spending certain amounts for something. You see, in my case, I work the other way around. I look at things I like and figure later on if I can afford it. I don't really set a budget for any expense of a major or capital nature. It's more like I fit my funds into what I can get, try to get as much value for money and do so quietly. But that's just me... that's my approach.

Quote from: lexmil on Jun 18, 2002 at 11:48 AM
I still am not settled with any particular brand, though Krell amps, Mirage speakers and Rel Storm are very attractive. And if I can get good second hands, why not. If you guys have a cheaper or better alternative, I am most open to suggestion. ...

Keep an open mind, maximize your options. You may find out that the cost-effectiveness of a miniscule percentage improvement may cost too much and even be fleeting in nature. As you've mentioned your audiophile experience in previous posts, draw on that as well as those of the members of this forum. There is quite a wealth of information available on this and similar sites, it's just a matter of asking or a little diligent reading.

Cheers lexmil! ;D Let us know when your enviable situation materializes!
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: manila on Jun 18, 2002 at 06:36 PM: Quote from: PARC on Jun 17, 2002 at 09:14 AM

Quote from: levi on Jun 15, 2002 at 04:29 AM

One million budget? WOW!!!! Ang daming wharfedale speakers yon!!!!!

Hahahahahahahah! Sana may matira kang pang bili ng gatas ng anak mo. ;D

If I have that much money, I'll probably won't be telling people about it. ::) ;) And also much better buy a PC for my home instead of using the Office PC. Well with a million bucks to burn why work if you can retire and put up a business? ;D

PARC

TO PARC,
KUNG MAY P1M ako, I WILL BUY ALL THE AUDIOPHILE CD'S THAT YOU SELL! :) :)

TO LEVI,
SHOULD WE CHANGE THE TOPIC TO HOW TO SPEND P1M rather than DVD Audio/SACD??? Parati na tayo naiiba sa usapan ah? :)

Manila
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Sen.Almondski on Jun 18, 2002 at 10:28 PM: Hi Manila,

I think the topic "how to spend million of peso or $ "is already existing thread somewhre else. Still off topic, Dont get intimidate by other members , just keep the good discussion of high end HT hardwares and allocating huge budget on it, its nothing unusual, unless they will put in the board rules of limiting your budget not to reach 1 million during discussion ;D

;) almondski
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: levi on Jun 19, 2002 at 02:10 AM: To avoid being off topic, I reposted at What is Your Next Upgrade? (http://www.pinoydvd.com/yabbse/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=1809) the million budget for HT. I think its a good discussion but its more appropriate there. I will also repost the recent postings.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: lexmil on Jun 19, 2002 at 12:45 PM: will respond to the thread where reposted. thanks
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: rtsy on Jun 19, 2002 at 01:56 PM: PARC,

what are the audiophile cd's you sell?
can you post or email titles and prices?
have you a store i can visit?
thanks!

Quote from: manila on Jun 18, 2002 at 06:36 PM

Quote from: PARC on Jun 17, 2002 at 09:14 AM

Quote from: levi on Jun 15, 2002 at 04:29 AM

One million budget? WOW!!!! Ang daming wharfedale speakers yon!!!!!

Hahahahahahahah! Sana may matira kang pang bili ng gatas ng anak mo. ;D

If I have that much money, I'll probably won't be telling people about it. ::) ;) And also much better buy a PC for my home instead of using the Office PC. Well with a million bucks to burn why work if you can retire and put up a business? ;D

PARC

TO PARC,
KUNG MAY P1M ako, I WILL BUY ALL THE AUDIOPHILE CD'S THAT YOU SELL! :) :)

TO LEVI,
SHOULD WE CHANGE THE TOPIC TO HOW TO SPEND P1M rather than DVD Audio/SACD??? Parati na tayo naiiba sa usapan ah? :)

Manila
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: benny on Sep 16, 2002 at 01:35 AM: Reposting:

Quote from: s0lid on Sep 13, 2002 at 01:31 AM
hello guys may question lang ako about dvd audio. kaylangan pa ba ng different hardware to play it? or pwede na yung dvd player and dvd rom? may advantage ba kung dvd audio player gamitin ko for dvd audio disc?

Quote from: downtown on Sep 13, 2002 at 08:20 AM
s0lid,
DVD audio needs a dvd audio player to get the most out of it. But some DVD audio discs also contain a DD5.1 sometimes DTS track but this is inferior.

Quote from: qwerty765 on Sep 15, 2002 at 01:12 PM
You'll be needing a DVD-A player to be able to appreciate the difference in sound quality, iba kasi ang compression ng DVD-A as compared to a video DVD. Pero most of the time, they include a separate track for DD5.1 para ma play din sya sa ordinary DVD player. Before buying, check the disc first if it has DD5.1 track so you can play it in an ordinary DVD player.

OK din naman yung sound sa DD5.1 compared sa CD, pero sa tingin ko OK lang sya kung classical or concert yung papakinggan. I only have one DVD-A, it's too expensive kasi, sinubukan ko lang yung difference sa CD.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: mYKi on Sep 17, 2002 at 08:32 AM: Haha. Ang weird ng thread na ito ha... dapat siguro ang subject is "The Million Peso Man".

Anyway, I wish I had that much to spend coz I NEED a 52" plasma TV. :-)

As for DVD-Audio, I just upgraded my DVD player (thanks THX7.1) and I'm soooo happy with DVD-Audio.

Also, they only cost P550 now so it's just slightly more expensive than regular CDs. Even cheaper than some imprted CDs! You can play it even if you only have a regular DVD player but only using the Dolby Digital or DTS tracks. BUT, it will not sound as great as the hi-resolution DVD-A tracks.

Imagine multi-channel, but with each speaker outputting in hi-resolution. Yum!

Aside from multichannel hi-res (96khz/24-bit), most DVD-A's have a stereo hi-res track (either 96/24 or 192/24) but I definitely prefer the 5.1 tracks.

If you see stores that sell DVD-A's please post it here. So far, malapit ng maubos yung sa Odyssey mega mall, Music One, O at Rockwell, Music One Quezon Ave. I'm looking out for Aaron Neville and Bjork. Coming out next month are DVD-As from Madonna as well as yung Reanimation of Linkin Park. Can't wait!!! :P
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: old_age on Oct 01, 2002 at 08:56 AM: Try buying Blue Man Group DVD-A entitled Audio. It has great sound and channel separation, naka-dts pa and playable on all dvd players. single disc with two-sides. I bought this because of the praise received on the internet and it's true! I ordered it thru our fellow pinoydvd member Benny, in 4 days lang andyan na.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: greatbop on Oct 02, 2002 at 12:01 AM: For 1M? im getting a pair of BW 800s, baby!!! (Flagship)... or 2 pair os 802s...
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: old_age on Oct 02, 2002 at 10:46 AM: Myki

Try Image at Harizon Plaza, they have lots of DVD-A there at very reasonable prices. I saw aaron neville there two weeks ago. Just try your luck.

happy listening!
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: mYKi on Oct 02, 2002 at 11:09 AM: New Age,

Thanks for the tip. Would you remember how much the Aaron Neville was? Also, would you happen to know their phone number? KUng hindi, I'll just ask 114.

Thanks.

Myki
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: old_age on Oct 02, 2002 at 12:33 PM: Myki

yung prices ng DVD-A nila ranges from P550-P730 only. Their telephone no. is 522-34-93. ;D
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: mYKi on Oct 02, 2002 at 12:44 PM: Thanks. I just called them but the girl wasn't too helpful. She told me that they didn't have DVD-Audio discs, but then I told her that someone told me that they did... so she said, ah meron, pero maraming titles so hindi ko alam yung neville eh.

So I guess I'll try going there soon.

Myki
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: old_age on Oct 02, 2002 at 12:50 PM: Myki

Image opens at 10:30 am up to 8pm including sundays. It is just beside McDonald's. They have plenty of AV gear there and you may look for Arman or Toto to assist you. They also have great DVD-V titles inside their office, ask Arman or Toto for it so they can accompany you inside the office. Ang dami talagang DVD-V all original and REgion 1.
Title: News: Manufacturers push CD replacements
Post by: MeowPao on Oct 14, 2002 at 10:14 AM: Manufacturers push CD replacements
(http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/10/13/nextphase.audio.ap/index.html)

NEW YORK (AP) -- First, vinyl records were relegated to the nostalgia pile. Now, CDs may be headed for the same fate.

Over the last couple of years, manufacturers and record companies have rolled out two new musical formats -- DVD-Audio and Super Audio Compact Discs (SACDs) -- that they hope will replace the CD.

"It's really getting rolling. The number of titles is increasing rapidly," says John Trickett, chairman of the 5.1 Entertainment Group, which has produced almost 100 DVD-Audio titles. "If you compare it to the launch of the CD ... It's actually following the same pattern, but actually a lot faster."

SACDs and DVD-Audios, when coupled with the right speakers, sound superior to regular CDs. Parts of a recording that were buried in layers of music -- a drumbeat, an extra guitar, perhaps some backup vocals -- are now revealed, crystal clear.

Yet the new formats require an investment from consumers -- many of whom seem satisfied with CD sound and have not even heard of SACDs or DVD-Audios. While the new discs cost about the same as a CD, or a tad pricier -- about $19 -- you'd likely need to upgrade your entertainment system to hear their advantage.

"Most people aren't looking for a multichannel experience. They are just looking for a convenient, good-sounding, inexpensive format," says Jon Iverson of Stereophile magazine.

More data
Both DVD-Audio and SACDs can hold several times the data contained on regular CDs. They are also multichannel (surround sound), instead of the two-channel (stereo) CDs. (Some SACDs are two-channel, made to enhance stereo sound.)

Jazz great Dave Brubeck recently heard a remastered SACD version of his classic album "Time Out." The difference, he said, was startling.

"Nobody was even aware that there were limitations -- now you can really hear that before you weren't hearing anything," says Brubeck. "You can hear the individual instruments better, and in a more natural way, as if you were hearing them live."

That might sound similar to what consumers were told back when CDs came along.

But Iverson says that CDs, while more convenient and durable than vinyl, were actually found by many audiophiles to be inferior in sound.

"A good vinyl setup will get you a little better to the real performance than a compact disc set up," says Iverson, and DVD-Audio and SACDs are "certainly a better sounding format than CDs."

David Kawakami, director of the SACD project at Sony, which pioneered the format along with Philips, says, "if you talk to the man on the street, I think most people would say the CD is fine.

"But there has always been a portion of the marketplace that ... has found the CD lacking in certain respects. The things that they say we sacrificed when we transferred from vinyl to CD are things like warmth and the ability to record air around the instruments."

Kawakami calls SACD "basically a three-dimensional experience. Music has depth, width and height, and just as if you're sitting in a concert hall, you're hearing music not only coming directly at you but coming to you ... it's also ricocheting off the walls."

Bonus features
The sound of DVD-audio is comparable to that of SACDs, and the format offers bonus features similar to DVD videos. Listeners might watch videos, for example, or sing along to lyrics that flash on the TV screen.

An added bonus for record companies and retailers, who are engaged in a battle against piracy, is that the relative complexity of DVD-Audios and SACDs makes them much harder to copy. At the same time, that might turn some consumers off the format.

"Both incorporate watermarking, which means ultimately the record companies can control how you use the disc," Iverson says.

It's also unclear whether listeners will pay extra for the high-quality sound and bonus material.

The two formats began hitting the market about three years ago, aimed chiefly at audiophiles -- people willing to spend $5,000 and more for a system that could replicate that perfect sound.

Today, DVD-Audio discs play in any DVD player. But to experience the 5.1 surround sound, an entertainment system consisting of five speakers and a subwoofer is needed. Costs have come down, but a bare-bones, no-name brand will cost at least $200.

Most SACDs can only be played in SACD players. Sony offers bargain SACD players that also play DVD videos for about $300. Those players don't let listeners hear DVD-Audios' enhanced sound, because it is a competing technology. (The new players do play CDs, so listeners don't have to upgrade their entire music library.)

A format war
"The unfortunate thing is, instead of coming up with the next audio format, we ended up with two competing formats," Iverson says. "A format war of course is never really good for anyone until it's over."

Another drawback: Unlike CDs and MP3s, which you can play just about anywhere, DVD-Audio and SACDs don't have that portability. Cars, portable CD players or boomboxes don't have the technology to play them yet.

To achieve the ultimate sound experience, you have to be in the middle of the speakers.

If you are just sitting and listening, "it's pretty amazing," says JR Richards of the rock group Dishwalla, whose latest album, "Opaline," was released in DVD-Audio.

But "if you're working around the house, then it (the enhanced sound) doesn't really matter."

So far, there are about 300 albums available in DVD-Audio and about 450 in SACD -- a minuscule amount of the thousands of CDs released each year. Sony Music Group and Universal Music Group have backed the SACD format, while Warner Music Group has backed DVD-Audio.

While many of the early releases were classical or jazz, contemporary albums have been added: Faith Hill's upcoming disc will be in DVD-Audio format as well as CD, for example, and the Rolling Stones' catalog was recently rereleased on SACD (a hybrid SACD, actually, which can be played on either a CD or SACD player).

Iverson says it will take more must-have catalog releases before consumers start replacing CDs with the new formats in mass quantities.

He recalled a recent trip to the record store where he spent a half-hour explaining to the store's personnel what SACD and DVD-Audio was.

"Educating the public is a key issue here for these formats to become more successful," Iverson says, "and I don't really see people making a big effort in this regard."

But proponents say it took the CD format years to make real inroads among consumers.

Producer Frank Filipetti, who has remixed albums for the SACD format, says all it will take is a listen for the new formats to catch on.

"Once they hear the multichannel version," he says, "they can't get over it."
Title: Re:News: Manufacturers push CD replacements
Post by: greatbop on Oct 14, 2002 at 01:33 PM: yeah... i myself am just waiting for sacd/ dvd-audio player to come down to around 200 usd levels..

not to mention sacd/ dvd-audios that you acctually wanna listen to.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Wiggum on Mar 03, 2003 at 10:37 PM: To anyone out there,

Do you know where I can buy SACDs here in the Philippines and how much they cost? I've tried most of the popular stores (Astroplus, Podium) but they only sell DVD-As. Just want to try it out. I use a Sony DAV-S550.

Thanks.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: mYKi on Mar 03, 2003 at 11:13 PM: Octo1,

I saw lots of SACD's at Ceratec, level 5, Bldg A, SM Megamall.

Try Upscale Audio as well, same level, Bldg. B

myki
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Wiggum on Mar 04, 2003 at 08:11 AM: Myki,

Many thanks for the info! Will do.

Octo1
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: slowhand on Mar 05, 2003 at 04:37 PM: Got two more DVD-A's -- Fourplay and Linda Ronstadt :) :)

This was at Astroplus at Podium. Saw Linkin Park there, for those looking for it (I think someone mentioned looking for this earlier).
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: bently on Mar 13, 2003 at 01:57 PM: not sure if this has been discussed, but i came across an article that sony is making their new hybrid sacd playable in any cd player, thus making it backward compatible. :)

bestbuy.com (http://www.bestbuy.com/MandM/ProductInfo.asp?ST=11211650&m=254) has the THE POLICE: Every Breath You Take: The Classics HYBRID SACD on sale for only $12 w/ free shipping in the US. :)
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: mYKi on Mar 13, 2003 at 08:34 PM: bently, actually, matagal ng hybrid ang maraming SACDs... :-)

but the new news is that DVD-A are starting to make hybrid ones that allow a person to play a DVD-A either in a DVD-A player, regular DVD, or a CD.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: tuff_u_gong on Mar 16, 2003 at 09:33 PM: Quote from: mYKi on Mar 13, 2003 at 08:34 PM
bently, actually, matagal ng hybrid ang maraming SACDs... :-)

but the new news is that DVD-A are starting to make hybrid ones that allow a person to play a DVD-A either in a DVD-A player, regular DVD, or a CD.

anyone know why tower/music 1 pulled out their DVD-A
discs? are they due to release the hybrids soon?
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: mYKi on Mar 17, 2003 at 12:12 AM: tuff_u_gong,

i have no idea why but they have lots of DVD-A's at AstroPlus in Podium.

That's where I got my Faith Hill DVD-A which I was trying to order at both Odyssey and Music 1 mega mall.

Check them out when you're in the area. P550 rin lahat.
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: tuff_u_gong on Mar 17, 2003 at 03:32 PM: thanks myki!

can you refer me to a website that has a directory
of available SACDs and DVD-Audio titles?

thanks!
Title: Re:News: Manufacturers push CD replacements
Post by: rtsy on Mar 18, 2003 at 09:46 AM: Quote from: greatbop on Oct 14, 2002 at 01:33 PM
yeah... i myself am just waiting for sacd/ dvd-audio player to come down to around 200 usd levels..

not to mention sacd/ dvd-audios that you acctually wanna listen to.

Even when SACD players are at US$200, how about hte software? I have yet to see a single disc below PhP1k. :'(
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: mYKi on Mar 18, 2003 at 01:01 PM: Locally available DVD-A's are all from Warner Music Group and most are manufactured in Germany.

Check out www.dvdaudiopreview.com which contains all of the Warner titles.

I recommend:

Alanis Morissette
Under Rug Swept

Eric Clapton & B.B. King
Riding with the King

Miles Davis
Tutu

Eagles
Hotel California

Donald Fagen
The Nightfly

Fleetwood Mac
Rumours

Faith Hill
Cry

Linkin Park
Reanimation

Natalie Merchant
Tigerlily
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Eulogy on Mar 19, 2003 at 02:12 AM: I have a cd player that is almost 8 years old. Will Sony DVP-NS705V do a good job replacing it?

Does someone know if its any good?
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: tuff_u_gong on Mar 21, 2003 at 10:24 AM: is there a PC soundcard that decodes SACD already?

thanks!
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: bunkieboy on Mar 26, 2003 at 11:25 PM: Quote from: mYKi on Mar 18, 2003 at 01:01 PM
Locally available DVD-A's are all from Warner Music Group and most are manufactured in Germany.

Check out www.dvdaudiopreview.com which contains all of the Warner titles.

I recommend:

Alanis Morissette
Under Rug Swept

Eric Clapton & B.B. King
Riding with the King

Miles Davis
Tutu

Eagles
Hotel California

Donald Fagen
The Nightfly

Fleetwood Mac
Rumours

Faith Hill
Cry

Linkin Park
Reanimation

Natalie Merchant
Tigerlily

where can i get these?
Title: Re:DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: mYKi on Mar 27, 2003 at 06:41 AM: bunkieboy,

Most complete place to find these are at Odyssey megamall and at Astroplus Podium.

Music one used to have DVD-As but I don't see anymore.

I recently purchased:

Linda Ronstadt and Pat Metheny Group.

Both are recommended as well. :-)

Myki
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: audioslave on Nov 12, 2004 at 01:11 PM: can anyone post here the stores selling SACDs?

Tower Records
Montage

please add if you know of any other stores

thanks
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: mYKi on Nov 12, 2004 at 01:18 PM: Tower Records
Montage
Astroplus, Podium
Astroplus, Megamall
Megamixx (?) - Store beside Astroplus, Megamall
Fully Booked, Rockwell
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Philander on Nov 12, 2004 at 01:37 PM: Check this:

Quote from: Philander on Jun 08, 2004 at 04:51 PM

AstroPlus Podium - SACDs, XRCDs, few DVD-Audio
Montage Greenbelt 4 – tons of SACDs, DVD-Audio
The O Powerplant – SACDs, DVD-Audio
Tower Records Glorietta – Chesky’s SACDs, Sony/Columbia/Epic SACDs
Megamixx Megamall – DVD-Audio, SACD
Fully Booked Powerplant – SACD, DVD-Audio
Odyssey XL Megamall – DVD-Audio, few Chesky's SACD
Astroplus Megamall – SACD, XRCD
Music One – few DVD-Audio, Chesky's SACD
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: odyopayl on Nov 12, 2004 at 03:54 PM: Quote from: mYKi on Nov 12, 2004 at 01:18 PM

Megamixx (?) - Store beside Astroplus, Megamall

Megamixx (?) They sell very expensive! WHY? better go to Astroplus same item for less!!!
[/font][/color]
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: levi on May 12, 2005 at 02:23 AM: I was informed that there might be a craze... a sale of DVDA, XRCD, SACD and some audiophile CD's for a real bargain price. Watch out for it! Lets hope this pushes through!
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: odyopayl on May 12, 2005 at 05:02 PM: Insert Quote
I was informed that there might be a craze... a sale of DVDA, XRCD, SACD and some audiophile CD's for a real bargain price. Watch out for it! Lets hope this pushes through!

===================================================================
Sir Levi can you post where & When? MAybe PM me hehehe! Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: Jairus on Jun 01, 2005 at 02:54 PM: I'm using a Sony DVP NS915 which can play DVD-R/RW, SACD. I've several SACD titles but haven't tried DVD-A. I'm not sure if this can play DVD-A though ???
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: av_phile1 on Jun 01, 2005 at 02:58 PM: I've well considered this model in the past to complement my DVD player that can play DVD-A, but not SACD. It's not a universal player. It can play SACD but not DVD-A.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: JT on Jun 01, 2005 at 03:28 PM: Quote from: Jairus on Jun 01, 2005 at 02:54 PM
I'm using a Sony DVP NS915 which can play DVD-R/RW, SACD. I've several SACD titles but haven't tried DVD-A. I'm not sure if this can play DVD-A though ???

You'll be able to play only the dolby digital audio track of the DVD-A.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: MAtZTER on Aug 24, 2005 at 11:50 AM: Quote from: Jairus on Jun 01, 2005 at 02:54 PM
I'm using a Sony DVP NS915 which can play DVD-R/RW, SACD. I've several SACD titles but haven't tried DVD-A. I'm not sure if this can play DVD-A though ???

I just read last night from a HT mag that Sony & Philips developed SACD. So their products dont support the competing DVDa format. I was wondering about this when I was looking at both these brand's SACD/DVDa capabilities.

Question guys, is SACD/DVDa better than going into tubes? I have begun to like audio listening lately so I am contemplating on a better audio setup. This week, I was thinking of having a dedicated CDP for better sound but thought "Why not just go into DVDa/SACD? Maybe the sound is better (?) "

TIA
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: av_phile1 on Aug 24, 2005 at 02:38 PM: Technically speaking both SACD and DVD-A formats are superior to any redbook CD.

BUT....

Home playback is so much a slave to how good the recorded information was made. It all boils down to how good the recording engineer did his job at capturing the performance then optimizing it for his medium of choice. Regardless of the media - whether LP, CD, SACD or DVD-A.

At about the time CD made its debut, LP recordings had reached its summit in terms of maximizing the potential of the medium, however flawed and susceptible to all the vagaries of analog encryption. Recording eingeers have long mastered the analog process for decades so that audiophile LP pressings made excellent sonic playback, with some still having no equal up to now. Some of the best analog recordings at the time were rarely duplicated in digital format.

It took another 5 years for recording engineers to maximize the potential of redbook CD. Many of the earlest CDs sounded aweful because their remastering engineers didn't know any better than to literally transcribe 70 microsecond equalized LP masters directly into CD. The result was shrill and bass-anemic CD titles - precisely how the LP sounded without the de-equalization done by phono preamps. Over-eager with the clinical cleanliness of the CD sound, engineers tried unsuccessfully to remaster old recordings with tape hiss by filtering out the hiss, in the process taking out the high frequency harmonics that made LP records more airy precisely because of these. The result - clean recordings without much realism or life. But they learned that the potential of the CD lies not in transcrbing old masters that already sounded excellent in LPs(though the later efforts proved quite successful especially in the new 24 bit remastering), but in capturing the performance digitally to begin with. These days, some of the finest recordings are there on CDs because the reoording engineers have learned over the years how to optimize the CD master.

And at about the same time the CD is reaching its maturity, we now get a new format called DVD-A and SACD which are technically superior in terms of resolving power. But there are titles that are no better than their CD titles. That's because transcribing a 16-bit 44.1khz digital master (often on tape) into 24-bit 192khz DVD-A will really not improve the sonics by any mathematical stretch. For the new format to achieve its potential, you have to start with capturing the performance at 24/192. Not just transcribing previous masters into higher resolution. Same with SACD. There is no way a 16-bit master remastered into SACD or DVD-A can sound superior. (however, remastering from 2-channel to 5.1 channel is another thing. Done correctly, it may not sound better, but more engaging and more detailed.)

There's another caveat here. No matter how powerful the resolving power of the recording, if the recording engineer is a nitwit, you still end up with a lousy recording. In whatever format. ;D

So personally, if you come across a truly excellent recording. Get it. If it's on LP. then get the finest turntable you can get. IF its a CD, then get the best CD player you can get. If it's a DVD-A or SACD, then get the best universal player or separate you can get. Lemons exist in all formats. As well as real gems. It would be a shame if you missed a great recording on one format because you prefer one over another. Having said that, I myself have cast my lots on digital. I have had 5 years of LP prior to my switch to digital. That's enough. There are so many titles on CDs that sound great by any standard. OTH, there are so few titles on DVD-A and SACD that my plans for a really great universal player can wait. I will certainly miss some of the great recordings on LP. But that's more a decision based on convenience. And in the hope that there will be new artists who will record those great classical performances in LP with better digital sonics in the future done by golden eared recording enigneers.

With all the titles in CD, you can never go wrong with a great dedicated CD player. But with the advances and refinements in DVD home playback systems that get in every year, the finest universal players for DVD-A and SACD can also sound great playing CDs. Online reviews talk about some Denon or Yamaha flagship universals that can shame some of the most expensive CD players like the Theta brand(which is said to be just a Pioneer Cd player rebadged and re-housed actually). Thanks to technology (and your wallet), you sometimes don't have to choose as you can have the best of all worlds in one neat package. ;D
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: aHobbit on Aug 24, 2005 at 03:28 PM: Quote from: av_phile1 on Aug 24, 2005 at 02:38 PM

So personally, if you come across a truly excellent recording. Get it. If it's on LP. then get the finest turntable you can get. IF its a CD, then get the best CD player you can get. If it's a DVD-A or SACD, then get the best universal player or separate you can get. Lemons exist in all formats. As well as real gems. It would be a shame if you missed a great recording on one format because you prefer one over another.

I just thought that in fact this should be the mode of audiophile really serious in listening to contents and reproduction. Some people try to put in a box altogether the LP in one box, the CD in one box, and then label each box as a whole. The loser is the person that did so, failing to capture the possibility of gems in whatever format. Of course, some people, for other reasons rather than sonics, decided just to maintain a single format.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: vision_of_love on Sep 14, 2005 at 03:29 AM: iba ba yung AUDIO DVD na nagagawa ng Audio DVD Creator(an application)(software) SA dvd-aUDIO?
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: odyopayl on Sep 14, 2005 at 08:14 AM: Quote from: vision_of_love on Sep 14, 2005 at 03:29 AM
iba ba yung AUDIO DVD na nagagawa ng Audio DVD Creator(an application)(software) SA dvd-aUDIO?

DVD-A software are the result of recording Engineer mixing in terms of multi-channel playback every channel is a discrete recording. DVD-A playback usually plays a resolution of 24/192 in 2 channel playback.

Any software transfering an Audio signal to DVD format in our computer doesn't guarantee better playback. (mine)
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: av_phile1 on Sep 14, 2005 at 09:44 AM: Quote from: vision_of_love on Sep 14, 2005 at 03:29 AM
iba ba yung AUDIO DVD na nagagawa ng Audio DVD Creator(an application)(software) SA dvd-aUDIO?

Yup. Magkaiba. Ibang-iba.

DVD-Audio cannot be hacked. Yet. Many audio dvd software out there simply rips the DVD's DD audio files into 2-channel stereo in wav, wma or mp3 formats whichever you set it. If you check the DVD file directory on a PC, these audio files are in the video-TS directory folder, multiplexed with the video files. Having a similar software, I think Audio DVD Creator simply creates video files (without the video part) containing multiplxed audio LPCM or DD files in the video_ts folder of a DVD.

There's another folder called the audio_TS folder which is empty in DVD-videos. That's where the real high resolution MLP-based DVD-Audio files are stored in DVD-Audio discs. No software can as yet rip these or create them in the audio_TS directory of a DVD medium. At least none that I know of for now.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: jerix on Sep 15, 2005 at 12:32 PM: Bro Av_phile1,

Considering your statement may I solicit your insight about the copy of the LES BROWN DVD-A i have with me, courtesy of a friend who is into this hobby of copying original CDs and DVDs.

The display of my player indicate the disc as DVD-AUDIO. The menu bares different audio options that includes DTS 5.1, DD 5.1 and MLP 5.1. These 3 audio options incredibly work fine in this disk, especially the MLP 5.1. the way i find it, as compared with the DTS and DD, the MLP has better signal separation and to my ears sounds more realistic and crispy. I made several backup copies of the disc but m wondering that the MLP 5.1 does not work. ::)
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: av_phile1 on Sep 15, 2005 at 02:04 PM: I don't really think you can back-up a DVD-A's MLP files. That's the same as ripping it. Perhaps there's a way. The Audio_TS folder in a DVD-A is just a directory. It can be copied. I'm just not sure if the copy will play. I'll try copying the Audio-TS folder one of these days and see what happens.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: jerix on Sep 16, 2005 at 06:40 AM: Thks for the reply bro -- whatever it is maybe, whether what im hearing is the real MLP or a fake one, that doesnt matter at all because im enjoyin it - this time i agree that innocence is bliss ;D
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: av_phile1 on Sep 17, 2005 at 12:38 PM: Quote from: av_phile1 on Sep 15, 2005 at 02:04 PM
I don't really think you can back-up a DVD-A's MLP files. That's the same as ripping it. Perhaps there's a way. The Audio_TS folder in a DVD-A is just a directory. It can be copied. I'm just not sure if the copy will play. I'll try copying the Audio-TS folder one of these days and see what happens.

Tried copying the Audio_TS folder to my hard disk. Some files can be copied, the AOB files refuse to be copied. So there.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: kt on Sep 21, 2005 at 02:26 PM: hi guys! can u help me how i can setup my dvd player (pioneer dv686a) & avr (marantz sr4500) for the dvd-a n sacds like connections n settings? tnx ???
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: av_phile1 on Sep 21, 2005 at 03:04 PM: Quote from: kt on Sep 21, 2005 at 02:26 PM
hi guys! can u help me how i can setup my dvd player (pioneer dv686a) & avr (marantz sr4500) for the dvd-a n sacds like connections n settings? tnx ???

Simply connect the DVD player's multichannel ANALOG 5.1 output to the receiver's multichanel ANALOG input (7.1 in the Marantz 4500 but just leave its 2 back channels empty). Use three pairs of well constructed RCA cables.

I think no additional setting is needed on the receiver. Just select Multichannel from among your sources when playing SACD or DVD-A.

On the DVD player, I believe it can automatically detect DVD-A or SACD. There may be settings in the AUDIO section in the onscreen menu to do this. Just refer to the manual.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: kt on Sep 21, 2005 at 04:17 PM: sir av tnx! so wud that be 3 pairs of 2ended rcas or the 3ended? wud it matter if i use reg rcas intead of DIY coax like for the SW cable?
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: bumblebee on Sep 21, 2005 at 04:26 PM: Not Sir AV...3 "2ended" pro pede rin yata yung "3ended" though this is used more for component video. Coax (pede rin ata) is usually used for digital connections. DVD-A and SACD outputs are analog in nature.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: av_phile1 on Sep 21, 2005 at 04:40 PM: Quote from: kt on Sep 21, 2005 at 04:17 PM
sir av tnx! so wud that be 3 pairs of 2ended rcas or the 3ended? wud it matter if i use reg rcas intead of DIY coax like for the SW cable?

Doesn't matter to me. 2-ended or 3 ended (you mean those for component vedeo). 75-ohm Coax or ordinary RCA, provided they're well constructed and terminated. 75-ohm coax cables will work fine in audio.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: kt on Sep 21, 2005 at 05:37 PM: bro bee n sir av tnx agn!

i meant yung reg rca cables with the 3colors po not the compo cables... basta i wud need 6 ends all in all ryt?

sir av yup wud there be a big difference if i use just reg rca VS the 75Ohm coax?
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: av_phile1 on Sep 21, 2005 at 05:46 PM: Quote from: kt on Sep 21, 2005 at 05:37 PM
bro bee n sir av tnx agn!

i meant yung reg rca cables with the 3colors po not the compo cables... basta i wud need 6 ends all in all ryt?

sir av yup wud there be a big difference if i use just reg rca VS the 75Ohm coax?

Technically, sonically, none.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: kt on Sep 21, 2005 at 05:53 PM: sir av tnx! ayan mas makakatipid pa! hehe

btw guys wat po ba difference ng dvd-a sa sacd? from wat i understood the dvd-a also has dts & dd ryt? while the sacd comes in the multichanel n the hybrid wc plays just like a cd format ryt? well...if ur gna choose among the 2 wc is better? tnx ???
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: av_phile1 on Sep 22, 2005 at 12:09 PM: I suggest you google search the terms SACD and DVD-Audio. There are many interesting sites on the net that can explain the two formats in varying detail.

Suffice it to say that these two formats are competing to be the de fact standard meant to replace CD. But it appears more than 5 years down the road, neither is catching on to achieve that objective and could very well co-exists together and with the CD as a high-end option for the small upscale audiophile market.

SACD comes in two flavours, one hybrid SACD which has a CD layer playable in any CD (plays the CD layer), while the other flavour doesn't and can only be played in a universal or SACD player.

DVD-Audio discs normally has DD and/or DTS tracks that any DVD player can play. But it's high resolution MLP tracks that define it as a DVD-Audio require special decoding circuits and require a universal player or a DVD-A player.

As to which is better, technically, it's debatable and sonically, subjective. Both formats promise the same degree of high fidelity with features that go beyond the redbook CD, often beyond the hearing abilities of ordinary humans. Bottomline, it still depends on the recording engineer on how well he optimized the recording technologies to max out the promise of the medium. There are great recordings and lousy ones in any media, LP, CD, Tapes, same with DVD-A and SACD. IMO, it is not the medium that matters, it's the recording.

Not all titles are released in SACD or DVD-A. Right now, there are old titles no longer available in CD but released and remixed for multichannel sound in SACD and DVD-A. T hat's the nice thing about having a universal player, just get the title you want in whatevever format it becomes available.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: kt on Sep 22, 2005 at 01:16 PM: sir av tnx agn! n yup thats wat i saw there are limited titles to choose from n not to mention most of them are the "classics"...
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: av_phile1 on Sep 22, 2005 at 03:04 PM: Most SACD titles I've seen are of the classical and jazz genre, especially at Montage. Some are DSD remixes of old analog and PCM titles but there's a growing list of original DSD recordings. But the DVD-A of Warner are a mix of classics, fusion jazz, pop, rock and R&B, mostly old analog and PCM titles remixed for multi-channel. Very few original recordings in the 96/24 resolution.
Title: Re: DVD Audio/SACD
Post by: kt on Sep 22, 2005 at 03:29 PM: tnx sir av! hope they release more titles here soon.. ;D