Author Topic: Separation of church and state  (Read 30438 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dorian_gray

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • DVD Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,028
  • Bakla ako...may angal?
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #60 on: Feb 23, 2010 at 03:41 PM »
I used to go to a Catholic school when I was a wee gay boy.

I remember being forced to sell raffle tickets or else I would not be able to graduate. The raffle was for a new building that the school wanted to build. I also remember that the raffle was not registered with the DTI. In the end, my parents were forced to buy all the tickets.

How come the church can do all these illegal and immoral acts?

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: [OT] Investment
« Reply #61 on: Feb 23, 2010 at 03:50 PM »
Sir, pardon me, but doesn't buying shares mean owning a part of the company you invest in? I'm not particular about the type of stock (preferred, common, participating) since that's not my field, but that's my general idea.

not always.  there are stocks that doesn't mean you own a portion of the company.  there are also stocks that don't even pay a dividend.

also, if you purchase stocks for the purpose of an investment portfolio, owning the company is the last thing on your mind.  what you want is to make a good profit on your investment

and most companies issue thousands, if not millions of shares that having a few hundred wouldn't really mean anything.

That, as far as responsible investment goes, investors should, ideally, invest in those companies not only because they agree with the business model, but with the corporate charter and support the corporate citizenship?

Of course, if you consider stocks purely an investment vehicle then it's all a matter of risk/return.

i always had a different idea of stocks when i was in the philippines.  but when i moved here to Canada, where you have long term investments for your retirement savings, i see these investment stocks in a different way.  and i think most people wherever they are in the world, use these stocks this way.  they're not concerned about ownership in the company, just making a profit off the investment.

for all we know the Church would have an independent financial adviser who would tell them which stocks to invest in

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #62 on: Feb 23, 2010 at 03:50 PM »
I'm wondering, if all of the money the RC church gets is funneled back into charities and the upkeep of Vatican, how come it still hasn't declared bankruptcy? Or is a significant part of contributions being saved by the Church?

of course it makes sense to save some for a rainy day

also, the truth about the Vatican is that hardly any money that goes into local dioceses would go to the Vatican.  like i said before, each diocese has autonomy under a bishop (or archbishop).  in fact, what donations the archdiocese of manila gets will not be shared with any other archdiocese in the Philippines.  the idea is to keep the money to help the community from where it comes from.  of course, there are regular contributions to larger charities which will then use the money for charitable functions in different parts of the country or even the world.  but thats only a small portion.  most of it will stay in the diocese for operating expenses and for charitable work within that same community

Offline alistair

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 348
  • Hi, I'm new here!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #63 on: Feb 23, 2010 at 04:47 PM »
also, the truth about the Vatican is that hardly any money that goes into local dioceses would go to the Vatican.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Vatican is far, far, wealthier than any local diocese can ever be. The papacy doesn't need our donations.

Offline indie boi

  • Kapitan
  • Trade Count: (+31)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,807
  • Twitter: @indieboi
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #64 on: Feb 23, 2010 at 04:55 PM »
Quote
of course it makes sense to save some for a rainy day

So the Church saves money. But if wealth is defined as the accumulation of resources, then, by that definition, it's safe to say that the Church is wealthy? It's savings will have to be in the hundreds of millions if not in the billions.

Just curious and thinking out loud.

Offline alistair

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 348
  • Hi, I'm new here!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #65 on: Feb 23, 2010 at 05:09 PM »
But if wealth is defined as the accumulation of resources, then, by that definition, it's safe to say that the Church is wealthy? It's savings will have to be in the hundreds of millions if not in the billions.
The Vatican's wealth was estimated by bankers to be between $10 to $15 billion.

In 1965.

Offline Verbl Kint

  • Trade Count: (+18)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,000
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 258
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #66 on: Feb 23, 2010 at 06:38 PM »
The Vatican's wealth was estimated by bankers to be between $10 to $15 billion.

In 1965.

This could be a tad conservative too due to the priceless artifacts in the Vatican's possession.

Offline vx2

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 458
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #67 on: Feb 23, 2010 at 07:01 PM »
Money and power.

What could go wrong?  ;D

Offline dorian_gray

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • DVD Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,028
  • Bakla ako...may angal?
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #68 on: Feb 24, 2010 at 06:31 AM »
Another influence of the church to our government is the misinformation on the use of contraceptives. Notice that I did not use the term "artificial contraceptives" because it is only in the Philippines that it is used.

And guess who popularized the term?

Almost all Filipinos I have met are very hesitant to buy and use condoms. In fact, they are ashamed to be seen  by another person with it. I know it is harsh to say but the church has successfully brainwashed us against the use of something that can protect us from diseases and can solve the problem of overpopulation.

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #69 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 02:05 AM »
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Vatican is far, far, wealthier than any local diocese can ever be. The papacy doesn't need our donations.

i don't know how much the Philippines gives to the Vatican, but here in North America there's a once a year collection specifically for the Vatican

they also make most of their money from tourists and tourism in general

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #70 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 02:09 AM »
The Vatican's wealth was estimated by bankers to be between $10 to $15 billion.

In 1965.

they're estimating that by looking at the land and the buildings
nevermind that they have owned this piece of land for 1700 years and it wasn't worth much even by the standards of that time

you can't really put a price on the Vatican's fixed assets because they're one of a kind.  what price can you put on the Sistine Chapel?

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #71 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 02:15 AM »
So the Church saves money. But if wealth is defined as the accumulation of resources, then, by that definition, it's safe to say that the Church is wealthy? It's savings will have to be in the hundreds of millions if not in the billions.

Just curious and thinking out loud.

do you expect them to just spend all they money they receive for the sake of spending it just to say they were poor?

and saying its in the billions is a gross exaggeration meant by people like you to incite hatred.  there's absolutely no basis for that accusation

they receive money, they have to be responsible for it

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #72 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 02:17 AM »
Another influence of the church to our government is the misinformation on the use of contraceptives. Notice that I did not use the term "artificial contraceptives" because it is only in the Philippines that it is used.

And guess who popularized the term?

Almost all Filipinos I have met are very hesitant to buy and use condoms. In fact, they are ashamed to be seen  by another person with it. I know it is harsh to say but the church has successfully brainwashed us against the use of something that can protect us from diseases and can solve the problem of overpopulation.

nuking metro manila will instantly eliminate 16 million from the population, should we do that?  it solves over population, plus it frees up a lot of land for development

Offline dorian_gray

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • DVD Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,028
  • Bakla ako...may angal?
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #73 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 04:07 AM »
nuking metro manila will instantly eliminate 16 million from the population, should we do that?  it solves over population, plus it frees up a lot of land for development

who mentioned nuking?

I believe one of the solutions of overpopulation right now is educating (not miseducating) people on the PROPER use of contraceptives.

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #74 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 05:41 AM »
who mentioned nuking?

I believe one of the solutions of overpopulation right now is educating (not miseducating) people on the PROPER use of contraceptives.

point was, there are many ways to curb population.  doesn't mean that every idea is good.

Offline alistair

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 348
  • Hi, I'm new here!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Nuke 'em from orbit!
« Reply #75 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 08:05 AM »
nuking metro manila will instantly eliminate 16 million from the population, should we do that?  it solves over population, plus it frees up a lot of land for development
Frankly, I've thought about that many times.

You have to use something like a Massive Ordnance Air Blast or MOAB bomb, (or Russia's "Father of All Bombs") though, to avoid nuclear contamination and fallout. This way you can reclaim the land much faster.

You also want to take out Malacañan, the Senate, and the Batasang Pambansa at the same time.

Would be a terrible, terrible way to get rid of a lot of the country's problems.
« Last Edit: Feb 25, 2010 at 11:09 AM by alistair »

Offline indie boi

  • Kapitan
  • Trade Count: (+31)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,807
  • Twitter: @indieboi
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #76 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 08:52 AM »
do you expect them to just spend all they money they receive for the sake of spending it just to say they were poor?

and saying its in the billions is a gross exaggeration meant by people like you to incite hatred.  there's absolutely no basis for that accusation

they receive money, they have to be responsible for it

Whoah, strong words there. Incite hatred? Would it surprise you to know that I give almost weekly donations to Quiapo every weekend?

And accusation? You do know how an accusation is worded right? Reread my post.

No need to go all defensive. As I said in that post, I was "thinking out loud", turning the facts over in my head.

Be careful sir.

Offline alistair

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 348
  • Hi, I'm new here!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #77 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 09:38 AM »
they're estimating that by looking at the land and the buildings
Actually sir, in 1965, of the Vatican's wealth "Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market. The Vatican has big investments in banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction, real estate."

To be fair, "Dividends help pay for Vatican expenses and charities such as assisting 1,500,000 children and providing some measure of food and clothing to 7,000,000 needy Italians."

"Unlike ordinary stockholders," though, "the Vatican pays no taxes on this income..."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html

Again, this was in 1965. A lot has changed since then.

Offline alistair

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 348
  • Hi, I'm new here!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #78 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 09:41 AM »
point was, there are many ways to curb population.  doesn't mean that every idea is good.
Uhuh. One way to curb population growth is to allow gay marriage.

In the words of the late Joker, Tada!
« Last Edit: Feb 25, 2010 at 10:57 AM by alistair »

Offline dorian_gray

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • DVD Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,028
  • Bakla ako...may angal?
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #79 on: Feb 25, 2010 at 10:54 AM »
Uhuh. One way to curb population is to allow gay marriage.

In the words of the late Joker, Tada!

lol@alistair

Gay people as a contraceptive. ;D

Offline Klaus Weasley

  • Trade Count: (+16)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,665
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 511
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #80 on: Feb 26, 2010 at 01:25 AM »
lol@alistair

Gay people as a contraceptive. ;D

It's Mother Nature's natural contraception.

Offline vx2

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 458
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #81 on: Feb 26, 2010 at 01:48 AM »
One way to curb population growth is to allow gay marriage.


Hadelman's The Forever War.  ;D

Offline Verbl Kint

  • Trade Count: (+18)
  • PinoyDVD Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,000
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 258
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #82 on: Feb 26, 2010 at 07:40 AM »
It's Mother Nature's natural contraception.

This actually makes sense if you look at the bigger picture.

Offline dorian_gray

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • DVD Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,028
  • Bakla ako...may angal?
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #83 on: Feb 26, 2010 at 10:40 AM »
(Nora Aunor tone): Hindi...ako...condom!

Offline aHobbit

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • DVD Guru
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,256
  • Think HARDER - HOLLOW Heads! No FO0Ls Please!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #84 on: Feb 26, 2010 at 04:56 PM »
the way the heirarcy is setup is that it is not a centralized governing body where the Pope micromanages everything.  with the Church being present in most countries in the world, it would be impossible to do so.  the Church hierarchy would be more or less like the government of Canada (the US by comparisson is still more centralized than Canada).  each province in Canada is independent of each other, each with its own laws, each with its own government.  taxation and government services are handled by each province separately although some are handled on a national level, most still lies with each province.

now, with the Vatican, yes there is a central belief and the Vatican handles this.  being One Church, all bishops must be in communion with the bishop of Rome, or more popularly known as the Pope.  which means dogmatic teachings are uniform across the entire Church.  but, each bishop has independent rule of their respective territories.  meaning they can impose their own rules and regulations that are not covered by doctrines and are not in violation of any doctrines

for example, in Canada the only holidays of obligation besides sundays are Christmas and New Year.  in the Philippines, it includes December 8 as a holiday of obligation

other varyinig practices are the use of altar girls (instead of exclusively boys) which again the local archbishop may decide for or against.

technically, each archbishop may enact a rule independent of another bishop.  so some practices can be different in the Archiocese of Manila compared to Cubao.  but most countries like the Philippines would have a national body of bishops such as the CBCP so as that policy can be uniform throught the country

the CBCP would not deviate from the doctrinal teachings of the Church.  but they don't have to have the permission of the Vatican, or orders from the Vatican for them to act on something they feel they need to do.  when Cardinal Sin decided to rally the people against Marcos, its his decision, not the Vaticans.  i'm not sure but they may also be notifying the Vatican of such actions so that the Vatican can evaluate and see if they are violating any church doctrine.  but in most cases they are independent in their decisions or actions


the bigger charities like Caritas would have, but the smaller ones may or may not.  but you can count that its presence is wide reaching, as every locale that has a church would definitely have a local charity attached to it, and even in far flung areas you will see missionaries bringing food and medicine to people

with or without any hard data, its a fact that the number of charities is dominated by religious based charities, and the biggest of these religions is the Catholic Church


It’s a setup in paper … but we have the history in our text books which RC tried to eliminate … not because it is untrue … but because it is a bad image for them. What further substantiation do you need? I will not debate about these facts – it will always be played down by those who looked the other way!

Clearly the bible says … you will know them (the agents of good and the agents of evil) … by their fruits and their roots!

Lest I be misinterpreted, not all RC (and its institution) followed their roots!


As to the separation of church & state, I think this is just human machination to avoid connivance between church & state – that is the church using the state to further its agenda, or the state using the church in furthering its agenda.

Religion should be considered personal in nature, while state affairs are collective efforts for the good of the majority without imposing on ones religious persuasion. Church is the group of individuals with the same religious persuasion.


Is it bad for the church to be involved in business? Of course not. The bible do not prohibit this.

The church commercial dealings is commercial, and not religious in nature. As such, it should be taxed (give to Caesar what belongs to him). RC has their own bank in the past – Monte de Piedad. If it is not subject to tax, it is not because of the separation of church & state – it could be an accommodation of the state to the church. Of course, this is also some of the roots of corruption in commercial dealings using church as its shield – invoking separation of church & state!


Is it bad for the church to get involve in state affairs? Depends! If the state is not imposing on personal matters relating to ones religious persuasion, then the church should not meddle. If it does impose on our personal religious persuasion, the church should get involve (this is biblical – read RUTH). Some of our good democratic laws were derived with the indulgence of godly people.

So is CBCP justified in meddling in our past political upheavel? Why not! It is supposedly intended to support good governance (so we thought in will result to good governance). But note that this meddling was not force to each individual. It is up to the individual to act according to his own reason or personal persuasion.

So is CBCP justified in meddling with this new health bill? I THINK NOT! The state is passing a law to control our population growth the way it knows how – but reading the law does not encroach on ones personal action. CBCP is only crying foul because it is counter to their doctrine. But RC is such an inconsistent organization – minoring the major and majoring the minor. Instead of CBCP giving its much efforts in media rhetorics against the initiative of the state that does not impose on ones decision to act, why don’t they instead push their own program to counter the same problem (educate if its to educate). If they do not want to control population, how can they help the state in controlling the problems that emanates from poor family planning. PRAY? Eat DOCTRINES?


Bottomline, people should have freedom to ones exercise of religion. Church is just the group of individuals with the same religious persuasion. Our political life will always be influenced by our religious leaning but not to the point that it will effectively trample other people’s religious leaning (think about Jihad). So there is not much separation here!

However, state affairs should not encroach/impose on our religious leaning if our religious leaning do not trample on the right of others to exercise theirs. (This is the issue of ARMM muslim ways of managing ARMM areas whose residents are predominantly Christians – the rebels seemed to be bent in governing using Islamic persuasion – or so I think)
Anti PDVD Malware (STUP1Ds & F0OLs)

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Nuke 'em from orbit!
« Reply #85 on: Feb 27, 2010 at 12:59 AM »
Frankly, I've thought about that many times.

You have to use something like a Massive Ordnance Air Blast or MOAB bomb, (or Russia's "Father of All Bombs") though, to avoid nuclear contamination and fallout. This way you can reclaim the land much faster.

You also want to take out Malacañan, the Senate, and the Batasang Pambansa at the same time.

Would be a terrible, terrible way to get rid of a lot of the country's problems.

hey, this is what games like SimCity has taught us
if we can just "delete" stuff and start building again, you can have a grand new city very shortly

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #86 on: Feb 27, 2010 at 01:03 AM »
Whoah, strong words there. Incite hatred? Would it surprise you to know that I give almost weekly donations to Quiapo every weekend?

And accusation? You do know how an accusation is worded right? Reread my post.

No need to go all defensive. As I said in that post, I was "thinking out loud", turning the facts over in my head.

Be careful sir.

i'm just being honest.  especially in the Philippines where being rich seems to be an evil thing.  people do use that argument about the Church to promote hatred against it

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #87 on: Feb 27, 2010 at 01:04 AM »
Actually sir, in 1965, of the Vatican's wealth "Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market. The Vatican has big investments in banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction, real estate."

To be fair, "Dividends help pay for Vatican expenses and charities such as assisting 1,500,000 children and providing some measure of food and clothing to 7,000,000 needy Italians."

"Unlike ordinary stockholders," though, "the Vatican pays no taxes on this income..."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html

Again, this was in 1965. A lot has changed since then.

to whom would the Vatican pay their taxes to?  they are their own state.  even if they pay taxes, it goes back to them.  its like their just fooling themselves and wasting their time if they pay taxes

Offline choy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 314
  • Hello!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #88 on: Feb 27, 2010 at 01:07 AM »
Uhuh. One way to curb population growth is to allow gay marriage.

In the words of the late Joker, Tada!

and who says the world's population needs to be curtailed?

while China, India and the Philippines are crying because of their population boom, the Western world is worried because they do not have enough population to support funding for their soon-to-be retirees

the problem is not over population.  its just population distribution

Offline alistair

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Collector
  • **
  • Posts: 348
  • Hi, I'm new here!
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Separation of church and state
« Reply #89 on: Feb 27, 2010 at 01:08 AM »
to whom would the Vatican pay their taxes to?
Um, maybe to the country where the companies they own stocks in are registered/headquartered and generate/report income in?

Last I checked, if you owned stock in say, Canada, you pay Canada the taxes on your dividends.
« Last Edit: Feb 27, 2010 at 01:17 AM by alistair »