Author Topic: The Religion Thread  (Read 357765 times)

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Offline Phobos

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #30 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 10:42 AM »
Since we're on the subject of taking the Bible literally, I'm going to share with you guys this scene from The West Wing (one of the greatest shows on Earth):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI

President Bartlet, a devout Catholic, encounters a media personality known for criticizing gays on her radio show because the Bible calls them "an abomination."

The good stuff occurs in 1:08 onwards.

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #31 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 10:54 AM »
That's the thing. The writer couldn't have known that the whole world was flooded. The flood may have been great enough for him to say it flooded his world. In this case, "The Black Sea Deluge Theory" is a sound theory.

Noah knew that the great flood covered the world because he was inspired by God.

Noah knew around 100 years beforehand that a great flood would come (Noah entered the ark when he was 600 years old; he died when he was 950 years old).  If we believe that he had the power to know that, then it should be easier for us to believe that he knew the magnitude of the flood when it was already there.  

The writer of Genesis was Moses.  He knew when and where he was going to die because God told him so.  In fact he wrote his own obituary:

5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him[a] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over. (Deut. 34:5-8)

If the writer Moses had the power to know beforehand when and where he was going to die, then simply knowing the magnitude of the great flood would have been much easier for him.

The black sea deluge theory is far from sound.  It's not generally accepted in the scientific community.

(From wikipedia:)

Countering the hypothesis of Ryan and Pitman are data collected prior to its publication by Ukrainian and Russian scientists including Valentina Yanko-Hombach, who claims that the water flow through the Bosporus repeatedly reversed direction over geological time depending on fluctuation in the levels of the Aegean Sea and the Black Sea. This contradicts the hypothesized catastrophic breakage of a Bosporus sill. Likewise, the water levels calculated by Yanko-Hombach differed widely from those hypothesized by Ryan and Pitman.

In 2007, a research anthology on the topic was published which makes available much of the earlier Russian research in English for the first time, and combines it with more recent scientific findings.

A five-year cross-disciplinary research project under the sponsorship of UNESCO and the International Union of Geological Sciences was conducted 2005–9.

A February 2009 article (National Georaphic) reported that the flooding might have been "quite mild".

« Last Edit: Jul 06, 2011 at 12:33 PM by barrister »

Offline bumblebee

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #32 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 11:11 AM »
Noah knew that the great flood covered the world because he was inspired by God.

There have been great floods which inspired myths and legends. Noah may have been a real person but the magnitude of his flood seem more myth than fact.

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #33 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 11:18 AM »
It's OK if you don't believe the story about Noah. 

I admit that's it's pretty incredible to begin with.

Offline bumblebee

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #34 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 11:22 AM »
I'm inclined to believe Noah existed, that he built an arc and survived a great flood.

Offline leomarley

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #35 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 11:42 AM »
I'm inclined to believe Noah existed, that he built an arc and survived a great flood.

+1

and if the flood indeed engulfed the entire world, it wouldn't only lasted 40 days. if that was the case, where did all that water have gone to? (unless there was divine intervention). i do believe a great flood had occurred but i don't think it engulfed the entire world.
« Last Edit: Jul 06, 2011 at 11:44 AM by leomarley »

Offline indie boi

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #36 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 11:45 AM »
Many of the myths and legends from different cultures all throughout the world contain some reference to a great flood. Some people have viewed this as circumstantial evidence that Noah's Great Flood did happen.

Offline bumblebee

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #37 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 11:52 AM »
Many of the myths and legends from different cultures all throughout the world contain some reference to a great flood. Some people have viewed this as circumstantial evidence that Noah's Great Flood did happen.

Because there have been many great floods. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

Assuming Noah's flood is a one-time, big-time flood, any reference to a great flood would have Noah's name on it.

Offline dyerds

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #38 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 12:32 PM »
What did Jesus do during his teenage years?  Parang wala yata akong nabasa sa Bible at wala rin yatang naturo sa amin ang teacher ko about his teeange life. If I remember it right, the last story in the Bible about his childhood (I think he was 12 years old) was when he's lost in the temple and after that 30 years old na kaagad sya.

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #39 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 12:35 PM »
+1

and if the flood indeed engulfed the entire world, it wouldn't only lasted 40 days. if that was the case, where did all that water have gone to? (unless there was divine intervention). i do believe a great flood had occurred but i don't think it engulfed the entire world.


The bible says God intervened.

Psalm 104: 7 & 8 says the waters stood above the mountains, then God rebuked the waters, and the waters fled.



Offline tigkal

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #40 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 12:39 PM »
What did Jesus do during his teenage years?  Parang wala yata akong nabasa sa Bible at wala rin yatang naturo sa amin ang teacher ko about his teeange life. If I remember it right, the last story in the Bible about his childhood (I think he was 12 years old) was when he's lost in the temple and after that 30 years old na kaagad sya.

Some say that Jesus went to Tibet to study. The Three Magis job was to locate Jesus so that by the time He is ready, They will take Him to Tibet. If you notice the teachings of Confucius(600 BC) and Christ, it is almost the same. Golden Rule, 7 beatitudes, non violence, etc.. It is more of Eastern teaching then Western(an eye for an eye, violence, killings,as illustrated in the old testament).

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #41 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 12:52 PM »
Some say that Jesus went to Tibet to study. The Three Magis job was to locate Jesus so that by the time He is ready, They will take Him to Tibet. If you notice the teachings of Confucius(600 BC) and Christ, it is almost the same. Golden Rule, 7 beatitudes, non violence, etc.. It is more of Eastern teaching then Western(an eye for an eye, violence, killings,as illustrated in the old testament).

No, that can't be right.  The answer is found in the bible itself.

53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” (Matthew 13: 53-56)

Those verses tell us that the people speaking saw Jesus grow up in the same place.  

Remember that nearly everyone there was illiterate, so Jesus had to have gone to some far away place to study for several years in order to gain some scholarly knowledge.  If Jesus went to Tibet, then the people wouldn't have been amazed.  They would have just said Jesus was away for a long time, so he must have gotten his knowledge while he was away.

Instead, the people were amazed because they couldn't figure out where Jesus got this knowldege, because they knew that Jesus was with them all the time.

Note that verse 54 says the people who were amazed were the people in "his hometown".

So where was Jesus before he started his ministry?  Where he had always been --- in Nazareth, a town of Galilee.

What was he doing during that time?  The son usually takes up the same work as the father, so it's likely that Jesus was working as a carpenter.  "Isn't this the carpenter's son?," the people asked rhetorically.  
  
« Last Edit: Jul 06, 2011 at 02:32 PM by barrister »

Offline oweidah

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #42 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 02:40 PM »
ano po ba ang kalendaryo gamit nila noon para masabing 950yo umabot si noah?


Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #43 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 03:00 PM »
Some have suggested that the ages were a mistranslation somehow, that the authors were actually counting lunar months instead of years. 

This would put Noah's age at roughly his late 70's (in solar years).

There are some who also say that the ages in Genesis were pure myth, created so as to connect genealogies much more quickly and weave the connection from Creation to the Patriarchs.

Offline RU9

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #44 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 03:36 PM »
There are some who also say that the ages in Genesis were pure myth, created so as to connect genealogies much more quickly and weave the connection from Creation to the Patriarchs.

If the ages were pure myth, does it follow the the whole Genesis is also pure myth?

Offline bumblebee

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #45 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 03:39 PM »
Not necessarily. Feats and events may actually have happened, but may have been just magnified (or reduced) as they were passed on. Remember, no written records up until Moses.
« Last Edit: Jul 06, 2011 at 03:47 PM by bumblebee »

Offline indie boi

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #46 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 03:51 PM »
What did Jesus do during his teenage years?  Parang wala yata akong nabasa sa Bible at wala rin yatang naturo sa amin ang teacher ko about his teeange life. If I remember it right, the last story in the Bible about his childhood (I think he was 12 years old) was when he's lost in the temple and after that 30 years old na kaagad sya.

The Gnostic texts do have accounts of Jesus' "lost years," among them the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #47 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 03:57 PM »
ano po ba ang kalendaryo gamit nila noon para masabing 950yo umabot si noah?

They used the ancient Hebrew calendar, which is a lunisolar calendar.

One day today is the same as one day in ancient times (they observed the sun); one month is the same (they used the moon); one year is the same (they used the seasons).

Ordinaryo lang naman ang 950 years old during that time.  Before the great flood, the average human lifespan was about 900 years.  The oldest biblical character whose age was mentioned is Methuselah (969 years old when he died).  After the great flood, the average human lifespan became shorter.



Some have suggested that the ages were a mistranslation somehow, that the authors were actually counting lunar months instead of years.  

This would put Noah's age at roughly his late 70's (in solar years).

There's no basis for that belief.

Genesis 9:29 says: "Noah lived a total of 950 years, and then he died."

The word "years" was written as "שָׁנֵה", transliterated as "shaneh".  The Strong's Number is 8141:  http://www.strongs-bible.com/1-Strongs-01.htm#c09

Shaneh means "years", plural.  No mistranslation there.  http://qbible.com/h/8141.html

  

There are some who also say that the ages in Genesis were pure myth, created so as to connect genealogies much more quickly and weave the connection from Creation to the Patriarchs.

Bible genealogies are useless for calculating periods of time because genealogies in the bible are always incomplete.

Even if you adjust the age of the bible characters, those genealogies would still be useless because they would still be incomplete.  

Bible genealogies are used for connecting blood lines.  If you have an incomplete set of characters, you don't need to adjust their ages to connect blood lines.  You just say X begat Y, which means Y is a descendant of X, even if there were several generations between X and Y that were not mentioned.  

« Last Edit: Jul 06, 2011 at 08:00 PM by barrister »

Offline Dilbert7

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #48 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 04:41 PM »
Quote
I think one of the crucial questions about reading the Bible is, do you really need to interpret it literally? I think this literal interpretation of the Bible is what's giving us a lot of trouble these days.


and sweeping spiritualization of the Bible will get you even more troubles!

aka audiophiles - to each his own venom.


Quote

 In this case, "The Black Sea Deluge Theory" is a sound theory.

- or probably - just mere sound, to call attention to himself! ksp siguro yung mama.


Quote
The Gnostic texts do have accounts of Jesus' "lost years," among them the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene.

I think anybody can do another one - the more, the merrier!


Quote

Bible genealogies are useless for calculating periods of time because genealogies in the bible are always incomplete.



The more useful info to calculate period of time would "generation".

Matthew 1:17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.

Though, your next problem is whether "generation" here refer to a specific length of time as suggested in http://www.bibletime.com/theory/generation.

Plus, the number of "generation" from Adam to Abraham, to complete the time from Adam to Jesus' time.
« Last Edit: Jul 06, 2011 at 05:05 PM by Dilbert7 »

Offline Wildfire™

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #49 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 05:48 PM »
Quote
and if the flood indeed engulfed the entire world, it wouldn't only lasted 40 days. if that was the case, where did all that water have gone to? (unless there was divine intervention). i do believe a great flood had occurred but i don't think it engulfed the entire world.

i think the flood was caused by a sudden climate shift that melted the polar caps and returned there after

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #50 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 07:19 PM »
i think the flood was caused by a sudden climate shift that melted the polar caps and returned there after

The bible describes two sources of water for the flood: (a) water from rain ("the windows of heaven"), and (b) water from underground ("the fountains of the great deep"):

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. (Genesis 7:11-12)
 
The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
(Genesis 8:2)


Melting polar ice caps will not fit the description.





The more useful info to calculate period of time would "generation".

Matthew 1:17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.

Though, your next problem is whether "generation" here refer to a specific length of time as suggested in http://www.bibletime.com/theory/generation.

Plus, the number of "generation" from Adam to Abraham, to complete the time from Adam to Jesus' time.

That's not going to work.  In Matthew, there are many gaps in the second and third tesseradecads (sets of fourteen).

Here's an example:

Comparing Matthew's second tesseradecad with 1 Chronicles 3, we find the following omissions: Ahaziah, Jehoash, Amaziah, and Jehoiakim.

In Matthew 1:8, the author said "Jehoram the father of Uzziah", whereas if we follow 1 Chronicles 3, it should have been "Jehoram, Ahaziah, Jehoash, Amaziah, and Uzziah (also known as Azariah)".

So now, while it appears that 1 Chronicles 3 is more complete than Matthew 1, there is still no guarantee that 1 Chronicles 3 is not itself incomplete.  

In fact, genealogy gaps are very common even in the Old Testament, so there's no reason to presume that 1 Chronicles 3 has no gaps.



« Last Edit: Jul 07, 2011 at 05:49 PM by barrister »

Offline dpogs

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #51 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 08:16 PM »

Ordinaryo lang naman ang 950 years old during that time.  Before the great flood, the average human lifespan was about 900 years.  The oldest biblical character whose age was mentioned is Methuselah (969 years old when he died).  After the great flood, the average human lifespan became shorter.


yup. that is true. because they have almost perfect climate/weather... natatakpan ng tubig ang mundo (might be possible reason bakit hindi agad sila tumatanda - natatakpan ang araw)... before the flood... hindi pa sila nakakaranas ng ulan...

There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline Onkyo606

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #52 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 08:20 PM »
yup. that is true. because they have almost perfect climate/weather... natatakpan ng tubig ang mundo (might be possible reason bakit hindi agad sila tumatanda - natatakpan ang araw)... before the flood... hindi pa sila nakakaranas ng ulan...



dpogs dun sa NBA thread inaalaska kita pero dito sa thread na ito, kanina pa kita talaga inaantay, pati si moks at JT ;)
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Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #53 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 09:03 PM »
yup. that is true. because they have almost perfect climate/weather... natatakpan ng tubig ang mundo (might be possible reason bakit hindi agad sila tumatanda - natatakpan ang araw)... before the flood... hindi pa sila nakakaranas ng ulan...

"It never rained on earth before the great flood came."    

I don't think that's true.  

You won't find any scriptural evidence for that belief.  Genesis 2:5–6 and Hebrews 11:7 are not enough to prove it.




=======================




There Was No Rain Before the Flood
Arguments Christians Should Not Use
by Dr. Tommy Mitchell, AiG–U.S. on October 19, 2010


http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2010/10/19/rain-before-flood


« Last Edit: Jul 06, 2011 at 09:06 PM by barrister »

Offline Wildfire™

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #54 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 09:16 PM »
how about ice age, was it before or after noah's flood?

Offline tigkal

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #55 on: Jul 06, 2011 at 09:26 PM »
No, that can't be right.  The answer is found in the bible itself.

53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” (Matthew 13: 53-56)

Those verses tell us that the people speaking saw Jesus grow up in the same place.  

Remember that nearly everyone there was illiterate, so Jesus had to have gone to some far away place to study for several years in order to gain some scholarly knowledge.  If Jesus went to Tibet, then the people wouldn't have been amazed.  They would have just said Jesus was away for a long time, so he must have gotten his knowledge while he was away.

Instead, the people were amazed because they couldn't figure out where Jesus got this knowldege, because they knew that Jesus was with them all the time.

Note that verse 54 says the people who were amazed were the people in "his hometown".

So where was Jesus before he started his ministry?  Where he had always been --- in Nazareth, a town of Galilee.

What was he doing during that time?  The son usually takes up the same work as the father, so it's likely that Jesus was working as a carpenter.  "Isn't this the carpenter's son?," the people asked rhetorically.  
  


If someone would go abroad in your hometown at age 12 then go back at age 33, I believe all people would still remember him as the son and brother of so and so..What I am emphasizing is the similarities of the teachings of Confucius and Christ, Confucius ahead of Christ by 600 years. And if Christ's early life is that of a normal child, then something must have happened to Him to learn such knowledge and wisdom.

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #56 on: Jul 07, 2011 at 12:17 AM »
There's no basis for that belief.

Genesis 9:29 says: "Noah lived a total of 950 years, and then he died."

The word "years" was written as "שָׁנֵה", transliterated as "shaneh".  The Strong's Number is 8141:  http://www.strongs-bible.com/1-Strongs-01.htm#c09

Shaneh means "years", plural.  No mistranslation there.  http://qbible.com/h/8141.html

There have been changes with one version of the Torah to another.

Consider this article:

There is another problem with assuming
absolute literal ages for the patriarchs in
Genesis: these ages differ significantly in
the Masoretic (MT), Septuagint (LXX), and
Samaritan Pentateuch (SP) texts. The antediluvial
ages before the birth of the first son
from Adam to Noah is 1,656 years in the
Masoretic text, 1,307 in the Samaritan text,
and 2,262 years in the Septuagint text. The
postdiluvian ages before the birth of the first
son in the interval between the Flood and
Abraham is 292 years in the Masoretic text,
942 years in the Samaritan text, and 1,072
years in the Septuagint text.


I guess the whole point in the above would be that as these ersatz histories were passed down, there must have been changes, however slight, from one generation to the next.  Who's to say that something as innocuous as a noun/verb/adjective that is changed/embellished/inaccurately translated can have such a profound effect on literal meaning?
  

Bible genealogies are useless for calculating periods of time because genealogies in the bible are always incomplete.

Even if you adjust the age of the bible characters, those genealogies would still be useless because they would still be incomplete.  

Bible genealogies are used for connecting blood lines.  If you have an incomplete set of characters, you don't need to adjust their ages to connect blood lines.  You just say X begat Y, which means Y is a descendant of X, even if there were several generations between X and Y that were not mentioned.  

My original post was a paraphrase from Wikipedia:

Among those who believe that all the numbers of Genesis 5, including Methuselah's age, have no meaning at all, Kenneth Kitchen calls them "pure myth", Yigal Levin believes they are intended simply to speed the reader from Adam to Noah, and Claus Westermann believes they are intended to create the impression of a distant past.
« Last Edit: Jul 07, 2011 at 12:21 AM by Verbl Kint »

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #57 on: Jul 07, 2011 at 01:03 AM »
If someone would go abroad in your hometown at age 12 then go back at age 33, I believe all people would still remember him as the son and brother of so and so..

Yes, people would still remember him.  But they would not be amazed about where he got his knowledge because they would assume that he got it from wherever he came from.

But if he never left Galilee, then he suddenly displayed knowledge and miraculous powers, now that would be amazing.



What I am emphasizing is the similarities of the teachings of Confucius and Christ, Confucius ahead of Christ by 600 years.

Confucius was very different from Jesus.

Confucius preached his ideology of benevolence and righteousness that was based on loving people, but he did not go to the bottom level of the society to be friends with them.  Jesus placed more importance on the poor, mingled with them, and made them his disciples.

Confucius said, “Gentlemen have nothing to compete for".  Jesus not only competed with the Jewish religious leaders, he also ridiculed their interpretation of scripture while preaching his own doctrines.

Confucianism relied on the government, but Christianity emphasized spirituality over materialism.

Confucianism remained at the level of academic thought and self-cultivation. Christianity actively went out and preached the Gospel.

The "Golden Rule" did not start with Confucius.   Statements that mirror the Golden Rule appeared as early as Ancient Egypt.  Many prominent religious figures and philosophers have restated it in various ways.  The author Rushworth Kidder notes that this framework appears prominently in many religions, including "Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and the rest of the world's major religions".  The philosopher Simon Blackburn states that the Golden Rule can be "found in some form in almost every ethical tradition".

You say Confucius predates Jesus by 600 years.  But in Judaism, the rule of loving your neighbor as yourself did not originate with Jesus, it originated with Moses.  Thus, Leviticus 19:18 says: "...love your neighbor as yourself".  

The book of Leviticus was written sometime between 1440 and 1400 B.C., thus predating Confucius by 800 years.

In John 13:34, Jesus said: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

To love one another as Jesus loved us goes beyond the golden rule of loving your neighbor as yourself.  Jesus emphasized this difference when he said it was "a NEW command", not the same command found in Leviticus.  

That sort of teaching is definitely not Confucian.



And if Christ's early life is that of a normal child, then something must have happened to Him to learn such knowledge and wisdom.

Nothing happened to him. He always had that knowledge since the beginning of time because he is God incarnate.  

John 1: 1-4; 14 says this about Jesus:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


God incarnate doesn't need to be taught by Confucius.  That wouldn't make sense.

You say Jesus left for Tibet when he was 12 years old, then came back with knowledge at age 33 (should be age 30).

Don't forget that he already displayed great knowledge at 12 years old, when Mary and Joseph found him at the temple discussing with religious teachers:

46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them. (Luke 2:46-50)


He didn't get that from Confucius, that's for sure.  By your reckoning, he hadn't even left for abroad yet.


« Last Edit: Jul 07, 2011 at 05:44 PM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #58 on: Jul 07, 2011 at 11:07 AM »
There have been changes with one version of the Torah to another.

Consider this article:

There is another problem with assuming
absolute literal ages for the patriarchs in
Genesis: these ages differ significantly in
the Masoretic (MT), Septuagint (LXX), and
Samaritan Pentateuch (SP) texts. The antediluvial
ages before the birth of the first son
from Adam to Noah is 1,656 years in the
Masoretic text, 1,307 in the Samaritan text,
and 2,262 years in the Septuagint text. The
postdiluvian ages before the birth of the first
son in the interval between the Flood and
Abraham is 292 years in the Masoretic text,
942 years in the Samaritan text, and 1,072
years in the Septuagint text.


I guess the whole point in the above would be that as these ersatz histories were passed down, there must have been changes, however slight, from one generation to the next.  Who's to say that something as innocuous as a noun/verb/adjective that is changed/embellished/inaccurately translated can have such a profound effect on literal meaning?


If you don't believe the bible is the Word of God, then that's OK.  Just treat bible stories as fables, and there would be no need to search for a correct version.

But if you believe that the bible is the Word of God, then you would also believe that God will make sure that the correct version of the Torah is available.  Otherwise, why would God bother to have his word written if we won't be able to find a correct version anyway?

In studying scripture, reliance must be placed the oldest manuscripts rather than on newer versions.  Rest assured that the oldest manuscripts are consistent.  It is the newer versions that have variations, because the latter scribes tended to make changes that promote their own beliefs.

Yes, it's true that there are unreliable versions and translations of the bible, but those errors are identifiable and traceable.





My original post was a paraphrase from Wikipedia:

Among those who believe that all the numbers of Genesis 5, including Methuselah's age, have no meaning at all, Kenneth Kitchen calls them "pure myth", Yigal Levin believes they are intended simply to speed the reader from Adam to Noah, and Claus Westermann believes they are intended to create the impression of a distant past.

Their opinion is pure speculation.

I don't see why it's so hard to believe that a man can live 900 years during the pre-flood era.

If the human body's cells continue to renew themselves by division and continue to replace old cells, then a man can theoretically live forever.  What scientists can't figure out is why the process slows down and stops.

Therefore, it is why we have to grow old and die that should be considered mysterious.

God designed Adam and Eve to live forever, but when they sinned, God gave their bodies a limited lifespan of around 900 years.  After the great flood, God reduced the average human lifespan to what we have now.

Noah was about 500 years old when he started building the ark; it took him about 100 years to build the ark; then he died when he was 950 years old.  

Now, if Noah was only 70 when he died, then how long did it take for him to build the ark?  The only workers were Noah and his family.  Trees had to be cut, hauled to the construction site, cut into lumber, then dried before they can be suitable for construction.  They didn't have nails, they had to use pegs to hold the lumber together.  Steel hadn't even been invented yet.  Add to that the fact that Noah had to go around preaching during the time he was building the ark (Noah had zero converts, unfortunately).

But if you don't believe the story, that's quite all right.  There's no evidence that Noah even existed, so I can't blame those who dismiss the story as a fable.

However, the way I see it, believing the story of Noah's ark and at the same time believing that he died at only 70 years old just wouldn't make sense.
 
« Last Edit: Jul 07, 2011 at 05:52 PM by barrister »

Offline oweidah

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Re: The Religion Thread
« Reply #59 on: Jul 07, 2011 at 11:11 AM »
yup. that is true. because they have almost perfect climate/weather... natatakpan ng tubig ang mundo (might be possible reason bakit hindi agad sila tumatanda - natatakpan ang araw)... before the flood... hindi pa sila nakakaranas ng ulan...




parang di ko yata ma-gets, pasensha na po. :)