Author Topic: 4k next big thing?  (Read 24917 times)

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Offline Stagea

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #60 on: Jan 15, 2013 at 01:12 PM »
No point going to 4k until 4k sources are actually available.

meron nga pakulo yung Sony na 4k remastered yung blu ray movies. Siyempre yung mga di marunong, mauuto. aakalain na 4k talaga bibilhin nila yun pala 4k source converted to 1080. LULZ.

I can only imagine how big the file size would be for actual 4k sources. Not practical pa unless they create a blu ray or other medium in which they can fit those 4k materials in.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/7/3848924/sony-launching-4k-video-distribution-service

I guess it's for people who are willing to wait on huge downloads. :P

Offline the_w0rks

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #61 on: Jan 15, 2013 at 01:34 PM »
http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/7/3848924/sony-launching-4k-video-distribution-service

I guess it's for people who are willing to wait on huge downloads. :P

good luck with that. Siyempre, impossible sa Pinas 'to. the movie has to be 4x the file size of 1080p blu ray rips. so that's at least 100GB for one movie. And if it's smaller than that, you can be sure na grabe yung compression and you won't even get the full potential of a 4k source...which defeats the purpose of adapting early for 4k.

Hayaan na lang natin ang Sony to try really hard to shove 4k into consumers' throats. Ni wala pang kalahati sa buong mundo ang nakapag adapt sa FullHD e, so pano nila iexpect mag-aadapt tao sa 4k. pft

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #62 on: Jan 15, 2013 at 01:38 PM »
Cant wait to download a real 4K content for the sake of science.   ;D

May kasalanan neto ay mga local telcos for not properly upgrading the wired infrastructure, because the projected numbers are still manageable in countries with fast ISP.   ;D
« Last Edit: Jan 15, 2013 at 01:39 PM by Clondalkin »

Offline DTNS

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #63 on: Jan 15, 2013 at 05:38 PM »
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=10214 wow! ang dami nang 4K content!  ;D
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Offline the_w0rks

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Re: Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #64 on: Jan 15, 2013 at 09:56 PM »
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=10214 wow! ang dami nang 4K content!  ;D
Haha ganitong consumer sinasabi ko na nacoconfuse dahil may label 4k mastered. Loool

Sadly 4k master na converted to 1080p lang yan to fit sa regular 50gb bku ray disc. Dont be fooled. walang actual na 4k source blu ray as of now.

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #65 on: Jan 16, 2013 at 03:25 AM »
Cant wait to download a real 4K content for the sake of science.   ;D

There has always been 4k content on youtube for a while now. :)

For regular, non-"demo" content, my suggestion is to wait until HEVC gets standardized.  With the huge push for 4k displays in CES, this may come sooner rather than later.

Offline the_w0rks

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #66 on: Jan 16, 2013 at 05:26 AM »
There has always been 4k content on youtube for a while now. :)

For regular, non-"demo" content, my suggestion is to wait until HEVC gets standardized.  With the huge push for 4k displays in CES, this may come sooner rather than later.

those available on youtube have very low bitrate. PQ is still way better with 1080p blu ray than 4k with very low bitrate

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #67 on: Jan 23, 2013 at 08:37 PM »
This is another case of technology being shoved into the throats of consumers.  They have already failed with 3D, becoming just a niche market. So what will they tell consumers who bought 3DHDTV sets just a month ago,  upgrade again in less than a year?


Offline Stagea

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #68 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 10:15 AM »
800k?  :o   this makes the JVC 4K Projectors @ 350k (starting) seem like a bargain!  ::)

JVC's "4K e-shift" projectors aren't 4K. Their true 4K projectors belong to their Pro line for now (and they cost much much more).

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #69 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 10:55 AM »
If I can buy a 4K TV within reasonably the same price range as that of current generation high-end 1080p sets, why not?  Seriously, the new Sony 4K made 1080ps look dull side by side.  1080p in 3D may be a flop, but 4K in 2D is pretty darn impressive.

However, 1080p-level pricing for a 4K TV is not likely to happen that soon, while current high-end 1080ps are really really good. So let them brilliant engineers make 4K or 8K or whatever K TV tech evolve and mature as fast as possible.  Hopefully, those CE makers would survive to see their R&Ds become commercial products.


This is another case of technology being shoved into the throats of consumers.  They have already failed with 3D, becoming just a niche market. So what will they tell consumers who bought 3DHDTV sets just a month ago,  upgrade again in less than a year?


« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2013 at 10:59 AM by Clondalkin »

Offline Stagea

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #70 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 11:04 AM »
However, 1080p-level pricing for a 4K TV is not likely to happen that soon, while current high-end 1080ps are really really good. So let them brilliant engineers make 4K or 8K or whatever K TV tech evolve and mature as fast as possible.  Hopefully, those CE makers would survive to see their R&Ds become commercial products.

I agree. The last thing I'd like to see is a sign of stagnation.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #71 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 06:15 PM »
Hopefully, those CE makers would survive to see their R&Ds become commercial products.



Actually, 8k technology was already available when Sony came out with Blu Ray back in 2006. SMPTE released the standards in 2007 and labeled it UHDTV1 (4k) and UHDTV2 (8k)   In fact Blu ray 2k tech was already available in 2003.   The first 8k camera was already demoed in 2005.  So if the CE makers had wanted to, our Blu Ray today could already have been 8K. Afterall, there was already a 4-layer BR disc as early as 2005/6 capable of storing 125 GB.  But, ofcourse, they won't rush it. (Although BD was rushed to compete with a more mature HD-DVD contender). 

CE makers will want to milk the market with what would appear like evolving technology.  This is called PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE and release their products accordingly.  And the period in between two tech generations or the product lifecycle is getting shorter.  VHS to DVD - 20 years.   DVD to BD/2k: 10 years    2k to 4K: 5 years.  4k to 8k: possible in 2 years.

If you check market stats on television sales, it is a shrinking market where most people have already bought their flat panels during the last 1-3 years and are not having any reason to buy new ones or upgrade.  Hence, CE makers need to make their products more attractive by shoving the 4K tech to consumers so they have a good reason to upgrade and start a new product lifecycle.
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2013 at 06:37 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline Stagea

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #72 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 07:07 PM »
In fact Blu ray 2k tech was already available in 2003.

D-VHS was the first consumer grade HD source (2001). We did enjoy it, despite the limited D-Theater releases.

« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2013 at 06:28 AM by Stagea »

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #73 on: Jan 24, 2013 at 11:30 PM »
Here's what I exactly mean by "commercial" product

I saw the Sony HDTV for the very first time in Tokyo sometime in 1991 -  that's nearly 22 years ago! - but it was an experience you never forget and I told my then fiancee that I just saw a TV that felt like looking through a window.  However, I finally could afford to buy my first 32 inch HDTV LCD AFTER NEARLY 15 YEARS!  So the current HDTVs have been around like one human generation already and not just 5 or 10 years - it's not short at all   ;D  ;D

So if the 84 inch Sony 4K still costs around USD$25K and can only be purchased on special order, when do you reckon can I buy an 84 inch 4K for around USD5K?  I'm sure it's not going to take 15 years too, but not really that soon I suppose.   ;)
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2013 at 11:32 PM by Clondalkin »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #74 on: Jan 25, 2013 at 06:00 AM »
There is often a gap between availability of the technology and its commercial readiness.

Commercializing a product depends on market conditions.  The technology can be available 30 years ago, but its commercialization is often based on consumer demands, industry standardization and the determination of the CE makers to make a go for it.  But it is clear that because the CE makers already have the technology, then it is a matter of designing their products with PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE.

And the gap between technology availability and commercialization is getting shorter and shorter, especially with television.  You only need to count the years between VHS to DVD, DVD to 2k, and now 2k to 4k.   4k and 8k technologies are available during the last decade.  And CE makers planned their products accordingly. 

Then there is the pricing issue.  It will always be that the "new" products in the market have a steep price because the CE makers will want to recoup their investments and R&D efforts done years ago at least for the first year of commercializing the new technology. I remember DVD players costing $1,000 when it was first introduced sometime in 1997.  It took Betamax/VHS to become mass-affordable in 8 years, DVD in 4 years, and BD in 3 years.  Same with television.  First generation HDTV became mass-affordable in 6 years, the new LED TVs in 3 years and 3DHDTV in 2-3 years.  That is because these products have achieved market traction from existing customers who upgraded.  In addition, the LED and 3D were merely enhancements of an existing technology.

Now if the 4k and 8k products gain the same market traction, I would guess they will become mass-affordable in 2 years.  The faster the CE's recover their investment, the sooner the mass-affordability gets.   It helps when the technology is not really new, but merely evolutionary so that the R&D cost is small.   From 480p to 2k is considered revolutionary because it jumped from CRT to flat panels.  But 2k to 4k to 8k is not. They only increased the resolutions using the same but enhanced technology.  OLED is another matter.

Having said that, 4k units even if they become mass-affordable, will have to maintain a pricing gap from 2k products in the same class and release year, even if the manufacturing cost of 2k and 4k products are almost the same.  Otherwise, no one will be buying 2k TVs anymore, unless they plan to kill the 2Ks.
« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2013 at 07:19 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #75 on: Jan 25, 2013 at 07:03 AM »
D-VHS was the first consumer grade HD source (2001). We did enjoy it, despite the limited D-Theater releases.



Yes, heard about D-VHS and D-Theater tapes at around the time I got my first DVD player and discovered the convenience of the medium.  Watching home video is about convenience as much as picture quality.  VHS may have the bandwidth to carry interlaced HD but searching for a track still required you to FF or REW.  No such thing in a disc.  You get to your desired section in a snap.  So on hindsight, I never bothered with the format even if it offered superior picture to DVD, as I was too busy enjoying titles being released in DVD and experimenting on my 5.1 sounds. It was only later that I read about its failure in the market which to me was not really a surprise.   

« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2013 at 07:16 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline Stagea

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #76 on: Jan 25, 2013 at 07:24 AM »
Yes, heard about D-VHS and D-Theater tapes at around the time I got my first DVD player and discovered the convenience of the medium.  Watching home video is about convenience as much as picture quality.  VHS may have the bandwidth to carry interlaced HD but searching for a track still required you to FF or REW.  No such thing in a disc.  You get to your desired section in a snap.  So on hindsight, I never bothered with the format even if it offered superior picture to DVD, as I was too busy enjoying titles being released in DVD and experimenting on my 5.1 sounds. It was only later that I read about its failure in the market which to me was not really a surprise.   

Let me correct myself. D-VHS came out in 1998 and not in 2001. Concerts looked exceptionally clear on an H-DILA RPTV. :)

D-VHS' capacity is actually the same as Bluray (upto 50GB). 1080p components didn't exist back then though and the compression used was still MPEG-2.

Aside from the lower cost and operational convenience, most people were still on SD back then. That pretty much killed D-VHS.
« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2013 at 07:30 AM by Stagea »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #77 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 07:47 AM »
It looks like there won't be any physical disc for 4K content.  It may be distributed through internet downloads.


From AVS Forums:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1450935/no-plans-for-new-4k-disc-format-sony



With all this 4K talk at CES this year and no one knows where the content will come from, everyone is asking themselves, how will the content be transmitted?

There's been some teasers from Samsung and Netflix but no real details have been announced yet.

After Sony announced plans on "Mastered in 4K Blu-Rays", Sony's CEO Kaz Hirai told The Verge the following:

Quote
A physical format might sound like a good stop-gap, but Kaz doesn’t think 4K distribution will go that way

What about downloads and bandwidth caps from service providers?

Quote
It might seem early for an internet-based 4K distribution platform given that even Sony admits the massive downloads might take days, but Sony does have some experience with 50GB downloads in the realm of PS3 game distribution. When speaking to us today, Kaz called the adaptation to these long download times a “journey” for consumers that will hopefully be eased eventually by fatter internet pipes to the home.

The Real plan for now:

Quote
“I think as the industry evolves 4K, [it] might decide that a disc format might be something that the consumers are looking for,” Kaz admitted to us. “But at this point, before we get into that sort of format, we’re looking for distribution through the network.”

says Hirai.


Also from:
New disc format for 4K content unlikely, says Sony CEO
Kaz Hirai points to digital distribution methods

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/385531/new-disc-format-for-4k-content-unlikely-says-sony-ceo/
« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2013 at 07:57 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #78 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 08:26 AM »
Why am i not surprised?  With 86mbps average download speeds from Virgin Media's 100mbps package in the UK, for instance, one can download a 100gb 4k movie in just a few minutes.  (less than 30 mins)

Home video distributors will no longer have to spend packaging physical discs.  The cost will now be shifted to consumers who will have to spend for faster broadband internet services. 
« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2013 at 08:59 AM by av_phile1 »

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #79 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 12:04 PM »
A 100mbps (megabits per second) connection can only max at approx. 12MB/sec (megabytes per second) DL speed.  A 100GB (gigabytes) content will take about 2.3 hours if such max speed is sustained.  That's why I think it is still doable especially if the downloader can start watching while downloading.

But then even the very popular iTunes is deliberately compressing the bitrate with their 1080p and 720p Web DL contents so I dont know if Sony or other relevant players can develop the necessary system soon enough to stream 4K at full bitrate.


Why am i not surprised?  With 86mbps average download speeds from Virgin Media's 100mbps package in the UK, for instance, one can download a 100gb 4k movie in just a few minutes.  (less than 30 mins)

Home video distributors will no longer have to spend packaging physical discs.  The cost will now be shifted to consumers who will have to spend for faster broadband internet services.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #80 on: Jan 26, 2013 at 12:16 PM »
2-3 hours of download time would be heaven for me.  I currently download 720p 4.5GB MKV files and it takes me overnight to get it with a crappy SMART BRO connection. 

I am sure some torrent-savvy guy can re-encode them down to a more manageable 40gb file the way many 1080p movies already look gorgeous at 10-12gb mkv files.
« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2013 at 12:22 PM by av_phile1 »

Offline splerdu

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #81 on: Jan 28, 2013 at 03:53 PM »
Hi guys, long time lurker here. Just chiming in coz 4k is exciting.

H.265 to the rescue! ITU approved na. Will encode current content in half the bandwidth, or support future resolutions (4k) using current storage media.

Offline the_w0rks

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #82 on: Jan 28, 2013 at 04:02 PM »
at the office I dl movies I screen before getting the blu ray. usual file size of the 720p files i get range from 4 to 6gb. it takes roughly 5hrs on a good day to dl one file. 3G here can go as fast as 800kB/s. It will definitely take a while for a 4k file to DL.

Plus if it's smaller file size, you can expect that it has lower bitrate and the quality will be subpar.

Offline Clondalkin

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #83 on: Jan 28, 2013 at 04:05 PM »
B R I G H T!!!

Hi guys, long time lurker here. Just chiming in coz 4k is exciting.

H.265 to the rescue! ITU approved na. Will encode current content in half the bandwidth, or support future resolutions (4k) using current storage media.

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #84 on: Jan 28, 2013 at 05:23 PM »
at the office I dl movies I screen before getting the blu ray. usual file size of the 720p files i get range from 4 to 6gb. it takes roughly 5hrs on a good day to dl one file. 3G here can go as fast as 800kB/s. It will definitely take a while for a 4k file to DL.

Plus if it's smaller file size, you can expect that it has lower bitrate and the quality will be subpar.

Clamour your senators and reps to bring foreign telecoms firms to operate here.  Virgin Media in the UK already offers 100Mbps with average 86 Mbps downloads for a mere equivalent of P3T a month. 

Offline av_phile1

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #85 on: Jan 28, 2013 at 05:26 PM »
Hi guys, long time lurker here. Just chiming in coz 4k is exciting.

H.265 to the rescue! ITU approved na. Will encode current content in half the bandwidth, or support future resolutions (4k) using current storage media.

Na-anticipate kaya ito ng developers so we can have the codec upgrades for media players?

Offline Stagea

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #86 on: Jan 28, 2013 at 06:59 PM »
Na-anticipate kaya ito ng developers so we can have the codec upgrades for media players?

I have doubts. Medyo mabigat sa processing ang H.265, unless magshortcut sila ng husto sa decoding.

Opportunity pa sa kanila yan para makabenta ng bago.  ;)
« Last Edit: Jan 28, 2013 at 06:59 PM by Stagea »

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #87 on: Jan 29, 2013 at 12:34 AM »
HEVC (High Efficiency Video Coding) was on CES, too.

I actually think this will likely end up being the more prominent standard as there are some companies and devices which already support it.

Offline Stagea

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #88 on: Jan 29, 2013 at 02:17 AM »
HEVC (High Efficiency Video Coding) was on CES, too.

I actually think this will likely end up being the more prominent standard as there are some companies and devices which already support it.

I agree that it is the way forward. It'd take sometime for mass adoption because current hardware could not decode it natively. I'd suppose that the majority of current desktops and laptops (outside of nettops and netbooks) can handle HD HEVC playback with a software decoder, however.
« Last Edit: Jan 29, 2013 at 02:19 AM by Stagea »

Offline raptor

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Re: 4k next big thing?
« Reply #89 on: Jan 29, 2013 at 02:52 AM »
baka kailangan na ng consumer based na bandwidth accelerators like Riverbed in the future
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