Author Topic: Newbie & Not-so Noob Thread: Questions (FAQ) on Receivers/Amplifiers  (Read 190964 times)

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Offline Archangel

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Just for your peace of mind, I would suggest you make them of equal lengths.  The mathematical differences in resistances are quite minute unless we're talking of lengths in the 20+meters.

Thanks.  

Offline joan2

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mga sir, what does a higher (or lower) damping factor do to the sound?  i tried reading a very lengthy technical explanation, but my short attention span left me at halfway the 20th paragraph.

is this the same as the "softness" switch in some amps?

i have an amp that sounds aggresive on some music material.  when i turn on the "softness" switch, decay seem shorter but tonal balance remains the same, resulting in a smoother sound.  is this an effect of damping factor?  i remember seeing an accuphase amp with low/med/high adjustments on damping factor.

damping factor is a measure of the amps internal impedance at any given frequency, this is an indication of how good the amp can control speaker movement, higher figures being desireable, ss amps tends to have lower damping factor as frequency increases dur to the addition of a zobel network, in series with the output, this adds impedance being inductive as the frequency increases, some designs delete this, bu most designs have this.....

Offline joan2

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i once had this client of mine, an audiophile, and his setup, consisted of a cd player, a tube pre-amp, a power amp, and a set of speakers... in his setup, he only had a volume control, no equalisers, no loudness controls, nor anything that may imply adulterating the sound...

Offline av_phile

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mga sir, what does a higher (or lower) damping factor do to the sound?  i tried reading a very lengthy technical explanation, but my short attention span left me at halfway the 20th paragraph.

is this the same as the "softness" switch in some amps?

i have an amp that sounds aggresive on some music material.  when i turn on the "softness" switch, decay seem shorter but tonal balance remains the same, resulting in a smoother sound.  is this an effect of damping factor?  i remember seeing an accuphase amp with low/med/high adjustments on damping factor.

Here's an interesting article on damping factor (DF):

http://pssaudio.com/english/1art010.htm

I tend to agree with the article in that DF is more a byproduct of negative feedback.  The higher the DF, the more negative feedback in employed in the design of the amplifer circuit.  Negative feedback allows an amp to control the output and is usually frowned at in hi-fi circles.   Check the article ouyt and see why anything  higher than a DF of 20 is immaterial.

Offline Gino

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Will a ss integrated amp benefit from a tube preamp? say my Rotel RA-931 Mk II? Just curious since there are a few hybrid amps going around.

Offline av_phile

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Will a ss integrated amp benefit from a tube preamp? say my Rotel RA-931 Mk II? Just curious since there are a few hybrid amps going around.

If your integrated amp has a "MAIN IN" terminal at the back, then it can acccept the output of a pre-amp, whether tube or ss.  

Offline joan2

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Quote
I tend to agree with the article in that DF is more a byproduct of negative feedback.

yes, but negative feedback is not evil per se, when used to cover up for amp non-linearities it is, but if the amp design is good to begin with, then negative feedback can realy help...amp designers, in an attempt to come up with products of low thd and im,obviously for marketing purposes, design very high open-loop gains in their amps then use large amounts of feedbacks...it is in these cases that we have amps that measure very well in terms of distortion but fails miserably in listening tests.....negative feedback is unavoidable, tubes and solid state designs use local feeback, local feeback is nescessary where you have mass production and you have no time to screen out the parts to be used, or doing so would not be economically feaseable..amp design is product of engineering decisions, what will sell, what are the parts available, what is the technonolgy in fashion at the moment, and all these is made for one purpose only, that is to make a profit!!!!..that is why DIY could be the better option than buying ready made amps, because with DIY , you can have all the trimmings that you want, how much and what quality is yours to choose!!!!
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2003 at 12:43 PM by joan2 »

Offline joan2

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Will a ss integrated amp benefit from a tube preamp? say my Rotel RA-931 Mk II? Just curious since there are a few hybrid amps going around.

you may never know unless you try....

Offline Mika

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bros,

is it okay to use a valve amp as benchmark for ss amp (or vice-versa). from what i've read here, these two seem to be two different bananas? so, what can i use as reference, for comparison (i.e. technically speaking)? what parameters/specifications contribute much on how sound comes out from the speakers?

i know the best test for an amp would still be my own ears (and everything in between it ;D )

 8)

Offline joan2

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technically, it is pointless to compare tube amps with ss amps as they are worlds apart, maybe a comparison between a triode or a pentode amp, or between a bjt output as against mosfet output amps...but you may compare them as to the sound that they produce!!!

Offline akyatbundok

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Class A naman.. sir, i see a lot of amps with emblems on the faceplate claiming Class A or even Class AA (Technics does this alot).  I also saw in the norh site that their Le Amp II is class A in the gain stage and then class AB on the bipolar stage.  What is the gain stage & bipolar stage?  Also, how does a pure class A amp differ in sound from a semi-class A amp?  Thanks!

Offline homer

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class a operation utilizes a single device to drive the entire cycle of the signal.  class b uses 2 devices, 1 drives the upper half cycle, another drives the bottom.  class ab is class b with some overlap between the 2 halves.  the purpose of which is to cover the minute dead zone between the 2 halves.  this dead zone produces what is called crossover distortion.  class a does not produce this type of distortion.

Offline Leiko

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Preamp question: why need for Lo Z and Hi Z -- for SS and tube amps?  What's the big deal in Z's if i 'misused' them, say my preamp doesn't have that selection?

Offline joan2

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Class A naman.. sir, i see a lot of amps with emblems on the faceplate claiming Class A or even Class AA (Technics does this alot).  I also saw in the norh site that their Le Amp II is class A in the gain stage and then class AB on the bipolar stage.  What is the gain stage & bipolar stage?  Also, how does a pure class A amp differ in sound from a semi-class A amp?  Thanks!

it is very common to see the low level stages in an amp operate class A, for a typical solid state power amp, there are three stages:
1. input stage, almost always a long-tail pair, differential amplifier, this is normaly Class A, the stage amplifies the difference between the input signal and the feedback signals from the output stage.
2. the VAS or voltage amplifying stage, or simply voltage gain stage, it is this stage that provides to full voltage swing to the speakers..this is also operated class A. this stage has the highest voltage gain..
3. the output stage, which can be bjt's or mosfets, the function of the output stage is to couple the low impedance speakers to the VAS, since the VAS can not drive the speakers directly. this stage has a voltage gain of unity (1) and a current gain defined by the product of beta's of the output and driver transistors...

>for a  true Class A amp, output transistors are biased to the desired operating point, regardless of wether there is an input signal or not,or wether current is flowing thru the speaker load, it is constant and always flowing thru the output devices. a class A amp avoids the problems associated with transistors cutting-off and cutting-on,  this according to some is the best sounding of all the three configurations, but the costs involved may not be worth it eventually....
>for a class B, there is no quiscient current at all, the output devices alternately swing from conduction to cut-off, that is why this in this type of output cross-over distortion is indeed very noticable,
>for class AB, the output devices a slighly biased, to about 50ma or so per device, increasing this bias can lead to a regenerative phenomenon known as thermal run-away, this is for bjt's., for mosfets, bias can be set higher to say 100ma or more since the thermal-run-away phenomenon is not present with this type of devices, in fact increasing bias gives a better sounding amp. but this can not be done arbitrarily, there are other factors to consider.bjt' devices also have this secondary breakdown characteristics, wherein  a high voltage and current can not occur simultaneously, mechanism, creates a pinhole size hotpots on the die surface that can destroy the transistors in a sec. Class AB operates classA for the first 200mW or so, then operates classB as required by the load, thus the term Class AB, but unlike class B the transistors are never fully off


to give you an idea, a ClassA amp can have an idling power consumption of say 50 watts for a ten watt output, while a class AB 5 watts for a 250 watt output!!!
class A amps uses huge heatsinks...mark levinson had a class A amp bigger and hevier than this 250 watt models..

to guide you, if you see an amp that says it is classA, the first thing to do is to lift it, if is lightweight, then chances are it is not, also the power consumption rating, a true ss Class A  will put the dynaco st70 in shame with regards to power consumption....
hope this enlightens you....
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2003 at 08:05 PM by joan2 »

Offline joan2

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Preamp question: why need for Lo Z and Hi Z -- for SS and tube amps?  What's the big deal in Z's if i 'misused' them, say my preamp doesn't have that selection?

it is all a matter of compromise, a low z implies lower noise, but then you will have to use larger capacitos to get the desired lo-freq corner, whreas the higher impedance is more prone to noise pick-ups as a result of stray capacitance. the ideal situantion would be a lo z preamp driving a high impedance input of an amp....

this is also probably the reason for cables and interconnects tweaking, to find that perfect macth...
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2003 at 05:31 PM by joan2 »

Offline joan2

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akyat,
and all others interested,
if you want to get some good info about class A this is you link:http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/

enjoy!!!

Offline Leiko

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Capacitor questions:  

How do bypass and filter caps differ by function?  How do they affect the sound?

In replacing caps, what are the rules to follow in uF and voltage selection? How do the numbers affect the sound?

Offline ariel

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i got this old technics 2 channel amp. and it says it is class A (even have the schematic). it is rated at 60w/channel and the power consumtion is at 500watts. is this really class A?

Offline joan2

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Quote
Capacitor questions:  

How do bypass and filter caps differ by function?  How do they affect the sound?
In replacing caps, what are the rules to follow in uF and voltage selection? How do the numbers affect the sound?

bypass and filter caps, well a filter cap by its name alone is meant to reduce power supply ripples as a result of ac rectification, store electric charge(dc volts) and release it to the load as required by the music demands, they are ussually high in value, a few thousand ufds, myself is an advocate of large filter values, i used 120kufd in one of my amps, a bypass cap on the other hand, is used in parallel to an existing cap and is ussually low in value, like a 100ufd can be bypassed with a 100nf(0.1ufd) to filter out high frequency noise...
when replacing caps try to repalce with the same specs, if this is not practical, with the same voltage but with a higher ufd, or with both higher ufd and higher working volts dc...sometimes, parralelling caps with smaller values is better than using a single cap of a high value, reason being, esr will be lower for parrallleld units....
don't forget, coupling caps can also benefit from bypassing with a suitable cap, teflon, polypropylene, paralyne, and polycarbonates are good choices, ceramic caps can be replaced with polystyrene or silvered mica types....
a good discussion about caps can be found here:
http://www.capacitors.com/pickcap/pickcap.htm
« Last Edit: Oct 22, 2003 at 09:14 AM by joan2 »

Offline joan2

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i got this old technics 2 channel amp. and it says it is class A (even have the schematic). it is rated at 60w/channel and the power consumtion is at 500watts. is this really class A?

with that power consumption rating, i believe it is, is it heavy? does it have massive heatsinks? a class A can easly be made to operate class AB by simple idle current adjustment, in fact, almost all ss amps operate classA for the first 100mw or so of its output, because of the quiscient biasing scheme....but can be easily nullified by the cross-over distrotion....
« Last Edit: Oct 22, 2003 at 09:18 AM by joan2 »

Offline ariel

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it is low profile but heavy. it has 2 separate transformers. ( power supply? i already opened it up) it also has this auto bias for 4 ohm load. dont know what it is but the rated power output for 4 ohms and 8 ohm loads are constant - 60watts. form what i read on other amplifier specs, the power rating for the 4 ohm load is higher than the 8 ohm load.

Offline joan2

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what they do with the 4ohm load is to limit the amps output so the ouput stay the same regardles of load impedance...i believe yours is psuedo-classA type...or maybe at 4ohms they lower the rails by about 40%....if i can have a look at your schematics i can tell you for sure...
« Last Edit: Oct 22, 2003 at 12:10 PM by joan2 »

Offline ariel

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thanks a lot. i will try to scan the schematic.

Offline joan2

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ariel,
you can send to my other e-mail address:[email protected]

Offline akyatbundok

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Re: Vibrations
« Reply #84 on: Oct 24, 2003 at 11:41 AM »
Are solid state amps affected by vibration?

When playing music at not-so-loud volume level it's normal to feel vibrations on furniture.  I can tell that it might affect the CD player, because some people put slabs of concrete on top of theirs just to dampen the vibrations.  But does it affect amps?  My sony amp makes a big deal out of it.  The base of the chassis has a honeycomb design and the electrolytic condensers are held tight by rubber that is pressed downwards by fiberglass.  Why would a manufacturer spend for that?
« Last Edit: Oct 24, 2003 at 11:45 AM by akyatbundok »

Offline akyatbundok

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OT: sir joan2, we may have a supplier who knows about the T-J115/K405 mosfets.  he was asking are they P-ch or N-ch?
« Last Edit: Oct 24, 2003 at 11:58 AM by akyatbundok »

Offline av_phile

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Re: Vibrations
« Reply #86 on: Oct 24, 2003 at 01:07 PM »
Are solid state amps affected by vibration?

When playing music at not-so-loud volume level it's normal to feel vibrations on furniture.  I can tell that it might affect the CD player, because some people put slabs of concrete on top of theirs just to dampen the vibrations.  But does it affect amps?  My sony amp makes a big deal out of it.  The base of the chassis has a honeycomb design and the electrolytic condensers are held tight by rubber that is pressed downwards by fiberglass.  Why would a manufacturer spend for that?


The phenomenon is called "microphonics" to identify vibration picked up by audio gears.  It is based on the principle that mechanical movements can induce electrical signals or pulses much like what happens to nicrophones.  It affects valve amplifeirs more adversely than solid state devices. A tube contain metal parts inside the vaccum that can move by external force and thus result in some unwanted electrical signals other than what is expected. (Try tapping a tube while in operation.) Also turntables and CD/DVD players are very senstive to extraneous movements outside their own and can adversely affect their respective output.

While vibration can induce ripples in a pail of water, i am not totally convinced they have as much impact on chemically-based capacitors and transistors as they do on tubes.  There certainly are manufacturers who consider some SS electronic parts as susceptible to micorphonics and design their amps to isolate these. But whether true or not, it always makes for a good  design philosophy to eleminate microphonics where possible by using solid materials and robust construction in any hi-fi equipment.  Nothing to lose there, except $$$.
« Last Edit: Oct 24, 2003 at 01:10 PM by av_phile »

Offline akyatbundok

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thanks av_phile, this made me curious about vibrations and amplifier parts... it seems to be the capacitors that are prone to vibrations.

you're right... i got this from the ELNA website:

When a general purpose capacitor experiences a sound pressure or external mechanical vibration, the energy of such an external disturbance acts on the interface between the oxide film and the electrolyte, causing electric noise to be generated which results in a noisy signal and degraded sound quality of the capacitor.

Vibration appears to be the primary design consideration for their fusion of silk fiber and manila hemp in their top-of-the-line SILMIC range.

Offline joan2

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akyat,
vibrations may indeed have an effect on electrolytic caps, but up to what extent, we can not tell, i suspect if there is at all it will be very low in magnitude so as to affect the sound...microphonics are almost absent in ss gears, but is prevalent with tubes, but in the early days of solid state, there is this phenomenon wherein, ss amps whould emit crackling sound as if coming from nowhere, checking transistor devices can not root out the culprit, so in this case, wholesale replacement is done with new transistors to solve the problem, i encountered this many times, but moderns ss devices do not seem to suffer from this as manufacturing methods have improved by leaps and bounds since...cd's and other devices like turntables are susceptible to vibrations so that good damping measures are almost always required....not needed for ss amps however, imho....
Quote
Vibration appears to be the primary design consideration for their fusion of silk fiber and manila hemp in their top-of-the-line SILMIC range.
they can put whatever they want in the caps, but in the final analysis, it will be the quality of aluminum oxide dielectric, and the acqeous liquids that they use that will determine the outcome, after all an aluminum electrolytic is just that, made up of aluminum oxide, the other stuff they will put in will just serve as separators, so i am not very much impressed by their gimiks.....
« Last Edit: Oct 24, 2003 at 02:28 PM by joan2 »

Offline joan2

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OT: sir joan2, we may have a supplier who knows about the T-J115/K405 mosfets.  he was asking are they P-ch or N-ch?
2sk405/2sj115:
they are complimentary pair mosfets, rated at 160volts, and 8amps....the original ones were made by toshiba....
possible replacements are irf640/irf9640....
« Last Edit: Oct 24, 2003 at 02:27 PM by joan2 »