Topic: The Religion Thread

[barrister]

i thought it's the complete opposite for lawyers?  biro lang boss.

I knew someone would say that ...  

[GC]

Today, Google Doodle marks the 374th birth anniversary of the FATHER OF GEOLOGY. Guess who he is.

[Nelson de Leon]

Today, Google Doodle marks the 374th birth anniversary of the FATHER OF GEOLOGY. Guess who he is.

Steno?

[sharkey360]

L.A.-area bishop, father of two, resigns

From humble beginnings in southwest Mexico, Gabino Zavala entered the priesthood and embarked on a remarkable journey that landed him squarely in the corner offices of the nation's largest Roman Catholic archdiocese.

An auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, he oversaw the church's vast San Gabriel region, a diverse community considered vital to the future of the church. Then, from his pulpit, he became a forceful champion for social and economic justice.

Popular and approachable, Zavala was widely known by his first name. To many, that sensibility made the Vatican's announcement Wednesday unthinkable: For more than a decade, Zavala had harbored a dark secret. He is the father, church officials said, of two children and had resigned his post.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/05/local/la-me-catholic-resign-20120105

[bananabond]

Sir barrister, napapagod ba si god the father?

.....It is a sign between me and the Israelites forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'" -Exodus 31:17

[barrister]

Easy lang yan sir.

No, hindi napapagod si God the Father.

Para mapagod na katulad ng tao, kailangan ng physical body.  Kung walang physical body, walang mapapagod.



=====================



"...for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested..."

"Rested" means "ceased" or "stopped."  On the 7th day, God stopped.  It doesn't mean God rested because He was tired; it simply means He stopped because He was finished.

In a court trial, when the prosecution lawyer says to the judge, "the prosecution rests," it doesn't mean that the prosecution rests because it's tired.  It simply means the prosecution stops presenting evidence because they're finished with the presentation of their evidence.


"...and was refreshed."

The word "refreshed" (Hebrew "naphash") literally means to breathe or to be breathed upon.  Figuratively, it means refreshed as if by a current of air.  As used in Exodus 31:17, it refers to the feeling of satisfaction when the maker sees his completed work.  

That's why Gen. 1:31 says, "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."  It was not a physical rest after a physical tiredness that refreshed God.  What was refreshing to God was simply seeing that His creation was very good.  

[Quitacet]

I am just wondering... and this post is directed to barrister specifically, because his posts are really informative.

barrister, what is your view of heaven? Does it exist now, in terms of when a person dies his soul immediately go to there?

The reason I asked is because there are passages in the Bible like in Revelations that say "iluluwal ng dagat ang lahat ng mga nangamatay sa kanya..." which if interpreted literally means that all souls of those who died (regardless when) are awaiting that moment.

[barrister]

Heaven and hell are very complex biblical topics.  I don't want to bore you with the details that you might not be interested in, so I'll just discuss basics.

barrister, what is your view of heaven? Does it exist now, in terms of when a person dies his soul immediately go to there?

My view of heaven conforms with the biblical view.

In the bible, there are three heavens:

(a) The area within the earth's atmosphere (eg: fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Rev. 19:17);
(b) The area outside the earth's atmosphere (eg: I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, Gen. 22:17); and
(c) The spiritual heaven where God dwells (the LORD's throne is in heaven, Ps. 11:4).


Does the third heaven exist now?  --- Yes, of course it does.

When a person dies, does he immediately go to the third heaven? --- No.  When a person dies, he is unconscious.  All he does is await the resurrection.  The book of Revelation has a timeline of events, which states that there will be a first resurrection and a second resurrection.

barrister, what is your view of heaven? Does it exist now, in terms of when a person dies his soul immediately
The reason I asked is because there are passages in the Bible like in Revelations that say "iluluwal ng dagat ang lahat ng mga nangamatay sa kanya..." which if interpreted literally means that all souls of those who died (regardless when) are awaiting that moment.

That's right.  

You're referring to Rev. 20:12.  That part is about the second resurrection.  

Sa second resurrection, mabubuhay uli ang mga namatay na hindi nakasama sa first resurrection.  Kung nalibing siya sa lupa, babangon uli siya mula sa lupa.  Kung namatay siya nang lumubog ang barkong sinasakyan, kasama siya sa sinasabi mong "iluluwal ng dagat ang lahat ng mga nangamatay sa kanya..."

Ang timeline, babalik si Kristo dito sa lupa, then Armageddon.  After Satan is defeated in Armageddon, Christ rules the world, and the first resurrection happens.  After Christ rules the world for 1,000 years, the second resurrection, then the Judgment.
  
Ang lahat ng Kristiyano ay naghihintay ng pagbabalik ni Kristo sa lupa.  Kung ang mga namatay ay pupunta pala agad sa langit, bakit pa babalik dito si Kristo?   Does that make sense to you?  

Sana hinintay na lang tayo ni Kristo sa langit kung instantly ay makakarating din naman pala tayo doon.

[JT]

Im doing a copy and paste so that everyone will know that the doctrine did not just come from me, or my own interpretations or a new revelations. And I wanted to clarify based on what the bible says.

So what happens after death?

Within the Christian faith, there is a significant amount of confusion regarding what happens after death. Some hold that after death, everyone “sleeps” until the final judgment, after which everyone will be sent to heaven or hell. Others believe that at the moment of death, people are instantly judged and sent to their eternal destinations. Still others claim that when people die, their souls/spirits are sent to a “temporary” heaven or hell, to await the final resurrection, the final judgment, and then the finality of their eternal destination. So, what exactly does the Bible say happens after death?

First, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/spirits are taken to heaven, because their sins are forgiven by having received Christ as Savior (John 3:16, 18, 36). For believers, death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). However, passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection? It seems that while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).

Second, for those who do not receive Jesus Christ as Savior, death means everlasting punishment. However, similar to the destiny of believers, unbelievers also seem to be sent immediately to a temporary holding place, to await their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Luke 16:22-23 describes a rich man being tormented immediately after death. Revelation 20:11-15 describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged at the great white throne, and then being cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers, then, are not sent to hell (the lake of fire) immediately after death, but rather are in a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation. However, even though unbelievers are not instantly sent to the lake of fire, their immediate fate after death is not a pleasant one. The rich man cried out, “I am in agony in this fire” (Luke 16:24).

Therefore, after death, a person resides in a “temporary” heaven or hell. After this temporary realm, at the final resurrection, a person’s eternal destiny will not change. The precise “location” of that eternal destiny is what changes. Believers will ultimately be granted entrance into the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36).

Hope it clarifies.

[Clondalkin]

What's the guideline when to interpret a certain word, phrase, passage, sentence or paragraphy literally or figuratively or something else?

[JT]

What's the guideline when to interpret a certain word, phrase, passage, sentence or paragraphy literally or figuratively or something else?

I suggest you read the passages. Some are clear and common sense. For some, get the whole context by also reading the verse before, after and the concurrence verses which is also indicated in your bible. 

Consider Luke 16:24 where it is clear that the rich man died and went straight to hell and being punished. Now this is not a parable since Jesus says a certain rich man and also the name Abraham which is real is mentioned.

[Quitacet]

Heaven and hell are very complex biblical topics.  I don't want to bore you with the details that you might not be interested in, so I'll just discuss basics.



My view of heaven conforms with the biblical view.

In the bible, there are three heavens:

(a) The area within the earth's atmosphere (eg: fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Rev. 19:17);
(b) The area outside the earth's atmosphere (eg: I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, Gen. 22:17); and
(c) The spiritual heaven where God dwells (the LORD's throne is in heaven, Ps. 11:4).


Does the third heaven exist now?  --- Yes, of course it does.

When a person dies, does he immediately go to the third heaven? --- No.  When a person dies, he is unconscious.  All he does is await the resurrection.  The book of Revelation has a timeline of events, which states that there will be a first resurrection and a second resurrection.



That's right.  

You're referring to Rev. 20:12.  That part is about the second resurrection.  

Sa second resurrection, mabubuhay uli ang mga namatay na hindi nakasama sa first resurrection.  Kung nalibing siya sa lupa, babangon uli siya mula sa lupa.  Kung namatay siya nang lumubog ang barkong sinasakyan, kasama siya sa sinasabi mong "iluluwal ng dagat ang lahat ng mga nangamatay sa kanya..."

Ang timeline, babalik si Kristo dito sa lupa, then Armageddon.  After Satan is defeated in Armageddon, Christ rules the world, and the first resurrection happens.  After Christ rules the world for 1,000 years, the second resurrection, then the Judgment.
  
Ang lahat ng Kristiyano ay naghihintay ng pagbabalik ni Kristo sa lupa.  Kung ang mga namatay ay pupunta pala agad sa langit, bakit pa babalik dito si Kristo?   Does that make sense to you?  

Sana hinintay na lang tayo ni Kristo sa langit kung instantly ay makakarating din naman pala tayo doon.

It perfectly makes sense, barrister.

Plus, God will be biased to those who died firsts because they will get to enjoy heaven longer lol

Seriously, thanks for your answer. I appreciate it

[barrister]

What's the guideline when to interpret a certain word, phrase, passage, sentence or paragraphy literally or figuratively or something else?

The guideline is to take the bible as a whole.  The correct interpretation is that which will harmonize all parts of the bible.  Therefore, the reader must not invent his own interpretation.  All he has to do is to allow scripture to interpret itself.

Let's take the example of the story of Lazarus and the rich man, on Luke 16:19-31, often cited as proof that we go to heaven immediately upon death:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:19-31&version=KJV

Jesus narrated this story.  Now, did this story really happen, or was it just a parable?  My view is that it is simply a parable.

If the story really happened, then it means that Lazarus was already in heaven at the time Jesus was speaking.  That view will run contrary to what the bible teaches, which is that nobody has ever gone into heaven except Christ. Thus, Jesus said in the bible:

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man (John 3:13)

If we believe that the spirits of the dead go to heaven immediately, then at least Adam, Lazarus, Job, Moses and  Abaraham should already be there.  Yet what did Jesus say about it?  He said nobody has ever gone into heaven except Himself.  

A very important principle in Christianity is that Christ is first and will always be first when compared to man.  The bible calls Him the "firstfuits" of those who had fallen asleep.  Therefore, if anyone will resurrect, then it must be Christ who should be first.  The bible says:  

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (1 Cor. 15:20-23)

Remember that Christ is the firstfruits.  He is the first one who conquers death.  Those who belong to Him will also conquer death, but only after His second coming.  Christ has not yet returned; therefore nobody has arisen, and nobody has gone to heaven until now.  

Ang interpretation ng iba, si Lazarus daw nasa langit na, nauna pa kay Kristo.  That would only make sense if we deny that Christ is the firstfruits.  But if we take the bible as a whole and accept the truth of the firstfruits principle, then the only option would be to consider the story of Lazarus and the rich man to be a parable and nothing more.

[JT]

To illustrate ...

[JT]

The guideline is to take the bible as a whole.  The correct interpretation is that which will harmonize all parts of the bible.  Therefore, the reader must not invent his own interpretation.  All he has to do is to allow scripture to interpret itself.

I totally agree.  Thats why it is important to check the verses before and after as well as the reference/concurring verses indicated in the bible.

Let's take the example of the story of Lazarus and the rich man, on Luke 16:19-31, often cited as proof that we go to heaven immediately upon death:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:19-31&version=KJV

Jesus narrated this story.  Now, did this story really happen, or was it just a parable?  My view is that it is simply a parable.

If the story really happened, then it means that Lazarus was already in heaven at the time Jesus was speaking.  That view will run contrary to what the bible teaches, which is that nobody has ever gone into heaven except Christ. Thus, Jesus said in the bible:

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man (John 3:13)

If we believe that the spirits of the dead go to heaven immediately, then at least Adam, Lazarus, Job, Moses and  Abaraham should already be there.  Yet what did Jesus say about it?  He said nobody has ever gone into heaven except Himself.   

Bible says Lazarus went to Abraham’s Bosom (not  heaven) and the rich man in Hades. Notice that the rich man brothers are still alive so its not yet resurrection of the dead.  The mere fact that there is consciousness of comforting (by lazarus) and suffering (by rich man) indicates whether it’s a parable or not, sleeping after you die does not fit in.  It is the soul that goes to hades (temporary hell) or to paradise (temporary heaven). When Jesus resurrected, He has taken the captives (in Abraham's bosom) and brought them to paradise. Remember Jesus promised  the thief besides him on cross that “Today you will be with me in paradise”.  It is your soul that has consciousness and feels pain, your body is just a vessel kaya kahit  saktan mo ang bangkay eh din a yun magre-response.

Man is a triune being, spirit, soul and body. When u die, the spirit goes back to God.  In the great white throne judgement, the body will be resurrected and re-united with the soul.  As both will be sent to our final destination either in the Lake of Fire or will be with God forever in the new heaven and new earth.

A very important principle in Christianity is that Christ is first and will always be first when compared to man.  The bible calls Him the "firstfuits" of those who had fallen asleep.  Therefore, if anyone will resurrect, then it must be Christ who should be first.  The bible says: 

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (1 Cor. 15:20-23)

Remember that Christ is the firstfruits.  He is the first one who conquers death.  Those who belong to Him will also conquer death, but only after His second coming.  Christ has not yet returned; therefore nobody has arisen, and nobody has gone to heaven until now. 

Ang interpretation ng iba, si Lazarus daw nasa langit na, nauna pa kay Kristo.  That would only make sense if we deny that Christ is the firstfruits.  But if we take the bible as a whole and accept the truth of the firstfruits principle, then the only option would be to consider the story of Lazarus and the rich man to be a parable and nothing more.

For this premise, how would you explain Lazarus and the other people that jesus has raised from the dead?

[barrister]

Jesus raised them from the dead unchanged.  They did not go to heaven.  They continued to live on earth as before.  Eventually, they died again.

[JT]

Jesus raised them from the dead unchanged.  They did not go to heaven.  They continued to live on earth as before.  Eventually, they died again.

How about Elijah and Enoch which was taken into heaven without seeing death? or Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration?

[barrister]

This is the last time I will answer your questions.  Next time, I will answer only those who are truly interested to learn, not those whose minds are already closed.

How about Elijah and Enoch which was taken into heaven without seeing death?

There are 3 heavens. The verse is not referring to the third heaven because Jesus himself said 900 years later that no one has ever gone into heaven except himself (John 3:13).  Unless of course you want to remove John 3:13 from the bible.

The bible simply says that Elijah was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind and was seen no more.  His body was taken up into the atmosphere, taken down again to earth in a hidden location, and his body was not found again.  That's all the information the bible supplies and it is not for us to speculate about information not provided.  Ikaw naman pala, whirlwind lang, dere-derecho na agad sa third heaven.  Kung whirlwind lang, e di sa first heaven lang yon (atmosphere), ni hindi nga aabot sa second heaven yon (outer space).  

You mean Enoch did not die?   Hebrews 11 mentions Enoch, along with other men of faith, and then stated in verse 13: These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.  Yes, they all died, including Enoch.

Hebrews 11:5 says, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him..."

Enoch "should not see death."  But he died.  What's the difference?  Answer it if you think you're such an expert.

The verse does not say Enoch went to heaven, much less the third heaven.  It simply says he was translated.  According to Strong's, Thayer's and Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, "translate" means "to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer." It simply means that his body was not found because it was transported to another place, not because he was made immortal.


=======================

How about Elijah and Enoch which was taken into heaven without seeing death? or Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration?

You added Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration in an edited post.

As I said, I will no longer answer your questions.  But rest assured that your transfiguration question is very easy to answer.

[Quitacet]

Jesus raised them from the dead unchanged.  They did not go to heaven.  They continued to live on earth as before.  Eventually, they died again.

Isn't it that it was the "spirit" that Jesus asked from God to be brought back so that Lazarus may rise from the dead?

AFAIK, spirit is different from the "soul"

My view is that it's the soul who will go to Heaven to receive eternal life. Spirit is the breath of life (buhay) and Flesh is what we have now together with the soul and spirit.

Many people oftentimes see "spirit" and "soul" as one and the same.

That's why I'm perfectly sold to the idea that no soul of man is on heaven right now.


This is also the reason why I don't believe in "Saints" (no offense to those who do. It's just a matter of personal belief)

[barrister]

Spirit and soul are also very difficult concepts.  What makes them difficult is because the English words used in the translations do not accurately reflect the original meaning.

Yes, there is a difference between soul and spirit.  In the bible, the spirit is the breath of life.  When the spirit combines with the body, the result is the soul.

That is why Gen. 2:7 says: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Therefore, the body without spirit is dead; when the spirit which comes from God combines with the body, the result is a soul, which is simply body + spirit.

[Quitacet]

Spirit and soul are also very difficult concepts.  What makes them difficult is because the English words used in the translations do not accurately reflect the original meaning.

Yes, there is a difference between soul and spirit.  In the bible, the spirit is the breath of life.  When the spirit combines with the body, the result is the soul.

That is why Gen. 2:7 says: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Therefore, the body without spirit is dead; when the spirit which comes from God combines with the body, the result is a soul, which is simply body + spirit.

I thought spirit and soul reside in the body. When a man dies, God claim the spirit (remember when Jesus asked for Lazarus' spirit back), the Flesh rots and the soul awaits judgement.

In first Thessalonian, it is said:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 King James Version (KJV)

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

At pakabanalin kayong lubos ng Dios din ng kapayapaan; at ang inyong espiritu at kaluluwa at katawan ay ingatang buo, na walang kapintasan sa pagparito ng ating Panginoong Jesucristo.

[bananabond]

Easy lang yan sir.

No, hindi napapagod si God the Father.

Para mapagod na katulad ng tao, kailangan ng physical body.  Kung walang physical body, walang mapapagod.



=====================



"...for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested..."

"Rested" means "ceased" or "stopped."  On the 7th day, God stopped.  It doesn't mean God rested because He was tired; it simply means He stopped because He was finished.

In a court trial, when the prosecution lawyer says to the judge, "the prosecution rests," it doesn't mean that the prosecution rests because it's tired.  It simply means the prosecution stops presenting evidence because they're finished with the presentation of their evidence.


"...and was refreshed."

The word "refreshed" (Hebrew "naphash") literally means to breathe or to be breathed upon.  Figuratively, it means refreshed as if by a current of air.  As used in Exodus 31:17, it refers to the feeling of satisfaction when the maker sees his completed work.  

That's why Gen. 1:31 says, "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."  It was not a physical rest after a physical tiredness that refreshed God.  What was refreshing to God was simply seeing that His creation was very good.  

thanks for the answer. dalawa kasi tinanonagn ko sa office isang born again and isang dating daan. same answer kayo ng born again but you were able to explain it better. hindi kasi positive yung concept na napapagod si god, that would make him not omnipotent  thanks again!

[barrister]

I thought spirit and soul reside in the body. When a man dies, God claim the spirit (remember when Jesus asked for Lazarus' spirit back), the Flesh rots and the soul awaits judgement.

It's a very complex topic.  I'm not saying that your views are wrong; I'm just saying that my view is slightly different.

Yes, spirit and soul reside in the body while a person is alive.  The body and spirit together are the living soul.  When a person is alive, he has a soul, which is the seat of his intellect, emotions, etc.

When a person dies, the spirit leaves the body; the body dies and returns to dust.  Consequently, he no longer has a soul, because a person cannot have a mind, personality, will, intellect and emotions if the body is dead.  However, his spirit remains.  

After death, the spirit leaves the body and returns to God until the coming of the resurrection.  During the first resurrection, the saved will resurrect with spiritual bodies.  But the damned will resurrect with physical bodies during the second resurrection for the Judgment.  That's why Rev. 20:19 says:

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

For the second resurrection, the body that returned to dust is reconstructed, the spirit returns to the restored body, and the soul reappears becase the body has reunited with the spirit.  Even if the body decomposed under the seas, the remains will still be reconstructed, the body will come out from the sea, and the spirit will still reunite with the body.

Therefore, there is a soul only while a person  is alive.  There is no soul when a person is dead.

In first Thessalonian, it is said:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 King James Version (KJV)

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

At pakabanalin kayong lubos ng Dios din ng kapayapaan; at ang inyong espiritu at kaluluwa at katawan ay ingatang buo, na walang kapintasan sa pagparito ng ating Panginoong Jesucristo.

We should be careful in analyzing 1 Thessalonians, because the author Paul thought that he and his companions would still be alive when Christ returns, and it should be read in that context.

Note Paul's words in 1 Thess. 4:15-17  

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

But Paul was mistaken.  He and his followers died before Christ could return.  It is in that light that 1 Thess. 5:23 should be understood.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23)

How can Paul be talking about preserving the body, when their bodies shall have turned to dust by the time Christ returns?  That's the problem with the verse --- it applies to those who would be alive at the time of Christ's return, but it would not apply to those who had long been dead.  

But Paul wrote that because he was under the impression that they would still be alive when Christ returns.  Based on that, it would make sense that he and his members would strive to preserve their body, spirit and soul blameless until the coming of Christ.  

And how would they preserve body, spirit and soul blameless?  Paul instructs:

14Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. 15See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. 16Rejoice evermore. 17Pray without ceasing. 18In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 19Quench not the Spirit. 20Despise not prophesyings. 21Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22Abstain from all appearance of evil.  (1 Thess 5:14-22)

That's the backgrouder for the next verse:

23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:14-22)
  

[RU9]

So who goes to heaven?

Is he the one who got lucky in getting the correct version of the bible and interpreting it correctly?

How about the guy who got a different version and interpreted it the another way?

[barrister]

There is a standard by which men will be judged.  I assure you, correct and wrong interpretations of the bible are not among the criteria.

Yung magnanakaw nga na napako sa krus katabi ni Hesus, naligtas.  Sigurado namang walang alam sa scripture ang magnanakaw na yon.   

[bananabond]

Sir barister. I have another question. Matagal ko na ito naiisip pero ngayon ko lang naalala. There was a time na nagbabasa ako ng bible exodus and may specific instructions si god on how to build the ark of the covenant. Napaisip lang ako na bakit gold and gems and precious stones ang gusto ni god doon sa ark... Naisip ko lang kung precious din ba sa kanya itong mga ito katulad ng pag consider ng tao na precious ang ginto etc. ... Naisip ko lang na its something a man would say....making something out of gold. What is gold to a god? Parang its no different to a stone siguro for him and yet he prefer it to be made out of gold. Dagdag na lang kaya ito ni moses? Or mis interpretation?

[JT]

This is the last time I will answer your questions.  Next time, I will answer only those who are truly interested to learn, not those whose minds are already closed.

Aawww, why get offended?  On the contrary, Im open minded and Im really looking forward to your intelligent answer and how does it fare with the bible. In fact Im excited to hear your full understanding on salvation, death and resurrection that's why Im challenging you with these questions.

Anyway the bible says in 1 John 4:1 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Now I want to get back on our subject SPIRIT,SOUL and BODY.

1 Thess 5:14-22 says "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

But in Matthew 10:28 says "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both SOUL and BODY in hell. "

Was it a mistake that the SPIRIT was missed out in Matthew? 1 Thess 5:14-22 is for the Jesus believer's in which the SPIRIT is alive. While Matthew 10:28 is for the unbelievers where the SPIRIT is dead and only the BODY & SOUL goes to hell. And eventually into the Lake of Fire.

Now let me give you a background why unbeliever's got a dead SPIRIT.

In Genesis 1 when God created light and parted the sky,water & land, He just say the Word. But when He created living creatures, He says "Let the land produce vegetation", "Let the water teem with living creatures",  "Let the land produce living creatures". He is created living things out of something so that what comes from it will be sustained by it.  

But for man, God has taken dirt and form it into a man. Then God breathed it and it becomes a living soul. From here, man becomes a triune being SPIRIT (from God), BODY (from dirt) and SOUL (from the union of Spirit and Body).  Thats why our body is sustained by dirt and our spirit is sustained by God.

God said if they eat the forbidden fruit, they will die. The serpent deceived them and when they ate it, they didnt die. Their body and soul didnt die, but the spirit that has come from God died because God cannot live with sin for He is a holy God. What happens when a plant was pulled out from the ground??? it dies. Its exactly what happens when Adam and Eve sinned, the spirit of God was taken out from them and we lost our connection to God.  

This was the fall of man. And all of us, borne from Adam has dead spirit because we are born sinners. Bible says because of Adam's disobedience, all has become sinners.

How can the SPIRIT be alive again? When u got born again. How to be born again? As a start, confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord. If you truly do this, the Holy Spirit will dwell in you and your spirit will be alive again.  

1 Corinthians 6:17 "But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit"

Titus 3:4-7 says "But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

The soul is the essence of humanity’s being; it is who we are. The spirit is the aspect of humanity that connects with God.

There is a standard by which men will be judged.  I assure you, correct and wrong interpretations of the bible are not among the criteria.

Yung magnanakaw nga na napako sa krus katabi ni Hesus, naligtas. Sigurado namang walang alam sa scripture ang magnanakaw na yon.  

By which standard then? So believing in a wrong doctrine still qualifies you for salvation? If you interpret and believe that salvation is by works where bible clearly says salvation is by grace, you think you still qualify?

Now John 12:47-49 says “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who REJECTS me and DOES NOT ACCEPT MY WORDS; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken."

Salvation is by God's grace and the way to receive it is to believe in Jesus. And if there's one thing dun sa magnanakaw eh he believed in Jesus. So thats the only thing needed in order to be saved then just like what Paul says in Acts 16:29-31 "The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”" They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Now, Id like to make it clear that whatever bible interpretions Im sharing to you all did not originate from my own. I myself knows nothing until I was taught, trained and equipped so that I can teach for ISOM (bible school) here in Singapore. From 2009, Im teaching the curriculum of International School Of Ministry which was established by distinguished bible teachers, preachers and church leaders of our generation like TL Osborne, Reinhard Bonnke, John Bevere, Joyce Meyer, Ray Comfort, etc.  You can find the speakers, curriculum and the school details here http://www.isom.org/.  

If you really seek in understanding the bible, I suggest you enrol and take the course (available online).  Since according to the bible we will be judged by the Word of God then it is worth knowing and worth believing for.

[Nelson de Leon]

This is also the reason why I don't believe in "Saints" (no offense to those who do. It's just a matter of personal belief)

Having faith is also different from believing. IMHO, i believe there are saints. I'm not a bible scholar i cannot quote kung saan sa bible ang description ng saint although AFAIK, meron.  Saints are those who have faith (in a biblical context and deeper meaning) and have followed God's will. But i do not pray to them because they are not the means of salvation. Kung sino sino yun mga saints, i am not the one to judge that.

So who goes to heaven?

Is he the one who got lucky in getting the correct version of the bible and interpreting it correctly?

How about the guy who got a different version and interpreted it the another way?

There is a standard by which men will be judged.  I assure you, correct and wrong interpretations of the bible are not among the criteria.

I agree with you. IMHO, this is my belief regarding salvation, which is incidentally, are my favorite verses which inspires me:

Ephesians 2:4-10 (NIV)

 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

And faith is not something we acquire on our own. Faith is a grace which is a gift from God. By ourselves alone, we cannot have faith. And again, faith is different from belief.
example ng belief:
I believe that my computer exists. Why, because i can see it and touch it.
verse 9 i interpret verse 9 as works, (good or bad) will never be a means of salvation. Maski na maghirap, mapagod pa tayo sa kakatulong sa iba. Otherwise we will be "boasting" our good works. Hence, we should be asking ourselves, are we doing this good works so that we will be saved? Or para magyabang tayo na nakatulong tayo sa kapwa? Or para tanggapin tayo sa langit? Or:
verse 10 says that we are God's creation. And in the book of Genesis, lahat ng God's creations are good. Ilan beses paulit ulit yun. I interpret good works as something God has prepared for us in advance to do WHEN we have faith. Meaning as a person who has faith, trabaho pala natin ang good works. No different from an employee who does his work well because the employee is being paid to do his work well.

Titus 3:5-8

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

Sir barister. I have another question. Matagal ko na ito naiisip pero ngayon ko lang naalala. There was a time na nagbabasa ako ng bible exodus and may specific instructions si god on how to build the ark of the covenant. Napaisip lang ako na bakit gold and gems and precious stones ang gusto ni god doon sa ark... Naisip ko lang kung precious din ba sa kanya itong mga ito katulad ng pag consider ng tao na precious ang ginto etc. ... Naisip ko lang na its something a man would say....making something out of gold. What is gold to a god? Parang its no different to a stone siguro for him and yet he prefer it to be made out of gold. Dagdag na lang kaya ito ni moses? Or mis interpretation?

Allow me to give my opinion. First, hindi si Moses ang author ng Exodus so hindi si Moses ang nagdagdag nito if ever man nadagdag.   Regarding gems and gold, IMHO, kaya yun ang inutos ni Lord kay Moses is because probably God knows how valuable gems and gold is to man. Hence, God wants us to offer & sacrifice to God, that which is very valuable to us. God is teaching us na we should only offer ONLU our very best to God. And how valuable are the gems and gold is to God, hindi siguro. Kasi anytime God wants those things, ang dali lang for Him. Mahirap i-interpret ang Diyos in our own way of thinking kasi tao lamang tayo. Hindi tayo Diyos, so there are many things or questions na mahirap din intindihin because we are always thinking in a human way.  Somebody asked me, anong ginagawa ng Diyos before He created the earth? Same answer.  

[RU9]

There is a standard by which men will be judged.  I assure you, correct and wrong interpretations of the bible are not among the criteria.

Yung magnanakaw nga na napako sa krus katabi ni Hesus, naligtas.  Sigurado namang walang alam sa scripture ang magnanakaw na yon.   

Thank you.

It was just a stroke of luck that the the Spaniards introduced us to the Bible.

Would it matter if we got the Koran instead?
 

[barrister]

It's not as if we had no formal religion when the Spaniards arrived.  We already had Islam before they came.  

The Spaniards brought Catholicism.  That religion is not biblical.  You will notice that my posts are based on the bible, but they are vastly diffrerent from Catholicism.  

If the Spaniards had not arrived, Amerikano naman ang magdadala ng bibliya.  Kung gusto mo ng American style born-again doctrines, basahin mo lang yung mga posts ni sir JT.  Wag mo lang akong sisisihin kung imbis na malinawan ka, e lalo kang malabuan ...  

The prophecy in Matthew says, "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (Mt. 24:14)  The end will not come until the gospel is preached to all nations.  Hanggang ngayon, may mga parte pa rin ng mundo na bawal ang bibliya; therefore, we know that that the end is not that near yet.  Nevertheless, we are assured that the gospel would have eventually reached us here even without the Spaniards and the Americans.

But your question is, what if a person dies without knowing about the gospel, impiyerno na ba siya?

The answer is definitely no.

Sin is the transgression of the law.  But if you were never aware of what the law is, it would be unfair to judge you based on rules that you were not aware of.  

In that case, you will be judged according to the law of your conscience, and salvation would still be possible.  

The bible puts it this way:

11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. (Rom. 2:11-16)

May sinasabi ba diyan na kailangang member ka ng isang relihiyon?  Wala naman, di ba?

Pag tinanong mo si sir JT, ang sasabihin, pag hindi ka nila miyembro, impiyerno ka na.

By which standard then? So believing in a wrong doctrine still qualifies you for salvation? If you interpret and believe that salvation is by works where bible clearly says salvation is by grace, you think you still qualify?

Bakit? E kasi, kailangan ka nilang takutin para sumapi ka at dumami ang miyembro, para lumaki ang koleksiyon ...