Topic: Help in Power Requirements

[vx2]

I'll be slowly setting up my room in the next few months and while I got the basics in the sound department, I need help in power requirements especially for the sound equipment.

As of the moment, my Pioneer 919 receiver is on it's way here along with a small satellite speaker system that I will be upgrading to a more robust 5.1 full fledged sound system (Floorstanders, center, sub and surround) + i'll be using the Zone 2 feature for two bookshelves. Since I'm assuming it will be a 110v unit, i'll be using a transformer/avr of course, question is what's the max wattage AVR should I get to power all the sound equipment? I can't seem to get a grasp on how much power this "system" will draw hence I need help from you experts...that and I'll be planning of connecting the 919 with a UPS just to be sure too.

Some of the other equipment (game consoles, TV etc.,) i think I got covered. Help would be appreciated, thank you! 

[barrister]

... question is what's the max wattage AVR should I get to power all the sound equipment?

You mean minimum rating for the AVR?  I recommend a 2KVA.

First, compute the total maximum consumption of all units to be connected to the AVR.  Just check each unit's user manual and the power consumption will be stated in the specifications list at the end.

The usual rule of thumb is that the regulator can be used continuously at around 65% of VA capacity.  Divide the power consumption by 0.65 and you get the recommended minimum rating for the AVR.

For example, if a TV, DVD player and AV Receiver have a total power consumption of 650W, then 650/.65 = 1000, which means that you will need an AVR with a rating of at least 1000W (or 1000VA or 1KVA).

However, I recommend a 2000W AVR because I notice that the ones with a 2K rating consistently have better build quality than the ones with lower ratings.  Besides, a higher AVR capacity will allow you to add more components in the future without worries.

[blued888]

A 1500w AVR is probably enough for most people.

Receivers typically draw in < 100w during typical use.

[vx2]

However, I recommend a 2000W AVR because I notice that the ones with a 2K rating consistently have better build quality than the ones with lower ratings.  Besides, a higher AVR capacity will allow you to add more components in the future without worries.

Thank you! I was planning on getting an AVR with a conditioner dedicated to the Amp itself but it seems excessive now that I look at it. I'm thinking i'll consolidate my two AVRs and get a big 1500/2000 one. Or maybe not, but it looks like i've found my answer. Are line conditioners really that effective btw?

[blued888]

Are line conditioners really that effective btw?

Personally I've never used one and never had issues with any of my components. I only use a Panther surge protector (P450 thereabouts) in tandem with a 1000w/1500w AVR.

[barrister]

Same here. I've never used a line conditioner, and I've never had any problems either.

AVRs are simpler --- everyone agrees that they're essential.  In contrast, power line conditioners are very controversial ---  some will insist until they're blue in the face that they're necessary, while others dismiss it as useless snake oil.

Based on what I've read from various forum posts, a line conditioner can improve some systems, sometimes they have no effect, but sometimes they can make things even worse.

[blued888]

And I definitely can't stomach shelling out approximately P3,000 (possibly more) for a line conditioner when I feel I can get the same thing from my surge protector. Our AVR cost only P2,200+ for a 1500w unit, why is a line conditioner much more expensive than that... I don't know.

[barrister]

I also use a surge protector with circuit breaker, the ordinary type that you can get in hardware stores at the malls:



I really didn't need the surge protection and circuit breaker, since I think the AVR can do the same job anyway.  I have that power strip only because I needed its switches and extra sockets.

[dm1179]

AVR = for voltage regulation. most have added power-on delay feature.

Surge Protector = for power surges and voltage/current spike suppression.

Power Conditioner = for improving power quality. depending on price and model, may include EMI/RFI noise filter, active PFC for phase correction, voltage regulation and surge protection.

[JojoD818]

It would be wise to compare the cost of an AVR with an LC with the same power ratings. Say a 3KVA AVR against a 3KVA max load LC.

AVRs are cheaper because they only step up/down one line of the mains voltage and that is easy, technically. LCs on the other hand have full-time filters across the mains and across the mains and ground, these filters are more expensive than the circuitry that controls the servo in an AVR.

LCs, in a matter of speaking, are like glorified extension cords, however, they must contain a series of emi and rfi filters as well as surge suppressors that protects your equipment from power surges/spikes, otherwise they are just that - good looking extension cords with a lot of outlets. Use of a good LC also promotes proper grounding, most AVRs have none.

You can always get away without an LC, but as an exercise (for anyone who dares), open up the psu of your LCD, the psu of your PS3, the psu of your DVD player, or even the psu of your Laptop's charger or even your cellphone charger, and you'll find at least a 1st order LC filter in there that filters rfi which can interfere with the switching section of that psu.

Think of an LC as a car's seat belt, we can get away without using them, oftentimes... but with the series of vehicular accidents reported lately, I'd rather use them.

[iiinas]

Are line conditioners really that effective btw?

i think for pure audio use, power/line conditioners has been argued to had help in improving sonic quality. but for ht usage, as sirs barrister and blued888 said, its just a glamorized piece of mega surge protector. if money is not an issue, as they say these are insurance type of support equipment, no harm as they say. but if money is tight, i think the priority should be an avr, and there are a lot of good brands like belkin and etc. that offer surge protection for 5-6 hundred pesos, but of course no power/line conditioning.  

[iiinas]

It would be wise to compare the cost of an AVR with an LC with the same power ratings. Say a 3KVA AVR against a 3KVA max load LC.

AVRs are cheaper because they only step up/down one line of the mains voltage and that is easy, technically. LCs on the other hand have full-time filters across the mains and across the mains and ground, these filters are more expensive than the circuitry that controls the servo in an AVR.

LCs, in a matter of speaking, are like glorified extension cords, however, they must contain a series of emi and rfi filters as well as surge suppressors that protects your equipment from power surges/spikes, otherwise they are just that - good looking extension cords with a lot of outlets. Use of a good LC also promotes proper grounding, most AVRs have none.

You can always get away without an LC, but as an exercise (for anyone who dares), open up the psu of your LCD, the psu of your PS3, the psu of your DVD player, or even the psu of your Laptop's charger or even your cellphone charger, and you'll find at least a 1st order LC filter in there that filters rfi which can interfere with the switching section of that psu.

Think of an LC as a car's seat belt, we can get away without using them, oftentimes... but with the series of vehicular accidents reported lately, I'd rather use them.

the master has spoken! 

[vx2]

Wow. Thanks guys! I'm quite sure i'll be good to go with these tips 

[pekspert]

Like theyve said, you can go with a 1.5kv avr or better yet a 2kv. Mag LC ka na lang  when you have extra funds. The UPS is not really necessary.

Personally i have both LC and AVR (5kv ) in my home threatre/

[Stagea]

Based on my trusty fluke multimeter mas stable ang kuryente ko straight from the outlet than from a bnew 2kva servo controlled AVR.  The AVR's output modulates with my amps' current demands. The voltage reading drops during transients, so the AVR tries to compensate for this by ramping up output... then the musical peak ends so it overshoots and tries to again compensate by reducing output. You can see this as the reading goes up and down a little bit. Plugging the amps directly to the wall didn't measurably change my wall outlet's reading.

Remember that AVRs have smaller coils, and are more prone to voltage dips at peak demand. This is why oversizing is often a good practice, as they have larger windings (and thus stiffer outputs). The utility provider's transformer definitely is quite stiff, as it's designed to take a lot of load. If the house's outlets measure well throughout the day, I'd rather just use a power-on delay instead of an AVR.

@VX2

Since you'd be using 110V units, most AVRs can only run half of rated output when using the 110V tap. The current capacity of the coil remains the same, but the half voltage tap will also halve effective capacity in power. So if you'd need a 2kva 110v source, you might need to buy a 4kva AVR.

[vx2]

@VX2

Since you'd be using 110V units, most AVRs can only run half of rated output when using the 110V tap. The current capacity of the coil remains the same, but the half voltage tap will also halve effective capacity in power. So if you'd need a 2kva 110v source, you might need to buy a 4kva AVR.

So it's a 2 x AVR combo then? Seems like the receiver and Xbox are the only 110v equipment so I guess that would warrant it. And if I just want to listen to some music I just need to turn on one regulator. Thanks, I didn't know that info.

[Stagea]

2 smaller ones would do fine, but a single big one is usually more stable overall (plus there is no more load balancing to think about).

[vx2]

Hmmm, a quick question how much power does a receiver usually draw powering a 7.1 system? >100w nga ba?

[JojoD818]

If you want to maintain stability, it is good practice to load your AVRs with about 60%~70% maximum combined load only.

Hth

[blued888]

Hmmm, a quick question how much power does a receiver usually draw powering a 7.1 system? >100w nga ba?

Depends on the volume and impedance of your speakers. 4-ohm and 6-ohm speakers are more power hungry since they require more power to reach the same volume levels of 8-ohm speakers.

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php?topic=91551.0

Take a look at that link, I used a watt-meter on a RX-V663 receiver with 5 speakers connected.

The active subwoofer is a separate entity to be measured since it's plugged in on its own unless your subwoofer is the passive type.

[vx2]

Thanks! I never knew there was that comprehensive testing thread there. So it's safe to say that the receiver will draw typically a 100W if we're going to be safe no? 

Finally one last question sir Blued, a 10" sub would draw how much power?

[blued888]

Thanks! I never knew there was that comprehensive testing thread there. So it's safe to say that the receiver will draw typically a 100W if we're going to be safe no? 

Finally one last question sir Blued, a 10" sub would draw how much power?

Let's put it between 100w to 150w to be safe since you said you were going to be running a 7.0 setup plus subwoofer.

As for a 10-incher, it entirely depends on the wattage rating of the plate amplifier. My subwoofer is rated at 200w and so far the peak I've seen it go to is around 135w. So, I guess that's typically 75% of the wattage rating of your subwoofer's amplifier.

[vx2]

So running it down, and these would be at their "peak", LCDTV 42" (280W), PS3(200W), Xbox360 110v (180W) , Receiver + 7 speakers (150W), Sub (130W), would a 1500W AVR do?

[blued888]

So running it down, and these would be at their "peak", LCDTV 42" (280W), PS3(200W), Xbox360 110v (180W) , Receiver + 7 speakers (150W), Sub (130W), would a 1500W AVR do?

Would recommend getting a 2000w AVR for those, para may headroom just in case you decide to add anything else to the pack.

[vx2]

Thanks boss, I learned so much today in regards to electrical stabilization thanks to your references. 

Probably be getting a Maldol, Stac produces them (albeit with less expensive parts I assume) and be researching on LCs.

[blued888]

Thanks boss, I learned so much today in regards to electrical stabilization thanks to your references. 

Probably be getting a Maldol, Stac produces them (albeit with less expensive parts I assume) and be researching on LCs.

If I recall correctly, the 2000w Maldol is only P300+ more expensive than the 1500w version (at least in Raon).