PinoyDVD: The Pinoy Digital Video & Devices Community
Entertainment => Film & TV Talk => Television => Topic started by: xage on Mar 27, 2002 at 01:03 PM
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I noticed a post on Friends about spinoffs so what about creating a new thread that tackles TV spinoffs!
To Start,
Here are so far the shows which I knew was a spin-off:
1. Fraiser - A spinoff of Cheers
2. Angel - A spinoff of Buffy The Vampire Slayer
Any other spinoffs that you may know of?
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Star Trek holds the Guiness World Record for most TV spin offs
Star Trek: The Original Series
Star Trek: The Animated Series
Star Trek: The Next Generation
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Star Trek: Voyager
Enterprise
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three degrees of spin-off TV series: ;D
Beverly Hills 90210 ---> Melrose Place ----> Models Inc.
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Happy Days begat Laverne and Shirley, Mork and Mindy and Joannie Loves Chachi.
Dallas spawned Knots Landing (Gary Ewing was the black sheep youngest brother to J.R. and Bobby)
Dynasty had The Colbys. In fact, for its first 4 episodes, the title of the spin off was Dynasty II: The Colbys.
B.J. And The Bear gave us The Misadventures of Sheriff Lobo
I tackled a lot of sitcom spinoffs in a separate thread. Click here (http://www.pinoydvd.com/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=74;start=135) to read about those.
A disturbing new trend is taking a successful show and milking the franchise for all it's worth. I can think of two examples:
1. Law & Order has two spinoffs: Law & Order: Special Victims Unit and Law & Order: Criminal Intent
2. Next season, C.S.I. spawns its own spin-off - C.S.I.: Miami.
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Party of Five ----> Time of Your Life
The Baywatch spin-offs. I think they have around 2?
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Millenium from the X-Files
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Millenium from the X-Files
I didn't know that Millenium was a spin-off of the X-files. Di ba more of nag-crossover yung characters ng one show to another ito ???
So guys when is a series a spin-off, and when is it considered naman na yung mga characters do crossovers (yun yung tawag sa comics lingo eh, right komikero) ???
Another good example of a crossover was that of Ally Mcbeal and The Practice.
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More TV spinoffs from the 80's:
A Different World was a spinoff of The Cosby Show. Lisa Bonet who played one of the daughthers was given her own show using the same character now going to college.
The Facts of Life was a spinoff of Different Strokes with the housekeeper Edna Garret character now running the boarding house.
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Millenium from the X-Files
The spinoff I knew was these three nerds in X-file series they have a short tv series stint.
As for Millenium, no connection between Lance Henriksen's series with X-files ???
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<slightly off topic>
Crossing Over : THE PROFILER and PRETENDER. There was this episode where The Profiler met with Jared, the Pretender to solve a case or something like that. :)
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Millenium from the X-Files
The spinoff I knew was these three nerds in X-file series they have a short tv series stint.
As for Millenium, no connection between Lance Henriksen's series with X-files ???
The Lone Gunmen was the X-Files spinoff. Although there was a Millenium episode in the X-Files.
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I stand corrected, sorry :-X
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So guys when is a series a spin-off, and when is it considered naman na yung mga characters do crossovers (yun yung tawag sa comics lingo eh, right komikero) ???
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Both spin-offs and crossovers have the character(s) of a TV series do ...ah...well...a crossover. :-[
The distinction lies if the character(s) in an existing TV series is given his own & new TV series, that is a spin-off.
On the other hand, if the character(s) in either two existing TV series do a special guest appearance in the other show, that is considered a crossover.
This thread ought to have a spin-off specifically focused on crossovers so as not to confuse the two. ??? ;D
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How about this--- a Movie Spinoff?
Scorpion King which would be shown by the way tommorow April 19
is a spinoff from the Mummy Series!
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I won't even begin to count the spinoffs that Baywatch spawned.
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Baywatch spawned two TV series:
Baywatch Hawaii
Baywatch Nights
They made several Baywatch TV movies and specials released on videos:
Baywatch: Panic at Malibu Pier (1989) (TV)
Baywatch: River of No Return (1992) (TV)
Baywatch Summerfest Special (1992) (TV)
Baywatch: Forbidden Paradise (1995) (V)
Baywatch: White Thunder at Glacier Bay (1998) (V)
Playboy's Babes of Baywatch (1998) (V)
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That many?!? Who would watch all that Baywatch Spin-off? :P
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M*A*S*H movie begot M*A*S*H the TV series which spun off Trapper John MD.
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M*A*S*H movie begot M*A*S*H the TV series which spun off Trapper John MD.
Interesting... this can start a new thread, actually:
Movie to TV Spin-offs
But I think we can keep it here, instead. ;)
Here are a few off the top of my head:
1. Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore -> Alice
2. Look Who's Talking -> Baby Talk
3. Working Girl -> Working Girl
4. 9 to 5 -> 9 to 5
5. A Nightmare on Elm Street -> Freddy's Nightmares
6. Friday the 13th -> Friday the 13th (though unrelated in plotline)
7. Planet of the Apes -> Planet of the Apes
8. Cruel Intentions -> Manchester Prep (edited together/reshot for video as "Cruel Intentions 2")
9. Buffy The Vampire Slayer -> Buffy The Vampire Slayer
10. Highlander -> Highlander and Highlander: The Raven
11. Beastmaster -> Beastmaster
12. Clueless -> Clueless
13. Harry and the Hendersons -> Harry and the
Hendersons
14. Animal House -> Delta House
15. Practically every Disney cartoon -> animated series and direct-to-video sequels.
Anyone want to try the reverse? From TV to movies... there are tons, as I'm sure the trekkers know... ;)
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ADDITIONAL:
Movie to tv spinoffs:
Stargate
La Femme Nikita
The Net
The Odd Couple
The Fugitive
Alien Nation
Star Wars -> Ewoks
Fame
In the Heat of the Night
The Paper Chase
Private Benjamin
Flipper
Starman
The Outsiders
Baby Boom
TV to Movie Spinoffs:
Star Trek (9 movies and 1 more on the way)
Mission: Impossible (2 movies and counting?)
Charlie's Angels (1 movie and 1 more on the way)
Battlestar Galactica (1 movie on the way, hopefully)
The Mod Squad (1 movie and hopefully that's it)
The X-Files
Lost in Space
My Favorite Martian
Dennis the Menace
The Twilight Zone
Batman
The Fugitive
The Brady Bunch
Police Squad -> The Naked Gun
The Flintstones
The Muppet Show
other tv spinoffs
Three's Company -> Three's A Crowd
Mission: Impossible -> Mission: Impossible
Love Boat -> Love Boat: The Next Wave
Six Million Dollar Man -> Bionic Woman
Columbo -> Kate Loves a Mystery (Mrs. Columbo) / Also lots of TV movies starring Columbo
Fantasy Island
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TV to Movie Spinoffs:
We can also add:
1. The Brady Bunch (Amusing, since it went from TV to movies and back to TV. The new sequel to the movie series is now a made-for-TV movie)
2. McHale's Navy
3. The Beverly Hillbillies
4. The Addams Family (same case as Brady Bunch: TV -> Movies -> back to TV)
5. Starsky and Hutch (in development)
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A distrubing new trend is taking a successful show and milking the franchise for all it's worth. I can think of two examples:
1. Law & Order has two spinoffs: Law & Order: Special Victims Unit and Law & Order: Criminal Intent
2. Next season, C.S.I. spawns its own spin-off - C.S.I.: Miami.
Ally McBeal begat Ally.
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That many?!? Who would watch all that Baywatch Spin-off? :P
I heard that David Hasselhoff is a big star in some countries like Germany because of Baywatch. He even have a recording career, number one album and such. :)
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as "Mork and Mindy", "Joanie Loves Chachie" and "Laverne and Shirley" all sprang from the success of "Happy Days".
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I just saw a preview of a crossover episode of ER and THIRD WATCH. The story line began on ER last week and continues on THIRD WATCH tonight with Dr. Lewis (Sherry Stringfield) guesting on THIRD WATCH.
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How about in Philippine TV Shows? Anyone can share what they remember where a spinoff or crossover happened?
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Correct me if I am wrong but Star Trek's new series (Like Voyager,Next Generation, Enterprise.. etc) are aso spin-offs from the original Star Trek TV Series?
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i wonder if there's a spinoff for "the adventures of pete and pete". i love that tv series.
hey smiling strange............ ;)
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All in the Family (1971) This TV comedy series spawned the most TV Show spin-offs.
Maude (1972 Spin-off)
Good Times (1974 Spin-off of "Maude")
The Jeffersons (1975 Spin-off)
Archie Bunker's Place (1979 Spin-off)
Checking In (1981 Spin-off of "The Jeffersons")
Gloria (1982 Spin-off)
"All in the Family 20th Anniversary Special" (1990 TV-Movie)
704 Hauser (1994 Spin-off)
"All in the Family: E! The True Hollywood Story" (2000 TV-Movie)
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frasier i now is a spinoff from cheers
and scorpion king from the mummy
is all i can think of, please add
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The Ropers is a spin-off of Three's Company
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we have two threads on this topic already:
check 'em out
Movies Based on TV Shows (http://www.pinoydvd.com/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=10810)
TV Series Spinoffs (http://www.pinoydvd.com/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3170)
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Oh my goodness JASSASS series is off now comes another reality show starring Bob Margera and his house.... remember the guy with a fat yet kind dad in JackAss... welll MTV gave him a TV show featuring him and ruining his parent's house ;D
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The name's actually Bam Margera. He was an accomplished skateboarder before he decided to go into the slapstick business.
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Secret Agent begat The prisoner (sort of)
The Mary Tyler Moore Show begat Lou Grant
Hill Street Blues begat Beverly Hills Buntz (Dennis Franz's first ---and short-lived- - -series)
The Flintstones begat Pebbles and Bamm Bamm
Wacky Races begat The Adventures of penelope Pitstop
The Six Million Dollar Man begat The Bionic Woman
and Picket Fences almost crossed over with The X Files.
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Do you think C.S.I. Miami be considered as a SPIN OFF of C.S.I.?
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A new show premiered tonight called "Navy NCIS" which is a spinoff from "JAG".
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:-* :-* :-* :-* 'Di nyoh bah napansin that in many aspects "Sex & The City" is a spin-off of "The Golden Girls"!?!
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It aint a Spin-Off coz its a different environment..... ;D
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:-* :-* :-* :-* 'Di nyoh bah napansin that in many aspects "Sex & The City" is a spin-off of "The Golden Girls"!?!
Not unless it turns out that Golden Girls was actually set in the year 2040.
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:P Been watching the re-runs here and I swear: Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte all have their respective geriatric counterparts from the GG main characters! :P
p.s.
How do you start a thread... I dunno if this was discussed before, but what does it take to be called a "DVD aficianado"? 8)
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Another spin-off derived again from MTV's Jackass is Steve O's & Party Boy's MTV Wild Boys.
After the success of Viva La Bam ( Bam Margera's Own MTV Show ) .. out again this jackass product..
well Jhonny Knoxville on the other hand is having a good time getting roles in the big screen
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of course let us not forget the latest spin off of a successful series, "Joey" starring Matt Le Blanc. The "Friends" spin off will premiere sometime in 2005.
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Family Matters TV show back in the 90's was a spinoff of DIE HARD movie..
remember the black guy policeman?
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Family Matters TV show back in the 90's was a spinoff of DIE HARD movie..
remember the black guy policeman?
from what i know... "family matters" (which features carl winslow and his family) was a spin-off of "perfect strangers". ::)
but the guy who played carl is indeed in die hard (1 & 2)... but his character's name there was al. ;D
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Family Matters TV show back in the 90's was a spinoff of DIE HARD movie..
remember the black guy policeman?
In "Family Matters" wasn't he a Chicago cop? In "Diehard" he was a Los Angeles cop. Did he transfer from LA to Chicago?
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In "Family Matters" wasn't he a Chicago cop? In "Diehard" he was a Los Angeles cop. Did he transfer from LA to Chicago?
nope... it's the same actor, but not the same character. ;)
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This is a first: a telephone spin-off for a popular show:
24 Rings Up Spin-Off
By Lisa Johnson
Would you watch a TV show on your cell phone? Twentieth Century Fox TV is willing to bet you are and has greenlit production of a live-action spin-off of their hit series 24 that will be produced exclusively for cell phone users.
The series, known as 24: Conspiracy, will feature original characters separate from the Fox TV series and will be produced in 24 roughly one-minute episodes. One segment will be downloaded to subscribers' phones each week.
Verizon will offer the series in the US late next spring or early summer. The U.K. gets it first, however, as Conspiracy debuts there on January 30. That launch is intended to coincide with the fourth-season premiere of 24 on SkyOne.
The technology that allows consumers to access streaming video and a host of other multimedia features via their cell phones is known as 3G. The Conspiracy project is the first major initiative to emerge from a content deal, between 20th parent Fox Entertainment Group and international cell giant Vodafone, that's designed to take advantage of this new technology.
24 executive producers Joel Surnow, Bob Cochran and Howard Gordon are fine with the spin-off, but will not be involved with the new series. Spark Hill Productions, which produced content for the DVD releases of 24, will produce the cell phone series, with Eric Young executive producing.
I wonder if Smart or Globe will pick up the Philippine rights for this new techie fad?
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This is a first: a telephone spin-off for a popular show:
24 Rings Up Spin-Off
By Lisa Johnson
Would you watch a TV show on your cell phone? Twentieth Century Fox TV is willing to bet you are and has greenlit production of a live-action spin-off of their hit series 24 that will be produced exclusively for cell phone users.
The series, known as 24: Conspiracy, will feature original characters separate from the Fox TV series and will be produced in 24 roughly one-minute episodes. One segment will be downloaded to subscribers' phones each week.
Verizon will offer the series in the US late next spring or early summer. The U.K. gets it first, however, as Conspiracy debuts there on January 30. That launch is intended to coincide with the fourth-season premiere of 24 on SkyOne.
The technology that allows consumers to access streaming video and a host of other multimedia features via their cell phones is known as 3G. The Conspiracy project is the first major initiative to emerge from a content deal, between 20th parent Fox Entertainment Group and international cell giant Vodafone, that's designed to take advantage of this new technology.
24 executive producers Joel Surnow, Bob Cochran and Howard Gordon are fine with the spin-off, but will not be involved with the new series. Spark Hill Productions, which produced content for the DVD releases of 24, will produce the cell phone series, with Eric Young executive producing.
I wonder if Smart or Globe will pick up the Philippine rights for this new techie fad?
if it becomes a hit in other parts of the world, smart, globe or sun probably will... (at a premium price, i'll bet ! LOL)
it's cool tho. would love to see how it looks once i get myself a "streaming capable" phone. ;)
BTW, aren't they already streaming video with audio? so far mostly just movie trailers and local news shows, i think. :(
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BTW, aren't they already streaming video with audio? so far mostly just movie trailers and local news shows, i think. :(
...and videos of Mahal. ;D :P
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This is a first: a telephone spin-off for a popular show:
24 Rings Up Spin-Off
By Lisa Johnson
Would you watch a TV show on your cell phone? Twentieth Century Fox TV is willing to bet you are and has greenlit production of a live-action spin-off of their hit series 24 that will be produced exclusively for cell phone users.
The series, known as 24: Conspiracy, will feature original characters separate from the Fox TV series and will be produced in 24 roughly one-minute episodes. One segment will be downloaded to subscribers' phones each week.
Verizon will offer the series in the US late next spring or early summer. The U.K. gets it first, however, as Conspiracy debuts there on January 30. That launch is intended to coincide with the fourth-season premiere of 24 on SkyOne.
The technology that allows consumers to access streaming video and a host of other multimedia features via their cell phones is known as 3G. The Conspiracy project is the first major initiative to emerge from a content deal, between 20th parent Fox Entertainment Group and international cell giant Vodafone, that's designed to take advantage of this new technology.
24 executive producers Joel Surnow, Bob Cochran and Howard Gordon are fine with the spin-off, but will not be involved with the new series. Spark Hill Productions, which produced content for the DVD releases of 24, will produce the cell phone series, with Eric Young executive producing.
I wonder if Smart or Globe will pick up the Philippine rights for this new techie fad?
What??!! It would take about 1,440 one-minuter episodes to finish an entire season via cellphone! ;D
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Bart,
mukhang na miss mo yung text. - it states 24 one minute episodes.
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"Top 10 Worst Television Spinoffs of All Time"
http://listverse.com/2009/10/01/top-10-worst-television-spinoffs-of-all-time/
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I always enjoy seeing shared universes among TV shows, particularly when done right. Obvious means of establishing shared worlds are through spin-offs and crossovers.
Classic examples include:
- The Six Million Dollar Man and its spin-off The Bionic Woman
- Cheers and its spin-off Frasier
- Dallas and its spin-off Knots Landing
- Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spin-off Angel
- CSI and its spin-offs CSI: Miami and CSI: NY
The best crossovers happen when characters show up in another, totally unrelated show, firmly establishing that their shows share the same world. Classic examples of TV series that take place in the same world include:
- Magnum, P.I., Simon and Simon, and Murder, She Wrote
- Ally McBeal, Boston Public, and The Practice
- The X-Files and Millennium
- Friends and Mad About You
- Chicago Hope and Early Edition
- Everybody Loves Raymond, The Nanny, Murphy Brown, and King of Queens
- all the Law & Order series plus Homicide: Life on the Street
More recent examples of TV series that share the same world include:
- CSI, CSI: Miami, CSI: NY, Without A Trace, and Cold Case
- Grey's Anatomy and Private Practice
- Warehouse 13, Eureka, and Alphas
- Bones and The Finder
- JAG, NCIS, NCIS: Los Angeles, and Hawaii Five-0
- Scrubs and Cougar Town
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eto gusto ko - Warehouse 13, Eureka, and Alphas
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Stargate SG-1 and Stargate: Atlantis
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Wow, this thread is approaching its TENTH ANNIVERSARY. ;D
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Wow, this thread is approaching its TENTH ANNIVERSARY. ;D
LOL, I didn't even realize there was a spin-off thread...I should've also searched using "spinoff" without the dash. ;D
...anyway, animated shows have shared worlds as well, with the best examples being Family Guy, its spin-off The Cleveland Show, and American Dad. Last October, all three shows had a special three-part crossover event, titled "Night of the Hurricane," in which a storm hits the towns of Stoolbend, Quahog and Langley Falls, resulting in the casts of all three shows meeting up for the first time.
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Wow, this thread is approaching its TENTH ANNIVERSARY. ;D
;D congrats! i wonder if the thread starter is still around?
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;D congrats! i wonder if the thread starter is still around?
si sir xage pala ;D
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Upcoming crossover event on Hawaii Five-0 and NCIS: Los Angeles:
In the first episode of a two-night crossover event with NCIS: Los Angeles, Sam and Callen team up with Danny and Chin Ho in Hawaii to track down a suspect who is threatening to release a deadly virus into the population, on Hawaii Five-0. Chris O’Donnell guest stars as Special Agent G. Callen and LL Cool J guest stars as Special Agent Sam Hanna. Airdate: Monday, April 30, 2012
In the conclusion, Callen, Sam, Danny and Chin Ho travel to the mainland on the heels of a suspect carrying a deadly virus, on NCIS: Los Angeles. Scott Caan guest stars as Detective Sergeant Danny Williams and Daniel Dae Kim guest stars as Detective Lieutenant Chin Ho Kelly. Airdate: Tuesday, May 1, 2012.
This is the second time characters from both shows have crossed over; NCIS: Los Angeles agent Kensi Blye (Daniela Ruah) previously appeared in a Hawaii Five-0 episode just last October.
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Good timing for the crossover, since the McGarrett-less episode this week was a bust. I just realized how heavily the show relies on the Buddy Chemistry of O'Loughlin-Caan. We'll miss the absence of this with the crossover. I hope he's out of rehab already and can return to the show soon.
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A 2-part crossover between CSI: Crime Scene Investigation and CSI: NY is ongoing, with Part 1 seeing Mac Taylor in Las Vegas discovering that his girlfriend Christine has been abducted. Part 2 concludes in CSI: NY, this time with D.B. heading to New York with Mac to assist in the case.
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Spin-Offs seem to work for The CW:
I hear that The Vampire Diaries will be spinning off The Originals?
The Carrie Diaries is a spin-off of/prequel to Sex and the City.
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The Simpsons shares the same animated universe as Family Guy, The Cleveland Show, and American Dad -- a Simpsons/Family Guy crossover is scheduled to air this September.
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Law and Order SVU shares the same universe as Chicago PD.
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Law and Order SVU shares the same universe as Chicago PD.
there was a crossover episode between chicago fire and chicago PD last week... next in line is the crossover between chicago PD and Law and order SVU...
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next in line is the crossover between chicago PD and Law and order SVU...
It happened already. So is there another one upcoming?
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Another CSI spinoff- CSI: Cyber
http://www.givememyremote.com/remote/2014/05/14/csi-cyber-on-cbs-first-look/ (http://www.givememyremote.com/remote/2014/05/14/csi-cyber-on-cbs-first-look/)
NCIS spinoff- NCIS: New Orleans
http://www.cbs.com/shows/ncis-new-orleans/?ftag=ACQ5928901&vndid=NCIS-New-Orleans (http://www.cbs.com/shows/ncis-new-orleans/?ftag=ACQ5928901&vndid=NCIS-New-Orleans)
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(https://s2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/iL.7GauNwVRlM31E0.puEw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTcxMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/tv/2014-05-14/fda3bf10-dbb4-11e3-a074-557b96ba7a83_infographic-gfx-procedural-spinoffs-v3-FINAL.png)
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It happened already. So is there another one upcoming?
Sorry my bad... Yup it happened already last february...
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A crossover for Scorpion and NCIS: Los Angeles will air later this month, when Linda Hunt's character, Henrietta "Hetty" Lange helps the Scorpion team with a case.
The episode puts Scorpion in the same shared universe as JAG / NCIS / NCIS: Los Angeles / Hawaii Five-0 / NCIS: New Orleans
(http://i.imgur.com/ZJFyQBj.jpg)
And on November 9, the Futurama cast guest stars in The Simpsons episode, "Simpsorama"
(http://i.imgur.com/8FnJzXj.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/IY0ofpk.jpg)
...which now places Futurama in the same universe as The Simpsons / Family Guy / The Cleveland Show / American Dad
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Bones and Sleepy Hollow share the same universe
Chicago Med shares the same universe with Chicago Fire, Chicago P.D., and the entire Law & Order universe
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I enjoyed the Bones - Sleepy Hollow crossover.
(https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12191512_10153810146059171_234647033161174098_n.jpg?oh=e7a53c2ca72902960fa1c85b745aab92&oe=56CF47A0)
:D
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I enjoyed the Bones - Sleepy Hollow crossover.
Same here--that was kinda fun, even though I don't watch Bones and not familiar with its characters; does Bones really talk like Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory?
It was a shock to see Ichabod and Abbie in the brightly-lit setting of Bones, and vice-versa for Bones and Booth in Sleepy Hollow's muted color palette.
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Same here--that was kinda fun, even though I don't watch Bones and not familiar with its characters; does Bones really talk like Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory?
Yes, but even with that quirk, I like Emily a lot more than her sister Zooey. ;D
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The NBC sitcom Superstore and The Mindy Project share the same universe -- a branch of Superstore's "Cloud 9" big box store was shown in a recent episode of The Mindy Project.
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Soon, probably on Arrow's Season 6.. Batman comes to the CW..
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The CW DC TV Crossover Will Be ‘3-Hour Story’ & Begin On The Flash (http://screenrant.com/flash-arrow-legends-tomorrow-supergirl-crossover-details/)
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The Exorcist TV series shares the same universe as The Exorcist movie --the first film, anyway.
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The New Girl pala share the same universe as Brooklyn Nine-Nine
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Some updates:
Shared Universes:
- JAG, First Monday, NCIS, NCIS: Los Angeles, Hawaii Five-0, NCIS: New Orleans, Scorpion, MacGyver
- Law & Order universe, Homicide: Life on the Street, New York Undercover, Deadline, Conviction, In Plain Sight, Chicago Fire, Chicago P.D., Chicago Med, Chicago Justice
- Bones, The Finder, Sleepy Hollow, Rosewood
- The Good Wife, The Good Fight
- The Vampire Diaries, The Originals
- Pretty Little Liars, Ravenswood
- Arrow, The Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, Supergirl
- Lab Rats, Mighty Med, Lab Rats: Elite Force
- The Librarian TV movies, The Librarians
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The spin-off of The Blacklist, The Blacklist Redemption is out.