Author Topic: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching  (Read 7987 times)

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Offline monreq

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #30 on: Dec 03, 2011 at 06:47 PM »
@22TS.  Bro can you please explain in details that proper matching with the speakers is very important.  There some people who do not understand it.

Example:  Your John Blue 3 Speakers:
Specifications:

    Wiring: All internal wiring are done with pure, solid copper.
    Driver: 3 inch full range driver with special resin cast waveguide, anti-fungus treated paper cone; pioneered and developed by JohnBlue.
    Efficiency: 87dB / W / m
    Impedance: 6 Ohm
    Max power: 30W
    Dimensions: H x W x D: 208 x 129 x 188mm
    Weight: 5.5kg / pair

Now, isn't it right that you have quality tube amps that drives this speakers and that it rattles the JB3 coz, it's not properly matched?  Can you please tell us the details of your tube amp such as wattage and type(ex. EL 84 etc)?

You are one of the few who can justify that proper matching with speakers matters.  Lots of people do not believe in that.  I hope you can help me educate some who do not believe in that process..."proper matching matters."

Kaya marami di maganda tumunog ang speakers kasi kulang sa power....  Tenga lang naman at konting commonsense ang kailangan.  Malalaman naman kung match ba speakers sa amp.  Katulad mo, natuto ka sa experience.  Kaya ngayon alam mo na di ba bro.  Natatawa lang kasi ako sa iba na, ang tagal na sa audio di pa din naniniwala sa proper matching ng speakers and amp.  Nakakaawa. :(

Ako natutunan ko yan mula sa experience at pakikinig ng tama. ;)
« Last Edit: Dec 03, 2011 at 06:48 PM by monreq »
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Offline Schrodinger's cat

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #31 on: Dec 03, 2011 at 09:10 PM »
Sirs, how does the tube amp 'rattle' the jb3, what does that mean? Is that the fault of the speaker construction? And why does it do that, but when connected to the 100w ss amp it doesn't, is it because of the extra power? Naku sir nakakahiya, pasensya na, part of the ignorant group yata ako ah

Offline monreq

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #32 on: Dec 03, 2011 at 10:45 PM »
Sirs, how does the tube amp 'rattle' the jb3, what does that mean? Is that the fault of the speaker construction? And why does it do that, but when connected to the 100w ss amp it doesn't, is it because of the extra power? Naku sir nakakahiya, pasensya na, part of the ignorant group yata ako ah
Kulang sa power kaya yung excursion ng speaker cone masyado magalaw o hindi normal ang galaw.  Dapat kasi pag nag vibrate iyong speaker cone di masyado magalaw kahit mag pump ka pa ng volume.  Kapag masyado magalaw at parang luluwa na iyong speaker cone, kulang sa power.  Unang sisirain niya iyong tweeter kapag hindi fullrange ang gamit mo.

Usually, you can hear the sound that the amp can't give the speaker its best performance if the hi and mid is louder than the low freq.  Dapat di naiiwan iyong low freq.  Iyong JB3 kasi kahit 30w 6 ohms, ang baba ng sensitivity.  Kaya pag di properly matched, akala natin manipis tumunog iyong speaker or mahina ang bass.  Malalaman lang natin yan kung speaker ang may fault, kung tama ang power ng amp na gagamitin natin.  Sa professional audio set up, bawal ang mahina ang power amp.  Kasi madaling mag clip iyong power amp kapag nag live band na (distortion from guitars, drums and other instruments).  Dapat naka 9 - 10 o'clock volume setting ka lang sa power amp.  Tapos sa mixer ka na mag adjust.

Minsan akala natin panget iyong speakers kahit sa review maganda.  Baka naman sa amp pa lang may problema na...hindi na matched ang power niya.  Kaya yung Fisher Integrated SS 100w napakanta ng maayos iyong JB3, kasi swak at di hirap ang amp to drive the JB3 on its best performance.  Kahit 9' oclock vol.setting lang, kakanta na ng malupit iyong speakers.  Likewise Vandersteen for example, Dynaudio, B&W Nautilus, needs proper amp to make them sing.  Unless, love song at vocals lang papakinggan mo ok lang kahit 50watts amp power.  Pero mahihirapan kang pakantahin sila sa Rock and Roll, kasi di kayang ibigay ng amp iyong hinihinging power ng woofer.  Of course, you must also have a good quality amplifier. 

Ang Class A SS na amp which is usually 25w, ideal yan sa hi sensitivity speakers such as 94db up, to enjoy the SQ of Class A on your speakers.  Pag masyado mababa sensitivity tapos ang taas pa ng wattage ng speakers, lalong iinit iyong amp at baka umusok.  Sa Class A setting mas mainit ang amp at iinit pa kapag di niya ka matched iyong speakers.:)

I can't speak technically for I am not a physicist or an electronic engineer. But I trust my ears and I learn from experience.  However, we don't have to be a physicist or an engineer to set up our audio properly.  We only need to know how deep we are in music. Because, some people can be easily contented, as long as they hear sound from their set up.  But others like me, will not be contented, as long as I do not hear it right.  As much as possible, I want to be closer from the original recording itself.  Just like listening from a good quality headphone.  You can hear properly balance frequencies from hi to low and just like listening from a live performance.

That's my preference(s), and I will understand, if others do not care about these things.  To each his own, to avoid further arguments or debates.  But for those who wants to seek advice from me, I will share the things that I think best for me.  I won't share things that will not make you satisfy. :)

Sorry bro, kung talambuhay na post ko. I just want to make things clear for everybody.

Thanks for asking. ;)
"LEARNING is a NEVER ENDING process.  Only a FOOL will say he already knows everything."

Offline monreq

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #33 on: Dec 03, 2011 at 11:28 PM »
One more thing, not all speakers are alike.  Alnico fullrange has different sound characteristics from Ferrite and Neodymium fullrange.  So, we cannot generalize that all fullrange speakers sounds the same.  To be safe, and to let your speakers perform its best, you must have a properly matched amp. 

Example:  Dayton DTA 1 (9w @ 8 ohms) and Audio Nirvana Super 8-Ferrite (30W RMS @ 8ohms 94db).  Sounds good already but it can't play loud music properly such as  rock n roll, RnB, House Music.  So, if you want to save some money and you want to have a set up that can play all kinds of music, you have to be logical and get a 30 watter or 50 watter amp to make Audio Nirvana Super 8 sing at its best.  But if you only listen to soft music, jazz, vocals, acoustic, acoustic blues... Dayton DTA 1 and AN Super 8 are good combination.

If you want to preserve analog sounding, do not use equalizers and other processors.  External DAC is acceptable, and good interconnects are enough.  You won't hear any lack of bass or annoying high, if your amp has a good quality and properly matched power with your speakers.

For speaker - amp matching...example RMS is 75 watts with sensitivity 84db - 94db--- Amp power RMS rating must be 50-75 watts to avoid clipping and busted voice coil and have your speakers perform its best.

If RMS is 75 watts with sensitivity 95db - 100db  --- 2-3 watter tube amp is enough to play vocals, acoustics but not rock and roll and house music or RnB.  If you want to play all kinds of music genre, use a 25 watter Class A amp SS or 30 watter to 50 watter SS/Tripath amp are enough to play it loud and clear.

If you have properly matched amp and speakers and it sounded good or best, what more if you acoustically treated your room, which is also a component to improve SQ of your system?

Note:  Your amp volume max.must not go beyond 1 o'clock when you play loud.  If you go beyond 1 o'clock, it means your amp is having a hard time.  It is not compatible with your speaker power and sensitivity.

You take my advice, if you think it will help you.  You ignore this, if this is not your preference and principle. :)

Thanks for reading. ;)
"LEARNING is a NEVER ENDING process.  Only a FOOL will say he already knows everything."

Offline 22TS

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #34 on: Dec 04, 2011 at 12:49 PM »
wow, andaming thread activity.  sorry for my brief absence, i took a couple of days gallivanting...

ON THE JOHNBLUE JB3:
-as sir monreq has supplied, the jb3 is a 5-30watt 6ohm fullrange driver with 87db rated.
-it was initially matched with an 18watt 6L6WGC Push-Pull tube amplifier.
-at low to average listening levels, playing mostly instrument and vocals, the matched-up pair stated above was singing quite well, it's just that i noticed that on certain combinations of low freq sounds and high pitched vocals there was a "garggling" sound...

troubleshooting: was it the speaker?
-was the speaker platform to blame? i changed the speaker platform, i tested them placed on other surfaces, i even bought thick heavy tiles, glued them together and 'suspended' the heavy tiles on a combination of rubber and foam panels just so i could have a sort of 'isolated floating plinth'...
-the same garggling re-occured...
-i stared at the driver literally, while playing several songs, i noticed that on those combination of frequencies being played, the whizzer cone wanted to give off some high frequencies but the rest of the driver wasn't moving in-sync, hence the "garggling" -- it is very much in line with sir monreq's explanation of the phenomenon, the under-powering of the amp would not allow for the full excursion of the driver for the lower frequencies, while the upper frequencies were still being supplied with adequate power...
-this was made more obvious by the fact that it occurred on a fullrange driver, which had to emanate both the unsustained low and the adequately-sustained mids and highs...
-also, the presence of the whizzer cone, having to vibrate along with the main cone which was underpowered, provided that garggling resonnating sound.

troubleshooting: was it the amp?
-again the jb3 is rated 30watts max at 6ohms...
-i auditioned a fisher amp with analog meters which showed how many watts it was giving off to the speakers.
-generally, the jb3 sounded fuller across several genres of music, and was satisfying even for admitted bassheads...
-i noticed that i could play the jb3 loud while sustaining an average of about 15 to 20 watts on the meter and the jb3 tolerated bursts of up to 40something watts without clipping (i guess this is due to the fact that the meter ratings were for 8ohm loads, while the jb3 was rated as a 6ohm load)
-clipping, and running-over the jb3 started at about 50 watts on the meter, so i set the 40 watt mark as the threshold.

-generally, it is much better to have the power on tap in order for the JB3 to perform optimally.  and so having the 100 watt @ 8ohms amp was better for my 5-30watt 6ohm speaker, provided of course that i mind my volume settings (which, may i add, the maximum settings for volume vary along with the source type: a little higher for phono/TT, lower for higher voltage CDPs, etc)


Zero-SS | All-FR

300B SET | 6L6 PP
FE207E | JB3 | HD598

Offline 22TS

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #35 on: Dec 04, 2011 at 12:55 PM »
the above JB3 story is a classic "SPEAKER BEFORE THE AMP" by the way.

my next story is an "AMP BEFORE THE SPEAKER" kind.
Zero-SS | All-FR

300B SET | 6L6 PP
FE207E | JB3 | HD598

Offline 22TS

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #36 on: Dec 04, 2011 at 01:34 PM »
THE AMX 300B SET AND THE FOSTEX FE207E

when i got back into the audio hobby recently, i had a fixation on the 300B tube and single-ended triodes.

i had to have a 300B tube amp running on an SET circuit.

that was the goal and so, searching for amps locally and on the internet, i finally set my sights on the AMX 300B SET amp.  it has clean-power circuitry like the Cayins (try doing an A-B comparison with the Cayin MT-12 12watter and the Yaqin MC-10L 52watter and you'll know what i mean), the price Andrew Sevilla let go of it for beat the Cayins (i almost went for the AT-50T, same price but is a push-pull running on EL34s).

and so it was, i had my clean-power 300B SET giving off 10 WATTS! ok anong speakers ang pwede dito?
i had no prepared budget for speakers and, searching for high-efficiency speakers on the internet (and on pdvd) could be quite discouraging.  discouraging because of the prices actually. 

GOING WITH WHAT YOU HAVE:
-i tried the JB3 on the 300B and, well it sounded great at low listening levels but as stated earlier, the "garggling" would start when it got a bit louder.
-i matched it with my Kenwood LS-P9200, but of course, it could only go up to a certain level, and being a 7-driver system with crossover, it was not the FR SQ i was looking for.  don't get me wrong on this one, the Kenwood is great for partying, DJing at home, concerts, etc., but i had different musical genres in mind for the 300B.
-Kenwood LS-P9200 specs: around 92-94db efficient (based on internet research), very low to 400 watts max, 10" sub, 5.5" mid, 3x 1" dome tweeters and 2x ribbon tweeters.  these are very easy to drive, they can be run by the Dared MP5.

TSAMBA:
-i chanced upon a pair of fostex fe207e in pdvd, 97db and the clincher was that it already came in a 1.6 meter high double bass horn cabinet.  the post lasted about 30 minutes before i closed the deal, hehe.

PROBLEMS:
-the 300B and Fostex, being such an efficient pair, well... the volume knob starts zero at 45 degrees from the south, that's the 7:30 position.  on quiet nights, which is every night where i now live, 8:00 position is already moderate listening level, 8:30 is average listening level and can be heard thoughout half the house (old house with mostly wood), 9:00 is already rocking out by one's self, and to date i have not really breached 10:00 o'clock.
-something i learned about the fostex, it does not like being played softly.

lately, the problem got a little worse when i installed a DIY speaker cable... i got (freebie) 6-strand solid copper totalling 10awg wire, banana terminated, made into a 7 meter pair.  there was a considerable improvement over the 16awg hardware-bought wire that was previously installed.  i could not get branded wires for this even if they were affordable since my wires have to span at least 6 meters.

all in all, these are quite good problems to have.
Zero-SS | All-FR

300B SET | 6L6 PP
FE207E | JB3 | HD598

Offline monreq

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #37 on: Dec 04, 2011 at 10:36 PM »
wow, andaming thread activity.  sorry for my brief absence, i took a couple of days gallivanting...

ON THE JOHNBLUE JB3:
-as sir monreq has supplied, the jb3 is a 5-30watt 6ohm fullrange driver with 87db rated.
-it was initially matched with an 18watt 6L6WGC Push-Pull tube amplifier.
-at low to average listening levels, playing mostly instrument and vocals, the matched-up pair stated above was singing quite well, it's just that i noticed that on certain combinations of low freq sounds and high pitched vocals there was a "garggling" sound...

troubleshooting: was it the speaker?
-was the speaker platform to blame? i changed the speaker platform, i tested them placed on other surfaces, i even bought thick heavy tiles, glued them together and 'suspended' the heavy tiles on a combination of rubber and foam panels just so i could have a sort of 'isolated floating plinth'...
-the same garggling re-occured...
-i stared at the driver literally, while playing several songs, i noticed that on those combination of frequencies being played, the whizzer cone wanted to give off some high frequencies but the rest of the driver wasn't moving in-sync, hence the "garggling" -- it is very much in line with sir monreq's explanation of the phenomenon, the under-powering of the amp would not allow for the full excursion of the driver for the lower frequencies, while the upper frequencies were still being supplied with adequate power...
-this was made more obvious by the fact that it occurred on a fullrange driver, which had to emanate both the unsustained low and the adequately-sustained mids and highs...
-also, the presence of the whizzer cone, having to vibrate along with the main cone which was underpowered, provided that garggling resonnating sound.

troubleshooting: was it the amp?
-again the jb3 is rated 30watts max at 6ohms...
-i auditioned a fisher amp with analog meters which showed how many watts it was giving off to the speakers.
-generally, the jb3 sounded fuller across several genres of music, and was satisfying even for admitted bassheads...
-i noticed that i could play the jb3 loud while sustaining an average of about 15 to 20 watts on the meter and the jb3 tolerated bursts of up to 40something watts without clipping (i guess this is due to the fact that the meter ratings were for 8ohm loads, while the jb3 was rated as a 6ohm load)
-clipping, and running-over the jb3 started at about 50 watts on the meter, so i set the 40 watt mark as the threshold.

-generally, it is much better to have the power on tap in order for the JB3 to perform optimally.  and so having the 100 watt @ 8ohms amp was better for my 5-30watt 6ohm speaker, provided of course that i mind my volume settings (which, may i add, the maximum settings for volume vary along with the source type: a little higher for phono/TT, lower for higher voltage CDPs, etc)



Well said bro.  Many people will learn from your experience. :)
"LEARNING is a NEVER ENDING process.  Only a FOOL will say he already knows everything."

Offline monreq

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #38 on: Dec 04, 2011 at 10:42 PM »
THE AMX 300B SET AND THE FOSTEX FE207E

when i got back into the audio hobby recently, i had a fixation on the 300B tube and single-ended triodes.

i had to have a 300B tube amp running on an SET circuit.

that was the goal and so, searching for amps locally and on the internet, i finally set my sights on the AMX 300B SET amp.  it has clean-power circuitry like the Cayins (try doing an A-B comparison with the Cayin MT-12 12watter and the Yaqin MC-10L 52watter and you'll know what i mean), the price Andrew Sevilla let go of it for beat the Cayins (i almost went for the AT-50T, same price but is a push-pull running on EL34s).

and so it was, i had my clean-power 300B SET giving off 10 WATTS! ok anong speakers ang pwede dito?
i had no prepared budget for speakers and, searching for high-efficiency speakers on the internet (and on pdvd) could be quite discouraging.  discouraging because of the prices actually.  

GOING WITH WHAT YOU HAVE:
-i tried the JB3 on the 300B and, well it sounded great at low listening levels but as stated earlier, the "garggling" would start when it got a bit louder.
-i matched it with my Kenwood LS-P9200, but of course, it could only go up to a certain level, and being a 7-driver system with crossover, it was not the FR SQ i was looking for.  don't get me wrong on this one, the Kenwood is great for partying, DJing at home, concerts, etc., but i had different musical genres in mind for the 300B.
-Kenwood LS-P9200 specs: around 92-94db efficient (based on internet research), very low to 400 watts max, 10" sub, 5.5" mid, 3x 1" dome tweeters and 2x ribbon tweeters.  these are very easy to drive, they can be run by the Dared MP5.

TSAMBA:
-i chanced upon a pair of fostex fe207e in pdvd, 97db and the clincher was that it already came in a 1.6 meter high double bass horn cabinet.  the post lasted about 30 minutes before i closed the deal, hehe.

PROBLEMS:
-the 300B and Fostex, being such an efficient pair, well... the volume knob starts zero at 45 degrees from the south, that's the 7:30 position.  on quiet nights, which is every night where i now live, 8:00 position is already moderate listening level, 8:30 is average listening level and can be heard thoughout half the house (old house with mostly wood), 9:00 is already rocking out by one's self, and to date i have not really breached 10:00 o'clock.
-something i learned about the fostex, it does not like being played softly.

lately, the problem got a little worse when i installed a DIY speaker cable... i got (freebie) 6-strand solid copper totalling 10awg wire, banana terminated, made into a 7 meter pair.  there was a considerable improvement over the 16awg hardware-bought wire that was previously installed.  i could not get branded wires for this even if they were affordable since my wires have to span at least 6 meters.

all in all, these are quite good problems to have.

I envy you bro. You have a nice set up and you know how to match you speakers with amp to have a good SQ.  Hope to visit you one of these days.  You really learn from your experiences properly.   :)

P.S.  Si Anthony may Alnico na parating na custom made niya.  Gusto ko marinig.  Pag ok, masarap din isama sa collection natin.  Kaya wag kang benta ng benta para ma enjoy mo lalo ang mga gears mo.  Ang ibenta mo lang iyong talgang sobra mo o wala ng pag gagamitan. ;)
« Last Edit: Dec 04, 2011 at 10:46 PM by monreq »
"LEARNING is a NEVER ENDING process.  Only a FOOL will say he already knows everything."

Offline Freddie kruger

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #39 on: Dec 12, 2011 at 07:56 AM »
Hi guys,
      Im just new to FR, nacurios lang ako sa mga post nyo, sabi ko sa sarili ko gaano kay kaganda ang sound ng FR, since wala naman akong kakilala na malapit dito sa amin na may FR, e my spkr box ako dito, sa sobrang curious lang, napabili ako kay anthony ng 1 pair na siza 8" FR, nung magdemo si master ng naka box na napa WOW!! ako. sabi ko sa sarili ko this is the kind of sound i really want, NATURAL NA NATURAL parang my reverb (he paired pala w/ his Tube) what more kung alnicos pa.

Offline sound garden

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #40 on: Dec 12, 2011 at 12:13 PM »
Let US enjoy our Full Range speaker either Ferrite, neodynium or Alnico. Right now im enjoying listening to DVD concert of Joe Bonamanza and the Crossroads by Eric Clapton. Again, for those about to rock with Full                    range speaker, WE SALUTE YOU... ;D
Clarity, detail, accuracy, and realism are unmatched....

Offline monreq

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #41 on: Dec 12, 2011 at 01:06 PM »
Let US enjoy our Full Range speaker either Ferrite, neodynium or Alnico. Right now im enjoying listening to DVD concert of Joe Bonamanza and the Crossroads by Eric Clapton. Again, for those about to rock with Full                    range speaker, WE SALUTE YOU... ;D
++ ;D  Agree.
"LEARNING is a NEVER ENDING process.  Only a FOOL will say he already knows everything."

Offline chiryu18

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #42 on: Dec 13, 2011 at 08:54 PM »
Quote
TSAMBA:
-i chanced upon a pair of fostex fe207e in pdvd, 97db and the clincher was that it already came in a 1.6 meter high double bass horn cabinet.  the post lasted about 30 minutes before i closed the deal, hehe.

@22ts

ako nag txt sa seller kaya post niya ulit dito pdvd yung fostex, pero ayaw niya ibigay sa last price na post niya noon, kaya nung nakita mo yung post ko kay aaudio na baffle design sa kanya yun galing, ;D
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Offline chiryu18

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Re: WIDEBANDERS: discussions | reviews | matching
« Reply #43 on: Dec 13, 2011 at 09:47 PM »
@all

is alnico driver really sounds different than ferrite and neodynium drivers, which would sound better?  Fr alnico driver or let say daitone 3way speaker with alnico driver.

I have an uncle who told me that speaker manufacturer switch from alnico to ferrite because there was scars supply with the raw materials used to produce alnico, so speaker manufacturers looked for replacement and that was ferrite , he said that alnico and ferrite produces the same sound quality. Vintage  speakers sounds better because speakers tend to sound better the longer you use it, and the reason why  vintage speakers looses its sound quality when repaired. He also added that alnico susceptible to demagnetization unlike ferrite.
""Simplicity is the Ultimate form of Sophistication""
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