Topic: Bypass capacitors in the power supply

[rascal101]

Ito ay para ... alam niyo na kung sino kayo ...

Kung iniisip ninyo na zero resistance iyung ideal voltage source at infinite iyung resistance ng
current source (ibig sabihin lumilihis na kayo sa mga original na pi-nost ninyo at baka iba rin
kasi iyung inisip ninyo sa sinulat ninyo), ang tanong ko ay ganito.

- Paano kung zero resistance ang voltage source? Oo, iyung series resistance niya puwede
maging zero gaya ng nasabi ninyo kamakailan - agree ako dito. Pero tandaan natin V = I x R.
Puwede bang maging zero ang voltage sa voltage source?

- Paano magiging current source kung infinite ang kanyang resistance? Paano kung naglagay
ako ng infinite resistance na load? Saan ngayon pupunta ang kuryente galing sa current source?
Humihingi ang load pero ayaw magbigay ng current iyung current source?

Sa totoo lang kaya ako sumagot dito sa thread na ito dahil napansin ko lang na parang wala ng
kinakakatakutan isa sa inyo. Palibhasa siguro may backer siya kaya kahit anong i-post okay
lang. Lagi nga niya sinasabi "Thanks for the confirmation" ... Ganoon naman ang kalakaran ninyo
hindi ba? Isa susulpot kapag sumagot ang isa. Hindi kaya dahil sa pursyento sa sales? Haaa!!!!
Eh kung ganoon, puwede bang sama na rin ako ... good boy na ako sa susunod ...

Tungkol naman sa tunog lalo na sa mga mahilig magkalikot tulad natin ... para hindi OT ...

Kung sa pagkakalikot ay wala kayong narinig na improvement eh di sabihin ninyo paulit ulit ...
wala kasing tunog ang capacitors ... este bypass capacitors pala. Wala naman problema iyon basta
kaya niyong panagutan mga sinabi ninyo. Hindi naman lahat tayo focus sa magandang tunog ...
... lalo ako kasi ... guilty as charged ako sa mga graphs, plots at anu ano pa ... wala ring tunog ang
mga ito ... hehehe
 

[qguy]

I have read that the bypass capacitors is placed to prevent some high frequencies from entering the system in case that there is..

I think this answers why some hear a difference and some dont, if you place a bypass capacitor and it improves the sound then, you would say it makes a difference. Now if your amp system does not have those issues and you place a bypass capacitor, you would say that putting bypass capacitors is useless, so basically its system dependent.  This also answers why some amplifers has it and some dont from the same manufacturer.

[ATJr.]

If you keep your mind sufficiently open, people will throw a lot of rubbish into it.
    --William Orton

yun lang! 

that is also true and the sad part is when people throwing rubbish doesn't even know.....

the good news is that there is the internet to verify such things......

but even then you really have to discern.....

[ATJr.]

Ito ay para ... alam niyo na kung sino kayo ...

Kung iniisip ninyo na zero resistance iyung ideal voltage source at infinite iyung resistance ng
current source (ibig sabihin lumilihis na kayo sa mga original na pi-nost ninyo at baka iba rin
kasi iyung inisip ninyo sa sinulat ninyo), ang tanong ko ay ganito.

- Paano kung zero resistance ang voltage source? Oo, iyung series resistance niya puwede
maging zero gaya ng nasabi ninyo kamakailan - agree ako dito. Pero tandaan natin V = I x R.
Puwede bang maging zero ang voltage sa voltage source?

- Paano magiging current source kung infinite ang kanyang resistance? Paano kung naglagay
ako ng infinite resistance na load? Saan ngayon pupunta ang kuryente galing sa current source?
Humihingi ang load pero ayaw magbigay ng current iyung current source?

Sa totoo lang kaya ako sumagot dito sa thread na ito dahil napansin ko lang na parang wala ng
kinakakatakutan isa sa inyo. Palibhasa siguro may backer siya kaya kahit anong i-post okay
lang. Lagi nga niya sinasabi "Thanks for the confirmation" ... Ganoon naman ang kalakaran ninyo
hindi ba? Isa susulpot kapag sumagot ang isa. Hindi kaya dahil sa pursyento sa sales? Haaa!!!!
Eh kung ganoon, puwede bang sama na rin ako ... good boy na ako sa susunod ...

Tungkol naman sa tunog lalo na sa mga mahilig magkalikot tulad natin ... para hindi OT ...

Kung sa pagkakalikot ay wala kayong narinig na improvement eh di sabihin ninyo paulit ulit ...
wala kasing tunog ang capacitors ... este bypass capacitors pala. Wala naman problema iyon basta
kaya niyong panagutan mga sinabi ninyo. Hindi naman lahat tayo focus sa magandang tunog ...
... lalo ako kasi ... guilty as charged ako sa mga graphs, plots at anu ano pa ... wala ring tunog ang
mga ito ... hehehe

did it ever occur to you that you are wrong? we are trying to educate you, absent ka yata nung maglecture tungkol sa voltage sources at current sources,  i have given you the links, i suggest you read it and learn.....

[rascal101]

Did it ever occur to you that not everything is discussed in the internet? Hindi ibig sabihin na naglagay ka ng link ay tama lahat. Kung mali ako sumabog na mga gawa ko kasi nga mali ako. Suggest ko intindihin mo ang ibig sabihin ng theorem at law. Another suggestion (tutal may bench set-up ka naman), verify everything at bench.

Please stop your linking to the internet. Why don't you speak from your experience? You have lots of it. Even much more than me.

[ATJr.]

Did it ever occur to you that not everything is discussed in the internet? Hindi ibig sabihin na naglagay ka ng link ay tama lahat. Kung mali ako sumabog na mga gawa ko kasi nga mali ako. Suggest ko intindihin mo ang ibig sabihin ng theorem at law. Another suggestion (tutal may bench set-up ka naman), verify everything at bench.

Please stop your linking to the internet. Why don't you speak from your experience? You have lots of it. Even much more than me.

eh ako na nga nagsasabi di ka matinag, baka sakali kung ibang source.....
http://www.google.com.ph/search?q=Did+it+ever+occur+to+you+that+not+everything+is+discussed+in+the+internet%3F&sugexp=chrome,mod=9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[JojoD818]

Sa totoo lang kaya ako sumagot dito sa thread na ito dahil napansin ko lang na parang wala ng
kinakakatakutan isa sa inyo. Palibhasa siguro may backer siya kaya kahit anong i-post okay
lang. Lagi nga niya sinasabi "Thanks for the confirmation" ... Ganoon naman ang kalakaran ninyo
hindi ba? Isa susulpot kapag sumagot ang isa. Hindi kaya dahil sa pursyento sa sales? Haaa!!!!
Eh kung ganoon, puwede bang sama na rin ako ... good boy na ako sa susunod ...

Wag naman ganun rascal, kaya lang siguro sumusulpot kasi interesante dun sa naka post and it so happens that it's a technical one and sure enough technical people will post diba?

Bakit kailangan matakot? May ginagawa ba tayo masama? 

[ATJr.]

ganito na lang rascal, sa diyaudio ka magpost ng mga pino-post mo dito, ng magkaalaman na...

[ATJr.]

posted this sa kabilang forum, baka makatulong....

for those technically inclined, this is the bible of capacitors.....http://my.execpc.com/~endlr/index.html

[rascal101]

You say I am rubbish so you want to educate me. You said the same thing when we were discussing the current after the rectifier diode before the bulk capacitor on the linear power supply. Then much later posted a similar graph as the previous one I posted.

Please take a good look at yourself. Are you really trying to educate? Or are you the one being educated? You build things. This is much like the people I work here in China yet some of these people have no engineering background. But kudos to these people, they really know how to build good power supplies - well they know how to copy good power supplies. You are way way way much better than these guys. Please act like one. If you want to educate, please be kind enough to explain through thoughtful words. One from experience not through links.

[rascal101]

ganito na lang rascal, sa diyaudio ka magpost ng mga pino-post mo dito, ng magkaalaman na...

Maglagay ka ng thread at mag re reply ako ng ganito.

[rascal101]

Wag naman ganun rascal, kaya lang siguro sumusulpot kasi interesante dun sa naka post and it so happens that it's a technical one and sure enough technical people will post diba?

Bakit kailangan matakot? May ginagawa ba tayo masama? 

May pattern kasi Sir. Alam mo naman iyun hindi ba

[ATJr.]

You say I am rubbish so you want to educate me. You said the same thing when we were discussing the current after the rectifier diode before the bulk capacitor on the linear power supply. Then much later posted a similar graph as the previous one I posted.

Please take a good look at yourself. Are you really trying to educate? Or are you the one being educated? You build things. This is much like the people I work here in China yet some of these people have no engineering background. But kudos to these people, they really know how to build good power supplies - well they know how to copy good power supplies. You are way way way much better than these guys. Please act like one. If you want to educate, please be kind enough to explain through thoughtful words. One from experience not through links.

now you are putting words in my mouth...bad yan....

[rascal101]

I never said anything bad against you. I have always thought of you as someone to look up to. I do not understand your comment.

Para hindi OT ...

Bypass capacitors are generally good specially if they are polyester and polypropelene capacitors. I have personally not tried ceramic COG/NPO and Silver Mica capacitors as bypass capacitors. However, monreq has tried Silver Mica and I think it was so-so. Some gains and some losses. One range of frequency is good and other frequency not so. So I guess it depends. Kung medyo dull iyung tunog ng amplifier puwede siguro Silver Mica.

[ATJr.]

I never said anything bad against you. I have always thought of you as someone to look up to. I do not understand your comment.

Para hindi OT ...

Bypass capacitors are generally good specially if they are polyester and polypropelene capacitors. I have personally not tried ceramic COG/NPO and Silver Mica capacitors as bypass capacitors. However, monreq has tried Silver Mica and I think it was so-so. Some gains and some losses. One range of frequency is good and other frequency not so. So I guess it depends. Kung medyo dull iyung tunog ng amplifier puwede siguro Silver Mica.

me problema ka nga.....at hindi kita matutulungan....

[rascal101]

Mag post ka na sa diyaudio.

Hindi naman ako humihingi ng tulong sa iyo kaya okay lang. Itigil na natin ito kasi OT na tayo.

Additional info 14:51 ... I have posted in diyaudio

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/219634-voltage-sources-current sources.html#post3162977

Let's take it from there.

[ATJr.]

I have read that the bypass capacitors is placed to prevent some high frequencies from entering the system in case that there is..

I think this answers why some hear a difference and some dont, if you place a bypass capacitor and it improves the sound then, you would say it makes a difference. Now if your amp system does not have those issues and you place a bypass capacitor, you would say that putting bypass capacitors is useless, so basically its system dependent.  This also answers why some amplifers has it and some dont from the same manufacturer.

ecaps are known to have higher esr at higher frequencies, therefore film type caps are used to make up for the increasing esr as frequency increases........film caps are better in terms of esr at the higher frequencies.....

this is my super leach amp, it uses 56000ufd/100vdc computer grade filter caps bypassed with a rifa 2.2ufd/250volt film cap.....this is more than 20 years old now and will be refurbished soon....this amp is capable of 250watts per channel into 8ohms, both channel driven...







esr increases as the voltage rating of the ecap is approached, that is why some use the caps at 80% of its voltage rating, say a cap is rated 100vdc working, so rectified voltage of 80volts is applied to the cap....

another technique is to use several cans in parallel instead of just one, several small caps will have their esr's paralleled, better imho....

[odyopayl]

Been reading (understanding is another thing) on Bypass capacitors in the power supply section of an amplifier. Anyone done this here and what were the effect

BTT:
qguy, to bypass caps in the power supply might have an advantage or no effect at all. Capacitors lowers the ripple and bypass caps makes the ripple smooth.  I don't want to discuss this here because I might be misinterpreted, if you have a chance to come here at Pampanga I will show you the effect of bypass caps using oscilloscope in different demand load like our Amplifier.

[odyopayl]

another technique is to use several cans in parallel instead of just one, several small caps will have their esr's paralleled, better imho...

+1 here. Bigger capacitors sometimes too slow to react.

[shrek7]

most of the time when I tried putting bypass caps I believe I gain something, such as clarity/transparency. bass seems to lessen, but comes back after 40 hours or so. sometimes the sound gets more mid to high focus and bass becomes tighter or sometimes lesser (nawawala yung gapang). so i believe most of the people who posted here believes that putting a bypass capacitor is better than putting nothing at all, the next question is, "what should be the value of the bypass capacitor?" is there a computation for this? some people put 1% of the value of the ecap to be bypassed.so whats the standard?  cge na, baka mali ang akala ko, nangati tuloy ang kamay ko! 

[rascal101]

most of the time I try putting bypass caps I believe I gain something, such as clarity/transparency. bass seems to lessen, but comes back after 40 hours or so. sometimes the sound gets more mid to high focus and bass becomes tighter or sometimes lesser (nawawala yung gapang). so i believe most of the people who posted here believes that putting a bypass capacitor is better than putting nothing at all, the next question is, "what should be the value of the bypass capacitor?" is there a computation for this? some people put 1% of the value of the ecap to be bypassed.so whats the standard?  cge na, baka mali ang akala ko, nangati tuloy ang kamay ko! 

Sa akin experience lang ito so huwag niyo akong sisihin kong hindi epektibo sa inyo.

Kung ano man ang value ng bulk capacitor i-divide mo ng 720. So, kung ang bulk capacitor ay 10,000uF ang bypass capacitor ay 13.95uF o 15uF.

[shrek7]

Sa akin experience lang ito so huwag niyo akong sisihin kong hindi epektibo sa inyo.

Kung ano man ang value ng bulk capacitor i-divide mo ng 720. So, kung ang bulk capacitor ay 10,000uF ang bypass capacitor ay 13.95uF o 15uF.

what if i have 10x1500uf panasonic fm caps  on my power supply in parallel, paano ang value ng bypass? Kailangan ba per cap ang bypass or isang bypass cap lang para na sa buong value ng lahat ng caps?

[shrek7]

ecaps are known to have higher esr at higher frequencies, therefore film type caps are used to make up for the increasing esr as frequency increases........film caps are better in terms of esr at the higher frequencies.....

this is my super leach amp, it uses 56000ufd/100vdc computer grade filter caps bypassed with a rifa 2.2ufd/250volt film cap.....this is more than 20 years old now and will be refurbished soon....this amp is capable of 250watts per channel into 8ohms, both channel driven...







esr increases as the voltage rating of the ecap is approached, that is why some use the caps at 80% of its voltage rating, say a cap is rated 100vdc working, so rectified voltage of 80volts is applied to the cap....

another technique is to use several cans in parallel instead of just one, several small caps will have their esr's paralleled, better imho....

nice amp!!! how do you compute for the value of your bypass caps? Tsaka mukhang may kasama pa na resistor in parallel din, how do you compute for the value of your resistor? Sana di mo na pinost yung pix, nangati tuloy ang kamay ko na magkalikot! Hehehe! TIA

[rascal101]

what if i have 10x1500uf panasonic fm caps  on my power supply in parallel, paano ang value ng bypass? Kailangan ba per cap ang bypass or isang bypass cap lang para na sa buong value ng lahat ng caps?

Mas maganda kung isa isa mo silang lagyan.

[ATJr.]

nice amp!!! how do you compute for the value of your bypass caps? Tsaka mukhang may kasama pa na resistor in parallel din, how do you compute for the value of your resistor? Sana di mo na pinost yung pix, nangati tuloy ang kamay ko na magkalikot! Hehehe! TIA

the resistors are bleeders, those resistors discharge the caps on power down....to assign values to them i need to decide what discharged current i want.....so that is is a simple V/I or owhm's law.....

i built this amp at a time when bypass were in fashion.......i used caps that i had on hand......i do not know of any standard with respect to bypass caps.....hindi na rin uso ngayon yan, unlike 20 years ago...

i do not use bypass caps in my tube amps......

today's circuits like the gainclones have very high PSRR so that bypassing is not really needed.....circuit designs that are of high PSRR does not benefit from bypass...

[ATJr.]

+1 here. Bigger capacitors sometimes too slow to react.

this is because of the impedances and the time constants formed because of that, the workaround is to use bigger traffos as these bigger traffos will have lower impedances and time constants will be lower....bibilis na ulit...

[qguy]

2.2 uf seems to be common.
They were in fashion 20 years ago because ?

qguy SS amp is 36 years old with two  22,000 uf caps, I willl  put 2.2 uf film caps at 250 volts...unless someone tells me it will explode 

i built this amp at a time when bypass were in fashion.......i used caps that i had on hand......i do not know of any standard with respect to bypass caps.....hindi na rin uso ngayon yan, unlike 20 years ago...

[ATJr.]

Mag post ka na sa diyaudio.

Hindi naman ako humihingi ng tulong sa iyo kaya okay lang. Itigil na natin ito kasi OT na tayo.

Additional info 14:51 ... I have posted in diyaudio

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/219634-voltage-sources-current sources.html#post3162977

Let's take it from there.

post not found daw....

[ATJr.]

2.2 uf seems to be common.
They were in fashion 20 years ago because ?

qguy SS amp is 36 years old with two  22,000 uf caps, I willl  put 2.2 uf film caps at 250 volts...unless someone tells me it will explode 

current bypass wisdom says you will get better result if you bypass your ecaps in the power amp boards instead....

bypassing your main filter caps while may not do harm is neither guaranteed to bring benefits....

values from 0.1uf to 1.0uf can be used as bypass on your power amp mainboards....

[rascal101]

post not found daw....

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