Author Topic: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion  (Read 165056 times)

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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1140 on: Jan 09, 2015 at 03:16 PM »
The Bible is NOT a science book, but it doesn't mean that things mentioned there are unscientific.
 i suggest leaving our "religious biases" out of the door so to speak and just examine and understand text as it is...

Up until the time of hubble and einstein sceintist taught that the universe static, unchanging, eternal. But when hubble saw that that the universe was expanding and was later on confirmed by einstein himself, this lead to the new understanding that the universe was not static and in fact had a beginning in time.

Genesis 1: Say In the beginning God created the heavens and earth...which to me simply means that Time, Space and the Universe had a beginning in the distant past.....removing the reference to God, does this statement have no basis in science?

yes, when you said "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". that alone is unscientific because earth was not created until about 4.5 billion years ago. the universe is about 13.8 billion years old. when the solar system, and in effect the earth, was created it was not exactly "in the beginning". actually far from it. you just interpreted it to fit the Bible creation.

And I believe The Reproductive system was mentioned repeatedly in the creation account when the Bible mentioned the phrase "according to their kind".

but of course they did. men and women have their own specific body parts and so they have to address it to have their own explanation. doesn't mean it's scientific.

These two are not in genesis but in another chapter but are now part of medical protocol in Infection Control:
The "washing using running water" and the isolation of someone during the duration of a sick person....both of which were mentioned in the bible but were not practiced until the discovery of microorganism.

oh please. so they mentioned it. what they did was based on assumption and is a matter of simple common sense. someone gets sick, people stay away from the person. did they give an explanation as to why? no need. they're just afraid. it's instinct to stay away from someone or something that could harm you. did they mentioned microorganisms or at least a hint in the scriptures? i doubt it. is that what you call scientific?

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1141 on: Jan 09, 2015 at 04:34 PM »
yes, when you said "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". that alone is unscientific because earth was not created until about 4.5 billion years ago. the universe is about 13.8 billion years old. when the solar system, and in effect the earth, was created it was not exactly "in the beginning". actually far from it. you just interpreted it to fit the Bible creation.

but of course they did. men and women have their own specific body parts and so they have to address it to have their own explanation. doesn't mean it's scientific.

oh please. so they mentioned it. what they did was based on assumption and is a matter of simple common sense. someone gets sick, people stay away from the person. did they give an explanation as to why? no need. they're just afraid. it's instinct to stay away from someone or something that could harm you. did they mentioned microorganisms or at least a hint in the scriptures? i doubt it. is that what you call scientific?

Oh, I guess you need some more explaining....."Heaven and Earth" simply means the cosmos or universe! of course the earth was NOT made  in the first day.Is that how you understand that passage? If you bother to read genesis further the passage then says "the earth was without form" what do you understand by this? does this to you na gawa na kagad yung earth in the beginning? Earth was mentioned  because the bible  was written for people on earth. Kung nasa mars tayo ang naka lagay dyan "Heaven and Mars". Earth was WITHOUT FORM, does this mean to you na gawa na earth? without form nga eh...paki basa nalang yung Genesis ulit....the creation was a process and was not instaneous! The only thing instantaneous was I think the "light" on day one. He said let there light, and there was....like turning a switch.....just like the "point" of light-energy.
The point there was the universe had a beginning.....is the bible wrong in its claim of a beginning to the universe?

Next point: Huh? This is what i was referring to, that from the the grass to man...they reproduce AFTER HIS KIND:

Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself,
12    And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind:
20    ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven
21    And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

24    ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25    And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind:

Bible is saying plants and animals reproduce among thier kind, while you believe that bacteria became fish then became mammal, then ampbibians, then reptiles of wait some mammal became fully aquatic mammals, then man...
We have yet to see these in action, but what do we actually see now. we see frog giving birth to frogs, horse giving birth to what else...horse. bacteria reproducing more bacteria, whales giving birth to whales....etc etc etc.


Common sense seriously? If these instructions were a product of "common sense"  as you claim then there would have far fewer incidence of plagues. yeah, they were scared of the sick sure. but the washing using running waterr or isolation has been recognized in the medical field fairly recently. Why the need to mention microorganism? would the people in ancient time understand it, I don't think so.

Did I say the bible is scientific? I said things mentioned in the bible could verified by science since not only does it talk about the spiritual but also talk about the physical world.

« Last Edit: Jan 09, 2015 at 04:44 PM by docelmo »
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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1142 on: Jan 09, 2015 at 04:41 PM »
So these made you SO SURE about everything you say???
As far as the sum of the information and knowledge i've gathered and to the best of my ability i am sure...of course i could wrong. After all Nobody's perfect.
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1143 on: Jan 09, 2015 at 05:06 PM »
Oh, I guess you need some more explaining....."Heaven and Earth" simply means the cosmos or universe! of course the earth was NOT made  in the first day.Is that how you understand that passage? If you bother to read genesis further the passage then says "the earth was without form" what do you understand by this? does this to you na gawa na kagad yung earth in the beginning? Earth was mentioned  because the bible  was written for people on earth. Kung nasa mars tayo ang naka lagay dyan "Heaven and Mars". Earth was WITHOUT FORM, does this mean to you na gawa na earth? without form nga eh...paki basa nalang yung Genesis ulit....the creation was a process and was not instaneous! The only thing instantaneous was I think the "light" on day one. He said let there light, and there was....like turning a switch.....just like the "point" of light-energy.


see? another interpretation of the Bible.

Next point: Huh? This is what i was referring to, that from the the grass to man...they reproduce AFTER HIS KIND:

Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself,
12    And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind:
20    ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven
21    And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

24    ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25    And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind:

Bible is saying plants and animals reproduce among thier kind, while you believe that bacteria became fish then became mammal, then ampbibians, then reptiles of wait some mammal became fully aquatic mammals, then man...
We have yet to see these in action, but what do we actually see now. we see frog giving birth to frogs, horse giving birth to what else...horse. bacteria reproducing more bacteria, whales giving birth to whales....etc etc etc.

you said and i quote, "And I believe The Reproductive system was mentioned repeatedly in the creation account when the Bible mentioned the phrase "according to their kind". What else would i think it is?

I actually do not understand what your real belief is. you say you believe in ID but you defend like a Creationist using terms like "kind".


Common sense seriously? If these instructions were a product of "common sense"  as you claim then there would have far fewer incidence of plagues. yeah, they were scared of the sick sure. but the washing using running waterr or isolation has been recognized in the medical field fairly recently. Why the need to mention microorganism? would the people in ancient time understand it, I don't think so.

for someone who keeps on insisting that the Bible is not scientific, you sure love connecting the passages with science and now i don't get the point of your argument.

Did I say the bible is scientific? I said things mentioned in the bible could verified by science since not only does it talk about the spiritual but also talk about the physical world.


I was replying to majoe with this when he said that the Bible is scientific:

i'm not really sure who or what a Spinoza God is. It's not really my belief but more of a view of what a possible higher being is. I don't really subscribe to any theist/atheist/agnostic literature as i'm just basing my view my on reading and watching things about Quantum Theory, String Theory, Physics Journals, etc.

what part exactly of Genesis do you say is scientific?

maybe you shouldn't have directed your reply to me and instead to majoe since he's the one who says the bible is scientific.

so what is it that are you actually trying to say? because you keep on insisting that the bible isn't scientific yet you keep connecting it with science. ???
« Last Edit: Jan 09, 2015 at 05:07 PM by leomarley »

Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1144 on: Jan 09, 2015 at 05:08 PM »
As far as the sum of the information and knowledge i've gathered and to the best of my ability i am sure...of course i could wrong. After all Nobody's perfect.

so you exactly know how the entire Universe works to conclude that there is a God? why insist on this truth of yours when you're actually saying that you could be wrong?

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1145 on: Jan 09, 2015 at 06:27 PM »
see? another interpretation of the Bible.

you said and i quote, "And I believe The Reproductive system was mentioned repeatedly in the creation account when the Bible mentioned the phrase "according to their kind". What else would i think it is?

I actually do not understand what your real belief is. you say you believe in ID but you defend like a Creationist using terms like "kind".

for someone who keeps on insisting that the Bible is not scientific, you sure love connecting the passages with science and now i don't get the point of your argument.

I was replying to majoe with this when he said that the Bible is scientific:

maybe you shouldn't have directed your reply to me and instead to majoe since he's the one who says the bible is scientific.

so what is it that are you actually trying to say? because you keep on insisting that the bible isn't scientific yet you keep connecting it with science. ???
Huh? How else will you interpret or understand the meaning of the passage; "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void;"
Except that  the universe had a beginning in time, and the earth was not yet formed at the beginning, its formation described as it gradually formed much later....this to me seems consistent with  w/ regards to the differences in the calculated ages of the universe and earth..

It is not just the mention of the reproductive system but the Passage means or connotes  that the reproductive system for each specie is stable and integral. no cross specie reproduction. A horse will give birth to a horse, a frog to a frog, a whale to a whale....

I am an ID/Creationist if want to label me. mentioning terms like "kind" doesn't make the point less valid...

My point was rather clear the bible is not a book on science, but since it describes the physical world as well, then these claims can be either verified, confirmed or refuted by science....
« Last Edit: Jan 09, 2015 at 07:17 PM by docelmo »
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Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1146 on: Jan 09, 2015 at 06:50 PM »
so you exactly know how the entire Universe works to conclude that there is a God? why insist on this truth of yours when you're actually saying that you could be wrong?
Where did i say i exactly know how the entire universe works? My conclusion is based on the findings that the universe was finely tuned that the probability of that occuring by chance is smaller than infinitesimal,also had beginning therefore an outside cause, this cause is outside time and space( i know this difficult to accept). I insist on this truth in the same manner you insist chance or evolution is fact. I admit i could be wrong, Could you admit you could be wrong as well?
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1147 on: Jan 09, 2015 at 08:03 PM »
Where did i say i exactly know how the entire universe works? My conclusion is based on the findings that the universe was finely tuned that the probability of that occuring by chance is smaller than infinitesimal,also had beginning therefore an outside cause, this cause is outside time and space( i know this difficult to accept). I insist on this truth in the same manner you insist chance or evolution is fact. I admit i could be wrong, Could you admit you could be wrong as well?

so where is your evidence that a designer finely tuned the universe to meet these "parameters"? there is none. so how could you conclude that there is a designer? because you interpret numbers as a set of parameters? there isn't even any scientific principle behind ID. there isn't even a scientific hypothesis to support ID. and what do you mean when you say "I insist on this truth in the same manner you insist chance or evolution is fact"? isn't that what you call "faith"? so as I've said earlier, it comes down to faith because it is the backbone of your belief.

Now let me ask you this, how do you suppose different species came about? did they just pop out of existence made possible by this designer? did lions, bears, turtles, monkeys, fish, frogs just pop out of thin air?

Offline majoe

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1148 on: Jan 09, 2015 at 11:39 PM »

I was replying to majoe with this when he said that the Bible is scientific:

......

maybe you shouldn't have directed your reply to me and instead to majoe since he's the one who says the bible is scientific.
 ...


sorry for the misunderstanding but i didn't exactly say that the bible is scientific. if you read again my post, i was merely pointing out that the the creation account in the book of Genesis is scientific i.e the 6 days of creation.


« Last Edit: Jan 09, 2015 at 11:43 PM by majoe »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1149 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 01:36 AM »
E, hindi naman nagrereproduce piyesa ng kotse e. You really can't use that argument.

It does change. If it doesn't, hindi ako maniniwalang apo ng magulang mo ang anak mo kasi zero probability e, using your reasoning.

the earth formed without reproducing... based on your reasoning... as long as there is a chance it will happen... well there is a chance that car parts when jumbled will turn to a fully functional car... the position of every planet in solar system perfectly place ... they're not reproducing... they were there by chance if we follow your thinking...

ang proetien molecules ba sa "bowl of soup" nagrereproduce?


ngayon ko lang nlalaman na dapat nagrereproduce ang protein to produce life out from non-life (essentially the same thing as saying - to produce life out from nothing :) )...
« Last Edit: Jan 10, 2015 at 01:53 AM by dpogs »
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Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1150 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 01:58 AM »
so where is your evidence that a designer finely tuned the universe to meet these "parameters"? there is none. so how could you conclude that there is a designer? because you interpret numbers as a set of parameters? there isn't even any scientific principle behind ID. there isn't even a scientific hypothesis to support ID. and what do you mean when you say "I insist on this truth in the same manner you insist chance or evolution is fact"? isn't that what you call "faith"? so as I've said earlier, it comes down to faith because it is the backbone of your belief.

Now let me ask you this, how do you suppose different species came about? did they just pop out of existence made possible by this designer? did lions, bears, turtles, monkeys, fish, frogs just pop out of thin air?

consider theory of creation is false...


is theory of evolution true? or just speculatioin... or just hypothesis backed by another hypothesis...

you demand a proof of our believe... then shows us how life came from non-living matter... show us scientifically? can member of science (daw )repeat the process of life sprouting from 'bowl of soup'?
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1151 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 02:47 AM »

consider theory of creation is false...


is theory of evolution true? or just speculatioin... or just hypothesis backed by another hypothesis...

you demand a proof of our believe... then shows us how life came from non-living matter... show us scientifically? can member of science (daw )repeat the process of life sprouting from 'bowl of soup'?

I demanded first for docelmo's evidence. Don't redirect my question back to me. I am asking of course for the evidence for Intellectual Design from docelmo since I believe you have a different belief system from him. You are strictly for creationism. His is for ID with basis from the Bible. As sir barrister have said, your basis is strictly from the Bible and based on faith alone so if I ask you it would go nowhere. I won't engage on a discussion with you for yours is a matter of faith but since sir docelmo's claim for his conclusion is scientific I'll ask him.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1152 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 03:12 AM »
I demanded first for docelmo's evidence. Don't redirect my question back to me. I am asking of course for the evidence for Intellectual Design from docelmo since I believe you have a different belief system from him. You are strictly for creationism. His is for ID with basis from the Bible. As sir barrister have said, your basis is strictly from the Bible and based on faith alone so if I ask you it would go nowhere. I won't engage on a discussion with you for yours is a matter of faith but since sir docelmo's claim for his conclusion is scientific I'll ask him.

both ID and creationism ... they can't prove it... we can't prove it... (as well as you cant prove that there is really a point in the beginning) both are by faith... the idea of ID is not scientific... but its more logical than thinking that all these happened by chance...

now you are saying that evolution is a fact... prove that life exist from non-living matter... prove that it is not merely an hypothesis but a law... today age of technology... na kung saan alam na natin ang mga elements necessary to create life... why we can't duplicate the process of life sprout from non-living matter?

you're claiming that evolution is not by faith... prove that it is not by faith... if we use scientific method on finding/research that there is GOd... can we call it scientific?
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1153 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 03:22 AM »
I'd rather wait for sir docelmo's answer to my question.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1154 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 04:30 AM »
while waiting you can show me the proof/articles/experiements on life sprouting from non-living things...
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1155 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 11:01 AM »
Nope. :D

Offline bumblebee

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1156 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 11:20 AM »
the earth formed without reproducing... based on your reasoning... as long as there is a chance it will happen... well there is a chance that car parts when jumbled will turn to a fully functional car... the position of every planet in solar system perfectly place ... they're not reproducing... they were there by chance if we follow your thinking...

ang proetien molecules ba sa "bowl of soup" nagrereproduce?


ngayon ko lang nlalaman na dapat nagrereproduce ang protein to produce life out from non-life (essentially the same thing as saying - to produce life out from nothing :) )...

Hindi ko na maintindihan kung saan mo nakukuha conclusions mo :) And don't compare car parts to stars and planets. I won't explain anymore why, baka kung anu-ano na naman ma-conclude mo.

Offline luis

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1157 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 11:25 AM »
init ng discussion.

juice and sounds muna.   ;)

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1158 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 01:49 PM »
I'd rather wait for sir docelmo's answer to my question.
Hahaha. took me awhile(tinulugan ko muna) to digest and form my reply to your  challenging questions

Let’s talk of evidence of design first on a smaller readily understandable context before going to the question of “evidence of design in the universe”.
There is in fact evidence of design…Let me cite some examples, when we see mathematical equations written on a blackboard, when a see a Ferrari 459, when see an Iphone6, when you dissect a frog, shark, cat and man….
The first 3 examples are types of man-made designs. The equations written in the board automatically is attributed to its author unless you believe that equations wrote themselves or they happen by chance. When It comes to the Ferrari and Iphone6 we immediately appreciate the design, function and aesthetic qualities of these two. All those things, contain information, order, precision….these qualities necessitates the presence of intelligence. They are self-evident and please don’t say that I cannot use this to illustrate my point.
Now the last four examples; Btw I have dissected all of those….all these showed organization and order in their body parts. We see the systems; respiratory, circulatory, musculo-skeletal……these systems all working together to make the animal alive and kicking(well not anymore). If natural selection and random chance are the “only” processes that will govern the development of these systems….then these animals would not even exist! If you don’t have the lungs and heart and arteries and veins to carry blood(just two systems) working in synch you will not have oxygen and in 4 minutes you die! How long do you think mammals evolved from fish? If you believe this event happen by random chance, then How long will the Gills (which gets the dissolved oxygen from water) have to evolve to the lungs which gets oxygen from air? Imagine a transitional animal w/ neither of these two parts…will this animal survive?
 If the frog needed to evolve millions of years  its reproductive system to suit its environment there would be no frog. If the shark needed to evolve…oh wait sharks hardly “evolve” for 450 million years…
Let’s go to the big picture….just like the writing on the school blackboard…..the numbers themselves is the “writing” on the universal blackboard!

The quantities and constants were “discovered” by scientists studying astronomy and other associated disciplines they are real and not a product of some wild imagination by some ID/creationist to “fit” his belief. The fact these numbers and degree of precision even exist is a strong indication of design rather than chance. So the “evidence” is the presence of these numbers themselves that these couldn’t have come by chance.

When man launches  rockets, satellites to rendezvous w/ the moon, comets….this requires thousands of hours of mathematical calculations to design and build the satellite and have it land on the moon or comet! The calculations are based on the calculated movement of the moon and comets! And you want us to believe a satellite definitely requires precise numbers, while the universe happens to have these numbers by chance…….in both cases the best explanation is design….and design needs a designer!
I am not arguing here based on faith (presence of God) because we have no observable tools for that, what I am invoking is the presence of Intelligence. Precision and order are products of a mind/intelligence….not some random chance. Unless you believe otherwise

ID is essentially a theory of design detection and propose that Intelligence as a mechanism causing biological change. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.
 
From Steve Renner: ID is based upon the Scientific Method and not blind faith
The four-step approach to the scientific method can be applied to ID
Observation: Intelligent agents produce complex and specified information (CSI).
Hypothesis: If a natural object is designed, then it will contain high levels of CSI
Experiments: Testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity by reverse engineering structures through genetic knockout experiments to determine if they require all their parts to function,
Conclusion: if CSI is found then it’s designed.

In a broadest sense ID is the science of Design Detection.

Next point…
The emergence of life by Darwinian process of naturalistic chemical or biological evolution fails to adequately explain the origin of genetic information found in the DNA necessary to build living cell and animal plans. ID in my opinion best explains the presence of information encoded in the DNA, evolution simply cannot account for the presence of this information.

The Cambrian explosion where many of the animal phyla emerged like “blink of an eye” in geological time is also explosion of new information. This time period on earth’s history runs counter the “gradual slight modifications of animals” predicted by the Darwinian processes of random chance and natural selection producing millions upon millions of transitional animals in between the well-established animal phyla.

ID does not dispute for lack of a better word “evolution” defined as “change through time” or even common ancestry what is disputed is the Darwinian naturalistic, undirected random chance to produce all the complexities of life.

Therefore no animal will pop out thin as you so keenly observed…..no transitional animals(as seen in fossils), animals comes out fully-formed(as seen in fossils again), only the infusion of enormous amount of information in the DNA can account for this and is most plausible explanation of emergence of new body plans!
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1159 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 03:59 PM »
that is very insightful and indeed a very long explanation doc hehe. i see now where you're coming from, unfortunately, those are not evidence of an intelligent designer. you're basically assuming that someone put the parameters there. where is the actual evidence to conclude that those numbers and data came from a designer? but most importantly, do you consider it as a Scientific Theory?
« Last Edit: Jan 10, 2015 at 04:00 PM by leomarley »

Offline tony

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1160 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 04:50 PM »
evolution is easy to document.....
but creation? how can you comment on something
that was supposed to have happened when you were
not even there when it did if at all.....?

but the human mind is so creative, that we are able to create a lot of things...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1161 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 11:00 PM »
that is very insightful and indeed a very long explanation doc hehe. i see now where you're coming from, unfortunately, those are not evidence of an intelligent designer. you're basically assuming that someone put the parameters there. where is the actual evidence to conclude that those numbers and data came from a designer? but most importantly, do you consider it as a Scientific Theory?
So, what to you constitute evidence of intelligent design or designer? And Just because to you there is no evidence of designer are we then to conclude the designer does not exist? First of all do you agree that these numbers exist? How do you then account for the presence of these contants?
Lets apply the scientific method
Observation: the contants and quantities exist in the universe
Hypothesis: the numbers are finely tuned for life
Experiments: using a model make changes to these contants and simulate
Conclusion: if changing the numbers does not produce life then the universe is finely tuned!
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Offline leomarley

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1162 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 11:23 PM »
you could be right with that but since your premise is that those number exist because of a designer, your scientific method should be:

Observation: the constants and quantities exist in the universe
Hypothesis: these numbers and data exist because of a designer
Experiments: none
Conclusion: cannot conclude because no experiments can be done

now how do you conduct an experiment with that? and in turn, how do you make a conclusion that there is a designer?

as long as there are no evidences to support your claim that the numbers equate to a designer you cannot conclude that they are caused by a designer.

Criteria for a Scientific Theory from wikipedia:

Quote
Essential criteria

The defining characteristic of all scientific knowledge, including theories, is the ability to make falsifiable or testable predictions. The relevance and specificity of those predictions determine how potentially useful the theory is. A would-be theory that makes no observable predictions is not a scientific theory at all. Predictions not sufficiently specific to be tested are similarly not useful. In both cases, the term "theory" is not applicable.

A body of descriptions of knowledge is usually only called a theory if it fulfills the following criteria:

- It makes falsifiable predictions with consistent accuracy across a broad area of scientific inquiry (such as mechanics).
- It is well-supported by many independent strands of evidence, rather than a single foundation. This ensures that it is probably a good approximation, if not completely correct.
- It is consistent with pre-existing experimental results and at least as accurate in its predictions as are any pre-existing theories.
- It can be subjected to minor adaptations to account for new data that do not fit it perfectly, as they are discovered, thus increasing its predictive capability over time.
- It is among the most parsimonious explanations, economical in the use of proposed entities or explanatory steps. (See Occam's razor. Since there is no generally accepted objective definition of parsimony, this is not a strict criterion, but some theories are much less economical than others.)

The first three criteria are the most important. Theories considered scientific meet at least most of the criteria, but ideally all of them. This is true of such established theories as special and general relativity, quantum mechanics, plate tectonics, the modern evolutionary synthesis, etc.

now take note of the last paragraph. ID cannot meet most, if not all, of the criteria for a Scientific Theory, therefore ID is just an assumption.

For now I'm not inclined to say that there is a higher being that designed the Universe but as long as there is no proper evidence for it, there is none. My view can be changed though if there ever comes a time that there is proof and a proper Theory behind ID.

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1163 on: Jan 10, 2015 at 11:29 PM »
evolution is easy to document.....
but creation? how can you comment on something
that was supposed to have happened when you were
not even there when it did if at all.....?

but the human mind is so creative, that we are able to create a lot of things...
Both ID and evolution are describing an event in the distant past and therefore not observable. But everybody is commenting about it. We do this all the time talk of things in past and i don't any reason why we can't....
If evolution is easy to document kindly share just one well document evidence for evolution.

Can man's creativity create something as grand as the earth, universe? Man's greatest creation pale in comparison to the world we living in and immensity of the universe. Where do you suppose man's creative power came from.....ever heard of this  "Lets make man into our own image and likeness".....that's where!

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Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1164 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 02:10 AM »
living matter sprouts from non-living matter... its magic time... :):):)
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline ldrtrading

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1165 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 04:05 AM »
If evolution is true, my 1 question is san galing ang tao? If so your answer...dapat wala ng ganun species ngayon dahil nag evolve ng lahat...

Offline dpogs

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1166 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 07:13 AM »
ni hindi na nga makita ang fossils... :)
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline tony

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1167 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 07:49 AM »
Both ID and evolution are describing an event in the distant past and therefore not observable. But everybody is commenting about it. We do this all the time talk of things in past and i don't any reason why we can't....
If evolution is easy to document kindly share just one well document evidence for evolution.

Can man's creativity create something as grand as the earth, universe? Man's greatest creation pale in comparison to the world we living in and immensity of the universe. Where do you suppose man's creative power came from.....ever heard of this  "Lets make man into our own image and likeness".....that's where!



what i meant by man's creativity is that we "create stories" about a lot of things.....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline sardaukar

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1168 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 07:52 AM »
So, what to you constitute evidence of intelligent design or designer? And Just because to you there is no evidence of designer are we then to conclude the designer does not exist? First of all do you agree that these numbers exist? How do you then account for the presence of these contants?


Here's my problem with using highly improbably events as proof. Highly improbable events happen all the time.

What are the odds 50 years ago that you would have come into existence? How many chance decisions by your parents needed to have happened for them to meet? If they met in school, who chose that school? Who chose their sections? Were there other possible suitors? Was there an event that made them fall in love? Perhaps a dance or a concert? What if the organizer decided not to push through with the event? What if a sudden accident on the road prevented them from making it? And on and on. Highly improbable right? Now extend that to 2 more pairs of couples--your grand parents. How improbable would your existence have been 80 years ago? How about 10 generations back? How about 100? How about 1000 generations ago? All those ancestors who by some quirk of chance would just as easily not have existed and therefore you wouldn't either. We would be approaching astronomically improbable numbers already, I would think.

Now are we to surmise that the very fact of your existence proves that someone guided all those people so that eventually, after 30,000 years you would come to exist? Or do you exist purely by chance?
« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2015 at 07:55 AM by sardaukar »

Offline docelmo

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Re: Creation or Evolution - articles and discussion
« Reply #1169 on: Jan 11, 2015 at 07:57 AM »
you could be right with that but since your premise is that those number exist because of a designer, your scientific method should be:

Observation: the constants and quantities exist in the universe
Hypothesis: these numbers and data exist because of a designer
Experiments: none
Conclusion: cannot conclude because no experiments can be done

now how do you conduct an experiment with that? and in turn, how do you make a conclusion that there is a designer?

as long as there are no evidences to support your claim that the numbers equate to a designer you cannot conclude that they are caused by a designer.

Criteria for a Scientific Theory from wikipedia:

now take note of the last paragraph. ID cannot meet most, if not all, of the criteria for a Scientific Theory, therefore ID is just an assumption.

For now I'm not inclined to say that there is a higher being that designed the Universe but as long as there is no proper evidence for it, there is none. My view can be changed though if there ever comes a time that there is proof and a proper Theory behind ID.
Since the Designer or God as we have been describing is outside time and space, spiritual and eternal, then no scientific tool is adequate to detect His presence....you need something more. something beyond the confines of the material world. We can only infer that the physical world is governed by something beyond it.

Based on our common experience of man-made works, we see and discern that our "creations" are based on our intelligence or mind and those creations couldn't just happen, in the same manner we have discovered DNA which information or code to make Life, and the universe contain constants and quantities so precise that it defies imagination. Then the only conclusion we make is that Life and the Universe has a Cause outside and beyond the confines of the physical world.
Thus it is Fine-Tuning that we could test using the scientific method.
Since you've mentioned criteria for scientific theory, let apply this to evolution
-What falsifiable predictions has evolution made?
- What well-supported  independent strands of evidence has evolution produce?
- Name one that evolution has that is consistent with pre-existing experimental results and at least as accurate in its predictions as are any pre-existing theories.
- Name some of these "minor adaptations" to account for new data.

While at it, kindly reply to my question on how you can account for the gradual chances of body plans from say Gills to Lungs for an animal to survive in the Darwinian model of gradual, undirected random change...
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