Topic: The Religion Thread

[dpogs]

Let's put it this way.

Have you ever contradicted any doctrine of your sect?

- free will in terms of salvation
- who will be save (elect vs whosever)
- some minor local church conviction (dress code, places to visit, etc)

modify: under local church conviction
- food to eat (i want to eat all kinds of food as long as hindi panis)

[DVD_Freak]

Can I not walk on that path?

Will you not walk on that path?

[bumblebee]

Will you not walk on that path?

I really don't know where you're going with this. Anyway, hindi ko naman alam yung path ko e. But God already knows, right? Meaning, there's no escaping that path. Gets mo na rin ba?

[dpogs]

So atty. tanungin ko narin dito yung usapan natin sa PM.  If omniscient is not the word to describe a being of this much knowledge, then what is?  because to a certain degree he knows all, with the exception of free will. but the result of each choice that man "may" take, is still known to him.

That's right.

But I'm not aware of any term the bible uses to describe it, so I don't invent my own term.

a man exercise his free will and since God knows the future, He knew what will be the man's choice.

[DVD_Freak]

I really don't know where you're going with this. Anyway, hindi ko naman alam yung path ko e. But God already knows, right? Meaning, there's no escaping that path. Gets mo na rin ba?

 

Alamin mo muna siguro what path you are taking. And if you decide on one, God knows you will eventually choose that path.  So may free will nga.  It's not...there's no  escaping that path. But He knows you well enough which path you will take.

[jhelenz]

^Let me clarify. You're saying God knows what I'm going to do days from now?

oo naman,na predict nga ni Jesus that Peter will disown him not once, not twice but three times. Peter has a chance to prove Jesus wrong but didn't. ganun sya kakilala ng diyos

[bumblebee]

oo naman,na predict nga ni Jesus that Peter will disown him not once, not twice but three times. Peter has a chance to prove Jesus wrong but didn't. ganun sya kakilala ng diyos

Well, ako hindi ko pa alam. You see what I mean now?

[jhelenz]

In that case, Jesus knew what was going to happen only hours before it happened.  Not decades before, not before Peter was born.

That's because Jesus knew what was really in Peter's heart that night.  Peter said he was ready to go to his death for Jesus.  But Jesus knew that in Peter's heart it was not so.  Jesus also knew what Judas, the soldiers and the religious leaders had in their hearts, so He knew about the scheduled arrest and trial.  Jesus also knew the hearts and plans of the other Jews, so He knew that there would be people looking for Jesus' followers that night to kill them, and some will recognize Peter.

No violation of free will there. 

ok, how about the story of Joseph the dreamer. he was told what was going to happen years ago di ba?not hours before it will happen

[pTrader]

That's another mistranslation by the KJV.
 
"For himself" is wrong.  It should be "to its proper end."
 
The NIV has a better rendition: 4 The Lord works out everything to its proper end—even the wicked for a day of disaster.
 
 
==================================
 
 
The original word used was lam·ma·‘ă·nê·hū; root word "maaneh," which means "answer or response."  That's Strong's #4617: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/4617.htm
 
This what the verse means: The Lord works out everything for their own proper end --- yes, the wicked will end up in hell.   
 
God made all of us to end up with God's proper "answer or response" (maaneh).  Those who choose good, the "answer or response" will be heaven; those who choose evil, the "answer or response" will be hell.
 
 
===================================
 
 
Reading the KJV's rendition, it looks like God created wicked people for hell; that they are predestined to go to hell, and they will never be able to do anything to change that. 
 
This wrong rendition of Prov. 16:4 is used by Calvinists to support their false doctrine of predestination.  Calvinist beliefs can be found in some Protestant denominations.
 
 
===================================
 
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/OT/Prov16_4.html

http://www.covenantoflove.net/hell/proverbs-164-does-god-actually-make-the-wicked-specifically-for-destruction/
 
http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/wicked_punishment_proverbs.php

You are making a wrong judgement on Calvinism.

Mat 1:21


New International Version
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

New Living Translation
And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

English Standard Version
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

New American Standard Bible
"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."


I will ask you then why Jesus will save His people not All People?

and why God will show mercy on whom He have mercy.

Romans 9:14
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,


“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


How come that the Saviour only save His people?


Additional:

4 The Lord works out everything to its proper end—even the wicked for a day of disaster.

in the translation you have shown, there is a proper end for everything.

[barrister]

You are making a wrong judgement on Calvinism.

I hope you're not offended sir.

That's my personal view.  I admit I could be wrong, why not.

Si sir dpogs, sanay na sa akin.  There are many beliefs we disagree on.  When he says I'm wrong, Ok lang.  Those are just details.

[barrister]

ok, how about the story of Joseph the dreamer. he was told what was going to happen years ago di ba?not hours before it will happen

Sure. Joseph predicted the famine.  Walang violation of human free will doon. 

How do you explain the story of Abraham and Isaac?

[barrister]

How come that the Saviour only save His people?

His people means those who follow His commandments.  Those who repeatedly sin are not His people.  That's free will. You choose to follow Him or not.

That is not predestination.

[pTrader]

I hope you're not offended sir.

That's my personal view.  I admit I could be wrong, why not.

Si sir dpogs, sanay na sa akin.  There are many beliefs we disagree on.  When he says I'm wrong, Ok lang.  Those are just details.

Ok lang sir, no problemo, marami na rin na attacking the Calvinism pero lacking the roots of what is Calvinism is all about...

[pTrader]

His people means those who follow His commandments.  Those who repeatedly sin are not His people.  That's free will. You choose to follow Him or not.

That is not predestination.

Not so as you explained. Please take a look at this verse:

Romans 9:25 As he says in Hosea:


“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
    and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

It is God's choice.

and then again:

Romans 3:10 As it is written:


“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11     there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
    not even one.”

Think of it..


and now who are His people?

[pTrader]

a man exercise his free will and since God knows the future, He knew what will be the man's choice.

Can anyone choose God?

Romans 3:10 As it is written:


“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11     there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.

[pTrader]

may free will ba ang tao? wala namang free will ang tao, kung may free will siya bakit inde niya magawa lahat ng gustuhin niya?

[majoe]

In that case, Jesus knew what was going to happen only hours before it happened.  Not decades before, not before Peter was born.

That's because Jesus knew what was really in Peter's heart that night.  Peter said he was ready to go to his death for Jesus.  But Jesus knew that in Peter's heart it was not so.  Jesus also knew what Judas, the soldiers and the religious leaders had in their hearts, so He knew about the scheduled arrest and trial.  Jesus also knew the hearts and plans of the other Jews, so He knew that there would be people looking for Jesus' followers that night to kill them, and some will recognize Peter.

No violation of free will there. 

i think it's a premonition.  yung ibang tao may gift na ganyan, si Jesus pa kaya.
pati kilalang kilala na ni Jesus si Peter.  Na test na nga faith ni Peter nung naglakad sila sa dagat.

pwede naman talaga ma foresee ang future base sa plan at current situation. parang laro sa chess.  kita mo na mangyayari after ng ilang moves o napakaraming moves. imminent at bound to happen ang nakita ni Jesus at walang violation ng free will dun.

binigay kasi ng Diyos ang free will kaya di Nya ito pwede i suppress o i control.  pero pwede Nya kunin ang buhay kung kailan Nya gusto. 

[jhelenz]

Sure. Joseph predicted the famine.  Walang violation of human free will doon. 

How do you explain the story of Abraham and Isaac?

atty, my post about Peter is to prove a point that God knows everything, not about free will. sure Jesus knows Peters heart. that he will deny Him. but how does Jesus knows that Peter will be asked 3 times and that Peter will deny Him. doesn't that prove that God is all knowing?

[majoe]

may free will ba ang tao? wala namang free will ang tao, kung may free will siya bakit inde niya magawa lahat ng gustuhin niya?

may katapat ang free wil na bigay sa tao. yun ang mga kautusan ng Diyos.  ngayon, nasa iyo na yun kung ano choice mo. ipinaalam din naman ang mga consequences kaya bahala ka.  si Satan nga, dating angel of light, ang taas na ng position, pero dahil sa free will nya, naghangad pa.

[jhelenz]

may free will ba ang tao? wala namang free will ang tao, kung may free will siya bakit inde niya magawa lahat ng gustuhin niya?

may free will ka bro, kung gusto mo ng tumalon mula sa 12th floor puede mong gawin yun. pero kung pagtalon mo e gusto mong lumipad at lumanding sa lupa ng di nasasaktan, e ibang usapan na yun

[pTrader]

may free will ka bro, kung gusto mo ng tumalon mula sa 12th floor puede mong gawin yun. pero kung pagtalon mo e gusto mong lumipad at lumanding sa lupa ng di nasasaktan, e ibang usapan na yun

any will that is bounded is not free.. meron lang choices ang tao ayon sa boundaries na ibinigay ng Dios.

[majoe]

any will that is bounded is not free.. meron lang choices ang tao ayon sa boundaries na ibinigay ng Dios.

di absolute ang free will. kailangan mo rin kasi i respect free will ng iba.

[pTrader]

di absolute ang free will. kailangan mo rin kasi i respect free will ng iba.

gaya ng sinabi ko if you are bounded then you are not free.

Man was given a will but not free. Pag sinabing free will kaya niyang gawin lahat na walang restriction..

[jhelenz]

any will that is bounded is not free.. meron lang choices ang tao ayon sa boundaries na ibinigay ng Dios.

ah, ang gusto mo pala ay superpower.

any will that is bounded is not free.. meron lang choices ang tao ayon sa boundaries na ibinigay ng Dios.

can you give an example of a will that is bounded? kasi ang nasa isip ko ngaun eh gusto mo ng superpowers.

[dpogs]

Can anyone choose God?

Romans 3:10 As it is written:


“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11     there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.

That is one of my favorite verses. i know what it means when it comes to nature of man. the concept you want to share is usually i didnt mention them in sharing the word of God to unbelievers. as long they know that we are sinners, as long as they know that we need a saving grace, as long as they accept in theirselves that they need a saviour, then as much as possible i didnt mention the total depravity of men.

[dpogs]

ah, ang gusto mo pala ay superpower. can you give an example of a will that is bounded? kasi ang nasa isip ko ngaun eh gusto mo ng superpowers.

i think what ptrader means is law of nature...

[majoe]

gaya ng sinabi ko if you are bounded then you are not free.

Man was given a will but not free. Pag sinabing free will kaya niyang gawin lahat na walang restriction..

pwede mo namang gawin kung anong gusto mo. pero isipin mo na di lang ikaw ang nabubuhay sa mundo.
kung ganun din sila, pwede ka rin nilang ma perwisyo at di ka makapamuhay ng maayos.
chaos pag walang batas o respeto sa isa't isa, alam mo yan.  kaya nga tayo may gobyerno. pero kung gusto mo absolute free will, punta ka sa sa mars, malaya ka dun

[pTrader]

ah, ang gusto mo pala ay superpower. can you give an example of a will that is bounded? kasi ang nasa isip ko ngaun eh gusto mo ng superpowers.

Everything here on earth, invisible and visisble are under the supervision of God. We are living under God's authority.. nasaan yung free will doon?

[majoe]

Everything here on earth, invisible and visisble are under the supervision of God. We are living under God's authority.. nasaan yung free will doon?

then be like God or follow Satan

[pTrader]

pwede mo namang gawin kung anong gusto mo. pero isipin mo na di lang ikaw ang nabubuhay sa mundo.
kung ganun din sila, pwede ka rin nilang ma perwisyo at di ka makapamuhay ng maayos.
chaos pag walang batas o respeto sa isa't isa, alam mo yan.  kaya nga tayo may gobyerno. pero kung gusto mo absolute free will, punta ka sa sa mars, malaya ka dun

pag under ka sa batas nasaan ang free will doon? e lahat tao under the laws of God, nasaan din ang free will doon.

Choices lang ang meron ang tao.