Topic: Elna capacitors, where to buy ?

[qguy]

Need to change some capacitors (the small ones from 1uf/25v to 220uf/35v) on an amplifier, Does Deeco sell Elna capacitors ?

[JojoD818]

Try RS or Element14 bro...

In terms of electrical performance, you could also look at Panasonic FS and FM series.

Happy hunting.

[markcrenz]

Try RS or Element14 bro...

In terms of electrical performance, you could also look at Panasonic FS and FM series.

Happy hunting.

talagang naka-bold pa ha? 

tyr narnia or lalaland caps. it can magically transform the sound of your amp. 

[ATJr.]

talagang naka-bold pa ha? 

tyr narnia or lalaland caps. it can magically transform the sound of your amp. 

saan meron nyan?

[JojoD818]

talagang naka-bold pa ha? 

tyr narnia or lalaland caps. it can magically transform the sound of your amp. 

nililinaw ko lang brader... 


pang pantaserye yan ah... 

saan meron nyan?

ganyan yata gamit ni enteng kabisote galing sa kaharian ni ina magenta... 





ang gulo gulo niyo serious si qguy! 

[markcrenz]

eto serious at related: ano nagyayari sa caps habang naluluma: tumataas o bumababa ang capacitance? other changes in parameters?

[JojoD818]

eto serious at related: ano nagyayari sa caps habang naluluma: tumataas o bumababa ang capacitance? other changes in parameters?

in my experience bumababa siya roughly mga less 5% of the published capacitance. also, they usually form at their operating voltages, for example you use a 63V rated cap to operate at 50V only, over time the cap "forms" to this operating voltage, so if you will increase the voltage it is a good practice to "reform" first.

old/vintage/unused equipments should be slowly reformed first or kaboom.

tony has posted here a reforming gear many moons ago...

if you expect a high frequency/rate of ripple (like those with SMPS), choose caps wisely to give the best electrical performance and handle the ripple current. Ripple can cause heat and kill the caps too.

HTH

[qguy]

Thanks I think will stick with ELNA as these were the ones installed in the amp and want to keep it original.

Try RS or Element14 bro...

In terms of electrical performance, you could also look at Panasonic FS and FM series.

Happy hunting.

[markcrenz]

in my experience bumababa siya roughly mga less 5% of the published capacitance.

baka naman buo pa yan kung 5% lang. within tolerance pa.

found a few old cheap caps from crossover networks. ung mga 4.7 more than 5 na, 3.3s read around 4, while the 2.2s reached almost 3. actual values averaged 50% above printed values. guess that answers my question. pero parang may mali. kasi kung pataas sya pag naluma, why do old ecaps make amps sound bad? 

[ATJr.]

ecaps are notorious for their cap tolerance......i would avoid them in ac coupling and timing circuits if i could...

[ATJr.]

baka naman buo pa yan kung 5% lang. within tolerance pa.

found a few old cheap caps from crossover networks. ung mga 4.7 more than 5 na, 3.3s read around 4, while the 2.2s reached almost 3. actual values averaged 50% above printed values. guess that answers my question. pero parang may mali. kasi kung pataas sya pag naluma, why do old ecaps make amps sound bad? 

my first diy ss amp, an sx-770 clone used all ecaps in the signal path and to my recollection they really rock.....

i guess as they age they get into trouble....so films are better in this regard....

[audiojunkie]

dahil CAPS na rin ang usapan pwede ko seguro itanong ito dito....
Ano po ba ang maximum age ng caps na kailangan ng palitan kahit working condition pa? particularly, sa power amp output board.

balak ko kasi e-recap ang aking 15+ years na power amp, rubycon ang naka-install sa ngayon. Ano po ba match na replacement? TIA

[ATJr.]

10 years is just about right imho...depending on use....the thing with ecaps is that they have these acqeous liquids, mostly glycols, inside, and the metal to rubber seals can not be expected to hold on for-ever, so that dry-ups are almost always inevitable...

standards are 85* and 105*C ratings, i always choose the latter....

and i do not subscribe to the belief that this brand x is better than brand y......DA and DF are good figures of merits, they are found on datasheets anyway....

[qguy]

15 years,..should be ok, unless tinakpan yung top cover.hehehe
yung recap ko na receiver, 1976 model.

dahil CAPS na rin ang usapan pwede ko seguro itanong ito dito....
Ano po ba ang maximum age ng caps na kailangan ng palitan kahit working condition pa? particularly, sa power amp output board.

balak ko kasi e-recap ang aking 15+ years na power amp, rubycon ang naka-install sa ngayon. Ano po ba match na replacement? TIA

[qguy]

yung Nichicon, are these available sa Deeco ?, I was advised to use this brand. Any other brand na reliable just in case these are not avaialbe

my parts list , how much kaya abutin ito

Protection Circuit      
      
2   0.22   25v/50vUp
2   470   6.3v
      
1   2.2   50v
      
1   47   50v
      
      
Qty   Capacitance   Voltage Rating
Power Supply Circuit A      
      
2   220   80v/100v
2   47   16v
      
2   47   35V/50v
      
1   10   35v
1   1   50v
1   100   35v
1   220   25v
      
2   47   10v
1   100   25v
      
1   2.2   50v
      
1   220   16v
      
      
Qty   Capacitance   Voltage Rating
Power Supply Circuit B      
      
1   2200   25v
      
2   470   80v/100v

[audiojunkie]

Thanks for the fast response....

10 years is just about right imho...depending on use....the thing with ecaps is that they have these acqeous liquids, mostly glycols, inside, and the metal to rubber seals can not be expected to hold on for-ever, so that dry-ups are almost always inevitable...

standards are 85* and 105*C ratings, i always choose the latter....

and i do not subscribe to the belief that this brand x is better than brand y......DA and DF are good figures of merits, they are found on datasheets anyway....

the caps mentioned are rated 100uf/100v, 100uf/25v & 10uf/25v...

15 years,..should be ok, unless tinakpan yung top cover.hehehe
yung recap ko na receiver, 1976 model.

still working pa naman... I'm thinking that it will improve the present performance once it's recapped or will sound just the same....  

[JojoD818]

baka naman buo pa yan kung 5% lang. within tolerance pa.

found a few old cheap caps from crossover networks. ung mga 4.7 more than 5 na, 3.3s read around 4, while the 2.2s reached almost 3. actual values averaged 50% above printed values. guess that answers my question. pero parang may mali. kasi kung pataas sya pag naluma, why do old ecaps make amps sound bad? 

that's for ecaps sir, pero like I said ymmv and it depends on a lot of things like temperature. once thing is for sure, ecaps do age.

[JojoD818]

ecaps are notorious for their cap tolerance......i would avoid them in ac coupling and timing circuits if i could...

a bit OT but I would agree a million times about not using ecaps in timing circuits. I always use tantalum types but if I can avoid them all together I'd rather use a crystal na lang...

[odyopayl]

a bit OT but I would agree a million times about not using ecaps in timing circuits. I always use tantalum types but if I can avoid them all together I'd rather use a crystal na lang...

+1

[rascal101]

and i do not subscribe to the belief that this brand x is better than brand y......DA and DF are good figures of merits, they are found on datasheets anyway....

I believe you are aware of the incoming qualification of parts from various vendors to be used in a project eg power supply, amplifier etc. And that this process takes quite some time. Numerous parameters are tested and compared with other vendors.

Based on experience, no two vendors of similar components have exactly the same electrical performance. I believe you are also aware of this. Based on these, one can readily tabulate the manufacturing process + component test measurements + design application performance and assess brand x or brand y performance.

As such, it is incorrect to say that "and i do not subscribe to the belief that this brand x is better than brand y" because most of the time a certain brand will be better than the other brand for a certain component. Furthermore for a circuit code in the BOM, there is only one prime part and the rest ... sub-parts.

From this an approved vendor list and hierarchy in purchasing is made on various components. This becomes the protocol for buyers when purchasing components.

[ATJr.]

commercial products are made with profit in mind......

the engineer/designers determine the quality of the parts they are looking for based on a certain budget......

it is up for the purchasing department to source out vendors for the parts chosen.....

so yes, in this regard brand x can be  better than brand y in terms of cost......

besides i do not listen to the sound of capacitors......i always listen to the sound of the music....if i like what i hear.....i do not attribute that to the capacitor.....i attribute that to the  chain as a whole and not to an insignificant part....

[markcrenz]

Based on experience, no two vendors of similar components have exactly the same electrical performance. I believe you are also aware of this. Based on these, one can readily tabulate the manufacturing process + component test measurements + design application performance and assess brand x or brand y performance.

are we talking space shuttle parts here?

[rascal101]

are we talking space shuttle parts here?

What is your point? This is the standard in parts selection in a typical company - Supplier Engineering, Component Engineering and Design Engineering departments are the main groups involved in parts selection and testing. Maybe you are not aware of this.

Supplier Engineering visit the factory of the vendor and to perform audit based on compliance to standards.
Component Engineering tests the parts based on their published performance (datasheet).
Design Engineering tests the parts on the actual circuit or product used.

[rascal101]

commercial products are made with profit in mind......

the engineer/designers determine the quality of the parts they are looking for based on a certain budget......

it is up for the purchasing department to source out vendors for the parts chosen.....

so yes, in this regard brand x can be getter than brand y in terms of cost......

besides i do not listen to the sound of capacitors......i always listen to the sound of the music....if i like what i hear.....i do not attribute that to the capacitor.....i attribute that to the  chain as a whole and not to an insignificant part....

My post is based on engineering. Since no two components are exactly the same their electrical performance differs in actual application. Correspondingly, their contribution to the output also differs. If used in a critical part of the circuit then it may have significant effect on the output. However, whether this can be significant or insignificant in the subjective viewpoint, I leave it to you.

[Nelson de Leon]

commercial products are made with profit in mind......

the engineer/designers determine the quality of the parts they are looking for based on a certain budget......

it is up for the purchasing department to source out vendors for the parts chosen.....

so yes, in this regard brand x can be getter than brand y in terms of cost......

besides i do not listen to the sound of capacitors......i always listen to the sound of the music....if i like what i hear.....i do not attribute that to the capacitor.....i attribute that to the  chain as a whole and not to an insignificant part....

Can a change in capacitor alter the sound reproduced (either better or worse)? Like higher or lower values? Different brands with different performance?

[rascal101]

Bigyan natin ng halimbawa iyung pagpili ng piyesa sa isang ordinaryong nag D DIY ...

Bisita sa Alexan, Deeco at iba't ibang shop para malaman ang kalakalan at magtanong tanong sa kaibigan o internet kung maayos ba ang mga itong tindahan -> Supplier Engineering

Bumili ng piyesa at at tignan kung mukhang ok sa anyo o kung meron mga gamit pang testing, i-testing kung pasado ba -> Component Engineering

Gamitin ang piyesa sa sirketo o sa produkto para ma-testing kung ok -> Design Engineering

Wala naman rocket science dito ah.

[JojoD818]

Can a change in capacitor alter the sound reproduced (either better or worse)?

It depends.

Like higher or lower values?

Again, it depends.

Example #1:

Input cap. Change it to lower values and depending on the input impedance, you also alter the low end frequency response. Change it to a too high a value and you end up with a lot of output offsets and what not.

Example #2:

PSU Supply Filter. Change it to a lower value and ripple will increase. Change it to a too high a value and the Law of Diminishing returns will kick you in the butt, seriously, there is no limit as to how much you want to use but it's all for nothing once you exceed a certain limit.


So in essence, it really depends on the function of the cap and where it is used in the circuit. This is where all the laughter comes from when you read someone changing a cap and says magical things about it without even understanding what the heck it's function is.

Example #3:

Ceramic capacitors. Any self respecting designer would not use a ceramic cap as a miller compensation cap or a feedback cap. You will read all sorts of bad things about ceramic caps from audiophiles and airbags but why in the world do those cap manufacturers still make them?

Because they are very good at filtering high frequency harmonics.

Now enter an audiophile airbag DIYer who sees those fugly ceramic caps and starts ordering online Wima and other film caps and readies his soldering iron. Geez I crack myself up.

Different brands with different performance?

Depends on the datasheet.

[rascal101]

so yes, in this regard brand x can be getter than brand y in terms of cost......

Not only on cost but also in electrical performance.

[rascal101]

Not all ceramic capacitors are bad. NPO/COG ceramic capacitors are good. Many have no problem using NPO/COG ceramic capacitors in feedback compensation and clock circuits. I do not know why other designers would not use this capacitor in feedback compensation.

Maybe those orange or brown colored ceramic capacitors like X7R or Y5P (specially Y5P). These are not that good. So it maybe is a good idea to have them replaced.

[Nelson de Leon]

It depends.

Again, it depends.

Example #1:

Input cap. Change it to lower values and depending on the input impedance, you also alter the low end frequency response. Change it to a too high a value and you end up with a lot of output offsets and what not.

Example #2:

PSU Supply Filter. Change it to a lower value and ripple will increase. Change it to a too high a value and the Law of Diminishing returns will kick you in the butt, seriously, there is no limit as to how much you want to use but it's all for nothing once you exceed a certain limit.

So in essence, it really depends on the function of the cap and where it is used in the circuit. This is where all the laughter comes from when you read someone changing a cap and says magical things about it without even understanding what the heck it's function is.

Example #3:

Ceramic capacitors. Any self respecting designer would not use a ceramic cap as a miller compensation cap or a feedback cap. You will read all sorts of bad things about ceramic caps from audiophiles and airbags but why in the world do those cap manufacturers still make them?

Because they are very good at filtering high frequency harmonics.

Now enter an audiophile airbag DIYer who sees those fugly ceramic caps and starts ordering online Wima and other film caps and readies his soldering iron. Geez I crack myself up.

Depends on the datasheet.

  At least it's clear that there is a possibility ng change in sonic signature.