Topic: The Religion Thread

[bumblebee]

at kasama din ang mga lumilipad sa himpapawid


17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Horses and riders? Are we sure this hasn't happened yet? Where are the big guns, battleships and icbms?

[JT]

Thanks brader.

That's another point where we agree.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. (Heb. 11:39-40)

None of them received the promise, because they will be made perfect "only together with us."

Kailangan sabay-sabay tayo.  Hindi puwedeng may grupong nauna.  Hindi puwedeng may na-rapture at nauna sa langit.

If indeed sabay-sabay.  In the book of Revelation, could you explain who are the 24 elders? the two witnesses, and the multitudes in Rev 7:9?

These are all prior to the Great White Throne where the final judgement occurs.

[barrister]

If indeed sabay-sabay.  In the book of Revelation, could you explain who are the 24 elders? the two witnesses, and the multitudes in Rev 7:9?

These are all prior to the Great White Throne where the final judgement occurs.

They are not human.

Ang sabi ko, sabay-sabay tayo.  Meaning, tayong mga tao.  Hindi kasama yung hindi tao. 

The elders and four living creatures are not human.

The 144,000 and the multitudes are human, but they are not in heaven yet.

[JT]

They are not human.

Ang sabi ko, sabay-sabay tayo.  Meaning, tayong mga tao.  Hindi kasama yung hindi tao. 

Not humans??? Are you sure about that interpretation of yours? Could you support any verse pls.

Rev 7:9 clearly these are humans.


 

[barrister]

No, not all of them are humans.

In heaven now are the elders and the four living creatures.  They are not human.

Not yet in heaven are the 144,000 and the multitudes.  But they are human.

[JT]

No, not all of them are humans.

In heaven now are the elders and the four living creatures.  They are not human.

Not yet in heaven are the 144,000 and the multitudes.  But they are human.

So some of them are? Still, san galing yun?

Actually, the elders seems to be humans also kasi may crown. Checking from the bible, no angels or other heavenly beings except God, Jesus and the saints are having crown.

[barrister]

So some of them are? Still, san galing yun?

Actually, the elders seems to be humans also kasi may crown. Checking from the bible, no angels or other heavenly beings except God, Jesus and the saints are having crown.

The beast has ten crowns.
 
Does the bible also say that only humans can have crowns?
 
I need clarification first.  I believe there are no humans in heaven yet.  Do you believe there are humans in heaven now?
 
I think that's the basic difference in our beliefs on this issue.
 

[JT]

The beast has ten crowns.
 
Does the bible also say that only humans can have crowns?

So are you saying yung The Beast will also be in heaven? Nandun din sya before the throne and before the Lamb?

[barrister]

No, I was only following your argument that the elders must be human, because only humans can have crowns.
 
If the beast has crowns and the beast is not human, then it is not true that only humans can have crowns.
 
That's the simple logic of my statement.

[JT]

I need clarification first.  I believe there are no humans in heaven yet.  Do you believe there are humans in heaven now?
 
I think that's the basic difference in our beliefs on this issue.

So if there are no humans in heaven yet, when do you think the humans will be there?

[JT]

No, I was only following your argument that the elders must be human, because only humans can have crowns.
 
If the beast has crowns and the beast is not human, then it is not true that only humans can have crowns.
 
That's the simle logic of my statement.

Yah but we are talking about heavenly realms here. But yes, The Beast has crowns also which most likely a symbolism (as the beast are) and not as actual crown.

[barrister]

So if there are no humans in heaven yet, when do you think the humans will be there?

 
I want to reconcile our differences, but you seem to prefer an argument.

If you don't want to answer my question, then just say so, and that's ok with me.

Don't ask another question and prolong a useless discussion.

[JT]

 
I want to reconcile our differences, but you seem to prefer an argument.

If you don't want to answer my question, then just say so, and that's ok with me.

Don't ask another question and prolong a useless discussion.

Well I'm sorry if naging argumentative ang approach ko but its definitely not useless discussion.

You said sabay sabay which I assume you are referring to the Great White Throne judgement. But there are verses in the bible referring to multitude appearing before the Throne and before the Lamb and this is before the Final Judgement.

So how do you reconcile that with your doctrine?

[barrister]

Answer this first, because your answer will help me find the proper approach:

I need clarification first.  I believe there are no humans in heaven yet.  Do you believe there are humans in heaven now?
 
I think that's the basic difference in our beliefs on this issue.

[panzimus]

As already explained above, there is no rapture in 1 Thes. 4:13-17 or 5:9.

You also cited Mat. 24:40-41:

Mat 24:40-41 is not a rapture: 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

The parallel verse in Luke explains:

34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:34-37)

One will be taken and the other one left.
 
Where will they be taken?  To heaven?  No. 
 
Those who will be taken will not be raptured to heaven, they will simply die physically.

Verse 37 --- They asked: Where will their dead bodies be taken?  Jesus answered: They end up with the vultures.  Look for the places where vultures gather and you'll see the places where their dead bodies were gathered and dumped.

Sir, i want to know bakit mamamatay physically yung mga yun? I mean for what purpose or reason?

[barrister]

Hindi naman mamamatay dahil may isang supreme reason kung bakit dapat mangyari yon.
 
Maraming mamamatay, kasi panahon na ng abomination of desolation, of great distress, which is one of the signs that Christ is about to return.
 
Ang dapat, alam natin ang timeline of events sa Revelation.  Pag hindi, mahirap talagang intindihin yan. 
 
Tignan mo ang topic sa Matthew 24 --- the signs of Christ's return and of the end of the age:
 
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Mt. 24:3)
 
In those times, there will be great distress:
 
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. (Mt. 24:15-21)
 
The distress will be unequalled from the beginning of the world and never to be equalled again. Meaning, the distress will be worse than the time of Noah, worse than the destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70 AD, worse than World War I or II.

 
Look at the first four seals, corresponding to the four horsemen: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+6
 
1. White Horse - Conqueror;
2. Red Horse -  War (a result of the conqueror's actions);
3. Black Horse - Famine (a result of war); 
4. Pale Horse - Death (a result of war and famine), with the pale horse given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
 
With that kind of a situation, with wars, famine, plagues, and wild beasts of the earth, with great distress that will be worse than anything ever experienced in human history, then of course many will die. 
 

[panzimus]

ah gets ko na sir. kala ko kasi yung sinabi dun is yung bigla na lang mamamatay without cause like yung parang kasama mo lang tapos all of the sudden patay na agad. so its talking about the deaths na will be caused by the four horsemen (as you stated above the logical explanation from the White Horse down to the Pale Horse).

Maraming salamat brader! bago na namang karunungan from you.

[dpogs]

Before death of Christ, souls of believers/christians will go to a temporary place it could be the paradise, or abrahams bossom or temp heaven. After resurrection, they go to heaven.

There are two judgement, bema and great white tjrone judgement. Bema is for the believers, prize will be given according to believers work. If no work done, no prize but still will have eternal life.

[pTrader]

Yup kasama sila sa second coming but will not fight. Jesus alone will destroy His enemies. Those who have beeb raptured they will be rulers during 1000 years reign of Jesus..

Rev 20 NIV

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Is this 1000 years literal or just a period of time?

[dpogs]

Rev 20 NIV

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Is this 1000 years literal or just a period of time?

I believe in 6-day creation. I believe in 7 year tribulation. I believe in 1000 reign of Jesus Christ.

[pTrader]

I believe in 6-day creation. I believe in 7 year tribulation. I believe in 1000 reign of Jesus Christ.

What has to be considered the first resurrection?

[dpogs]

Daniel 12:2 KJV "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."


First resurrection simply means "resurrection to eternal life". There are some "first resurrection" that was recoreded in the Bible and some will yet to come

First resurrection that already happened:
1. Resurrection of Jesus Christ
2. Resurrection of Jerusalem saints
3. We 'may' include Lazarus' resurrection

First resurrection that will yet to come
1. Resurrection of the great church before tribulation
2. Resurrection after tribulation of those who died martyr/beheaded during tribulation.

Second resurrection is what we called "resurrection to eternal damnation" or "second death" and this will happen only once after 1000 year reign of Jesus in preparation for great white throne judgement. Unbelievers who died from all ages will be resurrected for eternal damnation.

[pTrader]

Daniel 12:2 KJV "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."


First resurrection simply means "resurrection to eternal life". There are some "first resurrection" that was recoreded in the Bible and some will yet to come

First resurrection that already happened:
1. Resurrection of Jesus Christ
2. Resurrection of Jerusalem saints
3. We 'may' include Lazarus' resurrection

First resurrection that will yet to come
1. Resurrection of the great church before tribulation
2. Resurrection after tribulation of those who died martyr/beheaded during tribulation.

Second resurrection is what we called "resurrection to eternal damnation" or "second death" and this will happen only once after 1000 year reign of Jesus in preparation for great white throne judgement. Unbelievers who died from all ages will be resurrected for eternal damnation.

would it be that this is the first ressurection, since the verse in Rev 20 said first ressurection:

First resurrection that already happened:
1. Resurrection of Jesus Christ
2. Resurrection of Jerusalem saints

Mat 27 NIV

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection ande went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

And they are with Christ right now.

Rev 20 NIV

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[majoe]

Horses and riders? Are we sure this hasn't happened yet? Where are the big guns, battleships and icbms?

hindi kasi literal ang pagkakasulat sa revelation kaya ganyan

[bumblebee]

hindi kasi literal ang pagkakasulat sa revelation kaya ganyan

E yung beast literal? How about the 144000? The dragon? Woman clothed in the sun? The trumpets? The seals? Which ones are literal and which ones aren't?

[DVD_Freak]

E yung beast literal? How about the 144000? The dragon? Woman clothed in the sun? The trumpets? The seals? Which ones are literal and which ones aren't?

Why don't you enlighten us with your own interpretation instead of continuous shallow questions?   

[majoe]

E yung beast literal? How about the 144000? The dragon? Woman clothed in the sun? The trumpets? The seals? Which ones are literal and which ones aren't?

syempre symbolic ang beast, dragon, at woman clothed in sun.
144,000 ay literal. sila ang 12,000 people from each tribes (12 tribes) of Israel.
trumpet and seals literal pero heavenly matters yata ito. 

[bumblebee]

syempre symbolic ang beast, dragon, at woman clothed in sun.
144,000 ay literal. sila ang 12,000 people from each tribes (12 tribes) of Israel.
trumpet and seals literal pero heavenly matters yata ito. 

What I'm trying to say is how do we tell the literal from the symbolic?

[JT]

Answer this first, because your answer will help me find the proper approach:

Apologies for late reply. Yes, I do believe there are already humans there now.

Even before the Great White Throne Judgement comes where God will gather all. Revelation 7:9 says "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, PEOPLES, and tongues, standing BEFORE THE THRONE and BEFORE THE LAMB, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,"

Consider the parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus. There is an immediate destination after death and there is consciousness of their situations. For the righteous, it is in Abraham's Bosom, and the wicked at the Hades. But this is prior to Jesus redemptive work. When Jesus was in the cross, He promised one of the thief "“Assuredly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with Me in PARADISE.”  Didn't say, today i put you to sleep or you wait.

Surely God has reserved a place for the dead. Grave for the body, either paradise(probably some place in heaven) for the righteous or hades(gates of hell) for the wicked. But this is not the resurrection of the dead yet. When a true and faithful believers of Jesus Christ die, the spirit and soul is alive and is taken up. For non believers, the spirit(which is from God) is dead(due to Adam & Eve's sin) but the soul(it is eternal) is alive that is taken down to Hades. 

The soul and body will only then be reunited in the resurrection.

[dpogs]

+1