Author Topic: Panasonic Plasma 2012 (Read 72534 times)

Oloap · « **Reply #60 on:** Apr 02, 2012 at 12:03 PM »

Quote from: kenobi on Apr 02, 2012 at 10:05 AM

@Oloap

I have the same dilemma like you but in the end I settled for x30 which I purchased yesterday. I checked the specs of the ut30 and I noticed it only has 900 lines of Moving Resolutions, not really 1080 lines.

Since I will be using it for 50% cable viewing (SD) and 50% Movie watching (720/1080), the x30 is really good for me

I will just check the 2012 models when it becomes available here

thank you sir kenobi. im not a techie, can you further explain what the 900 lines moving resolution is? how does it affect picture quality?

im now veering towards the x30 and just use the savings to add for a new projector (my old projector is showing signs of aging).

im sure the reddish tint can be adjusted to make the skin tones comparable to the ut30.

btw, anybody here can explain what does 24p feature does?

thanks.

barrister · « **Reply #61 on:** Apr 02, 2012 at 12:14 PM »

Quote from: kenobi on Apr 02, 2012 at 10:05 AM

I have the same dilemma like you but in the end I settled for x30 which I purchased yesterday. I checked the specs of the ut30 and I noticed it only has 900 lines of Moving Resolutions, not really 1080 lines.

Since I will be using it for 50% cable viewing (SD) and 50% Movie watching (720/1080), the x30 is really good for me

I will just check the 2012 models when it becomes available here

Congrats!

900 lines of motion resolution is actually good enough for a lower-end 1080p plasma. A few years ago, 880 lines was the highest motion resolution capability of any flat panel TV.

LCD/LED panels are really bad, with lower-end 1080p panels having 1080 lines static resolution but only around 300 to 600 lines of motion resolution. That's why LCD/LED manufacturers have to use 120/240Hz trickery to hide the low motion resolution.

barrister · « **Reply #62 on:** Apr 02, 2012 at 02:27 PM »

Quote from: Oloap on Apr 02, 2012 at 12:03 PM

btw, anybody here can explain what does 24p feature does?

thanks.

24p is the frame rate, which means "24 progressive frames per second."

24fps (frames per second) is the frame rate of a film projector (or digital projector) in a movie theater. But the 24fps rate has to be shuttered by the projector, either twice per frame (48fps), or shuttered 3x per frame (72fps).

When TVs specify 24p, it actually means 23.976p, not true 24p. However, since the majority of Blu-rays and HD files are also encoded at 23.976fps, and very few are really encoded at true 24p, the difference is not too much of a problem.

To reproduce the motion cadence of film as closely as possible, Blu-ray and HD files are usually encoded at 23.976fps rate. But regular progressive TVs have a frame rate of 60fps (NTSC), or 50fps (PAL). If your TV is displaying at 60fps, motion cadence will be slightly off, with slightly unnatural judder, especially during camera pan scenes. That's why for best motion cadence, your TV should also be displaying at a 23.976fps rate (usually stated as "24p").

If your eyes are used to real movies in a theater, you'll appreciate the motion cadence of 23.976p. And you'll say the 120Hz/240Hz motion interpolation tech of LCD/LCD is a silly gimmick.

Oloap · « **Reply #63 on:** Apr 02, 2012 at 03:34 PM »

Quote from: barrister on Apr 02, 2012 at 02:27 PM

24p is the frame rate, which means "24 progressive frames per second."

24fps (frames per second) is the frame rate of a film projector (or digital projector) in a movie theater. But the 24fps rate has to be shuttered by the projector, either twice per frame (48fps), or shuttered 3x per frame (72fps).

When TVs specify 24p, it actually means 23.976p, not true 24p. However, since the majority of Blu-rays and HD files are also encoded at 23.976fps, and very few are really encoded at true 24p, the difference is not too much of a problem.

To reproduce the motion cadence of film as closely as possible, Blu-ray and HD files are usually encoded at 23.976fps rate. But regular progressive TVs have a frame rate of 60fps (NTSC), or 50fps (PAL). If your TV is displaying at 60fps, motion cadence will be slightly off, with slightly unnatural judder, especially during camera pan scenes. That's why for best motion cadence, your TV should also be displaying at a 23.976fps rate (usually stated as "24p").

If your eyes are used to real movies in a theater, you'll appreciate the motion cadence of 23.976p. And you'll say the 120Hz/240Hz motion interpolation tech of LCD/LCD is a silly gimmick.

thank you for the explanation. i've learned something new today.

back to topic - so the ut30 has 24p and none for the x30. does that mean x30 will have juddering?

can you also explain the 900 moving lines vs static lines? what will it mean to me as a non-techie?

barrister · « **Reply #64 on:** Apr 02, 2012 at 04:43 PM »

Quote from: Oloap on Apr 02, 2012 at 03:34 PM

back to topic - so the ut30 has 24p and none for the x30. does that mean x30 will have juddering?

I'm sure the X30 has the 24p option because it's been available on the lowest-end Panny plasmas since maybe 2009.

X30 specs have it: http://www.panasonic.com.sg/wps/portal/home/products/digitalav/tv/vieraplasmatv/xseries/VIERATHP42X30

"24p Smooth Film/Playback --- 24p Playback" (click the "specifications" tab)

Set it to 24p for 23.976p-encoded BD or downloaded HD file and you'll get film-like motion cadence. Yes, it will still have juddering, but it will have the good judder that looks like the natural cadence of 24fps film.

What eliminates judder is not the 24p spec, but the motion interpolation tech found on higher-end LCD & LED TVs. However, it's not such a good thing because the motion becomes unnatural. Forums call it the "SOE" (Soap Opera Effect). You'll also get occasional artifacts such as tearing. Here's a good article about motion interpolation:

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6792632-1.html

Quote from: Oloap on Apr 02, 2012 at 03:34 PM

can you also explain the 900 moving lines vs static lines? what will it mean to me as a non-techie?

You already know what resolution means. The resolution spec refers to a static image, not a moving image.

When the image on the screen is in motion, the resolution normally decreases. What you get is a sharp picture for still images and slow-moving images, but a slightly blurry picture for fast-moving images.

That's why in-store LCD/LED demos usually show static images or slow-moving images, because they want to hide the artifact during the demo.

If you have a TV with a high motion resolution spec (higher than 600 lines without interpolation), the picture will be sharp whether it's a static image or a fast-moving image.

Demo the X30 with a fast-moving image, and I think it's going to be just fine. It's likely that any motion blur you see will be mostly caused by fast-motion blur that's already present on the video source itself, rather than by any obvious artifacting from the TV.

I'm not sure about the specs of the UT30, but I think it has 1080 lines of motion resolution. What I'm sure about is that the U30 has 900 lines, and the X30 has 720 lines of motion resolution. 720 lines is pretty excellent for the X30, since it only has 768 native lines of resolution anyway.

To put things in perspective, the LCD/LED TVs usually have 300 lines of motion resolution, and they increase frequency to 120Hz to add a motion interpolation tech. They say they're doing it to eliminate judder, but I think they're really doing it to artificially double the motion resolution.

Here's a related article: http://hdguru.com/a-solution-to-the-dreaded-soap-opera-effect/2119/

Oloap · « **Reply #65 on:** Apr 02, 2012 at 07:56 PM »

you're the man, sir barrister.

i tried further research. di ako mapakali. i want to know the reason for the price difference. I'm sure there must be some.

so here are whats on ut30 (na wala sa x30)

contrast 4000000:1 (vs. 3500000:1)
fast switching phosphors (none for x30)
2500hz focused field drive (vs. 600hz for x30)
24p smooth film (none for x30 - though both have 24p playback)
vivid color recreation (none for x30)
web smoother (none for x30)
3d real sound (none for x30 - i really don't care about this. I'm sure this is garbage)
usb2 - 2 (1 for x30)
digital audio output - optical (none for x30)
viera connect
web browser
Skype while watching tv
social networking
viera remote app support
has more media support
resume play ( i don't know what the hell is this)
142w (vs 122w for x30)
has dolby digital,dts,dolby pulse

there you have it. so, is the 15k worth the difference?

isip-isip, i have to decide before the holy week break. arrggghhhh this is killing me. I'm so indecisive.

Oloap · « **Reply #66 on:** Apr 02, 2012 at 08:52 PM »

PAHABOL.

it seems to me that the above specs are mostly for ut50.

the specs of ut30 malaysia/singapore is slightly different from that of UT30M being sold here. a lot of the specs are similar to UT50 above except for the 2500hz subfield and a few more.

it has 1080 moving line resolution as well (instead of 900 for the malaysian/singapore model).

things have gotten more complicated since i did my research. tomorrow i will go back to the store and read the manual of both.

barrister · « **Reply #67 on:** Apr 03, 2012 at 12:41 AM »

Out of all those specs, only the fast-switching phosphors and 2,500Hz focused field drive are useful. All the other specs are not so important.

Fast-switching phosphors are relevant if you're one of those (like me and Carlo777) who can see the green phosphor trail on fast-moving, high-contrast images. Even then, I'm still not confident that the green phosphor trail issue has been totally eliminated this year.

The 2,500Hz focused field drive is supposed to improve the motion quality. According to hdtvtest.co.uk, motion quality on the Panasonic 42ST50 has significantly improved over the high-end Panasonic plasmas of 2011.

Those specs can't be right for a 2011 model. That's because the focused field drive is a Panny spec that only came out this 2012.

Worth the P15K difference? No, not for a 2011 model. If it's a P15K difference for a 2012 1080p model, then I would say it's worth it.

Quote from: Oloap on Apr 02, 2012 at 08:52 PM

the specs of ut30 malaysia/singapore is slightly different from that of UT30M being sold here. a lot of the specs are similar to UT50 above except for the 2500hz subfield and a few more.

Distinguish subfield drive from focused field drive. Subfield drive is an old Panny spec that has always been 600Hz. Focused field drive is a 2012 Panny spec that is 2,500Hz in most countries, and 2,000Hz in other countries.

halvert · « **Reply #68 on:** Apr 03, 2012 at 12:32 PM »

sabi ni carlo777 dati, kung for cable viewing at dvd watching and for hi-def but not CGI-heavy movies, ok na ang x30.
although he was talking about 42" tvs ewanko lang sa 50 inch tv... ayaw mo ng 42 st30? or 42v20 na P45,000 dun sa display devices marketplace? (pinagulo ko pa yung isip mo)
ako kasi hd ready lang yung 32lx80 ko tapos dahil nag-birthday ako, bumili ako ng full hd 42ut30 pero wala namang malaking difference ang 720 movie sa hd ready at full hd.
or baka kaya mo pa maghintay ng konti baka dumating na yung 2012 models later this year. i don't know but some of our members order abroad and have them shipped here.

mightbeyou · « **Reply #69 on:** Apr 03, 2012 at 02:28 PM »

sirs, does panny have any plasmas which are within the 55" and above size which are available locally...sorry if its the wrong thread to ask but been really wanting to purchase one as an replacement for my 42x30...thanks...

Oloap · « **Reply #70 on:** Apr 03, 2012 at 02:58 PM »

thank you everybody especially to sir barrister for providing useful information. after considering all the information on board, i finally took the plunge.

i went to listening room with the mindset of getting the 50x30 and the little savings for a blu ray player. however the owner (Oliver) was there to walk me thru all the questions i had. He was never pushy and he showed the subtleties of the two candidate tvs. He patiently explained each features the UT30 has that is not present in the x30. he also explained the why plasma has superior blacks and why it has higher energy consumption.

in the end, he was able to sway me to buy the ut30. and i think its a great buy.

Oloap · « **Reply #71 on:** Apr 03, 2012 at 02:59 PM »

Quote from: mightbeyou on Apr 03, 2012 at 02:28 PM

sirs, does panny have any plasmas which are within the 55" and above size which are available locally...sorry if its the wrong thread to ask but been really wanting to purchase one as an replacement for my 42x30...thanks...

there is a 55st30 at listening room. best "middle level" plasma tv there is.

halvert · « **Reply #72 on:** Apr 03, 2012 at 03:09 PM »

congrats on your purchase Mr Oloap!
to mightbe you, merong seller sa display devices marketplace named john_johnc selling panasonic
Panasonic 65" TH-65ST30 = 209,995 (Note: Less 3% Cash net na po)
3D Plasma

Panasonic 65" 65PZ850 Plasma = 168,000 (net)

dencio105 · « **Reply #73 on:** Apr 03, 2012 at 03:14 PM »

Quote from: Oloap on Apr 03, 2012 at 02:59 PM

there is a 55st30 at listening room. best "middle level" plasma tv there is.

How much kaya to sir?

Oloap · « **Reply #74 on:** Apr 03, 2012 at 08:52 PM »

Quote from: dencio105 on Apr 03, 2012 at 03:14 PM

How much kaya to sir?

i think what i saw was the 65. please refer to sir halvert's post above. the 50st30 is around 72k++. I'm not very sure. pm the sellers here.

halvert · « **Reply #75 on:** Apr 03, 2012 at 11:02 PM »

Listening in style facebook page says 55st30 is P90,000 (gasp!)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=350232288352944&set=a.189576654418509.40439.166737056702469&type=3
Yung 50vt30 114,600

Stagea · « **Reply #76 on:** Apr 04, 2012 at 01:57 AM »

Quote from: barrister on Apr 02, 2012 at 12:14 PM

LCD/LED panels are really bad, with lower-end 1080p panels having 1080 lines static resolution but only around 300 to 600 lines of motion resolution. That's why LCD/LED manufacturers have to use 120/240Hz trickery to hide the low motion resolution.

They can blink the backlight too, to improve "motion resolution" less expensively. Many midlevel LEDs now exceed 900 lines of motion resolution with the help of this.

Stagea · « **Reply #77 on:** Apr 04, 2012 at 02:02 AM »

Quote from: Oloap on Apr 03, 2012 at 02:58 PM

in the end, he was able to sway me to buy the ut30. and i think its a great buy.

Congrats with your new TV!

Oloap · « **Reply #78 on:** Apr 04, 2012 at 06:50 AM »

Quote from: Stagea on Apr 04, 2012 at 02:02 AM

Congrats with your new TV!

thank you sir stagea. it will be our tv for a loooooong time.

toys4geeks · « **Reply #79 on:** Apr 04, 2012 at 09:19 AM »

Quote from: Oloap on Apr 03, 2012 at 02:58 PM

thank you everybody especially to sir barrister for providing useful information. after considering all the information on board, i finally took the plunge.

i went to listening room with the mindset of getting the 50x30 and the little savings for a blu ray player. ...

in the end, he was able to sway me to buy the ut30. and i think its a great buy.

kano score mo bro ? which model? pa PM naman.

barrister · « **Reply #80 on:** Apr 05, 2012 at 08:38 PM »

Quote from: Oloap on Apr 03, 2012 at 02:58 PM

thank you everybody especially to sir barrister for providing useful information. after considering all the information on board, i finally took the plunge.

i went to listening room with the mindset of getting the 50x30 and the little savings for a blu ray player. however the owner (Oliver) was there to walk me thru all the questions i had. He was never pushy and he showed the subtleties of the two candidate tvs. He patiently explained each features the UT30 has that is not present in the x30. he also explained the why plasma has superior blacks and why it has higher energy consumption.

in the end, he was able to sway me to buy the ut30. and i think its a great buy.

Congrats!

Is it a 42UT30 or a 50UT30?

Does the UT30 have an exhaust cooling fan at the back?

Tavus · « **Reply #81 on:** Apr 05, 2012 at 10:56 PM »

These are great TV but sometimes you might encounter one with bugs.

Before you make your purchase, make sure to check your Panasonic 2011 GT, VT and ST models for FBr or "fluctuating brightness" and the green tint/blob error. From what i gathered, units manufactured later than august 2011 are less likely to have the fbr error.

there's a lot information on the net floating on these errors.

Clondalkin · « **Reply #82 on:** Apr 06, 2012 at 07:21 AM »

And there's a lot of owners who don't see those alleged issues, or don't really mind those things.

Quote from: Tavus on Apr 05, 2012 at 10:56 PM

These are great TV but sometimes you might encounter one with bugs.

Before you make your purchase, make sure to check your Panasonic 2011 GT, VT and ST models for FBr or "fluctuating brightness" and the green tint/blob error. From what i gathered, units manufactured later than august 2011 are less likely to have the fbr error.

there's a lot information on the net floating on these errors.

Stagea · « **Reply #83 on:** Apr 06, 2012 at 08:03 AM »

Quote from: Clondalkin on Apr 06, 2012 at 07:21 AM

And there's a lot of owners who don't see those alleged issues, or don't really mind those things.

Or had gotten accustomed to them? I used to get annoyed with Plasma flicker. I've learned to ignore it and now I barely notice it when frame doubling is enabled. As for green ghosting, I see it but I just don't get bothered by it.

Clondalkin · « **Reply #84 on:** Apr 06, 2012 at 08:21 AM »

My family and I have no idea whatsoever if there is anything wrong with our 2-year old V2 and V20. Guests arrived from Manila last night and they were instantly awed by its IQ, while my small house was fully illuminated at every corner. Watched The Masters Live in HD this morning - now that's all green everywhere. Hehehe

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another V series if ever I need a new plasma again. Looks like years pa bibilangin.

It does exhibit strong IR though.

Quote from: Stagea on Apr 06, 2012 at 08:03 AM

Or had gotten accustomed to them? I used to get annoyed with Plasma flicker. I've learned to ignore it and now I barely notice it when frame doubling is enabled. As for green ghosting, I see it but I just don't get bothered by it.

barrister · « **Reply #85 on:** Apr 06, 2012 at 02:16 PM »

Quote from: Tavus on Apr 05, 2012 at 10:56 PM

These are great TV but sometimes you might encounter one with bugs.

Before you make your purchase, make sure to check your Panasonic 2011 GT, VT and ST models for FBr or "fluctuating brightness" and the green tint/blob error. From what i gathered, units manufactured later than august 2011 are less likely to have the fbr error.

there's a lot information on the net floating on these errors.

FBr for the 2011 Panny Plasmas was reportedly present on the Neo Plasma models. The 2011 FBr issue was fixed via firmware patch issued around August 2011.

However, the green blob/pink tint issue on the 2011 Panny Neo Plasmas does not have a clear solution. A firmware patch was announced by Panasonic UK in November 2011, with Panny UK clarifying that the firmware is not available for customer download, and must be installed by official Panasonic service.

Two users from avforums report an improvement, but the green blob was not totally eliminated:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/plasma-tvs/1598237-panasonic-2011-official-green-blob-fix-discussion.html

It looks like the 2011 green blob problem cannot be totally fixed by a firmware patch. The whole TV must be totally redone in a new 2012 model if you want a real elimination of the issue.

Me, I prefer to wait for the 2012 models. No FBr, no green blob. Totally redone panel + software.

Oloap · « **Reply #86 on:** Apr 06, 2012 at 03:27 PM »

so far i have not seen any fluctuating blacks nor the green blobs. hopefully it stays that way.

sir barrister, i got the 50ut30. I'm very happy with it. as for the exhaust fan, none we could find but after watching for two hours, the tv is warm at the back upper portion and cool in back middle and lower portion.

observations:

1. played a dvd using dvd player without upscaling capabilities using component cables. i was prepared to be disappointed but surprisingly the picture was very good and watchable. we played stars wars episode 3 for my son.

2. watched a dl of braveheart but my wife said its not sharp.

3. watched dl of red cliff and i was blown away by the picture.

i think regardless of upscaling if the movie was shot in sd, it will remain soft. however, if shot in hi def and downscaled, it will remain sharp.

for its price i would say its a good buy. my budget was for a 50x30 last december but i waited awhile and shifted to this.

barrister · « **Reply #87 on:** Apr 06, 2012 at 11:12 PM »

Thanks for the info.

That's good news about the absence of FBr. The UT30 is not a Neo Plasma, so I don't think it will have any FBr or green blob problem.

A 1080p plasma can get very warm, unlike a 720p plasma. The NeoPDPs / Neo Plasmas are the warmest, so they always have internal cooling fans.

Stagea · « **Reply #88 on:** Apr 07, 2012 at 01:21 AM »

Quote from: Clondalkin on Apr 06, 2012 at 08:21 AM

My family and I have no idea whatsoever if there is anything wrong with our 2-year old V2 and V20. Guests arrived from Manila last night and they were instantly awed by its IQ, while my small house was fully illuminated at every corner. Watched The Masters Live in HD this morning - now that's all green everywhere. Hehehe

I wouldn't hesitate to buy another V series if ever I need a new plasma again. Looks like years pa bibilangin.

It does exhibit strong IR though.

Nice. My main TV uses a G12 1080p panel. I don't notice much discoloration (or green blob issue). I think that's only for the NeoPDP models (G13 NeoPDP only?). I do notice some minimal green ghosting at times, though it's not nearly as bad as my older Plasmas.

barrister · « **Reply #89 on:** Apr 07, 2012 at 11:48 AM »

Green ghosting (phosphor trailing) has been hardly visible starting around 2008. I have to look for it to see it, and when I do see it, it's very slight. However, some people are more sensitive to phosphor trails than others.

The green blob issue appeared on the 2011 Neo Plasmas, which are G14 panels. Even then, not all G14 Neo Plasma panels have it. Some do, and some are worse than others. On some G14 Neo Plasmas, the green blob disappears after a few hundred hours of use.