Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 163630 times)

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Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1200 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 09:30 PM »
May I ask, if you believe that God created all species of life on earth individually (meaning not through evolution), why do you think over 99% of all life He ever created is now extinct? Was He somehow just doing it through trial and error?

I can give you a longer answer on "The Religion Thread," but for purposes of this thread, here's my short answer:

No, God was not creating by trial and error.  God's creation was finished after the 6th day, and was not an ongoing trial and error procedure. 

Creation was "very good" (me'od tov) originally, but after the fall of Adam, things changed.
« Last Edit: Jan 13, 2015 at 09:30 PM by barrister »

Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1201 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 10:16 PM »

That is not what “falsifiability” means.
 
For a theory to be falsifiable, it is not sufficient that someone argues against it.  Falsifiability means the possibility of showing to be false. 
 
For example, if I say the earth is round, all you have to do is show me a picture of a flat earth taken from space, and the statement is falsified. 

Therefore, the statement is falsifiable because it is possible to take a picture of the earth from space, and the inability to produce the falsifying data makes the statement true.   
 
But if I say all Filipinos will rule the earth after 1 million years, the statement is unfalsifiable because it is impossible to show it to be false without waiting for a million years.
 
Evolutionism is unfalsifiable because there is no way to test the claim that all living things have a common origin. 
 
Q: Why are there no transitional forms, when millions of fossils have already been found? A: Because the fossil record is still incomplete.
 
Q: If evolution is a gradual process, why do fossils show systematic gaps, with new kinds of life suddenly appearing?  A: If new species suddenly appears, then this is proof of punctuated equilibrium (no change for long periods, then sudden appearance of new species). 
 
Evolution is a gradual process = This proves Darwinism is correct.  New forms of life suddenly appear = This proves that punctuated equilibrium is correct, and evolution is still correct.


Simply stated, evolutionism is unfalsifiable because it has the ability to explain anything.  It’s a no-lose situation for the evolutionists.  Just invent a bunch of contradictory, speculative explanations and the theory can never be falsified.   

so what sir docelmo was trying to before about falsifying evolution with the "whale" argument doesn't count?

Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1202 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 10:27 PM »


None of those can be considered proof of evolution, because all that shows is circular reasoning.
 
Fossil records, DNA, embryos, etc. of different species show similarities.  Conclusion?  One evolved from the other.  Why do you conclude evolution on the mere basis of similarities?  Because they are similar.
 
That is circular reasoning because you only returned to where you started from.

The conclusion is based on speculation.  Similarity does not show evolution, it merely shows similarity and nothing more. 

A frog is similar to a man --- both have legs, eyes, noses, ears, etc.  Therefore, frogs evolved into men because they have similarities? 

To conclude ancestry from mere similarity is speculative.  Like saying that a carriage is similar to a car; therefore carriages evolved into cars by random chance without a designer. 

creationists like you don't count it as evidence. actual scientists do.

also, you're a lawyer. do you not encounter circumstantial evidences in your field of work?

from a definition of circumstantial evidence:
"Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact—like a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directly—i.e., without need for any additional evidence or inference.

On its own, circumstantial evidence allows for more than one explanation. Different pieces of circumstantial evidence may be required, so that each corroborates the conclusions drawn from the others. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more likely once alternative explanations have been ruled out."

these evidences that you so happily disregard are so many ways like that. each fossil record discovered corroborates claims made my evolution. they may be incomplete but they are overwhelmingly enough to support the theory.

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1203 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 10:37 PM »
Just like I said before, ID starts at 100 while evolution starts at zero. You are already arguing about the design of DNA, why don't start with the intelligence that designed the DNA? Did it just popped out of thin air?

For the record, I advocate both Evo and ID working together to get us here... natatawa lang ako kasi nag-aargue ang magkabilang side starting on different time premise.
Both ID and Evolution are called Historical Science because both are inferring the causes of an event in the distant past. What is being debated or contested is the question of causation, ID is saying intelligent agency while Evolution is saying natural undirected random mutation.

As to the nature of the Intelligence, In the book “Signature in the Cell” Meyer said: “I didn’t even like the term “supernatural”. The better philosophical distinction is between transcendent and immanent. Are we talking of an intelligence within the cosmos or an intelligence that is in some way beyond it? It doesn’t really matter, all the theory of Intelligent Design is doing is establishing that intelligence was responsible for certain features of life.”
So either way the “Intelligence that designed the DNA” did not just popped out of thin air furthermore the information in the DNA did not appear spontaneously.

As to the information in the DNA, to put it bluntly nobody can explain the origin of the information by any of the naturalistic, material processes. However Crick came up with The Sequence Hypotheses  his idea was that the along DNA molecule there were four chemicals that functioned just like alphabetic characters in a written language….information. And information can only come from Intelligence.

If by evolution you are referring to “change over time” or even microevolution both are acceptable and not in conflict with ID because both of these are in fact happening. What separates ID from Evolution is the mechanism by which evolution stands that the emergence and  complexity of life arose by undirected random variation/mutation with natural selection.
« Last Edit: Jan 14, 2015 at 05:24 PM by docelmo »
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1204 on: Jan 13, 2015 at 10:46 PM »
"Predictability" refers to something in the future, not in the past.

Evolutionism says its theory is predictable, yet it always refers to something in the past and not in the future.  Yes, the fossil was discoved after the prediction, but the evolutionary event it relates to is a past event that happened before the prediction.

To demonstrate predictability, they must predict an evolutionary event in the future, instead of merely "predicting" the discovery of a fossil.



a scientific prediction does not necessarily mean "to predict a future event". If you dreamed a meteoroid will crash into the White House on New Year's day, that's a prophecy, not a scientific prediction.

you're misunderstanding what a scientific prediction is like most people are misunderstanding what a Theory is in Science.

it's like when Peter Higgs predicted the Higgs Boson and which physicists at CERN's LHC confirmed, paleontologists discovered fossils that evolution predicted.

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1205 on: Jan 14, 2015 at 08:21 AM »
so what sir docelmo was trying to before about falsifying evolution with the "whale" argument doesn't count?

I get sir barrister's point.

Evolution becomes unfalsifiable on two points. First the very nature of what it seeks to explain is a past event and is no longer happening. Second the transition of animals from say "dinosaur to bird" by random mutation/natural selection cannot be verified and the smorgasboard of other materialistic procceses as still part of the evolutionary processes even those that contradict its main hypothesis. The mechanisms are so varied that even the discovery of living fossils is claimed as evolution!

So how to falsify it......the devil is in the details!

In the case of the whale evolution, it was showned that the animals purported to be part of the whale evolution were of questionable nature add to that the limitations posted by population genetics studies on needed mutations to chance one animal to the next in the backdrop of the time period for which evolution has to do its magic.....that's where the whale evolution sinks!
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Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1206 on: Jan 14, 2015 at 11:51 AM »
a scientific prediction does not necessarily mean "to predict a future event". If you dreamed a meteoroid will crash into the White House on New Year's day, that's a prophecy, not a scientific prediction.
you're misunderstanding what a scientific prediction is like most people are misunderstanding what a Theory is in Science.
it's like when Peter Higgs predicted the Higgs Boson and which physicists at CERN's LHC confirmed, paleontologists discovered fossils that evolution predicted.


A prediction relates to the future, that's why it's called a "prediction."  From "pre" (prae, before) and "dict" (dicere, to say), meaning, "to say before it happens."
 
In the same manner, predictability in science also relates to the future, because it relates to reproducibility; in other words, testability.
 
For an experiment to be accepted as scientific evidence, the experiment must be reproducible and repeatable by others working independently.  If the experiment produces a result different from the prediction, the theory is false; if it consistently produces the same result, the theory is confirmed. 
 
When will confirmation arise?  After the prediction, not before.  Thus, the prediction relates to the future confirmatory event.
 
For example, I say hot air is heavier than cold air, and I predict that hot air rises, while cold air falls.  The prediction will be confirmed by the results of my experiment, and by the similar results of similar experiments performed by other independent persons. 
 
When did confirmation arise?  After the prediction, not before.  In other words, the confirmation is a future event in relation to the time the prediction was made.
 
The Higgs boson started as a prediction, which was later believed to have been confirmed by the LHC results.  When did confirmation arise?  After the prediction, not before.  In other words, a future event.
 
Predictability is related to reproducibility, which means that it is testable by others.  Other independent scientists can repeat the experiment and produce evidence for the direct decay of the 125 GeV Higgs boson to fermions.
 
Now compare that to evolutionism. 
 
You said, "Darwin predicted that Precambrian fossils would be found."  That is not a prediction that supports evolutionism. 
 
Finding pre-Cambrian fossils proves only that pre-Cambrian life forms existed on earth; it does not prove that they evolved into Cambrian life forms.  Therefore, the "prediction" only showed past existence, but it did not show a confirmation of the evolutionary theory of common ancestry.   
 
Here's an example of a scientific prediction concerning evolution --- If they predict that random mutation can increase the information in the genome, and perform a reproducible fruit fly experiment that demonstrates it, then that will be reasonable confirmation of a scientific prediction.  When will the confirmation come?  In the future, when the experimental result confirms the prediction.   
 
 
creationists like you don't count it as evidence. actual scientists do.
also, you're a lawyer. do you not encounter circumstantial evidences in your field of work?
from a definition of circumstantial evidence:
"Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact—like a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directly—i.e., without need for any additional evidence or inference.
On its own, circumstantial evidence allows for more than one explanation. Different pieces of circumstantial evidence may be required, so that each corroborates the conclusions drawn from the others. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more likely once alternative explanations have been ruled out."
these evidences that you so happily disregard are so many ways like that. each fossil record discovered corroborates claims made my evolution. they may be incomplete but they are overwhelmingly enough to support the theory.

The basis of circumstantial evidence is the inference that can be reasonably connected to a conclusion of fact.  If there is no reasonable inference that can be connected to the conclusion of fact, then that is not circumstantial evidence; in fact, that is not evidence at all.
 
To prove that Mr. X was at the scene of the crime, a witness who saw him there is presented ---- that is direct evidence.   His palm print on the wall at the scene is presented --- that is circumstantial evidence.  A book that happened to be written by his favorite author is found therein --- that is not evidence at all.
 
To prove common ancestry, a witness who personally observed evolution is presented --- that is direct evidence.  Proof that random mutations can increase information in the genome is presented --- that is circumstantial evidence.  Fossils with similarities are presented ---- that is not evidence at all.

No conclusion of ancestry can be inferred from mere morphological similarity.  Since no inference can be made, then the same cannot be considered circumstantial evidence.
 

so what sir docelmo was trying to before about falsifying evolution with the "whale" argument doesn't count?

No, of course not.

Debunk all existing transitional whale fossil candidates, and evolutionism is still not falsified.

Why not?  Because evolutionists say that the fossil evidence is not yet complete.  Just wait and a true transitional fossil will be eventually discovered.

So, until 100% of all fossils are discovered by excavating every inch of the earth, the theory is unfalsifiable.   
« Last Edit: Jan 14, 2015 at 09:03 PM by barrister »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1207 on: Jan 14, 2015 at 05:18 PM »
"Debunk"
-expose the falseness or hollowness  of (a myth, idea, or belief).

So, its clear what we're doing is debunking the theory by pointing out the errors in the so-called evidence presented.
The only way that it could be falsified is when evolutionists accept that the "missing links" are not only missing but in fact does not exist.(but i doubt this will ever happen).
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Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1208 on: Jan 14, 2015 at 09:12 PM »
 
Just curious, doc.
 
Are you a Young-Earth Creationist, or an Old-Earth Creationist?
 
YEC yata si sir dpogs.
« Last Edit: Jan 14, 2015 at 09:13 PM by barrister »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1209 on: Jan 14, 2015 at 10:48 PM »

Just curious, doc.
 
Are you a Young-Earth Creationist, or an Old-Earth Creationist?
 
YEC yata si sir dpogs.
Old-earth, Atty.

Re watched a bbc docu The Code hosted by mathematician Marcus du Sautoy. He said some really interesting stuff....

The fact that the most fundamental units(prime numbers, pi, i) of mathematics could be found woven into the natural world, is not only compelling evidence that the code exists but also that numbers under pin everything. From the patterns and numbers all around us we've deciphered a hidden code. This code describes our world with astonishing accuracy, The fact that the code gives a succesful discription of our world is for many one of the greatest mysteries of science. The only thing that makes sense is that weve discovered some deep truth about the world.

Codes, patterns can only come from......intelligence!
« Last Edit: Jan 14, 2015 at 11:29 PM by docelmo »
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Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1210 on: Jan 14, 2015 at 11:42 PM »
Old Earth din pala.  Thanks for the quick reply.
 
Marcus du Sautoy?  Interesting.  I'll have to google that.
 
Tignan natin kung nonsense din ...  ;)

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1211 on: Jan 15, 2015 at 08:15 PM »
I watched some YouTube trailers of BBC's The Code featuring mathematician Marcus du Sautoy.
 
It seems very good and looks very interesting.
 
Du Sautoy is an atheist-evolutionist, but he's not one of those annoying atheist-evolutionists who think all creationists are ignorant hillbilly hicks.
 
Du Sautoy is the chair of Oxford University's Simonyi Professorship for the Public Understanding of Science.  The aim of the Simonyi Professorship is "to communicate science to the public without, in doing so, losing those elements of scholarship which constitute the essence of true understanding."
 
The Professorship was established for Richard Dawkins in 1995.  Du Sautoy, who succeded to Richard Dawkins, is only the second person to occupy the chair.
 
Thank goodness Dawkins is out, since his weirdo rants have recently become quite the embarrassment for the atheist community.  And I'm talking about the atheists who are true intellectuals, not the atheists who are only pretending to be smart.
 
Peter Higgs is one of those who have publicly called Dawkins' abrasive style "embarrassing:"
 
Peter Higgs criticises Richard Dawkins
over anti-religious 'fundamentalism'
Higgs boson theorist says he agrees with those who find
Dawkins' approach to dealing with believers 'embarrassing'

Alok Jha, science correspondent
Wednesday 26 December 2012

Peter Higgs


As public disagreements go, few can have boasted such heavy-hitting antagonists.

On one side is Richard Dawkins, the celebrated biologist who has made a second career demonstrating his epic disdain for religion. On the other is the theoretical physicist Peter Higgs, who this year became a shoo-in for a future Nobel prize after scientists at Cern in Geneva showed that his theory about how fundamental particles get their mass was correct.

Their argument is over nothing less than the coexistence of religion and science.

Higgs has chosen to cap his remarkable 2012 with another bang by criticising the "fundamentalist" approach taken by Dawkins in dealing with religious believers.

"What Dawkins does too often is to concentrate his attack on fundamentalists. But there are many believers who are just not fundamentalists," Higgs said in an interview with the Spanish newspaper El Mundo. "Fundamentalism is another problem. I mean, Dawkins in a way is almost a fundamentalist himself, of another kind."

He agreed with some of Dawkins' thoughts on the unfortunate consequences that have resulted from religious belief, but he was unhappy with the evolutionary biologist's approach to dealing with believers and said he agreed with those who found Dawkins' approach "embarrassing".

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/dec/26/peter-higgs-richard-dawkins-fundamentalism
« Last Edit: Jan 19, 2015 at 01:47 AM by barrister »

Offline Klaus Weasley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1212 on: Jan 17, 2015 at 01:31 AM »
Richard Dawkins and the New Atheists do tend to be harsh when it comes to being anti-religion but no atheist has ever fire bombed a church nor strapped bombs to themselves to take out religious people. The worst, most hardcore atheist is just an obnoxious a-hole, not a suicide bomber.
« Last Edit: Jan 17, 2015 at 01:32 AM by Klaus Weasley »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1213 on: Jan 17, 2015 at 11:42 AM »
I watched some YouTube trailers of BBC's The Code featuring mathematician Marcus du Sautoy.
 
It seems very good and looks very interesting.
 
Du Sautoy is an athest-evolutionist, but he's not one of those annoying atheist-evolutionists who think all creationists are ignorant hillbilly hicks.
 
Du Sautoy is the chair of Oxford University's Simonyi Professorship for the Public Understanding of Science.  The aim of the Simonyi Professorship is "to communicate science to the public without, in doing so, losing those elements of scholarship which constitute the essence of true understanding."
 
The Professorship was established for Richard Dawkins in 1995.  Du Sautoy, who succeded to Richard Dawkins, is only the second person to occupy the chair.
 
Thank goodness Dawkins is out, since his weirdo rants have recently become quite the embarrassment for the atheist community.  And I'm talking about the atheists who are true intellectuals, not the atheists who are only pretending to be smart.
 
Peter Higgs is one of those who have publicly called Dawkins' abrasive style "embarrassing:"
 
Peter Higgs criticises Richard Dawkins
over anti-religious 'fundamentalism'
Higgs boson theorist says he agrees with those who find
Dawkins' approach to dealing with believers 'embarrassing'

Alok Jha, science correspondent
Wednesday 26 December 2012

Peter Higgs


As public disagreements go, few can have boasted such heavy-hitting antagonists.

On one side is Richard Dawkins, the celebrated biologist who has made a second career demonstrating his epic disdain for religion. On the other is the theoretical physicist Peter Higgs, who this year became a shoo-in for a future Nobel prize after scientists at Cern in Geneva showed that his theory about how fundamental particles get their mass was correct.

Their argument is over nothing less than the coexistence of religion and science.

Higgs has chosen to cap his remarkable 2012 with another bang by criticising the "fundamentalist" approach taken by Dawkins in dealing with religious believers.

"What Dawkins does too often is to concentrate his attack on fundamentalists. But there are many believers who are just not fundamentalists," Higgs said in an interview with the Spanish newspaper El Mundo. "Fundamentalism is another problem. I mean, Dawkins in a way is almost a fundamentalist himself, of another kind."

He agreed with some of Dawkins' thoughts on the unfortunate consequences that have resulted from religious belief, but he was unhappy with the evolutionary biologist's approach to dealing with believers and said he agreed with those who found Dawkins' approach "embarrassing".

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/dec/26/peter-higgs-richard-dawkins-fundamentalism
"The Code" is a 3-part series dealing with three topics Numbers, Shapes and Predictions.
Right, the prof is an evolutionist although he did say that evolution had little to do with the bees making hexagonal shapes and the prime number cycle of the cicadas he said it was as if it "ingrained in the dna". He also mentioned st augustine's heavenly numbers and acknowledged that augustine and the builder of medieval cathedral has discovered and tapped these laws of the universe.
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Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1214 on: Jan 19, 2015 at 04:47 PM »
Richard Dawkins and the New Atheists do tend to be harsh when it comes to being anti-religion but no atheist has ever fire bombed a church nor strapped bombs to themselves to take out religious people. The worst, most hardcore atheist is just an obnoxious a-hole, not a suicide bomber.

There are good theists and bad theists, just as there are good atheists and bad atheists.
 
Being an atheist does not automatically mean immorality.  But atheist murderers exist.  There is such a thing as an atheist who persecuted religions, closed churches and committed genocide in the tens of millions.
 
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/atheism/805-answering-atheists-regarding-war.htm
 
« Last Edit: Jan 20, 2015 at 10:03 AM by barrister »

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1215 on: Jan 19, 2015 at 09:44 PM »
In 2007, atheist Pekka-Eric Auvinen writes on his website:
 
I am prepared to fight and die for my cause, . . . I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection. No, the truth is that I am just an animal, a human, an individual, a dissident . . . . It’s time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!
 
Auvinen enters the Jokela High School in Finland armed with a semi-automatic pistol, kills 8 and wounds 12, then shoots himself in the head.
 
« Last Edit: Jan 19, 2015 at 09:45 PM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1216 on: Jan 19, 2015 at 10:08 PM »
 
Eric Harris, atheist, writes:
 
“Sometime in april me and V (Klebold) will get revenge and will kick natural selection up a few notches. We will be in all black. Dusters, black army pants ...we will have knifes and blades and backup weaponry all over our bodies.”
 
April 1999:
 
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold enter Columbine High School, kill 15, injure 24, then shoot themselves in the head.
 
On the day of the massacre, Harris wore a white T-shirt with the words "Natural selection" printed in black.
« Last Edit: Jan 20, 2015 at 04:41 PM by barrister »

Offline sardaukar

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1217 on: Jan 20, 2015 at 02:52 PM »
Where do neanderthals and other homos fit in the context of God's creation?

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1218 on: Jan 20, 2015 at 03:15 PM »
Where do neanderthals and other homos fit in the context of God's creation?

they dont exist... only in the mind and imagination of the evolutionist...

the first human in God's creation was "perfect"... they have a perfect means of commnication (that can be pass on to next generation), a perfect body free from sickness and diseases, a perfect brain that can think and a free will...

There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1219 on: Jan 20, 2015 at 03:53 PM »
they dont exist... only in the mind and imagination of the evolutionist...

the first human in God's creation was "perfect"... they have a perfect means of commnication (that can be pass on to next generation), a perfect body free from sickness and diseases, a perfect brain that can think and a free will...



Correct! ;D

There are no evidence that Neanderthals et. al. exist, since they are not mentioned in the Bible. :D
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1220 on: Jan 20, 2015 at 04:05 PM »
i am thinking of an apelike behaviour neanderthal... na kadalasang pinoportay sa mga movie na kulang sa karunungan...

i believce iyong mga buto na nakuha at tinagurinang neandearthal... they have a fully functional brain, not idiot na kadalsang pinapakita sa mga movies... they have perfect means of communication... but a body prone to sickness, deform, disease and others...

and besides... sa buong duration ng God's creation... dalawang tao lang ang nagexist... no neandearthal...
« Last Edit: Jan 20, 2015 at 04:07 PM by dpogs »
There is none righteous, no not one.

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1221 on: Jan 20, 2015 at 04:30 PM »
 
Simple lang naman ang sinasabi ni sir dpogs, if you're aware of the Neanderthal controversy.  Neanderthals do exist as a classification in biology, but sir dpogs means Neanderthals are human, not a separate species.
 
 
Where do neanderthals and other homos fit in the context of God's creation?

It depends on how you classify Neanderthals.
 
If Neanderthals are not human, then they are included in the creation of "the creatures that move along the ground" on the 6th day.
 
If Neanderthals are human, then they are included in the creation of man, also on the 6th day.
 
Here's the best reconstruction of a Neanderthal (left) and a Homo sapien (right) from London's Natural History Museum:


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/natural-history-museum-exhibition-shows-changing-face-of-britain-over-1million-years-8946583.html
 
If the specimen is alive, it's easy to determine if it's human or not.  But based on fossils, it's harder to know for sure if the specimen is human. 

You can see from the latest reconstruction that it's very hard to tell if the Neanderthal is human or not.  That's why there is a minority of biologists who prefer to call the Neanderthal as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, to show that Neanderthals are Homo sapiens rather than a separate species.
 
Compare the Neanderthal model with this Australian Aboriginal:


 
It's easy to know that the aboriginal is human because he's alive.  Kung naging fossil siya, scientists might mistake him for a non-human species more primitive than a Neanderthal. 

 

Neanderthal child (model)
 
 

Australian Aboriginal child
 

You can see that it's not that easy to tell if the Neanderthal is human or not.
 
Personally, I think the Neanderthal is human.  What you see is a racial difference, not a difference in "kind."
« Last Edit: Jan 20, 2015 at 11:27 PM by barrister »

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1222 on: Jan 24, 2015 at 09:45 AM »
Agree! By all accounts Neanderthals were human.

They have the exact number of bones as modern man, differences in the cranial anatomy, bulkier spine, longer arms were all attributed to variations or adaptions based on lifestyle and environmental effects.
They were known to have similar culture of burying the dead, making tools and musical instruments.
On the mitochondrial DNA studies they found that differences in the sequence are at worst Neanderthal dna could be placed on the fringes of the ranges as seen in modern man....still human.

On sir dpogs point that they "don't exist", this is similar to calling a land animal "Walking Whale" in both cases the nomenclature is given to give an impression of different species(neanderthals and humans) and similar ancestry(pakicetus and whales).....so in that sense sir dpogs is correct....they don't exist!
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2015 at 11:25 AM by docelmo »
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1223 on: Jan 24, 2015 at 12:14 PM »
Science is slowly showing that neo- darwinian evolution cannot account for changes in enzyme levels to produce functional proteins!

This is a peer reviewed study...
"Enzyme Families--Shared Evolutionary History or Shared Design? A Study of the GABA-Aminotransferase Family"
Mariclair A. Reeves, Ann K. Gauger, Douglas D. Axe

Abstract

"The functional diversity of enzyme families is thought to have been caused by repeated recruitment events--gene duplications followed by conversions to new functions. However, mathematical models show this can only work if beneficial new functions are achievable by just one or two base changes in the duplicate genes. Having found no convincing demonstration that this is feasible, we previously chose a highly similar pair of E. coli enzymes from the GABA-aminotransferase-like (GAT) family, 2-amino-3-ketobutyrate CoA ligase (Kbl2) and 8-amino-7-oxononanoate synthase (BioF2), and attempted to convert the first to perform the function of the second by site-directed mutagenesis. In the end we were unable to achieve functional conversion by that rational approach. Here we take a complementary approach based on random mutagenesis. Focusing first on single mutations, we prepared mutated libraries of nine genes from the GAT family and tested for BioF2 function in vivo. None of the singly mutated genes had this function. Focusing next on double mutations, we prepared and tested 70% of the 6.5 million possible mutation pairs for Kbl2 and for BIKB, an enzyme described as having both Kbl2 and BioF2 activities in vitro. Again, no BioF2 activity was detected in vivo. Based on these results, we conclude that conversion to BioF2 function would require at least two changes in the starting gene and probably more, since most double mutations do not work for two promising starting genes. The most favorable recruitment scenario would therefore require three genetic changes after the duplication event: two to achieve low-level BioF2 activity and one to boost that activity by overexpression. But even this best case would require about 10^15 years in a natural population, making it unrealistic. Considering this along with the whole body of evidence on enzyme conversions, we think structural similarities among enzymes with distinct functions are better interpreted as supporting shared design principles than shared evolutionary histories."


Wow! This means it would take 10,000,000,000,000,000 years to produce Just TWO base changes in the enzyme chain by darwinian mechanism! That's longer than earth's age!



« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2015 at 12:17 PM by docelmo »
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1224 on: Feb 02, 2015 at 09:57 AM »
The mere fact that not one person can explain why there is life and order in the universe means every being was born out of creation. Evolution is just the series of events that was triggered by creation.

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1225 on: Feb 02, 2015 at 12:00 PM »
The mere fact that not one person can explain why there is life and order in the universe means every being was born out of creation. Evolution is just the series of events that was triggered by creation.

And your basis? ;D
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1226 on: Feb 02, 2015 at 12:03 PM »
Gumagawa ka ba ng walang pag-iisip?

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1227 on: Feb 02, 2015 at 12:16 PM »
Like painting where the artist conceptualizes the outcome of the painting and executes it with the application of his brush using the the various paint colors available to him, the conceptualization is the creation while the execution is the evolution. Science is merely explaining the process of execution but cannot explain why the artist drew the painting. You can have theories but unless you can communicate directly with the artist, you can never know.

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1228 on: Feb 02, 2015 at 12:53 PM »
The evolutionist does not believe there is a "painter or artist". To put it in your context the evolutionist believe that given enough time the painting will paint or "create" itself.
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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1229 on: Feb 02, 2015 at 02:54 PM »
Gumagawa ka ba ng walang pag-iisip?

Please explain kung pano nabuo at nagkaroon ng pag-iisip...
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."