Topic: Separation of church and state

[dpogs]

Teka muna, kala ko ba the ALAM nyong end of the world is near ...so paano naging surprise yon?

parang magnanakaw yan.... alam natin may magnanakaw sa gabi... pero kung anong araw at oras siya magnanakaw di natin alam...

same also sa end of the world... alam natin malapit nang magunaw ang mundo (kung ang nagpredict nito nagsabi noong unang panahon pa how much more mas malapit tayo ngayon).... pero ang araw at oras hindi natin alam....

Oh btw, scientists describe earth's destruction by black hole as "spaghettified" - no fire, just like going through a noodle maker.

and then... alisin na natin ang possibility na magunaw ang mundo sa pamamagitan ng black hole... because earth will be destroyed by fire.

[oweidah]

fire and brimstone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_and_brimstone

__
from the net>
http://www.answering-christianity.com/que12.htm
How will Allah Almighty Judge us in the Day of Judgement?   How does Allah Almighty see the sin between man and man

Conclusion:
Every little atom of good and evil an individual makes in life will be recorded for him, and he shall see it in the Day of Judgement.  Allah Almighty will then make His ultimate decision for that person on whether he shall go to hell or to heaven.
___

http://theauthenticbase.wordpress.com/2010/02/22/ahadeeth-of-tawheed-prompting-a-dying-person-to-say-the-shahaahdah/

[indie boi]

Ano ang ibig mong sabihin sa "malapit nang magunaw ang mundo"? You've just given me a time referrent, which is "near" (english of "malapit" if I have translated it correctly).

[Clondalkin]

parang magnanakaw yan.... alam natin may magnanakaw sa gabi... pero kung anong araw at oras siya magnanakaw di natin alam...

same also sa end of the world... alam natin malapit nang magunaw ang mundo (kung ang nagpredict nito nagsabi noong unang panahon pa how much more mas malapit tayo ngayon).... pero ang araw at oras hindi natin alam....

Dpogs, ikaw at yung ka-grupo mo ang siguradong malapit nang magunaw ang mundo.  Sa kabilang panig, naniniwala man kami na the end of time will eventually come, eh we don't know when.  We just want to live a good life na may compassion sa kapwa...and we dont even want to judge other people's chances to go to heaven.

Kung yung nag-predict nito nagsabi noong unang panahon pa, SYEMPRE, mas malapit na nga dapat dahil ilang taon/siglo na dumaan.  Parang style Pinoy productivity yan eh...kelan deadline?...malapit na...tanungin mo ulit after a year..mas malapit na...so kelan talaga?...basta lumalapit na dapat...matatapos at matatapos din pagdating ng panahon

[oweidah]

To emphasize the juiciest line -- "We want you to come with us". Hanep talaga.

natumbok mo!

_______________

sayang walang kasapi ng ibang relihiyon para malaman natin ang pananaw nila.
sa mga interesado, impormasyon mula sa internet >

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/204/?gclid=CPGQiZKasKACFQkwpAodew_CUQ

How to Convert to Islam and Become a Muslim

The Holy Quran and Hadeeth (prophetic sayings) both stress the importance of following Islam. God states:

“...The only religion in the sight of God is Islam...” (Quran 3:19)

In another verse of the Holy Quran, God states:

“If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (their selves in the Hellfire).” (Quran 3:85)

In another saying, Muhammad, the Prophet of God, said:

“Whoever testifies that there in none worthy of being worshipped but God, Who has no partner, and that Muhammad is His slave and Prophet, and that Jesus is the Slave of God, His Prophet, and His word[1] which He bestowed in Mary and a spirit created from Him; and that Paradise (Heaven) is true, and that the Hellfire is true, God will eventually admit him into Paradise, according to his deeds.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

The Prophet of God, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon him, also reported:

“Indeed God has forbidden to reside eternally in Hell the person who says: “I testify that none has the right to worship except Allah (God),’ seeking thereby the Face of God.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

[dpogs]

Dpogs, ikaw at yung ka-grupo mo ang siguradong malapit nang magunaw ang mundo.  Sa kabilang panig, naniniwala man kami na the end of time will eventually come, eh we don't know when.  We just want to live a good life na may compassion sa kapwa...and we dont even want to judge other people's chances to go to heaven.[/s]

there is no such "chances to go to heaven". heaven (or salvation) is not a chance... it is a gift. we just need to receive it.

"going to heaven" is One Way. and we must decide by ourselves if we want to take that Road.


we care too much of our life here in earth,
and yet we dont care about our souls...

if we really care for those people around us... then start telling them whats wrong with them... and if they knew what is wrong with them... start telling them the good news - inspite of our wrongs (sins etc) God is faithful to forgive us... God said : "Come now, and let us reason together though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

[bumblebee]

So, for you, walang predestination? Free will lang talaga?

[dpogs]

So, for you, walang predestination? Free will lang talaga?

it was already explained sa thread under predestination.

please read also their explanation of unforgivable sin : blasphemy of the holy spirit.

[bumblebee]

it was already explained sa thread under predestination.

please read also their explanation of unforgivable sin : blasphemy of the holy spirit.

Ang gulo na nung thread na yun e. I'm not after their explanation. I'm after yours. Yes or no lang.

[Clondalkin]

Ang gulo na nung thread na yun e. I'm not after their explanation. I'm after yours. Yes or no lang.

And the gist of Dpogs posts are always intersecting at one point anyways, so doesn't really matter where it is posted I guess. 

[bumblebee]

Just noticed. Am I commiting blasphemy?

[indie boi]

Oh yes you are -- so is all of the free thinking group here.

[bumblebee]

Ulitin ko lang yung tanong. How do you know that judgment hasn't come yet?

[indie boi]

Ulitin ko lang yung tanong. How do you know that judgment hasn't come yet?

I await the answer with much excitement. 

[dpogs]

Ulitin ko lang yung tanong. How do you know that judgment hasn't come yet?

because I am still here.  

because the salt still here.  

because there are still people who havent heard the Word of God.  

because God still waiting for you to accept Him as your personal Saviour. 

[indie boi]

because I am still here.  

because the salt still here.  

because there are still people who havent heard the Word of God.  

because God still waiting for you to accept Him as your personal Saviour.  

Kakaiba talaga...  I do hope you're just joking.

[oweidah]

Kakaiba talaga...  I do hope you're just joking.

alien!  

[oweidah]

because there are still people who havent heard the Word of God.  

so you are a preacher, pastor dpogs? 

sa mindanao, sigurado marami pa doon.

[dorian_gray]

so PinoyDVD member ang makakapagligtas sa ating lahat?

[Clondalkin]

because I am still here.  

because the salt still here.  

because there are still people who havent heard the Word of God.  

because God still waiting for you to accept Him as your personal Saviour. 

The first line suggests finite time, the next 3 imply indeterminate period - could be 1 year, could be a century, could be a billion years.

[choy]

It's near if you convert the paleontologic age of earth to 4,000 years...that's a factor of 4,000/4,500,000,000

Which reminds me, I recently watched a doc about possible ways to end the world

1.  Yellowstone Park eruption
2.  Worldwide spread of deadly virus
3.  All out nuclear war
4.  The Large Hadron Collider creating a small black hole
5.  A black hole that comes dangerously close to earth
6.  Alien invasion
7.  Meteor collision
8.  6 degrees of average temperature increase

On a personal note, I have been preparing for the big one in Tokyo since I came here in 1990.  The Japanese have been preparing for that since before I was born.  

thats not even the entire list!  massive solar flares that can bombard the earth with radiation and strip it of most of its atmosphere

so many things that can end the world

[choy]

Exactamundo.

I've been hearing doomsayers ever since I was in catholic school. Even the priests who were part of the group that began the indoctrination for my group who was about to enter priesthood said much the same thing. The visuals they used though were the TV movie "The Day After" and the Cold War scare. That was back in the late 80s.

Then you've got loonies like Father Tropa back in the 70s.

Catholicism itself is not a "the end is near" religion.  although it does recognize that we are at the end times, that at any moment the world may and can come to an end.  its message is to prepare for the eventual end, either of the world or our own life.  both are guaranteed to happen, only question is when.

[choy]

paano natin i-define ang salitang born-again?

"born-again" kadalasang tawag sa pentecostal denomination (those who speak in tounges, holy laughter, and the likes)

or

"born-again" by the spirit. pinawalang-sala. a true christian (kahit walang religion)

funny i keep hearing this "Christian kahit walang religion"

kung wala kang religion, how can you be trully Christian?

define religion nga?

[choy]

again: salvation doesnt involve any membership in the church.

we are speaking about salvation... not membership sa kung anong denomination man yan...

salvation is being member of a Church
don't propagate this lie

Christ and His Church are described in two things that cannot be separated
1. Christ is the groom and the Church is His bride
2. Christ is the head and the Church is the body

now, if you do not belong to the Church, then how can you be one with Jesus?

[choy]

+1


and Peter never set a foot in ROme.

so where was he beheaded and burried?

[dpogs]

funny i keep hearing this "Christian kahit walang religion"

kung wala kang religion, how can you be trully Christian?

define religion nga?

define "true Christian"?

salvation is being member of a Church
don't propagate this lie

Christ and His Church are described in two things that cannot be separated
1. Christ is the groom and the Church is His bride
2. Christ is the head and the Church is the body

now, if you do not belong to the Church, then how can you be one with Jesus?

how to be a member of that Church (in other words - how to be save)?

then how can you be one with Jesus?

how can you be one with Jesus?

[dpogs]

so where was he beheaded and burried?

no one knows... the Bible never mentioned where Peter died...




The Bible never mentions Simon Peter's death. Acts of the Apostles mentions the imprisonment and miraculous release of Peter, but does not say anything about his subsequent death, even though the book was written around the end of the century, long after Peter would have died.

However, the mid-second century pope Anicetus (156-166) said that Peter was beheaded by Nero in Rome. The reason for this claim was that he had became locked in a conflict with Polycarp of Smyrna. Polycarp had tried to win the argument by insisting that he spoke with the authority of the apostle John. In response, Anicetus told of Peter's beheading and said that he spoke with the authority of Peter. Then in the third century, the Church Father Origen changed the story somewhat, saying that Peter, condemned to crucifixion, felt himself unworthy to be crucified the same way as his Lord, and so chose crucifixion upside down.

In fact, we do not know how or where Simon Peter died.

[choy]

In Matthew 16:19, Jesus said he will give (in the future) the keys to Peter: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (NIV)

Catholic doctrine interprets the keys to mean the power to bind and to loose: Behold he [Peter] received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the power of binding and loosing is committed to him ... (Catholic Encyclopedia).

But in Matthew 18:18, speaking to all His disciples, Jesus gave the "power of binding and loosing" to all of His disciples (including Peter): I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven (NIV)

Jesus was speaking to all disciples, not to Peter only.  Notice that in His lengthy answer starting from Mat. 18:2, Jesus was talking to all disciples, because He was answering all of them:  At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" (Matthew 18:1, NIV)

the power of binding and loosing was subsequently given to all apostles, but the keys weren't
the authority to loose and bind wasn't directly tied to the keys.  notice it was never mentioned that the other apostles received the keys.  although that is the Orthodox belief, that is why they think all Churches are co-equal.  i mean, even the Orthodox believe that Peter had a place among the apostles, first among equals.  more like knights of the round table and he was King Arthur, rather than an absolute monarchy.  but tradition has shown otherwise that Peter had the final say over the other Apostles in cases where there are questions or disputes, like the first council of Jerusalem

Peter did not remain "first among the apostles".  It is true that he was the first in the list of original apostles.  But in the first Church Council, which took place in Jerusalem (not in Rome with Peter as the head), it was James who was the leader.  It was James who had the final word on the issue being discussed: When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. ...  It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God (Acts 15:13;19, NIV)  In Galatians 2:9, Paul confirms James' leadership by listing him first in his enumeration of the pillars: James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. (NIV)

James was the leader/bishop of the Church in Jerusalem, as was the other Apostles were heads of the respective Churches they put up around the known world.  they all came to Jerusalem for the council to decide on whether the Gentiles need to be circumsized and to address the issue of the Gentiles being treated as a lower class compared to the Jewish converts which Paul brought up

Before Peter agreed with Paul's view at the Jerusalem Council, Paul previously rebuked Peter in Antioch "to his face", and in public, because Peter was "clearly in the wrong":

When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.  When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?   (Galatians 2:11-14, NIV)

This passage demonstrates that Peter was not occupying the position of an infallible Pope.  It also shows that Paul considered Peter as an equal, with Peter having jurisdiction over the Jews, and Paul having jurisdiction over the Gentiles.

there's nothing that would take Peter's authority if Paul or any other apostle would openly criticize him for something.

infallability, even today, doesn't mean every word is law.  infallibility just means that a pronouncement can be made with authority that something is to become a law.  but this doesn't mean every word is infallible.  if the pope says the sky is red, it doesn't mean every Catholic will believe the sky is red.  it doesn't work that way.

Thus, Paul says: For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. ... They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. (Galatians 2:8;9, NIV)

Clearly, if Peter's apostleship did not even extend to the Gentiles, then he could not have been "Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church".

Peter had to proclaim the gospel to the Jews in Rome, while Paul who's fluent in Greek and learned and can freely travel across the Roman empire would minister to most other areas, that is why Paul covered a lot of ground compared to the other Apostles.  not just because Peter's ministry doesn't cover Corinth or Galatia, doesn't mean he did not have authority over what is being taught in those areas.   you only have to look at how the Church is being run today to understand how it works.  a particular Bishop of an area runs that Area (ie Archdiocese of Manila) and is autonomous to other Bishops, including the Bishop of Rome (Pope).  the Pope doesn't go look at what is being done in Manila or the thousands of other Archdioceses around the world.  but if there are matters of the faith that needs to be decided, he is the supreme authority.

[choy]

no one knows... the Bible never mentioned where Peter died...




The Bible never mentions Simon Peter's death. Acts of the Apostles mentions the imprisonment and miraculous release of Peter, but does not say anything about his subsequent death, even though the book was written around the end of the century, long after Peter would have died.

However, the mid-second century pope Anicetus (156-166) said that Peter was beheaded by Nero in Rome. The reason for this claim was that he had became locked in a conflict with Polycarp of Smyrna. Polycarp had tried to win the argument by insisting that he spoke with the authority of the apostle John. In response, Anicetus told of Peter's beheading and said that he spoke with the authority of Peter. Then in the third century, the Church Father Origen changed the story somewhat, saying that Peter, condemned to crucifixion, felt himself unworthy to be crucified the same way as his Lord, and so chose crucifixion upside down.

In fact, we do not know how or where Simon Peter died.

there is such a thing as history

not just because the bible never mentioned it doesn't mean it didn't happen

Peter was killed in Rome during the time of Nero and was burred where St. Peter's Basilica stands today in the Vatican
the early Church fathers Tertullian and Origen attested to this

[choy]

define "true Christian"?

how to be a member of that Church (in other words - how to be save)?

how can you be one with Jesus?

be a part of His Church

Romans 12:4-8
4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.