Author Topic: Separation of church and state  (Read 30458 times)

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Offline dorian_gray

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Separation of church and state
« on: Feb 19, 2010 at 09:11 AM »
Mods, please merge this thread if there is already an existing one.

It is just strange that we have this in the Philippine constitution and yet it is not being followed. One of the major reasons why I think this should be enforced is

Taxation-

I think it is unfair for everyone to work so hard in her profession and yet some people are exempt from doing so.

I have a noble job as a teacher and I am very glad to pay my taxes but it makes me sad that others don't.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #1 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 09:32 AM »
Kaya nga maraming pastor/minister/priest na mas pinili nila ang ganitong vocation kasi they dont need to pay their taxes... padamihin mo lang ang members mo... marami nang income ang church mo ang being a priest/pastor/minister you have all the authority saan mo gagamitin ang mga pera.

Sa Pilipinas, there are 4 ways to get rich.

1. build a church
2. magnakaw (includes corruption)
3. build your own business
4. be successful in your work


additional: if you believe in riches trough chance (easy money)
5. manalo sa lotto
« Last Edit: Feb 20, 2010 at 07:03 PM by dpogs »
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Offline choy

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #2 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 09:33 AM »
they get tax breaks anywhere else in the world that have more secular societies than the Philippines

besides, the Catholic Church is the largest charity organization in the world.  charity organizations are tax exempt as well.  so its not just the religious side

Offline dpogs

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #3 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 09:58 AM »
hindi lang naman dapat titingnan ang church and state sepaation in term of taxes...



pati sa pamamalakad.... at sa pagdidikta sa takbo ng politika....

- rally
- election (wala dapat block voting) every church leaders must teach their members to choose their own candidate
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Offline gunslinger

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #4 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 10:14 AM »
The representatives of the different churches/religions here in pinas are too meddlesome. Nakalimutan na talaga nila kung ano ba talaga ang purpose ng vocation nila.

Church being a charity institution? I seldom see them helping out the poor even in their own community.

Picture this: In our province, there is a place we call the Archbishop's Palace which is actually a mansion. I was able to see it from the inside once when I attended a wedding ceremony conducted there. It is a very lavished place with all the modern comforts known to man. Outside this mansion, there are around 20-30 families living in shanties resting on the walls of its fence. It's been years but the informal settlers are still there. While the mansion had been renovated a couple of times and the garage is now overflowing with luxury cars.

I am not saying that this is a representation of the whole but as long as its there, it can't help but remind me of its failure to live up to its real purpose.
I can stop speaking but I cannot so easily silence my thoughts...

Offline dpogs

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #5 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 10:32 AM »
The representatives of the different churches/religions here in pinas are too meddlesome. Nakalimutan na talaga nila kung ano ba talaga ang purpose ng vocation nila.


they are not just meddling... they also join the politics and at the same leader of their church.


every church member (especially their leader) must follow all the government policy.
and a political leader must not act as if he/she owns the church... he/she must behave as regular member of the church.

inside the church the leader is the priest/pastor/minister
outside the church the leader is government officials.


what religion ang kadalasang nakikialam sa isyo ng ating bansa?
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Offline dorian_gray

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #6 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 11:18 AM »
Tapos yung mga rape, pedophilia at sexual harassment charges laban sa mga pari, dinededma pa.

Baka kasi siguro mapunta sa impyerno yung magkakaso sa mga paring ito.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #7 on: Feb 19, 2010 at 01:04 PM »
Tapos yung mga rape, pedophilia at sexual harassment charges laban sa mga pari, dinededma pa.

Baka kasi siguro mapunta sa impyerno yung magkakaso sa mga paring ito.

the vatican is too powerful for them...
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Offline choy

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #8 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 04:56 AM »
the vatican is too powerful for them...

as if may power ang Vatican sa Pilipinas

it doesn't even have its own army

Offline choy

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #9 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 04:57 AM »
Tapos yung mga rape, pedophilia at sexual harassment charges laban sa mga pari, dinededma pa.

Baka kasi siguro mapunta sa impyerno yung magkakaso sa mga paring ito.

sino ang nag-de-deadma?  can you substantiate your claim?  otherwise, you're just making something up in an effort to discredit an institution you are personally against

Offline dpogs

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #10 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 05:05 AM »
as if may power ang Vatican sa Pilipinas

it doesn't even have its own army

power doesnt always involve an army...

in general sense... Vatican is too powerful... very influential...
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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #11 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 05:21 AM »
as if may power ang Vatican sa Pilipinas

it doesn't even have its own army

Whatever the Vatican lobbies for in the Philippines, they will usually get it.

besides, the Catholic Church is the largest charity organization in the world.

Do we have figures to support this? 

Offline choy

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #12 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 05:22 AM »
power doesnt always involve an army...

in general sense... Vatican is too powerful... very influential...

can you substantiate this claim?  otherwise this is only your personal opinion

i don't see any kind of influence the Vatican has outside of Catholics.  heck, if they're that influential with Catholics, none will be sinning and going against the teachings of the Church

if the Vatican is powerful, why can't they set-up a legal and free church in China?
if the Vatican is powerful, why are there so many countries with abortion, same-sex marriage, divorce, etc?

Offline choy

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #13 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 05:28 AM »
Whatever the Vatican lobbies for in the Philippines, they will usually get it.

can you substantiate this?

because anyone who understands how the hierarchy of the Church works would know that this is not true

Do we have figures to support this? 

http://www.zenit.org/article-22024?l=english

a vast majority of Charities in the world are religious based.  and the biggest among them are Catholic charities, like Caritas

Offline dpogs

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #14 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 05:41 AM »
can you substantiate this claim?  otherwise this is only your personal opinion

i don't see any kind of influence the Vatican has outside of Catholics.  heck, if they're that influential with Catholics, none will be sinning and going against the teachings of the Church

if the Vatican is powerful, why can't they set-up a legal and free church in China?
if the Vatican is powerful, why are there so many countries with abortion, same-sex marriage, divorce, etc?

http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/15-Nov-2006.html
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican46.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican20.htm
http://www.cephas-library.com/catholic/catholic_vatican_in_world_politics_chpt_3.html

still wondering why vatican cannot setup a free church in china... why imorality is in abundance.... Vatican or Catholic is too busy meddling in politics.
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Offline choy

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #15 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 05:50 AM »
LOL

how i wish it was true.  it would eliminate a lot of the world's problems.  fact is its not

like i said, anyone who actually knows how the Catholic Church hierarchy works, would know thats not the case

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #16 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 06:03 AM »
LOL

how i wish it was true.  it would eliminate a lot of the world's problems.  fact is its not

like i said, anyone who actually knows how the Catholic Church hierarchy works, would know thats not the case

di po talga maeliminate yang world's problems... kasi nga sila ang cause ng world's problems...

the problem is Vatican is nakikiasawsaw sa politika...

sa atin panahon pa ng kastila yan eh... sino ang linalapitan ng mga gobernadorcillo para makuha nila ang pabor ng espanya...???

regarding sa RH bill.... sino ang unang kinokonsider ng mga kandidato ngayon??? majority of the population... ano ang religioin ng majority sa atin... inaabangan ng mga alagad ng simbahang katoliko ang sinumang susuporta sa RH bill and malamang lamang wala doon ang suporta ng CBBP...
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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #17 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 06:08 AM »
can you substantiate this?

because anyone who understands how the hierarchy of the Church works would know that this is not true

There are backchannels (e.g. meetings and phone calls) that the Church have leveraged for over a millenia.  

In the Philippines, the only reason why the FVR administration had some degree of success with birth control was because FVR is a staunch Methodist.

http://www.zenit.org/article-22024?l=english

a vast majority of Charities in the world are religious based.  and the biggest among them are Catholic charities, like Caritas

Do you a third-party source other than a propaganda tool of the Vatican?  Verified statistics and figures would also be good. 

Offline choy

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #18 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 06:20 AM »
There are backchannels (e.g. meetings and phone calls) that the Church have leveraged for over a millenia.  

In the Philippines, the only reason why the FVR administration had some degree of success with birth control was because FVR is a staunch Methodist.

this sounds like nothing more than a conspiracy theory.  unless you can validate this claim


Do you a third-party source other than a propaganda tool of the Vatican?  Verified statistics and figures would also be good. 

google it.  there is no world-wide ranking, and Catholic charities are split into many different organizations on different levels.  Caritas is the most recognizable and largest, but you have many smaller charity work being done by missionaries and convents run by nuns, something similar to what Mother Theresa and the Missionaries of Charity

Offline dpogs

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #19 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 06:24 AM »
maybe you need to dig deeper sa history ng vatican/roman catholics...
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Offline choy

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #20 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 06:28 AM »
maybe you need to dig deeper sa history ng vatican/roman catholics...

i have

have you?

and by digging deeper, i mean look for actual facts.  not read Dan Brown fictional novels

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #21 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 06:32 AM »
deeper... lalim laliman mo pa ng kunti... malapit lapit na yan...
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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #22 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 06:36 AM »
this sounds like nothing more than a conspiracy theory.  unless you can validate this claim

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=72353

"Ramos charged that Mrs. Arroyo’s “flip-flopping” family planning policy seemed to be caused by her “unwarranted subservience” to the Catholic Church that is strongly opposed to contraceptives."


google it.  there is no world-wide ranking, and Catholic charities are split into many different organizations on different levels.  Caritas is the most recognizable and largest, but you have many smaller charity work being done by missionaries and convents run by nuns, something similar to what Mother Theresa and the Missionaries of Charity

I did and the largest charity organizations in the world do not include the Catholic Church in any way shape or form.

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #23 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 06:44 AM »
http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=72353

"Ramos charged that Mrs. Arroyo’s “flip-flopping” family planning policy seemed to be caused by her “unwarranted subservience” to the Catholic Church that is strongly opposed to contraceptives."

i don't see the Vatican there
the CBCP is representative of the Church and are in charge of the various arch-diocese in the Philippines

to let you know, each archbishop who heads their own archdiocese is responsible for their own terriroty.  the Pope or anyone in the Vatican wouldn't meddle in a local issue unless is has a greater impact to the world (then its not a local issue anymore) although nothing actually prevents them from making public comments (Hollywood celebrities make public comments as well, does that influence national policies?  who knows, maybe)


I did and the largest charity organizations in the world do not include the Catholic Church in any way shape or form.

LOL
like i mentioned, it doesn't say Catholic Church outright, but the various organizations that represent the Catholic Church and are part of the Catholic Church, like Caritas.  and usually each local diocese would have their own charities for their own communities

collectively these comprises the largest charity in the world, as all are under the umbrella of the Catholic Church.  for different purposes and reasons, they have to be represented as separate and smaller organizations

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #24 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 06:47 AM »
saan naggaling ang pera ng catholics?
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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #25 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 07:15 AM »
i don't see the Vatican there
the CBCP is representative of the Church and are in charge of the various arch-diocese in the Philippines

I may have misunderstood your statement.  Being a non-religious person, I always looked at the Vatican as being the de facto head of the Catholic Church and custodian of doctrine and canon.  I always thought the CBCP would not deviate from these and is answerable to the Vatican, hence, I concluded that CBCP lobbying in the Philippines equates to that of the Vatican.

LOL
like i mentioned, it doesn't say Catholic Church outright, but the various organizations that represent the Catholic Church and are part of the Catholic Church, like Caritas.  and usually each local diocese would have their own charities for their own communities

collectively these comprises the largest charity in the world, as all are under the umbrella of the Catholic Church.  for different purposes and reasons, they have to be represented as separate and smaller organizations

There should be some form of documentation regarding their scope and size.  There is a financial aspect to this, as we all know. There seems to be nothing but purely anecdotal evidence out there.

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #26 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 07:22 AM »
saan naggaling ang pera ng catholics?

the same place where all charities get their money

donations

Offline choy

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #27 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 07:41 AM »
I may have misunderstood your statement.  Being a non-religious person, I always looked at the Vatican as being the de facto head of the Catholic Church and custodian of doctrine and canon.  I always thought the CBCP would not deviate from these and is answerable to the Vatican, hence, I concluded that CBCP lobbying in the Philippines equates to that of the Vatican.

the way the heirarcy is setup is that it is not a centralized governing body where the Pope micromanages everything.  with the Church being present in most countries in the world, it would be impossible to do so.  the Church hierarchy would be more or less like the government of Canada (the US by comparisson is still more centralized than Canada).  each province in Canada is independent of each other, each with its own laws, each with its own government.  taxation and government services are handled by each province separately although some are handled on a national level, most still lies with each province.

now, with the Vatican, yes there is a central belief and the Vatican handles this.  being One Church, all bishops must be in communion with the bishop of Rome, or more popularly known as the Pope.  which means dogmatic teachings are uniform across the entire Church.  but, each bishop has independent rule of their respective territories.  meaning they can impose their own rules and regulations that are not covered by doctrines and are not in violation of any doctrines

for example, in Canada the only holidays of obligation besides sundays are Christmas and New Year.  in the Philippines, it includes December 8 as a holiday of obligation

other varyinig practices are the use of altar girls (instead of exclusively boys) which again the local archbishop may decide for or against.

technically, each archbishop may enact a rule independent of another bishop.  so some practices can be different in the Archiocese of Manila compared to Cubao.  but most countries like the Philippines would have a national body of bishops such as the CBCP so as that policy can be uniform throught the country

the CBCP would not deviate from the doctrinal teachings of the Church.  but they don't have to have the permission of the Vatican, or orders from the Vatican for them to act on something they feel they need to do.  when Cardinal Sin decided to rally the people against Marcos, its his decision, not the Vaticans.  i'm not sure but they may also be notifying the Vatican of such actions so that the Vatican can evaluate and see if they are violating any church doctrine.  but in most cases they are independent in their decisions or actions


There should be some form of documentation regarding their scope and size.  There is a financial aspect to this, as we all know. There seems to be nothing but purely anecdotal evidence out there.

the bigger charities like Caritas would have, but the smaller ones may or may not.  but you can count that its presence is wide reaching, as every locale that has a church would definitely have a local charity attached to it, and even in far flung areas you will see missionaries bringing food and medicine to people

with or without any hard data, its a fact that the number of charities is dominated by religious based charities, and the biggest of these religions is the Catholic Church

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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #28 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 11:21 AM »
di ba dapat... hindi namamalimos ang simbahan sa kung sino sino lang... they even ask politics to donates in their charity...

di ba dapat ang self funding org or ibig ko sabihin... givings, offerings must exclusively for members only.
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Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #29 on: Feb 20, 2010 at 06:35 PM »
Quote
1. build a church

akala ko ako lang ang me ganitong iniisip.....talaga nga....siksik, liglig at umaapaw ang negosyo ng relihiyon dito sa bansa natin.... ;D
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