Topic: Separation of church and state

[vx2]

the same place where all charities get their money

donations

Fact: the Catholic church has heavily invested monetary interests in SM Corp.

...and a lot of other corporations.

[dpogs]

Fact: the Catholic church has heavily invested monetary interests in SM Corp.

...and a lot of other corporations.

and of course this information came from a very reliable source...

[vx2]

Yes.

My distant cousin whose a priest and an accountant for the Catholic Church. He comes to an office in one of those buildings along MOA to do, in chinese for lack of better term, xiuxia (count money/magbilang ng pera).

Please dpogs, don't offend me by implying that I just make up information such as that.

[Klaus Weasley]

The seperation of Church and State in the Philippines is like traffic rules: They act more like suggestions rather than laws.

[dpogs]

Yes.

My distant cousin whose a priest and an accountant for the Catholic Church. He comes to an office in one of those buildings along MOA to do, in chinese for lack of better term, xiuxia (count money/magbilang ng pera).

Please dpogs, don't offend me by implying that I just make up information such as that.

no... im not implying taht you just make up that information ... its the other way around... im supporting your statement...

die hard catholics dont know really waht behind Roman Catholics... and to someone na magsasabi na may connection ang Catholics sa SM ay iyong may tunay lang na alam sa nangyayari, a very reliable source.

hope naintindihan mo ako... it is my belief and my stand that Vatican have power over politics. and that every religion in our country must not middle unless their life were in threat.

[choy]

so walang karapatan mag invest ang simbahan?

you're making it sound like its a criminal act

[dorian_gray]

Don't new priests swear to a life of poverty? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[oweidah]

Don't new priests swear to a life of poverty? Correct me if I'm wrong.

poverty chastity and obedience

pero napakayaman ng simbahan. partida na walang "ikapo"/tithe ang simbahang katoliko.

[dpogs]

so walang karapatan mag invest ang simbahan?

you're making it sound like its a criminal act

what is the main purpose of a church?

it is to spread its teaching or to invest in business???

[Nelson de Leon]

poverty chastity and obedience

pero napakayaman ng simbahan. partida na walang "ikapo"/tithe ang simbahang katoliko.

Bukod pa yun mga donations and fund raising for rebuilding churches etc.

[indie boi]

what is the main purpose of a church?

it is to spread its teaching or to invest in business???

I'm curious, in your congregation/gathering/church, what do you guys do with your tithes? Again, just curious.

[dpogs]

I'm curious, in your congregation/gathering/church, what do you guys do with your tithes? Again, just curious.

rest assure it is not use for politics.

[indie boi]

You never answered the question.

[dpogs]

PM you sir.

[choy]

Don't new priests swear to a life of poverty? Correct me if I'm wrong.

you are wrong

it depends on the religious order.  not every priest has a vow to poverty

besides, the Church as whole, its not like the money go to the priests.  its like saying the salespeople at SM are rich because SM has a lot of money

the Church as a charitable institution must also find ways to maximize the money it receives from donations.  and you can't always count on donations.  especially if the economy is bad, people won't give as much or not give at all.  what now in that instance?

[choy]

PM you sir.

bakit ka puro PM?

if you bear the truth and do nothing wrong, why afraid to tell the world?

[choy]

what is the main purpose of a church?

it is to spread its teaching or to invest in business???

bakit, sa tingin mo ba the Church can do its activites without money?

its not like you born agains aren't tithing your members.  the least in the Catholic Church, giving money is not mandatory

Churches use electricity and water, Churches has employees to pay, maintenance fees and other upkeep
if you send missionaries, you need money
if you send priests to distant barrios, again those are not free

and i'd like to see you prove that the Church is rich.  because those are nothing but hearsay.

[moejun]

i'd also like you to prove that the church isn't rich. that is also hearsay.

[choy]

i'd also like you to prove that the church isn't rich. that is also hearsay.

i'm not making the accusation, so you're the one who should bring your proof

[dpogs]

bakit, sa tingin mo ba the Church can do its activites without money?

its not like you born agains aren't tithing your members.  the least in the Catholic Church, giving money is not mandatory

Churches use electricity and water, Churches has employees to pay, maintenance fees and other upkeep
if you send missionaries, you need money
if you send priests to distant barrios, again those are not free

and i'd like to see you prove that the Church is rich.  because those are nothing but hearsay.

as i said earlier... the church main goal is to spread their teachings... not to have business to SM.

the church main source of income is its members (not in the public, bus, jeep, malls with donation box, etc)...

again... every church must not be affiliated to any business (private or public)... a church name must not be drag to any business issue.

if a church want a fund raising for some activity or special needs, they must encourage their members to give more money (and each member must think a way to generate fund pero hindi dapat gagamitin ang pangalan ng simbahan).

parang ganito... a church will have a free dental and medical mission. a pastor/priest/minister will encourage each members to give or commit certain amount of money. kung paano ipoproduce ng members ang money na ibibigay nila sa church wala nang pakialam doon ang church as long as they produce it sa tamang pamamaraan and hindi gagamitin ang pangalan ng simbahan.

come to think of it... a church will build a charity institution. and will seek help from different organization even if its not a member of the church.

a church must not build a charity institution if they cannot support it by their own. if a chruch want to build a charity institution that they cannot support... alisin mo sa koneksyon ng church.

theres lot of charitable institution that are not connected to any religous denomination.

the main goal of the church is to feed the hungry soul not the stomach. a man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God.

a group of people must choice.... it is to build a church (to meet people's spiritual need and to ease them from eternal sufferings) or to build a charity (to ease people's temporary sufferings such as luck of food and shelter... etc)....now if a these group of people decide to build both (church and charity) they must see to it that they support it by themselves, by their own members.

once again... church income must come solely to its members (hindi kung saan saang organization)... i think business establishment is right when they post in their door "No solicitation".

[oweidah]

OT. (pagpaumanhin niyo po)

@DPOGS

paki-usap lang po, huwag mo babuyin ang wikang Ingles sa mga posts mo.

inihambing ko ang "grammar" ng mga posts mo vs. sa mga p.m. mo sa akin. mukang sinasadya mo ang mga mali sa mga posts mo. ano kaya ang intensyon mo?

ok lang sa akin, wala ako pakialam kung ang miyembro ay tunay na may pagkukulang sa wikang ingles pero sa isang miyembro na galing sa UPLosBanos, BS statistics?, mahirap makapaniwala.

taga UPLB ka rin tenderfender....

UPLB din ako... taong labas (di nakaranas magdorm)...

BS Statistics Batch 97.

salamat.

[dpogs]

sir ojofool,

namemersonal ka ba or you just have doubt sa english ko.

Yes. I admit it. I came from UPLB and graduated by God's grace.

Galing ako sa Bicol province, graduated 7th place in a public national high school. What do you expect sa quality ng public school (hindi ko nilalahat).... I respect all my teachers but please everybody here in this forum know the disadvantages of a public school academically.

May phobia ako sa english since elementary. I like Filipino (its a lingua franca of our nation). I have adoration to Filipino language na naglead sa akin to mawalan ng gana sa english. without proper knowledge in english nkatapos ako ng elem and high school but i can understand very well english... i just dont have the ability to write it gramatically, vocabulary wise.

pass the UPCAT since mataas ang math and science rating ko compare sa vocabulary and reading comprehensions... medyo tumaas lang ang reading comprehension kasi kasama pa ang Filipino sa UPCAT before.

here comes UPLB.

believe it or not... i never took English 1 and English 2 or any English subject in GE course. I choose Filipino 1 and Filipino 2. i enroleed in experimental class of Natural Science in Filipino (with only 15 students enrolled). I choose Speech in Filipino rather than Speech in English. Ganito ako katakot sa english.

Now... maybe you amazed how i graduated in UPLB. If you are a UP students there is no such genious (although may mga mangilan ngilan dyan sa UP na genious talaga). For me being a UPLB is how to survive academically and to value environment at the same time (UPLB close to nature). its not how you are good in english or science... its how we survive.

Just to give you a hint... Im BS Statistics Batch 97... but I am Class 2007. It took me 10 years ot finish my course.

Now you are wondering bakit sometimes magaling ako sa english... everytime nagPM ako... pinagiisipan ko muna yan... whereas sa mga thread replies ko...mabilisan...ni wala na akong tyaga magcheck kung gramatically mali ako or di ko nagamit maayos ang vocabulary ko. its just sometimes... ideas is easy to explain in english than Filipino.

Hope malinaw na sa iyo.

Not UPLB student knew English perfectly... what is unique sa amign mga taga UP is "how we survived".

I may be have little knowledge sa English grammar... but I am very knowledgeable in Math and in Science. I am a mathematician not an english instructor or communication grad.


by the way my Special Problem/Thesis is regarding sa differences ng NSO and BAS regarding their differences in statistical methodology, sampling, formulas used, population control, finances and political issues concerns... were written in English (of course)... ask me how i wrote my thesis.... may editor ako.

[moejun]

i'm not making the accusation, so you're the one who should bring your proof

what accusation did i make? you're the one who said something about that being hearsay. now tell me, how are you so sure that all of that is just hearsay? how do you know that the church isn't rich? you seem to be so sure of yourself anyway, so go ahead.

[alistair]

I may be have little knowledge sa English grammar...

Sir, with all due respect, this is why I refrain from commenting or correcting your English, as I recognize not everybody uses English as their primary language.

but I am very knowledgeable in Math and in Science. I am a mathematician not an english instructor or communication grad.

Unfortunately, this is what strikes me as odd. Let's continue this in the Atheism/Agnosticism thread.

[dpogs]

You might be surprised also how I survived Thesis/SP presentation.

I convinced (i just cant believe how i convinced them) my panelist na I can deliver my message more accurately if they will allow me to speak in Filipino (in tagalog and in english).

i admit to them, na lahat ng GE communiation subject ay kinuha ko 'in Filipino'. and i can convey my ideas in Filipino (without language boundary) maliban sa mga mathematical terms/definition.

Sir allistair, is right. i use Filipino as my primary language... kaya kahit mahirap para sa akin... iyong mga idea na maganda ipaliwanag in english as much as i can... ginagawa kong english.

its not about langugae.... its about ideas. and ideas hindi maipapaliwanag kung walang language but it doesnt mean na english lagnuage ang gamitin natin. all languages are equal... there is no inferior languages. and i am proud that i considered Filipino as my primary language, english is just but secondary.


Ill explain also to you bakit it took me 10years to finish my course.

maraming factors ang pagtatapos ng pag-aaral. hindi lang mental capability (i believe lahat ng pumasa ng UPCAT maaaring magtapos ng kurso nila. sipag at tiyaga lang), but also economically wise. marami ang hindi nakakapagtapos sa UP because of financial (thier parents cannot support them anymore)... i am a working student. at sa labas ako nagwowork. and i just decided na unahin ko na muna work ko before study... for 7 years... i work to survive in Laguna and later lived in the church teaching high school mathematics with an allowance of 1500/mnt (since food/shelter ay libre naman). and eventually, decided to finish my course readmitted (AWOL status) and finish all the remaining subject without failing once.

but as you can see... I graduated from one of the reputable universities in the philippines but i never mentioned it in this post.

kasi dito hindi nagmamatter kung saan ka grumadweyt... nagmamatter dito kung nasa matino tayong pag-iisip o hindi. kung may moralidad tayo o wala.

[choy]

as i said earlier... the church main goal is to spread their teachings... not to have business to SM.

the church main source of income is its members (not in the public, bus, jeep, malls with donation box, etc)...

again... every church must not be affiliated to any business (private or public)... a church name must not be drag to any business issue.

if a church want a fund raising for some activity or special needs, they must encourage their members to give more money (and each member must think a way to generate fund pero hindi dapat gagamitin ang pangalan ng simbahan).

parang ganito... a church will have a free dental and medical mission. a pastor/priest/minister will encourage each members to give or commit certain amount of money. kung paano ipoproduce ng members ang money na ibibigay nila sa church wala nang pakialam doon ang church as long as they produce it sa tamang pamamaraan and hindi gagamitin ang pangalan ng simbahan.

come to think of it... a church will build a charity institution. and will seek help from different organization even if its not a member of the church.

a church must not build a charity institution if they cannot support it by their own. if a chruch want to build a charity institution that they cannot support... alisin mo sa koneksyon ng church.

theres lot of charitable institution that are not connected to any religous denomination.

the main goal of the church is to feed the hungry soul not the stomach. a man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God.

a group of people must choice.... it is to build a church (to meet people's spiritual need and to ease them from eternal sufferings) or to build a charity (to ease people's temporary sufferings such as luck of food and shelter... etc)....now if a these group of people decide to build both (church and charity) they must see to it that they support it by themselves, by their own members.

once again... church income must come solely to its members (hindi kung saan saang organization)... i think business establishment is right when they post in their door "No solicitation".

and whats wrong with that?  if by making good investment you can make more money to help more people, or are you forgetting the Parable of the Talents?

who made these rules?
it certainly is not in the Bible, or any Sacred Tradition, or any Church teaching

you're making rules up where there are no rules

putting your money in investment doesn't mean you're affiliated to that company.  its the same as putting your money in a bank.  wala ka bang alam sa investment?

investing in stock is high yeild, high risk.  you make more money at the risk of losing more if the stock were to lose money.  its not like the Church actually owns a part of SM or SM owns a part of the Church.  its an investment.

its the same as putting your money in the bank.  every time you put your money in the bank, are you affiliated with the bank?  no.  but the bank uses your money to fund its transactions, its business.  in return, they give you interest, a share of the earnings because you let them use your money.

again, saan nanggaling itong rule na ito?  you're not just making things up and becoming self righteous.  you're like the hypocrite pharisees in the bible, making up rules to elevate yourself as righteous while trying to lower the others as sinners.

there is nothing that prohibits any religious organization from performing legal business transactions that would help generate interest in money it is holding.

theres lot of charitable institution that are not connected to any religous denomination.

the main goal of the church is to feed the hungry soul not the stomach. a man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God.

[choy]

what accusation did i make? you're the one who said something about that being hearsay. now tell me, how are you so sure that all of that is just hearsay? how do you know that the church isn't rich? you seem to be so sure of yourself anyway, so go ahead.

maybe you're not the first one to bring it up, but you're siding with those who say the Church has a lot of money

i'm saying that the Church does not have as much money as a lot of people think it has

the burden of proof are on the accusers.  innocent 'til proven guilty, right?  so prove that the Church has a lot of money.  if you side with the accusers, then you have to bring proof.  otherwise, all that is accused is just hearsay and baseless

[indie boi]

Again, with all due respect -- but Choy and Dpogs' discussions clearly shows that despite a supposed central basis for morality, which is the bible, they still can't even see eye to eye. I guess it shoots down the notion that the bible should the sole basis of morality for everyone.

[alistair]

investing in stock is high yeild, high risk.  you make more money at the risk of losing more if the stock were to lose money.  its not like the Church actually owns a part of SM or SM owns a part of the Church.  its an investment.

Sir, pardon me, but doesn't buying shares mean owning a part of the company you invest in? I'm not particular about the type of stock (preferred, common, participating) since that's not my field, but that's my general idea.

That, as far as responsible investment goes, investors should, ideally, invest in those companies not only because they agree with the business model, but with the corporate charter and support the corporate citizenship?

Of course, if you consider stocks purely an investment vehicle then it's all a matter of risk/return.

[indie boi]

I'm wondering, if all of the money the RC church gets is funneled back into charities and the upkeep of Vatican, how come it still hasn't declared bankruptcy? Or is a significant part of contributions being saved by the Church?