Topic: 1080p signal -> 720p LCD: Does it make sense?

[jarod]

Hi guys!

I would like to inquire on some assumption that I have regarding non-Full HD LCDs.

Instead of getting a 32" full HD, I'm thinking of getting a larger 42" non-Full HD and just get an upscaling player (since an upscaling player is cheaper than getting a bigger full HD LCD).

Does it make sense?

What happens to the image given the ff scenarios:
A. 720p signal -> 1080p LCD
B. 1080p signal -> 720p LCD

Also, would setup "B" be better than doing setup "A"

I'm actually dumbfounded by this. I know the answer personally but I want to further convince myself. Thank you!

[streetsmart]

Hi guys!

I would like to inquire on some assumption that I have regarding non-Full HD LCDs.

Instead of getting a 32" full HD, I'm thinking of getting a larger 42" non-Full HD and just get an upscaling player (since an upscaling player is cheaper than getting a bigger full HD LCD).

Does it make sense?

What happens to the image given the ff scenarios:
A. 720p signal -> 1080p LCD
B. 1080p signal -> 720p LCD

Also, would setup "B" be better than doing setup "A"

I'm actually dumbfounded by this. I know the answer personally but I want to further convince myself. Thank you!

If your screen size is 32", you won't be able to tell the difference between full HD and non-full, unless you  are a few feet away from the screen.

The upscaling player will be helpful but there is no comparison to a bluray or NMT or media player. Much better than your options A or B.

[frequenzy]

when it comes to LCD/PLASMA, a simple rule would be the bigger the better :-) don't worry about 720P/1080P signals unless your buying a 50+ inch tv. a full HD 32" is not significant unless you watch 2ft away or you use it primarily as a PC monitor.

between a 32" Full HD vs 42" HD Ready, hands down on the 42"

[jarod]

@ streetsmart: Yup, I also intend to play movies on an NMT. I guess getting a good 1080p file to play would help a lot than getting an upscaling DVD player. I guess a non-full HD would still play great if data is sourced from a BD ISO for example in an NMT.

@frenzy: Will take note of that rule. I guess I'm just getting too engrossed in the non/full HD thing. It's just that, I want to commit less mistakes as much as possible in my setup as these will be expensive mistakes 

[Philander]

I will still go for a 42" panel with native resolution of 1366 x 768 (720p panel) that support 1080p video signal. Most of the recent HD Ready (720p) panel supports 1080 video signal, as Ive said before, the 1080p is being "fit" to the 1366 x 768 native resolution using 1080p video signal.

Upscaling player is still necessary so you can maximize your panel even if the panel is not a full HD.  Some upscaling player supports upscaling upto 1080p and this video signal will be utilize by your LCD esp if it support 1080p video signal.

Remember that video signal is different from native resolution.

What happens to the image given the ff scenarios:
A. 720p signal -> 1080p LCD
B. 1080p signal -> 720p LCD

A: The output will still be 720p (the panel will be passive and will be based of the source player)

B. The output will depends on your LCD capability. Again, some 720p lcd can accept 1080p video signal, thus it will display 1080p.

If the lcd does not support 1080p video signal, then using the B scenario... it will not shown any video signal. Either you set the source player to 1080i or 720p. And the panel will display the signal respectively/correspondingly.

Would setup "B" be better than doing setup "A"

Set up A will always be better since the panel is a FULL HD. However if size will be different, I would choose a non FULL HD LCD of the bigger panel size BUT it SHOULD accept 1080p signal (even if its not a FULL HD).

[andre]

The bigger the better. You wont notice 720p on a 40" screen. unless your 3 feet away. 

[streetsmart]

@ streetsmart: Yup, I also intend to play movies on an NMT. I guess getting a good 1080p file to play would help a lot than getting an upscaling DVD player. I guess a non-full HD would still play great if data is sourced from a BD ISO for example in an NMT.

@frenzy: Will take note of that rule. I guess I'm just getting too engrossed in the non/full HD thing. It's just that, I want to commit less mistakes as much as possible in my setup as these will be expensive mistakes 

Once again ... I really don't think you're going to see the difference between a 1080p file and a 720p file if your screen size is limited to 32", and probably even 42". You normally can see the improvement once you hit 60" and above (mainly projectors).

If your source is 720p from a media player and you use a 32" or 42" display, the picture will be excellent. Much better than an upscaled picture.

[av_phile1]

Hi guys!

I would like to inquire on some assumption that I have regarding non-Full HD LCDs.

Instead of getting a 32" full HD, I'm thinking of getting a larger 42" non-Full HD and just get an upscaling player (since an upscaling player is cheaper than getting a bigger full HD LCD).

Does it make sense?

What happens to the image given the ff scenarios:
A. 720p signal -> 1080p LCD
B. 1080p signal -> 720p LCD

Also, would setup "B" be better than doing setup "A"

I'm actually dumbfounded by this. I know the answer personally but I want to further convince myself. Thank you!

Setup B would be better.  In general, downscaling from a higher res to a lower res is better than the reverse.  

Forget about getting an upscaling DVD player, your LCD TV already does the upscaling from component or VGA connection.  ALL LCD TVs upscale or downscale to their native resolution depending on the source input resolution.  the only benefit from the new upscaling DVD players is their HDMI connectivity, which is really a waste on low bitrate content such as 480p.  But you do get all-digital connection which has dubious benefits on a 480p content.

Lastly, I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy a 42" LCD with non-full HD 720p native resolution.  The dot pitch would be severely compromised, unless it has some display technologies to double the pixel count on large screens.    Dot pitch or pixel count per inch (dpi or ppi)is the key hardware indicator of image sharpness and overall image quality.  The best monitors have 90 dpi or higher.  A 42-inch TV with a native resolution of 720p will only have 34 dpi.  A 32 inch LCD would have 45 dpi in the same resolution.  A 22" monitor would have 66 dpi at 720 res.   (The formula for dpi or ppi is everywhere on the Internet. You can compute yourself for the dot pitch in mm by divding the number 25.4 by the dpi.  Most commercial TVs are specified with separate horizontal and vertical dot pitches though. I prefer a diagonal dot pitch indication.)

Just my thoughts.  

[markcrenz]

Forget about getting an upscaling DVD player, your LCD TV already does the upscaling from component or VGA connection. ALL LCD TVs upscale or downscale to their native resolution depending on the source input resolution.  the only benefit from the new upscaling DVD players is their HDMI connectivity, which is really a waste on low bitrate content such as 480p.  But you do get all-digital connection which has dubious benefits on a 480p content.

Not so. My upscaling DVD player definitely delivers a better PQ via HDMI compared to a progressive scan dvd player connected via component input.

[av_phile1]

Not so. My upscaling DVD player definitely delivers a better PQ via HDMI compared to a progressive scan dvd player connected via component input.

Somehow I expected that.  It's a pernenial battle about which upscales better, the LCD or the player. Using analog conections will let the LCD do the upscaling.  Using HDMI on a player that upscales will let the player do the upscaling.  So if your player has a better upscaling circuit than what the LCD has,  hdmi connection is better.  To settle the issue, many who can afford just buy a separate upsampling gadget.  Personally,l if I can't afford a good upsampling player, I'll just trust the LCD TV to do it for me.  

[Clondalkin]

What happens to the image given the ff scenarios:
A. 720p signal -> 1080p LCD
B. 1080p signal -> 720p LCD

Also, would setup "B" be better than doing setup "A"

This I think is indeterminate because both outputs would be effectively 720p. 

[bachwitz]

Lastly, I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy a 42" LCD with non-full HD 720p native resolution.  The dot pitch would be severely compromised, unless it has some display technologies to double the pixel count on large screens.    Dot pitch or pixel count per inch (dpi or ppi)is the key hardware indicator of image sharpness and overall image quality.  The best monitors have 90 dpi or higher.  A 42-inch TV with a native resolution of 720p will only have 34 dpi.  A 32 inch LCD would have 45 dpi in the same resolution.  A 22" monitor would have 66 dpi at 720 res.   (The formula for dpi or ppi is everywhere on the Internet. You can compute yourself for the dot pitch in mm by divding the number 25.4 by the dpi.  Most commercial TVs are specified with separate horizontal and vertical dot pitches though. I prefer a diagonal dot pitch indication.)

Just my thoughts.  

  Take note its not just the resolution that makes a tv good.

Per sir Barrister..

According to the ISF (Imaging Science Foundation), the most important aspects of picture quality are:  1. contrast ratio, 2. color saturation, 3. color accuracy, and 4. resolution, in that order.  Note that resolution is actually the least important among the four aspects.   

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php?topic=74801.0

Resolution is the least of the four. Thats why there are members here that are buying 42'' 720p plasma. And base on their reviews its much better than full hd LCD of the same size. Plasma is know for better contrast and have better black level.

[jarod]

Such interesting inputs...

The more confusing it gets...but I guess its better to have options than none.

[bachwitz]

Such interesting inputs...

The more confusing it gets...but I guess its better to have options than none.

To confuse you more, heres the link.... 

http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter

the article says to fully appreciate 1080p, you need at least a 50inch tv.

[av_phile1]

  Take note its not just the resolution that makes a tv good.

Per sir Barrister..

According to the ISF (Imaging Science Foundation), the most important aspects of picture quality are:  1. contrast ratio, 2. color saturation, 3. color accuracy, and 4. resolution, in that order.  Note that resolution is actually the least important among the four aspects.  

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php?topic=74801.0

Resolution is the least of the four. Thats why there are members here that are buying 42'' 720p plasma. And base on their reviews its much better than full hd LCD of the same size. Plasma is know for better contrast and have better black level.

I was assuming all those 3 other factors are pretty much on the same footing.  Almost all LCDs from the major brands have excellent contrast ratios, color saturation/accuracy and black levels as we're not talking 2005 models when LCDs were just catching up with Plasmas.  And I was talking about dot pitch as a key indicator of resolution, your 4th factor. I wasn't talking about overall display quality.

[av_phile1]

To confuse you more, heres the link.... 

http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter

the article says to fully appreciate 1080p, you need at least a 50inch tv.

It also means you get full benefit of 1080p on a 32 inch LCD at around 4-5 feet viewing distance based on the chart.  Viewing distance is critical in appreciating the details on a 1080p display.  That's why people can't distinguish between 720p and 1080p at more than 5 feet viewing distance on a 32" LCD.  The same with 50 inch TVs. View it further than 12 ft away and you'd have the same hard time distinguishing between the two. People who edit video often use only 22" to 26" full HD monitors and at 1-2 ft away, they can appreciate 1080p materials more than 720p ones.

I know you'll tell me, but people don't watch TV closer than 6 ft away.  True and very advisable if you're using flicker-plagued CRT TVs for the sake of your eyes. But with non-flicker LCDs, you can view it as close as you want.  That's why japaense people in the Tokyo metro can appreciate 1080p because their small apartments seldom have rooms more than 6ft long at its widest part.  Putting a 32"  LCD flat panel display on a wall and sitting on a sofa opposite it puts them just 5 ft away from the TV.  And the experience watching full 1080p is just thrilling at that distance.  We pinoys are lucky to have bigger rooms.  But that's why we seldom appreciate 1080p or distinguish it from 720p on 32" LCDs because our viewing distances are greater than 6ft. But throw in a 50" TV and you start to appreciate one at those distances. 

[bachwitz]

I was assuming the all those 3 other factors are pretty much on the same footing.  Almost all LCDs from the major brands have excellent contrast ratios, color saturation/accuracy and black levels as we're not talking 2005 models when LCDs were just catching up with Plasmas.  And I was talking about dot pitch as a key indicator of resolution, your 4th factor. I wasn't talking about overall display quality.

well you said you wouldnt recommend a 42'' 720p LCD. I'm just pointing out that there are other factors that is to be considered.

[av_phile1]

well you said you wouldnt recommend a 42'' 720p LCD. I'm just pointing out that there are other factors that is to be considered.

 

And I still would'nt recommend one given the choices. All those other factors are pretty much excellent enough at this time across the leading brands.  But you just can't overcome the dot pitch reality.  The bigger the screen size for the same resolution, the poorer the dot pitch.  

[Clondalkin]

42V Non Full HD LCD?  I wouldnt recommend either. Pixel requirement of LCDs is "stiffer" (for lack of a better word) than that of "dithered" Plasma.

Anyways, meron pa bang over 40V LCD na non full HD in the market?

[fakuryu]

http://reviews.cnet.com/720p-vs-1080p-hdtv/

that is a great read so dont frown 720p owners!

[jarod]

42V Non Full HD LCD?  I wouldnt recommend either. Pixel requirement of LCDs is "stiffer" (for lack of a better word) than that of "dithered" Plasma.

Anyways, meron pa bang over 40V LCD na non full HD in the market?

None of the releases that I have seen except for the Plasmas.

[jarod]

Based from the info above, would this produce the same viewing experience?

-  720p signal  -> 720p HDTV
- 1080p signal -> 720p HDTV

I'm just curious if they will have different results given they will have different handling of the volume of data. Would it be better to have a snug fit than to a trimmed fit? Or will it now matter depending on the brand given each implement it's own technology flavor?

[bachwitz]

None of the releases that I have seen except for the Plasmas.

Yey, way to go plasmas! 

[bachwitz]

http://reviews.cnet.com/720p-vs-1080p-hdtv/

that is a great read so down frown 720p owners!

this article was published last march.

Katzmaier stands by his previous analysis: The extra sharpness afforded by the 1080p televisions he's seen is noticeable only when watching 1080i or 1080p sources on a larger screens, say 55 inches and bigger, or with projectors that display a wall-size picture. Katzmaier also says that the main real-world advantage of 1080p is not the extra sharpness you'll be seeing, but instead, the smaller, more densely packed pixels.

Personally, if I were choosing between the 720p 50-inch Panasonic TC-P50X1 and the 1080p Panasonic TC-P50S1 for a bedroom, I'd strongly consider going with the cheaper model if it meant saving $600-$700. That savings is enough to buy another 32-inch LCD for another room.

[Clondalkin]

Moving image quality of 1080p HDTVs are not sharper than that of 720p ones.  They are cleaner and smoother especially on the edges and homogeneous areas.  

If you try to watch a news program where the newscaster is wearing wool suit, a 720p panel would render his/her suit with lots of jagged lines while with 1080p, it is easier to discern the fabric himulmols because the lines are cleaner.

At close viewing, a 720p panel makes complexion look lined as if masked by a fine net; a 1080p panel makes complexion look naturally homogeneous, because the masking net has even finer pitch.

At close viewing, the resolution lines of a 720p panel look like fine lines.  For a 1080p panel, the pitch between resolution lines is so close, that instead of seeing lines, you'd see mosquitoes.

Those are the main reasons why you can possibly sit closer on 1080p sets.  

[av_phile1]

http://reviews.cnet.com/720p-vs-1080p-hdtv/

that is a great read so down frown 720p owners!

From the same article, highlights mine

"Katzmaier stands by his previous analysis: The extra sharpness afforded by the 1080p televisions he's seen is noticeable only when watching 1080i or 1080p sources on a larger screens, say 55 inches and bigger, or with projectors that display a wall-size picture. Katzmaier also says that the main real-world advantage of 1080p is not the extra sharpness you'll be seeing, but instead, the smaller, more densely packed pixels. In other words, you can sit closer to a 1080p television and not notice any pixel structure, such as stair-stepping along diagonal lines, or the screen-door effect (where you can actually see the space between the pixels). This advantage applies regardless of the quality of the source."

He didn't mention it, but that's my point - the dot pitch.  More pixels per square inch or greater density of pixels.  And that only cones with a higher resolution, regardless of screen size - 32 or 42 or 55.  You can sit closer to the screen and enjoy 1080p resolution without being distracted from all those pixel dots.  In tagalog. mas siksik ang pixels.  With 720p on a 42" you'll see more  of those pixel dots than if it were 1080p native at the same 4-5 fit viewing distance.

But I digress when he said it can only be seen at 55" or higher. It depends on your viewing distance.  You won't notice it even on a 62" monitor if you're seated 30ft away.  Like I said, even a 22" montor can benefit from 1080p when seated 1-2ft away. So if we're talking about typical TV viewing distances at 6ft to 10ft, 1080p becomes advantageous starting with 42" LCD TVs.  

[av_phile1]

Moving image quality of 1080p HDTVs are not sharper than that of 720p ones.  They are cleaner and smoother especially on the edges and homogeneous areas.  

If you try to watch a news program where the newscaster is wearing wool suit, a 720p panel would render his/her suit with lots of jagged lines while with 1080p, it is easier to discern the fabric himulmols because the lines are cleaner.

At close viewing, a 720p panel makes complexion look lined as in masked on a fine net; a 1080p panel makes complexion look naturally homogeneous, because the masking net has even finer pitch.

At close viewing, the resolution lines of a 720p panel look like fine lines.  For a 1080p panel, the pitch is even smaller, that instead of seeing lines, you'd see mosquitoes.

Those are the main reasons why you can possibly sit closer on 1080p sets.  

Exactly, a more densely packed pixel or better dot pitch defines better image resolution

[mcjefferson]

very interesting thread..

happy na ko sa pany 32x10 ko with my sammy fullHD htz210 as my dvd upscaler very clear when watching
1080p DVD movies.

[fakuryu]

yung link na pinost ko, nde ganun kalaki difference ng 1080p sa 720p unless na may plano ka manood ng sobrang lapit sa TV at malaki screen mo. sa tingin ko, kung ang viewing distance mo ay 6ft above, okay na yung 720p na 42 incher with regards sa sinabi ni av_phile1, sa tingin ko masyado pa maliit ang 42 incher para sa 1080p with a normal viewing distance... unless na mag 50 incher kayo.

so parang ganito:

viewing distance is about 6-15ft away

42 inchers and below, 720p is okay

42 inchers and above, specifically, 50 inchers and above, then it should be 1080p

so a 1080p signal scaled to a 720p with a 42incher below with a distance of 6-15 ft, wont really make a difference.

para sa mga 32 inchers naman, get the 720p, yung price difference sa 32 inchers na 1080p is more than enough to buy a decent HT system. you will not even see the difference sa pq unless sobrang taas na ng contrast ratio ng 1080p na 32 incher

[bachwitz]

From the same article, highlights mine

"Katzmaier stands by his previous analysis: The extra sharpness afforded by the 1080p televisions he's seen is noticeable only when watching 1080i or 1080p sources on a larger screens, say 55 inches and bigger, or with projectors that display a wall-size picture. Katzmaier also says that the main real-world advantage of 1080p is not the extra sharpness you'll be seeing, but instead, the smaller, more densely packed pixels. In other words, you can sit closer to a 1080p television and not notice any pixel structure, such as stair-stepping along diagonal lines, or the screen-door effect (where you can actually see the space between the pixels). This advantage applies regardless of the quality of the source."

He didn't mention it, but that's my point - the dot pitch.  More pixels per square inch or greater density of pixels.  And that only cones with a higher resolution, regardless of screen size - 32 or 42 or 55.  You can sit closer to the screen and enjoy 1080p resolution without being distracted from all those pixel dots.  In tagalog. mas siksik ang pixels.  With 720p on a 42" you'll see more  of those pixel dots than if it were 1080p native at the same 4-5 fit viewing distance.

But I digress when he said it can only be seen at 55" or higher. It depends on your viewing distance.  You won't notice it even on a 62" monitor if you're seated 30ft away.  Like I said, even a 22" montor can benefit from 1080p when seated 1-2ft away. So if we're talking about typical TV viewing distances at 6ft to 10ft, 1080p becomes advantageous starting with 42" LCD TVs.  

and the budget!  

On my case I dont like to watch very close to the tv. Our eyes are not like the hawk's which can see a object "anomorphically".

So unless your a videophile who can distinguished significant video details and have enough spare dough to spend. Go for the 1080p whether 22" display.

But if your gunning for the 50'' and above, Its mandatory to go with displays higher than 720p.