Author Topic: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story  (Read 6579 times)

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Offline ABCmotorparts

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Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« on: Nov 10, 2012 at 05:23 AM »
As you all know, I have bought a Samsung UN55ES6500 here in the US,
I was an avid plasma user back in the Philippines, I chose this mainly because
I was quite impressed with its color rendition, images are quite sharp and very vivid, not to mention
the fact that the aesthetics are really beautiful. I bought my unit last June 2012,...
 
I got it setup, got it online, and soon, I was browsing the web using my LED,
was quite happy with its features, I was not aware that these units needed to be upgraded
once a new firmware is released. And being a Smart TV, it would advise you that a new
firmware is released. So I took the plunge, well actually, I have no choice but to update it coz it keeps popping up,... The first few months of updates went smoothly, and somehow, even improved
the performance of the TV, it improved the speed of the images, it became much fluid...

A few days ago, I think that was Nov. 5, the TV informed me that a new firmware is available, so like before, I chose to upgrade it,... Now comes the problem,...

My TV started having flickering issues, at first maybe its the HDMI cables, good thing I have a couple of reserve cables here, replaced it, still flickering,.. So I decided to remove all the gadgets connected on the TV, and install it to a different TV just to isolate the problem. But somehow, there was no flickering on the other TV, by then I already have an inkling on what's wrong, but still in denial,
coz the ODD thing about updating the firmware to the newer version, is that you won't be able to revert back to the old firmware. (more on that later)

I did interchange all my HDMI connections to see if maybe a certain port is faulty, but somehow, all ports are flickering, therefore I concluded the flickering issue was caused by the last firmware update.

I was so disappointed, so the first thing that came to my mind was to call the Tech Support of Samsung, I told them the whole story, but as you well know, consumer service reps would be able to answer you to a certain extent, to sum it up, the CSR just informed me that someone would be sent here at home to check up on my TV,... I had no choice but to set an appointment, coz I know its beyond my control now...

After calling Samsung, I decided to call BEST BUY, the shop where I bought my TV, they too were of limited help, but somehow, they were much faster to render help, they were able to send out The GEEK SQUAD to my place, The GEEK SQUAD is the troubleshooting group of the Best Buy store,
mind you, its not free, they charge up to $150 a visit just to check up on you, but this time, they did not charge me, coz my unit was still under the factory warranty.

Yesterday, Nov. 8, was the set appointment date of the GEEK SQUAD, a tech guy arrived, but even before he touched my TV, I already told him EVERYTHING he needs to know. The guy complimented me of being a TECH SAVVY, he said that I made his job a lot easier, made a few calls to the office, to know
whether there have been other reports of the same problem, but somehow, there was none yet.
So the supervisor on the other end of the line told us that the only solution to this sort of problem was to obtain a new MAIN BOARD from Samsung and replace the MAIN BOARD on my unit, I felt so dejected,
I have never in my life been a fan of surgery on my gadgets, but, that leaves me with no choice,
for as long as I am not paying anything, they did assured me that in case it get fixed, there will be no charges, and if it the TV won't get fixed, or if the problem persists even after a few months after installing the new part, they would coordinate with Samsung to have my TV replaced. So either way, I am in a win-win scenario. So I agreed on their terms, the part would be sent out to my place, and once it arrives, all I have to do is contact them to have it installed.

Nov. 9, after I dropped off my queen to her work, I was still feeling very disappointed, knowing that a brand new TV would be operated on and have her heart replaced. So, I decided to sent out a couple of emails to Samsung, that includes the CEO, and to the tech department. Telling them of my predicament, and how stressful is this for me, told them that one thing I value here in the US is their consumer protection, etc etc...

After a few MINUTES, I received a phone call, its from a TV repair group of Samsung, informing me that the only solution for now is to (really) replace the main board, coz that is where the firmware is installed, and they would be visiting me next week, I told them OK, it seems, I have no choice....

After an hour, another call came, its from the technical group of Samsung, the guy's name was Raphael, he told me that the CEO called them up, and asked if they can render assistance to my problem. He told me to turn on the TV, he told me to check on the remote management, so that he can access my TV on his end. He also informed me that they had started receiving complaints of the same sort after the update on the firmware. He started tinkering though a bunch of hidden menus and told me that the latest firmware installed had a small app included in it, the SYNC PLUS app, which by default is selected, he simply unchecked it, and told me to check if the symptom is still there,
and like MAGIC, it was gone,..! I was so happy, I told the guy, man, you saved my TV from an unwanted operation, he agreed with me that the problem was software based, and not hardware based. I also asked the guy, would it be advisable still to update my TV if in case a new firmware is released. He said yes, there may be glitches once in a while, but we are always on hand to find the solution to what is causing the glitch. I gave my highest appreciation to his service.

Now my TV is working just fine,...

I gave my appreciation to Samsung for their services, they did acted well to my problem...

Seems I'll be sticking to Samsung again to my next target the 80" LED,....  ^-^

Oh about that reverting back to the old firmware, Raphael told me that Samsung decided to take that off the TV's feature because of some NAUGHTY CONSUMER that keeps changing their firmware,
some of them ending up being bricked, its as if the TV is like an iPhone that can be jailbroken,
so in order to avoid all those technical malfunction, Samsung decided to let their tech guys do any reverting or updating on their firmwares,...

 ;)
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2012 at 11:24 AM by ABCmotorparts »

Offline Timithekid

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #1 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 05:32 AM »
^clap clap Samsung.  I wish the experience would be the same if it happens here back home.  O0
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Offline Stagea

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #2 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 05:32 AM »
Wow. Thanks for writing about this. It's always great to hear of companies who take care of their customers. :)

Offline Macmon

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #3 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 06:04 AM »
Nice ending to a Samsung firmware glitch. Which is why for me, a SMART TV is something of a problem because of the possible glitches during firmware updates.
To Boldly go where no Bluray has gone before.

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #4 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 06:14 AM »
This is actually not good feedback for Samsung.

If ABCmotorparts had not gone out of his way to email the CEO and the tech department, he would be waiting on his main board being replaced.

Since it's buggy firmware that caused it, their tech team should've sent a communication out to their frontline customer support and repair people.  This would have saved a lot of time for a lot of people on both sides of the telephone line and accelerated mean time to repair.

Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #5 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 06:16 AM »
This is actually not good feedback for Samsung.

If ABCmotorparts had not gone out of his way to email the CEO and the tech department, he would be waiting on his main board being replaced.

Since it's buggy firmware that caused it, their tech team should've sent a communication out to their frontline customer support and repair people.  This would have saved a lot of time for a lot of people on both sides of the telephone line and accelerated mean time to repair.

I was about to say that sir,...

Masaya na rin ako na kahit papaano ay may gumalaw,...


Offline Timithekid

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #6 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 06:27 AM »
I was about to say that sir,...

Masaya na rin ako na kahit papaano ay may gumalaw,...



Like every huge company, the only time that they will issue a fix for a bug is if they receive customer complaints, i used to handle the warranty department for a telecom and sad to say, when we get a complaint the first time, its normal troubleshooting first then when we notice that the issues are becoming common, saka lang yan itatrack, so kung known issue, kahit hindi nag email sa CEO, may gagalaw parin naman.  Yun nga lang may process talaga na pagdadaanan.  kawawa tayong consumer kasi tayo yung nagiintay but from their perspective they can't act on every case like it was a bleeding patient on the table, they really track each incident and then decide what to do. 
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Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #7 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 06:31 AM »
Like every huge company, the only time that they will issue a fix for a bug is if they receive customer complaints, i used to handle the warranty department for a telecom and sad to say, when we get a complaint the first time, its normal troubleshooting first then when we notice that the issues are becoming common, saka lang yan itatrack, so kung known issue, kahit hindi nag email sa CEO, may gagalaw parin naman.  Yun nga lang may process talaga na pagdadaanan.  kawawa tayong consumer kasi tayo yung nagiintay but from their perspective they can't act on every case like it was a bleeding patient on the table, they really track each incident and then decide what to do. 

Thanks for the info sir,
kahit naman nung nandyan pa ako sa atin ay ganyan talaga ang protocol,
kaya lang talagang mauubos muna ang pasensya mo bago sila gumalaw,
kadalasan nga ay ubos na hindi pa sila gumagalaw, unless you go directly to the top,...


Offline Timithekid

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #8 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 06:34 AM »
+1!

Sa pinas kailangan talaga umabot sa pinakamataas, in a US company, kahit supervisor lang may nangyayari sa complaint. :(
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Offline pekspert

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #9 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 08:32 AM »
wow remote management! Id say that was a positive for samsung. Buti pa sa USA ganyan, if that happened here, id would take a long time to get it resolved.
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Offline frequenzy

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #10 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 08:43 AM »
how i wish ganyan ang support dito sa pinas ng samsung.

Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #11 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 08:49 AM »
wow remote management! Id say that was a positive for samsung. Buti pa sa USA ganyan, if that happened here, id would take a long time to get it resolved.

Para sa mga hobbyist na katulad natin,
grabeng stress inabot ko kaya,..
Hahaha

But somehow I know may laban ako coz iba ang treatment sa consumer dito sa US,
sabi nga nung tech guy ng Best buy ay win win scenario naman, dahil kung hindi maayos,
lalo at under Factory warranty pa which is 1 full year, papalitan ito talaga,...

And I know how scary it is dyan sa atin, dami na natin nabasa dito sa forum na mga ganitong scenario,
ending up sa nagbabayad pa ulit ang consumer, or worse, nauuwi sa wala,...

Offline barrister

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #12 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 10:34 AM »
Thanks for taking the time to post.  Info like this helps all members by providing case studies.
 
My advice is never to update firmware on a Samsung TV unless it's absolutely necessary.  I've read forum posts about Samsung TVs getting problems after firmware updates, so the problem is fairly common. 
 
Actually, the issue should have been very simple to solve.  You say the issue arose after the firmware update.  So the solution should have been a simple firmware rollback, except that Samsung does not provide a rollback option.  So you're stuck with the faulty firmware.  What I can't figure out is why Samsung doesn't provide a firmware rollback option. 
 
Samsung firmware update sample posts:
 
has anyone had network (wired and wireless) connection issues after upgrading firmware to 1014.3? the tv can no longer detect my wireless router or connect via wired.  :(

There's no way to roll back the firmware.  Paano ngayon yan?  :P
 
Other examples:
 
I downloaded and installed the update following every instruction the website gave me and when my tv restarted itself, the screen was ruined with a terrible color diffusion. I did a factory reset, got nowhere. I contacted a Samsung rep via online chatting and he informed me that there is indeed no way to roll back the firmware to an earlier version.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1324848/firmware-update-ruined-my-samsung-help
 
 
I have a t200hd and last night attempted to upgrade the firmware to a new version and now the TV just keeps restarting itself while in DTV mode.
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-13973_102-410034/samsung-tv-firmware-upgrade-problem/
 
 
I wouldn't trust firmware from a company that releases firmware updates without providing an option for a firmware rollback.  Try finding a way to disable the TV's "new firmware" notification so you can avoid the annoyance of the message nags.  Then avoid firmware updates as much as possible. 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2012 at 10:35 AM by barrister »

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #13 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 10:39 AM »
Good thing youre there bro. I heard that its difficult to get support here in the Ph from samsung.
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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #14 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 12:43 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to post.  Info like this helps all members by providing case studies.
 
My advice is never to update firmware on a Samsung TV unless it's absolutely necessary.  I've read forum posts about Samsung TVs getting problems after firmware updates, so the problem is fairly common. 
 
Actually, the issue should have been very simple to solve.  You say the issue arose after the firmware update.  So the solution should have been a simple firmware rollback, except that Samsung does not provide a rollback option.  So you're stuck with the faulty firmware.  What I can't figure out is why Samsung doesn't provide a firmware rollback option. 
 
Samsung firmware update sample posts:
 
There's no way to roll back the firmware.  Paano ngayon yan?  :P
 
Other examples:
 
I downloaded and installed the update following every instruction the website gave me and when my tv restarted itself, the screen was ruined with a terrible color diffusion. I did a factory reset, got nowhere. I contacted a Samsung rep via online chatting and he informed me that there is indeed no way to roll back the firmware to an earlier version.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1324848/firmware-update-ruined-my-samsung-help
 
 
I have a t200hd and last night attempted to upgrade the firmware to a new version and now the TV just keeps restarting itself while in DTV mode.
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-13973_102-410034/samsung-tv-firmware-upgrade-problem/
 
 
I wouldn't trust firmware from a company that releases firmware updates without providing an option for a firmware rollback.  Try finding a way to disable the TV's "new firmware" notification so you can avoid the annoyance of the message nags.  Then avoid firmware updates as much as possible. 
 

Sir pinaglalaruan ng mga consumers dito ang pagpapalit palit ng firmware, may mga difference kasi sa features and performance, kaya lang marami daw sa mga ito ang nagbi-brick ang unit, and then aawayin ang Samsung sa warranty, kaya ang ginawa ng Samsung, inalis ang feature to revert back to the lower firmware, nadamay tuloy lahat ng mga consumer,...

Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #15 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 12:44 PM »
Good thing youre there bro. I heard that its difficult to get support here in the Ph from samsung.

Thanks sir,...
Had a lot of negative experiences back there nuon,
lalo sa pag-claim ng mga warranty ng gadgets,
hanggang sa sawaan ka na lang at kalimutan na lang,...

 :o

Offline barrister

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #16 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 05:47 PM »
Sir pinaglalaruan ng mga consumers dito ang pagpapalit palit ng firmware, may mga difference kasi sa features and performance, kaya lang marami daw sa mga ito ang nagbi-brick ang unit, and then aawayin ang Samsung sa warranty, kaya ang ginawa ng Samsung, inalis ang feature to revert back to the lower firmware, nadamay tuloy lahat ng mga consumer,...

No, palpak lang talagang gumawa ng firmware ang Samsung. 
 
Samsung plasma na kasi ang TV ng HT ko ngayon e, kaya nakapag-research na ako tungkol sa TV firmware nila.  No firmware updates for me, alam ko na kasi na palpak.
 
The Samsung tech said that they don't provide a firmware rollback option so that firmware hacks can be prevented?  That doesn't make sense.  To prevent firmware hacks, the firmware must be encrypted. 
 
Yes, encryption can still be cracked, but this approach worked for WDTV.  Why is it that not a single custom firmware has been available for the WDTV SMP and Live Hub?  Because those are the only two models that have encrypted firmware.  Samsung TV firmware is not even encrypted.
 
Kung totoo ang sinasabi nilang inalis nila ang rollback capability dahil sa firmware hacks, e di may rollback capability pala dati, pero ngayon ay wala na.  Ang tanong, kailan yung panahon na may rollback capability ang Samsung TV?  Hindi ba never naman talaga nagkaroon ng rollback option ang Samsung TV firmware kahit kailan?  Binobola ka yata ng Samsung tech na yon ... :-\

Iisa lang ang website ng Samsung TV firmware --- SamyGO.  Kokonti naman ang members, posts, and firmware doon, despite the fact that Samsung is the world's largest-selling TV maker.  Puro baluktot nga mag-English yuing mga members ng SamyGO, halata mong bihira lang ang Amerikano sa site na yon.  Kaya hindi rin totoo na maraming firmware hackers for Samsung TV sa US.

 
« Last Edit: Nov 11, 2012 at 12:12 AM by barrister »

Offline oznola

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #17 on: Nov 10, 2012 at 07:52 PM »
wow remote management! Id say that was a positive for samsung. Buti pa sa USA ganyan, if that happened here, id would take a long time to get it resolved.

galing nga! impressive yung feature na yan. akala ko horror story nanaman e. almost lang pala.

i agree with barrister, disable if possible the auto firmware upgrade notifs.

not a fan of updates as well. its too risky.

Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #18 on: Nov 12, 2012 at 09:03 AM »
I stand corrected on the hidden menu, it was not a hidden menu,
the SYNCplus app was installed by the Smart HUB together with the Firmware update,
I just scrolled around the menu on the Smart HUB and found its selection,...

Apparently, hindi ako nag-iisa,...
But I think I will still update my TV to a newer firmware soon,... (walang kadala dala hahahaha)

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1414638/official-samsung-unxxes7100-thread/600

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1437407/problem-with-my-samsung-55-led3dtv-need-advice


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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #19 on: Nov 12, 2012 at 09:10 AM »
buti nalang sir sa usa nangyari yan.  i have to be careful of fw updates rin pala since i got my smart tv sa usa.

may puc kayo kung no itsura nung nagka problema? somehow my bros sony tv may ganun din atang issue. nung may pinatay syang option nawala.

Offline Stagea

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #20 on: Nov 12, 2012 at 09:25 AM »
Kung totoo ang sinasabi nilang inalis nila ang rollback capability dahil sa firmware hacks, e di may rollback capability pala dati, pero ngayon ay wala na.  Ang tanong, kailan yung panahon na may rollback capability ang Samsung TV?  Hindi ba never naman talaga nagkaroon ng rollback option ang Samsung TV firmware kahit kailan?  Binobola ka yata ng Samsung tech na yon ... :-\   

Meron ata mga pre-2010 models, Atty. I'm not sure if all, pero marami were revertable dati.
« Last Edit: Nov 12, 2012 at 09:26 AM by Stagea »

Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #21 on: Nov 12, 2012 at 09:32 AM »
buti nalang sir sa usa nangyari yan.  i have to be careful of fw updates rin pala since i got my smart tv sa usa.

may puc kayo kung no itsura nung nagka problema? somehow my bros sony tv may ganun din atang issue. nung may pinatay syang option nawala.

Was not able to take a video at naiinis nga ako,... hehehe
Though on the lower right part of the screen ay parang may static,
nanginginig ang images, as well as on the left middle part ng screen,
para bang may interference na nagbabato ng data na naaapektuhan ang video,
seems yung SYNCplus app ng Yahoo ang may pakana,...

Offline barrister

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #22 on: Nov 12, 2012 at 11:15 AM »
Apparently, hindi ako nag-iisa,...
But I think I will still update my TV to a newer firmware soon,... (walang kadala dala hahahaha)

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1414638/official-samsung-unxxes7100-thread/600

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1437407/problem-with-my-samsung-55-led3dtv-need-advice

 :D ;D

Suwerte sir at madaling na resolve ito.
 
Pero malay mo, baka yung next update magkaroon ng issue na mahirap ma resolve...  :-\ 
 
« Last Edit: Nov 12, 2012 at 11:16 AM by barrister »

Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #23 on: Nov 12, 2012 at 08:17 PM »

 :D ;D

Suwerte sir at madaling na resolve ito.
 
Pero malay mo, baka yung next update magkaroon ng issue na mahirap ma resolve...  :-\ 
 

Kung ganun man sir, may laban pa rin ng palit sa Best Buy,...
Still protected here sa US,...

Offline oznola

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #24 on: Nov 12, 2012 at 08:41 PM »

But I think I will still update my TV to a newer firmware soon,... (walang kadala dala hahahaha)


lol!

so these apps that gets downloaded can be disabled from there?

Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #25 on: Nov 13, 2012 at 12:27 AM »
I just received a call from the Samsung Tech Guy Raphael,
He told me to check on the SYNCplus app on the Smart HUB,
and its not there anymore, seems Samsung deleted it already,
he also informed me that by next week, a far better firmware will be
released, 1024, he still advises me to update my unit,...
He assures me of their support...

Hold on to your horses,...  :o

Offline oznola

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #26 on: Nov 13, 2012 at 12:41 AM »
napaka proactive ng support nila sa iyo. will wait for the next firmware update saga!  ^-^

Offline Timithekid

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #27 on: Nov 13, 2012 at 12:44 AM »
I just received a call from the Samsung Tech Guy Raphael,
He told me to check on the SYNCplus app on the Smart HUB,
and its not there anymore, seems Samsung deleted it already,
he also informed me that by next week, a far better firmware will be
released, 1024, he still advises me to update my unit,...
He assures me of their support...

Hold on to your horses,...  :o

If they spend that much time communicating with you then I'd trust the support team.  Not a lot of companies offer the type of service that you are getting.
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Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #28 on: Nov 13, 2012 at 04:10 AM »
napaka proactive ng support nila sa iyo. will wait for the next firmware update saga!  ^-^

If they spend that much time communicating with you then I'd trust the support team.  Not a lot of companies offer the type of service that you are getting.

Yan ang nasa isip ko guys, it seems kahit anong sablay ang mangyari ay may support akong makukuha,
we're gonna find out, the tech guy even gave me his direct number, so its a good sign,...


Offline barrister

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Re: Samsung UN55ES6500 Story
« Reply #29 on: Nov 13, 2012 at 07:53 AM »
 
 
Yan ang nasa isip ko guys, it seems kahit anong sablay ang mangyari ay may support akong makukuha,
we're gonna find out, the tech guy even gave me his direct number, so its a good sign,...

Did you ask them about the change in color and brightness?
 
 
Now, my TV is working just fine, but somehow the last firmware update sort of affected the color and brightness of the TV,
I feel it became very saturated, I'm having troubles balancing it, skin tones are a bit yellowish, is it me, or the firmware indeed messed up the balance of my TV,
coz before, I would just choose the DYNAMIC setting, then lessen the color a bit, and I'm good to go, now, I feel its sort of too colorful,...
I would really appreciate your HELP guys,...

Regards,...

TLCBJ41v

 
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1414638/official-samsung-unxxes7100-thread/600#post_22578969
 
 

 
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Kung totoo ang sinasabi nilang inalis nila ang rollback capability dahil sa firmware hacks, e di may rollback capability pala dati, pero ngayon ay wala na.  Ang tanong, kailan yung panahon na may rollback capability ang Samsung TV?  Hindi ba never naman talaga nagkaroon ng rollback option ang Samsung TV firmware kahit kailan?  Binobola ka yata ng Samsung tech na yon ... :-\ 

 
Sabi ko sa yo, binobola ka ng Samsung tech na yon:
 
Hey, tlcbj41v, perhaps you should read back a few pages. It was THIS FORUM that alerted Samsung to the problem with the firmware. It was members of THIS FORUM that diagnosed the problem for them. They rolled the firmware back, not because of "naughty consumers" but because it is broken.

I shouldn't be getting frustrated about your post, but man, after the crap that we went through to actually deliver this information into Samsung's hands, it burns me how they are positioning the whole thing.

 
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1414638/official-samsung-unxxes7100-thread/600#post_22579334
 
 
« Last Edit: Nov 13, 2012 at 07:58 AM by barrister »