Topic: Polk Audio LSI Series

[defcon3]

That is for now.  But there are times when we want to listen to dynamic materials at reference levels every now and then. I've been in the same dilemna before. I've got a 3 watt SET drivin my klipsch speakers. Sa acoustic music, ok lang siya. But for orchestra, fast music, the amp starts to clip. That's why i resorted to bi-amping, which solved my problem.

thanks for the suggestion sir..bi-amping ...will look into that.at least i have a and b to choose from.

[Stagea]

thank you thank you for your patience and time sir. pasensya na din po sa abala. i dont want to double/triple spend to an amp that won't be able to sustain the necessary amount of power for the LSI.
waste of time and waste of money.  

sir, budget will be in between 15-25thou.

That's a pretty tight budget for a new amp for the LSi15. You may want to check out used high current amps (or NOS units).

Sa new amps, the NAD C375BEE is a very solid integrated amp for its selling price. I'm not a NAD fan, but this is a product from NAD that really gets my attention (it has since its launch over 2 years ago, when I first saw the unit in Spectra). The internals are high-end worthy for a price that's fairly close to the much less robust C355BEE/C356BEE. It's almost like getting the C165BEE and the C275BEE separates together in one package (and at a much lower cost). The 150w x 2 output rating of this amp is very conservative, and it will drive most speakers well with most material (so you'd likely keep it even if your listening preference changes).  Bench tests show that it can output 200+wpc @ 8 ohms continuous very cleanly, with the 4 ohm output being significantly higher than that. The dynamic capability with a low impedance load is also great for its price. I personally can't think of a more robust HiFi amp from a major brand at this price range. Check if you can stretch your budget for this amp.

C375BEE


C356BEE


Notice the big difference?

Its predecessor, the C372 is almost as good.

[defcon3]

That's a pretty tight budget for a new amp for the LSi15. You may want to check out used high current amps (or NOS units).

Sa new amps, the NAD C375BEE is a very solid integrated amp for its selling price. I'm not a NAD fan, but this is a product from NAD that really gets my attention (it has since its launch over 2 years ago, when I first saw the unit in Spectra). The internals are high-end worthy for a price that's fairly close to the much less robust C355BEE/C356BEE. It's almost like getting the C165BEE and the C275BEE separates together in one package (and at a much lower cost). The 150w x 2 output rating of this amp is very conservative, and it will drive most speakers well with most material (so you'd likely keep it even if your listening preference changes).  Bench tests show that it can output 200+wpc @ 8 ohms continuous very cleanly, with the 4 ohm output being significantly higher than that. The dynamic capability with a low impedance load is also great for its price. I personally can't think of a more robust HiFi amp from a major brand at this price range. Check if you can stretch your budget for this amp.

C375BEE


C356BEE


Notice the big difference?

Its predecessor, the C372 is almost as good.

aray...its really expensive...whew!73k pesoses...thats a long long stretch of budget...125% of what i have in mind...

[Stagea]

aray...its really expensive...whew!73k pesoses...thats a long long stretch of budget...125% of what i have in mind...

Malaki naman ang discount pa diyan. Or pwedeng installment sa card hehehe. At least di ka na magiisip na baka nabibitin speakers mo.

If you want a new amp for 25k, CA 650A ang best bang/buck na alam ko na new at that price range. The Onkyo A5-VL can also deliver quite some current for the price. Kung puro acoustic jazz, vocals, etc. lang ang pineplay mo, chances are kaya na nito.

Of course, better siguro kung may mahanap ka na fresh na used unit na mas capable for the added flexibility.

[defcon3]

Malaki naman ang discount pa diyan. Or pwedeng installment sa card hehehe. At least di ka na magiisip na baka nabibitin speakers mo.

If you want a new amp for 25k, CA 650A ang best bang/buck na alam ko na new at that price range.

Of course, better siguro kung may mahanap ka na fresh na used unit na mas capable.

pag nagkataon mas mahal pa yung amp kesa sa speaker ng di hamak ...will try to search for 2nd hand nad here if ever may mga offer and will try to audition them... i am thinking of denon (140watts/4ohms,0.01THD) marantz pm7001 (70watt/4ohms, 0.01 %THD,prob is nde pwede i-audition pag bnew... anyways, will search for more options sir...madugoh oh oh ang nad! yung cambridge is 75watt/pc, 8ohms, thd is 0.02%.i guess it won't sa LSI15 (4ohms)...still open for suggetions/comments.

[Nelson de Leon]

pag nagkataon mas mahal pa yung amp kesa sa speaker ng di hamak ...will try to search for 2nd hand nad here if ever may mga offer and will try to audition them... i am thinking of denon (140watts/4ohms,0.01THD) marantz pm7001 (70watt/4ohms, 0.01 %THD,prob is nde pwede i-audition pag bnew... anyways, will search for more options sir...madugoh oh oh ang nad! yung cambridge is 75watt/pc, 8ohms, thd is 0.02%.i guess it won't sa LSI15 (4ohms)...still open for suggetions/comments.

May old model NAD power amp dati na sale sa Makati. I forgot the name of the store. Distro ng Sony. Old stocks nila. I forgot the price din pero it's double the size (dimensions) of the amp master guru Stagea mentioned. I would pressume masmalakas yun. And IMHO, mukha ngang bagay din ang NAD sa Polk.

[Stagea]

pag nagkataon mas mahal pa yung amp kesa sa speaker ng di hamak ...will try to search for 2nd hand nad here if ever may mga offer and will try to audition them... i am thinking of denon (140watts/4ohms,0.01THD) marantz pm7001 (70watt/4ohms, 0.01 %THD,prob is nde pwede i-audition pag bnew... anyways, will search for more options sir...madugoh oh oh ang nad! yung cambridge is 75watt/pc, 8ohms, thd is 0.02%.i guess it won't sa LSI15 (4ohms)...still open for suggetions/comments.

Mas mahal kaya yan speaker mo kesa sa C375BEE. Last time I checked 59k ata ang amp nato (if I remember right), ewan ko kung tumaas na. The matching CDP is 37k srp ata.

The 650A is capable of driving 4 ohm loads (I'm not saying that it would be comfortable doing it, though). 115w x 2 at 4 ohms ang continuous rating nya.

If you're willing to head the Class-D route, the Onkyo A-9555 delivers quite some current for the price (though it's low on damping, as with most lower-priced Class-D gear). This amp is only slightly above your target price range, and packs quite some punch. It's rated at 200wpc at 4 ohms ("Japanese Watts"), with a realistic output not so far off (1% THD point is at 175wpc as per Stereophile). Madami tayo Onkyo dealers dito, baka maka-arrange sila ng audition for you. Try mo contact si Marc / AVShop about it.

The A-9755 is even more capable for a bit more money, with a 300wpc rating at 4 ohms. The dual-mono internals is quite impressive for its price. See below:

The A-9555 shares most of the A-9755's internals, but gets a single larger tranny, presumably running a lower voltage but with a higher current capacity (which isn't much of a damper, imho). Many of the design-matched CD players like the DX-C390 and the DX-7355 are also reasonably priced.

Some useful links:
http://www.polkaudio.com/education/showanswer.php?question_num=46
http://www.polkaudio.com/education/article.php?id=4

[Stagea]

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,144406.0.html

That looks like a good option, if you don't care about the remote control.

[defcon3]

yap, good option din sir...thanks for all the info and the effort that you've shared. God Bless!

[lncc63]

Yes bros, thank you for this thread. It really did "sell" me.  Bought AVShop's last LSi9 set awhile ago. Will be getting the pre-loved  integrated amp Bro Stegea recommended tomorrow.

[Conan]

Yes bros, thank you for this thread. It really did "sell" me.  Bought AVShop's last LSi9 set awhile ago. Will be getting the pre-loved  integrated amp Bro Stegea recommended tomorrow.

Wow, congrats! 

[defcon3]

Yes bros, thank you for this thread. It really did "sell" me.  Bought AVShop's last LSi9 set awhile ago. Will be getting the pre-loved  integrated amp Bro Stegea recommended tomorrow.

congrats sir. maagang pamasko. 

[mikeer2002ph]

Yes bros, thank you for this thread. It really did "sell" me.  Bought AVShop's last LSi9 set awhile ago. Will be getting the pre-loved  integrated amp Bro Stegea recommended tomorrow.

welcome to the LSi family

[Stagea]

Yes bros, thank you for this thread. It really did "sell" me.  Bought AVShop's last LSi9 set awhile ago. Will be getting the pre-loved  integrated amp Bro Stegea recommended tomorrow.

Yung Roksan ba? I have not heard them together, but the LSis are relatively easy to partner.

[lncc63]

Yup that's the one. No worry about incompatibility since PDVD makes it easy to trade.

[mikeer2002ph]

thanks sir mikeer...what about denon pma 1500ae, would you think it could suffice the PA LSI15's needs (140watts/4ohms,0.1THD)? or a smaller power like marantz pm7001 (70watt/4ohms, 0.1 %THD . so far these are the only int amp that i have found from the retailers.
would gladly appreciate your reply.

the PMA 1500AE is a UHC (ultra high current) MOS transistor integrated amp while the Marantz PM7001 is your typical bipolar transistor integrated amp.

The sound characteristics are different - Marantz by experience is fuller sounding than a Denon although Denon PMA UHC MOS models are known to be refined - bass is very articulate.

Why dont you audition the Denon PMA 1500AE and the Marantz PM7001 first before you decide which is which.

We all have different tastes in sound characteristics

[mikeer2002ph]

Yes, it doesn't need as much as many people think. Of course, having a powerful amp increases your dynamic headroom (a very good thing).

The current needs would vary depending on how loud you're planning to play, and what sort of material you listen to. An amp's electrical capability is not just measured by its power rating, so it's hard to set a threshold power spec for suitability.

in addition

amplifer design comes into play here as well

wattage (watts) of the amplifer is one thing, how they are derived to get to that number is another

and we go back to electronics 101 : power (watts) = voltage (volts) x current (amps)


in as much as 100w of amp power can be permuted into several (voltage x current) configurations.

and they all sound different mind you.


Amplifiers that are more voltage over current (more volts than amps) makes the amp sound bright = great treble but at the expense of 'thinner' bass

then there are amps that are more current than voltage (more amps than volts) which makes the amp sound dark - lots of bass at the expense of thinner treble


of course the ideal is a balance between dark and bright characteristics but one factor here is:


1. who is listening?

and

2. who determines what is 'balanced'?

sound engineers 'listen' to their amplifier prototype/design extensively before an amplifier model is mass produced and/or they rehash/recycle an old design (refresh it with new parts) and incorporate it into the new model (which is often the case)

the typical japanese sound is 'clarity' - superb mids and highs, with a 'hint' of bass
the typical american sound is 'in your face' - bass and treble aplenty, so-so mids
the typical european sound is 'controlled' - open midrange, controlled bass and treble

then there are brands (inclusive of DIY) that subscribe to any one of these characteristics.

-=-=-=

one way out of this mess = audition with your existing gear and use your ears before you buy.

tip: take your time in auditioning. it is a tedious process I know but its worth the effort.

[Stagea]

in addition

amplifer design comes into play here as well

wattage (watts) of the amplifer is one thing, how they are derived to get to that number is another

and we go back to electronics 101 : power (watts) = voltage (volts) x current (amps)


in as much as 100w of amp power can be permuted into several (voltage x current) configurations.

and they all sound different mind you.


Amplifiers that are more voltage over current (more volts than amps) makes the amp sound bright = great treble but at the expense of 'thinner' bass

then there are amps that are more current than voltage (more amps than volts) which makes the amp sound dark - lots of bass at the expense of thinner treble


of course the ideal is a balance between dark and bright characteristics but one factor here is:


1. who is listening?

and

2. who determines what is 'balanced'?

sound engineers 'listen' to their amplifier prototype/design extensively before an amplifier model is mass produced and/or they rehash/recycle an old design (refresh it with new parts) and incorporate it into the new model (which is often the case)

the typical japanese sound is 'clarity' - superb mids and highs, with a 'hint' of bass
the typical american sound is 'in your face' - bass and treble aplenty, so-so mids
the typical european sound is 'controlled' - open midrange, controlled bass and treble

then there are brands (inclusive of DIY) that subscribe to any one of these characteristics.

-=-=-=

one way out of this mess = audition with your existing gear and use your ears before you buy.

tip: take your time in auditioning. it is a tedious process I know but its worth the effort.

It's hard to say more amps than volts (or vice versa), since they are not comparable. You need more current to sustain a higher voltage through the same load. For example, to deliver 100w to a purely resistive 8 ohm load, you need 28.28VRMS and 3.55A. There is no other way to do it. You cannot drive 50V to that load and only pass 2A.

A high current amp could deliver more current before distorting, when compared against a low current amp. A high voltage amp can reach higher output voltages before hitting its internal limits.

Low current amps do not necessarily sound bright, otherwise most tube amps would sound bright. They are designed to drive higher impedance loads, and preferably those that aren't very capacitive.

The problem occurs when these amps are asked to drive more difficult loads. They become current-limited once too much of it is demanded, causing non-linearity (the amp wouldn't reach the desired voltage, and would thus cause gain compression). This modulates the output relative to the speaker's electrical characteristics, so if a speaker introduces a lower impedance at lower frequencies, then the output would likely be bass-light (while a speaker that dips in impedance in the midrange may sound muffled, etc.). This inverse relationship often causes speakers with wild impedance curves to sound very different (often very uneven) when coupled to a low current amp (unfortunately, some people like the resulting sound).

A modern high current (and low voltage) amp on the other hand, may not be the optimal gear for driving very high impedance loads (such as many vintage speakers from over 40 years ago), as it may not produce the voltage required to deliver the desired amount of power to a high impedance load (this can cause audible clipping, or trigger an amp's protection/soft clip circuitry). Fortunately, vintage speakers are often also quite a bit more efficient than their modern counterparts.

Of course many other factors come to play, but these are the very basics.

[mikeer2002ph]

It's hard to say more amps than volts (or vice versa), since they are not comparable. You need more current to sustain a higher voltage through the same load. For example, to deliver 100w to a purely resistive 8 ohm load, you need 28.28VRMS and 3.55A. There is no other way to do it. You cannot drive 50V to that load and only pass 2A.

A high current amp could deliver more current before distorting, when compared against a low current amp. A high voltage amp can reach higher output voltages before hitting its internal limits.

Low current amps do not necessarily sound bright, otherwise most tube amps would sound bright. They are designed to drive higher impedance loads, and preferably those that aren't very capacitive.

The problem occurs when these amps are asked to drive more difficult loads. They become current-limited once too much of it is demanded, causing non-linearity (the amp wouldn't reach the desired voltage, and would thus cause gain compression). This modulates the output relative to the speaker's electrical characteristics, so if a speaker introduces a lower impedance at lower frequencies, then the output would likely be bass-light (while a speaker that dips in impedance in the midrange may sound muffled, etc.). This inverse relationship often causes speakers with wild impedance curves to sound very different (often very uneven) when coupled to a low current amp (unfortunately, some people like the resulting sound).

A modern high current (and low voltage) amp on the other hand, may not be the optimal gear for driving very high impedance loads (such as many vintage speakers from over 40 years ago), as it may not produce the voltage required to deliver the desired amount of power to a high impedance load (this can cause audible clipping, or trigger an amp's protection/soft clip circuitry). Fortunately, vintage speakers are often also quite a bit more efficient than their modern counterparts.

Of course many other factors come to play, but these are the very basics.

hence the wisdom behind bringing the amp that one intends to pair with the speaker / amp that will be matched with the speaker at home exactly because of the myriad of factors that come into play - characteristics of the amp, characteristics of the speaker, dynamics/behavior of the amp paired with the speaker at low / medium / high volumes

[defcon3]

since this forum is meant for polk audio LSI series i have read in one forum of PA that it's possible to modify the crossovers of some speakers, but i don't know if any owner of PA here would do such to change their x-o's. but as per the member who makes the modification, he say's :

In my experience with center channels you should obtain a cleaner top end and midrange - so ultimately vocals will sound cleaner, clearer. It really depends on how much information you send your center channel - could be dramatic or minor. But crossover upgrades for me have always been positive, large improvements.

is it possible? since i am don't have the technical knowledge of x and y's capacitors blah blah, i will just leave it to you guys to check if it's possible or not..... heres the link :

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?118558-I-would-like-to-mod-your-crossovers-revised&highlight=lsi9

[Stagea]

@defcon

Modifying the passives is possible. It'd surely change the sound --- however, it's always a two-way street. You can improve or degrade the performance.

The LSi speakers already deliver great performance as they are, when matched carefully. I suggest you try your LSi15s with different components first, to find a pairing that will suit your room and your preference (unless you plan on going the processing route).

[Stagea]

Yup that's the one. No worry about incompatibility since PDVD makes it easy to trade.

We mixed and matched some stuff with your gear last Saturday.

The result: Your Roksan Kandy L3 and your Polk Audio LSi9 sing wonderfully together with the Onkyo CS-5VL set to Filter 3, tied together with Marc's generic speaker cables (the brown ones) and Rey's Monster THX ICs. They just work together to produce a satisfyingly full and urgent sound that never felt lacking in drive or reach. That set is the best I've heard in Marc's place (and I've heard quite a lot of gear in that room) --- it's truly demo-worthy.

Just remember to plug them straight to the wall, or at the very least to a relatively stiff power source. The Roksan pulls enough current that dynamics get squashed and nuances get glossed over when connected to a less able line conditioner or AVR.

Congratulations with this purchase. I'm sure you'd have lots of listening hours ahead.

Rey and James, thanks for inviting me over to play with these components.

[mikeer2002ph]

since this forum is meant for polk audio LSI series i have read in one forum of PA that it's possible to modify the crossovers of some speakers, but i don't know if any owner of PA here would do such to change their x-o's. but as per the member who makes the modification, he say's :

In my experience with center channels you should obtain a cleaner top end and midrange - so ultimately vocals will sound cleaner, clearer. It really depends on how much information you send your center channel - could be dramatic or minor. But crossover upgrades for me have always been positive, large improvements.

is it possible? since i am don't have the technical knowledge of x and y's capacitors blah blah, i will just leave it to you guys to check if it's possible or not..... heres the link :

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?118558-I-would-like-to-mod-your-crossovers-revised&highlight=lsi9

in the PA forums specifically the LSi9 crossover mod thread, there are specific mods (with pics) to the LSi9's crossover using different caps / resistors.

The thread starter claims the LSiX drivers are already superior, and are only 'held back' by the 'cheap' quality of the crossover components (pictures of the 'offending' parts are displayed) hence when the crossover is modded, it offered better imaging, frequency response.

source: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?72273-LSi9-Crossover-Modification-Project

I am open to the concept of modding the crossovers, then again the replacement parts (caps / resistors) should be able to fit the cramped space of the PCB (as you can see in the pic, the LSI9 crossover PCB is paltry) or done outside the speaker cabinet/enclosure.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

We mixed and matched some stuff with your gear last Saturday.

The result: Your Roksan Kandy L3 and your Polk Audio LSi9 sing wonderfully together with the Onkyo CS-5VL set to Filter 3, tied together with Marc's generic speaker cables (the brown ones) and Rey's Monster THX ICs. They just work together to produce a satisfyingly full and urgent sound that never felt lacking in drive or reach. That set is the best I've heard in Marc's place (and I've heard quite a lot of gear in that room) --- it's truly demo-worthy.

Just remember to plug them straight to the wall, or at the very least to a relatively stiff power source. The Roksan pulls enough current that dynamics get squashed and nuances get glossed over when connected to a less able line conditioner or AVR.

Congratulations with this purchase. I'm sure you'd have lots of listening hours ahead.

Rey and James, thanks for inviting me over to play with these components.

nice!

[lncc63]

We mixed and matched some stuff with your gear last Saturday.

The result: Your Roksan Kandy L3 and your Polk Audio LSi9 sing wonderfully together with the Onkyo CS-5VL set to Filter 3, tied together with Marc's generic speaker cables (the brown ones) and Rey's Monster THX ICs. They just work together to produce a satisfyingly full and urgent sound that never felt lacking in drive or reach. That set is the best I've heard in Marc's place (and I've heard quite a lot of gear in that room) --- it's truly demo-worthy.

Just remember to plug them straight to the wall, or at the very least to a relatively stiff power source. The Roksan pulls enough current that dynamics get squashed and nuances get glossed over when connected to a less able line conditioner or AVR.

Congratulations with this purchase. I'm sure you'd have lots of listening hours ahead.

Rey and James, thanks for inviting me over to play with these components.

Thanks Bro.  I was actually hoping you'd stop by when James and Rey told me you lived nearby.  I noticed too the difference with the brown generic speaker wire.  Up until I'd heard it myself, I was skeptical speaker wire could affect sound quality ... or maybe my ears are learning. 

My plan is to plug it into the 5KVA AVR.  I hope it is stiff enough.  Electricity has been pretty well behaved so I suppose plugging it into the wall is also ok. 

Is the "Onkyo CS-5VL" correct?  Did a google and couldn't find it.

[Stagea]

Thanks Bro.  I was actually hoping you'd stop by when James and Rey told me you lived nearby.  I noticed too the difference with the brown generic speaker wire.  Up until I'd heard it myself, I was skeptical speaker wire could affect sound quality ... or maybe my ears are learning. 

My plan is to plug it into the 5KVA AVR.  I hope it is stiff enough.  Electricity has been pretty well behaved so I suppose plugging it into the wall is also ok. 

Is the "Onkyo CS-5VL" correct?  Did a google and couldn't find it.

Both Rey and James texted me to stop by when I'm free. I've heard the LSi9 with different amps (and a mix of various gear) before, and it never sounded as right.

Sorry, the hyphen was misplaced. It should be Onkyo C-S5VL.

A 5kVA AVR should be plenty stiff. Of course, you can always compare the performance with and without it.

[nogie]

Mas mahal kaya yan speaker mo kesa sa C375BEE. Last time I checked 59k ata ang amp nato (if I remember right), ewan ko kung tumaas na. The matching CDP is 37k srp ata.

The 650A is capable of driving 4 ohm loads (I'm not saying that it would be comfortable doing it, though). 115w x 2 at 4 ohms ang continuous rating nya.

If you're willing to head the Class-D route, the Onkyo A-9555 delivers quite some current for the price (though it's low on damping, as with most lower-priced Class-D gear). This amp is only slightly above your target price range, and packs quite some punch. It's rated at 200wpc at 4 ohms ("Japanese Watts"), with a realistic output not so far off (1% THD point is at 175wpc as per Stereophile). Madami tayo Onkyo dealers dito, baka maka-arrange sila ng audition for you. Try mo contact si Marc / AVShop about it.

The A-9755 is even more capable for a bit more money, with a 300wpc rating at 4 ohms. The dual-mono internals is quite impressive for its price. See below:

The A-9555 shares most of the A-9755's internals, but gets a single larger tranny, presumably running a lower voltage but with a higher current capacity (which isn't much of a damper, imho). Many of the design-matched CD players like the DX-C390 and the DX-7355 are also reasonably priced.

Some useful links:
http://www.polkaudio.com/education/showanswer.php?question_num=46
http://www.polkaudio.com/education/article.php?id=4

I have this integrated amps together w/ A3's arriving on November 19th. Hope you guys can share your lsi9 for an audition w/ A-9555, i will bring the amps to your place. I am also contemplating to buy one as Christmas gift....para sa sarili.

[Courage]

I have this integrated amps together w/ A3's arriving on November 19th. Hope you guys can share your lsi9 for an audition w/ A-9555, i will bring the amps to your place. I am also contemplating to buy one as Christmas gift....para sa sarili.

Wow brader congrats..... Mukang may plano ka ding kumuha nang LSi9 ah

[nogie]

Wow brader congrats..... Mukang may plano ka ding kumuha nang LSi9 ah

Konti na lang na ipon bro, my brother can get one for $500.

[lncc63]

I have this integrated amps together w/ A3's arriving on November 19th. Hope you guys can share your lsi9 for an audition w/ A-9555, i will bring the amps to your place. I am also contemplating to buy one as Christmas gift....para sa sarili.

You are of course most welcome Sir Nogie though I should warn you Ortigas Extn and Felix Ave are dug up.   Just hope that the LSi9s have their full voice by then.  It might also be interesting to have your amp drive the A9s.  Let me know.  Send me a PM, the number you have may be old.

[nogie]

You are of course most welcome Sir Nogie though I should warn you Ortigas Extn and Felix Ave are dug up.   Just hope that the LSi9s have their full voice by then.  It might also be interesting to have your amp drive the A9s.  Let me know.  Send me a PM, the number you have may be old.

Cool!  I will bring both the A-9555 and HK 3490 stereo avr for us to compare which one is better. Integrated amps or stereo avr? I will PM you sir for the schedule probably before end of the month.