Author Topic: Bypass capacitors in the power supply  (Read 31380 times)

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Offline odyopayl

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #60 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 06:51 PM »
Brod Rascal and Brod Tony T both of you are respectable Audio Geeks here, sometimes Electronics are like Religion, we have all with different interpretations somehow, we are all correct.
qguy you are the author of this thread ;D you are making a war here!
Peace Brothers! Common! Stop this Technical Wars!  :'(
FGS! qguy is just asking for a Bypass Caps hehehehehehehehe ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
odyopayl
octaver (wiredstate)

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #61 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 06:56 PM »
electronics is an exact science....people create religions.....i will post back whenever i see technical half-truths are posted..........nothing personal..........baka maniwala kasi ang mga newbies....... ;D ;)

i have been personally attacked in this thread, pero hindi ko pinatulan......what matters to me is to get the facts straight.....when the truth is being attacked, you don't fight back by personally attacking the messenger....you fight back with the truth.....

Ang ideal voltage source ay infinite impedance. Ang ideal current source ay zero impedance. Ang power supply at battery ay mga voltage source.

paniniwalaan ba nitin ito? susunugin ko na ba ang mga electronics books ko?
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2012 at 08:15 PM by TonyT »
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Offline qguy

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #62 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 07:27 PM »
War ??? nah

 Were all friends here in pinoydvd, we have different views and beliefs and at the end of the day, each and everyones goal here  is to help each other out...to find the ultimate bypass capacitor ..film, polypropolene or electrolytic , let the debate begin !!!  ;D


qguy you are the author of this thread ;D you are making a war here!

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #63 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 08:14 PM »

another technique is to use several cans in parallel instead of just one, several small caps will have their esr's paralleled, better imho....

this is a Bob Carver trademark in his earlier power amps, great power amps imho. though soft start is mandatory in his designs.


Offline ATJr.

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #64 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 08:19 PM »
yes, and in addition, tall and thin diameter ecaps are preffered over short and thick diameter ecaps.... ;D
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Offline JojoD818

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #65 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 08:20 PM »

today's circuits like the gainclones have very high PSRR so that bypassing is not really needed.....circuit designs that are of high PSRR does not benefit from bypass...


Not just the gainclones, even DA's Honey Badger has inherited the good virtues of PSRR with the aid of modern cascodes and current mirrors. It's nothing new, in fact it's merely a collection of the best circuit implementations and is (imho) a marvel in it's own right.

Though Pete insists putting smallish film caps in the 0.1uf-0.22uf range as on-board bypass.


Offline ATJr.

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #66 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 08:24 PM »
let us not forget, the Aikido tube preamp also has higher PSRR when compared to a simple common cathode amp....same as with tube LTP's......
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Offline JojoD818

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #67 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 08:28 PM »
War ??? nah

 Were all friends here in pinoydvd, we have different views and beliefs and at the end of the day, each and everyones goal here  is to help each other out...to find the ultimate bypass capacitor ..film, polypropolene or electrolytic , let the debate begin !!!  ;D


To ask which is the ultimate bypass capacitor is like Bush saying that there are WMDs in Iraq.  ::)

It's a never ending debate, both technically and subjectively. Points of views differ dramatically and there is just no way to quantify it and convert it into layman's terms. Formulas and equations are very good on paper, but the other camp will argue otherwise. ;D

I think the best way to help you find what you seek is to truly learn the electrical behaviors and characteristics of capacitors and then from there, make a decision for yourself. ;)


Offline geriboy

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Offline JojoD818

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #69 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 08:34 PM »
let us not forget, the Aikido tube preamp also has higher PSRR when compared to a simple common cathode amp....same as with tube LTP's......


oh yeah, and it was primarily designed to battle PSRR in the first place. a very clever way JB thought of was to sample the psu noise then inject it back inverted to the lower tube...

just like the basic principle of the martial art Aikido where you use your opponents energy and send it back to them while not consuming any of your own energy...  ;D

the simple common cathode otoh would improve with ccs and led biasing, I got Stuart to thank for that...  :)

Offline JojoD818

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Offline rascal101

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #71 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 09:03 PM »
electronics is an exact science....people create religions.....i will post back whenever i see technical half-truths are posted..........nothing personal..........baka maniwala kasi ang mga newbies....... ;D ;)

i have been personally attacked in this thread, pero hindi ko pinatulan......what matters to me is to get the facts straight.....when the truth is being attacked, you don't fight back by personally attacking the messenger....you fight back with the truth.....

paniniwalaan ba nitin ito? susunugin ko na ba ang mga electronics books ko?

The problem with you is when you see things like this you say rubbish and you put links. As I said if you want to educate you should say thoughtful things as you are the more experienced. You can check the responses in diyaudio. This is what I am talking about. Act like one who is more experienced mentoring his students not like someone telling people fetch this and fetch that.

The reason I said infinite impedance is because across the voltage source itself there is no current. Furthermore I have thought that voltage sources consists of plates. And plates are not shorted but rather open.
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2012 at 09:09 PM by rascal101 »

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #72 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 09:09 PM »
The problem with you is when you see things like this you say rubbish and you put links. As I said if you want to educate you should say thoughtful things as you are the more experienced. You can check the responses in diyaudio. This is what I am talking about.

The reason I said infinite impedance is because across the voltage source itself there is no current. Furthermore I have thought that voltage sources consists of plates. And plates are not shorted but rather open.


It's very simple, that's because you were (admit it or not) wrongly applying the principles of Ohm's Law to the voltage source itself when it is only applicable to the series resistance in an ideal voltage source.

Offline rascal101

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #73 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 09:10 PM »
Yes. That is correct. I admit it. Your response above benefits other people.

I like that you go through posts line by line unlike some people here who like issuing blanket replies.
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2012 at 09:27 PM by rascal101 »

Offline rascal101

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #74 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 09:16 PM »
War ??? nah

 Were all friends here in pinoydvd, we have different views and beliefs and at the end of the day, each and everyones goal here  is to help each other out...to find the ultimate bypass capacitor ..film, polypropolene or electrolytic , let the debate begin !!!  ;D

Personally, I would go with polypropelene.

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #75 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 09:40 PM »
Yes. That is correct. I admit it. Your response above benefits other people.

I like that you go through posts line by line unlike some people here who like issuing blanket replies.


Great! Don't worry about it, it happens to all of us.

Ganyan lang talaga si Tony, he's a swell guy naman.

Let's all get along and give qguy a lot to think about capacitors.  :)

Offline rascal101

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #76 on: Sep 13, 2012 at 09:50 PM »

Great! Don't worry about it, it happens to all of us.

Ganyan lang talaga si Tony, he's a swell guy naman.

Let's all get along and give qguy a lot to think about capacitors.  :)

Tama ka Sir  kaya sumagot ako ng polypropelene kasi sa pag e experiment ko mas well balanced in terms of tunog and electrical performance mga ito.
« Last Edit: Sep 14, 2012 at 05:06 AM by rascal101 »

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #77 on: Sep 14, 2012 at 07:15 AM »
The problem with you is when you see things like this you say rubbish and you put links. As I said if you want to educate you should say thoughtful things as you are the more experienced. You can check the responses in diyaudio. This is what I am talking about. Act like one who is more experienced mentoring his students not like someone telling people fetch this and fetch that.

The reason I said infinite impedance is because across the voltage source itself there is no current. Furthermore I have thought that voltage sources consists of plates. And plates are not shorted but rather open.

where in my post did i mention the word "rubbish"? that is the problem with you, when pointing out your mistakes, instead of taking it positively, you go on personally attacking me....markrenz is way much better than you in this regard....

your posting in diyaudio clearly shows your ignorance of the basic priciples.....high school physics pa lang tinuturo na yan......if you can admit that there, why can't you admit the same here?

stop posting your technical mambo jambles, you sound more like a comedian than a techie........ :D :D :D
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Offline qguy

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #78 on: Sep 14, 2012 at 07:23 AM »
Nose bleed na ako, I will BYPASS this thread  ;D  Teka so whats the advantage of Polypropolene vs Film ?

Let's all get along and give qguy a lot to think about capacitors.  :)

Offline ATJr.

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That's OK, you can like or dislike anything you choose. That's the wonderful thing about the freedom

Offline rascal101

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #80 on: Sep 14, 2012 at 08:09 AM »
where in my post did i mention the word "rubbish"? that is the problem with you, when pointing out your mistakes, instead of taking it positively, you go on personally attacking me....markrenz is way much better than you in this regard....

your posting in diyaudio clearly shows your ignorance of the basic priciples.....high school physics pa lang tinuturo na yan......if you can admit that there, why can't you admit the same here?

stop posting your technical mambo jambles, you sound more like a comedian than a techie........ :D :D :D

that is also true and the sad part is when people throwing rubbish doesn't even know..... :o

the good news is that there is the internet to verify such things...... :D

but even then you really have to discern..... ;)

High school physics. Patawa ka naman. Ikaw siguro iyung comedian. Inadmit ko na high school physics sa diyaudio??? ... ikaw na rin nagsabi ... you are putting words in my mouth ... bad yan ... since sa iyo galing ito very bad yan ...

O sige na, tumahimik ka na. Dadami pa puting buhok mo. Tama ka. O ayan masaya ka na Professor. Damihan mo mga links mo para matuto ako. Wala kasi akong google eh.

Pag-usapan na lang natin iyung mga bypass capacitors. Type ko iyung polypropelene kasi maganda tumunog.
« Last Edit: Sep 14, 2012 at 08:42 AM by rascal101 »

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #81 on: Sep 14, 2012 at 11:26 AM »
hey guys easy... let's wreak havoc on the technical aspects and not on the person... ;D


everybody be cool now... 8)

Offline ATJr.

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #82 on: Sep 14, 2012 at 12:08 PM »
High school physics. Patawa ka naman. Ikaw siguro iyung comedian. Inadmit ko na high school physics sa diyaudio??? ... ikaw na rin nagsabi ... you are putting words in my mouth ... bad yan ... since sa iyo galing ito very bad yan ...

O sige na, tumahimik ka na. Dadami pa puting buhok mo. Tama ka. O ayan masaya ka na Professor. Damihan mo mga links mo para matuto ako. Wala kasi akong google eh.

Pag-usapan na lang natin iyung mga bypass capacitors. Type ko iyung polypropelene kasi maganda tumunog.

i never mentioned you as being rubbish, not your person, i was reacting to markrenz's post about people throwing rubbish, it does not mean the person himself is the rubbish, but rather the idea is rubbish.....there is big the difference, you have to see this.....i repeat, the idea is the rubbish....not you....

now i see where the problem is, you have serious comprehension problems....... :D ;D ;D
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Offline rascal101

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #83 on: Sep 14, 2012 at 11:02 PM »
For bypass capacitor, I have also tried polystyrene caps from Alexan and Spin Electronics but found it too harsh. So I put polypropene cap in series. The result is the harshness is lessened but the character of the polystyrene remains. Tried same approach with silver mica but their is still harshness. Sibilance is also the predominant issue with polystyrene and silver mica.

Offline monreq

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #84 on: Sep 14, 2012 at 11:40 PM »
Ang napapansin ko lang sa mga circuit design ay pag may dadaanan na mahabang wire/copper trace, saka naglalagay ng bypass cap malapit sa load (yung component na gagamit nung current) to prevent oscillations.

Kung stable naman yung amplifier no need na ng maraming bypass caps. Kahit yung output lang ng linear power supply at power input ng amplifier (end to end ng power supply wires) ang idadagdag mong bypass cap ok na yun. Another gastos at effort lang kung lalagyan mo pa ng iba.

Iilan lang sa mga tweaks ang may significant impact sa sound, at hindi eto yun hehehe...
same principle..+ 1 to you bro.  Also, using the right bypass cap matters a lot.  One example is Wima MKP4 other bypass cap is also oil cap.  I've been using it in poor PSU in DC Cap section.  I am very happy with the results  and others who heard and experienced it. :)
"LEARNING is a NEVER ENDING process.  Only a FOOL will say he already knows everything."

Offline monreq

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #85 on: Sep 14, 2012 at 11:54 PM »
Brod Rascal and Brod Tony T both of you are respectable Audio Geeks here, sometimes Electronics are like Religion, we have all with different interpretations somehow, we are all correct.
qguy you are the author of this thread ;D you are making a war here!
Peace Brothers! Common! Stop this Technical Wars!  :'(
FGS! qguy is just asking for a Bypass Caps hehehehehehehehe ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
+1M. ;)
"LEARNING is a NEVER ENDING process.  Only a FOOL will say he already knows everything."

Offline rascal101

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #86 on: Sep 15, 2012 at 04:51 AM »
Sometimes instead of bypass cap I just put high value resistor in parallel with e-caps. E-caps are really notorious as it takes very long time for them to discharge. Resistors are much faster than small value polyester, polypropelene, polystyrene and silver mica.

Offline Stagea

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #87 on: Sep 15, 2012 at 05:00 AM »
Sometimes instead of bypass cap I just put high value resistor in parallel with e-caps. E-caps are really notorious as it takes very long time for them to discharge. Resistors are much faster than small value polyester, polypropelene, polystyrene and silver mica.

I know that the resistor would help discharge the caps after use. As for its use as a replacement for caps, wouldn't the dissipation ramp with voltage so minutely to be effective in damping ripple?

What I used to do is to put different caps in parallel, with the aim of getting complementary resonance points. This gives a lower effective ESR throughout a wider range of frequencies.
« Last Edit: Sep 15, 2012 at 05:13 AM by Stagea »

Offline rascal101

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #88 on: Sep 15, 2012 at 05:03 AM »
same principle..+ 1 to you bro.  Also, using the right bypass cap matters a lot.  One example is Wima MKP4 other bypass cap is also oil cap.  I've been using it in poor PSU in DC Cap section.  I am very happy with the results  and others who heard and experienced it. :)

Bro paki PM naman ako kung saan mo nakuha Wima MKP4 mo. Kailangan ko i-discharge isang member dito. Hindi marunong intindihin ang salitang tahimik.

Professor let us not argue anymore. Please cool down. My suggestion is for you to give us some of your experiences so we can have better sounding amplifiers.

As I said earlier, resistors are also one way to improve charging and discharge times. I have used this approach many times and it has not failed me.
« Last Edit: Sep 15, 2012 at 05:54 AM by rascal101 »

Offline rascal101

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Re: Bypass capacitors in the power supply
« Reply #89 on: Sep 15, 2012 at 05:07 AM »
I know that the resistor would help discharge the caps after use. As for its use as a replacement for caps, wouldn't the dissipation ramp with voltage so minutely to be effective in damping ripple?

A capacitor would be more effective in damping. The resistor is just to improve slightly the charging and discharging of the e-cap.

Me and monreq used to play with different caps like polypropelene, polystyrene and silver mica. Also we experiment putting them in series then putting these caps in parallel with the e-cap. This approach may work for some that is why I want to mention it here.
« Last Edit: Sep 15, 2012 at 05:58 AM by rascal101 »