Topic: Weak Voice/vocals on movies (Laptop + 2 channel amp setup)

[raider125jeigh]

This is the main purpose ng center channel, even noong panahon pa ng Dolby Prologic, wala pang 5.1

If you have several listeners across the listening area only a few will be in the sweet spot. Now if iyou have a  listener on the left side, most of the sound he will hear will be coming from the LEFT speaker, same with the person on the Right Side. if your the unlucky one na nasa right side,  medjo weird yung movie experience mo, kasi yung screen nasa Left side mo and then yung sound nasa Right side lang kasi close ka sa Right side.  How did the engineers solve this ? by Adding a Center Channel. Before  5.1 came to be, 2.0 lang, What they did is that the signal that are present in the left and Right Channels is MIXED to produce the Center Channel. The effect is regardless where your sitted, naka fixed yung sound sa CENTER ng screen because of the Center Channel unless may mga panning effect. Sa 5.1 they do the same thing pero digitally na.

If you notice maraming CENTER channel speakers na dual woofers compared to their Left and Right counter parts na single woofers lang, Why add another woofer if  its just for VOICE ? sana midrange na lang diba, pero hindi, It is  because most of the explosions is at the Center Channel, so you need a robust center channel.

CENTER speaker are use for DIALOGUEs(LEAD Vocal) and **Special effects**
2.1 setup for movies vs 5.1 setup malayo ang difference..
try kong tangalin ung center speaker ko later...hihihihi....
center and sub are the best ht equip

[markcrenz]

Kahit na kaliwa o kanan ang tao..kapag naguusap sa center yan lumalabas

i beg to disagree. maraming movies that pan the voices accordingly. best example is the animated movie Monsters, Inc. meron din voices that come from the rear. a properly mixed surround movie positions instruments, effects, and voices anywhere in the sound field.

[markcrenz]

try kong tangalin ung center speaker ko later

no need to physically disconnect it. just set the center channel to off.

[edboy7]

ok....to clear things out hehehehehe there is no movie mixed in a 4.1 set up AFAIK     but if a 4.1 set up works for you (which is a downmix ) ....well and good

BTW....I have an old trusty champagne gold Marantz receiver which can downmix  and up mix audio signals

IME with modern receivers (5 years old and newer,) this activates PHANTOM CENTER channel.

virtually every PC software that i've used since the days of DVD automatically uses this as well (if your speaker is configured as stereo or 4.1)

IME, only reason to loose center channel audio (and the large amount of dialog typically mixed into it) is to have center speaker set as present in the receiver/software config, when you down have a center speaker at all. in short, improper configuration of the system

maybe on your old marantz receiver it's not capable of down-mixing multi-channel into stereo, but in more recent receivers, they handle down-mixing and phantom center just fine.

IME with modern receivers (5 years old and newer,) this activates PHANTOM CENTER channel.

virtually every PC software that i've used since the days of DVD automatically uses this as well (if your speaker is configured as stereo or 4.1)

IME, only reason to loose center channel audio (and the large amount of dialog typically mixed into it) is to have center speaker set as present in the receiver/software config, when you down have a center speaker at all. in short, improper configuration of the system

maybe on your old marantz receiver it's not capable of down-mixing multi-channel into stereo, but in more recent receivers, they handle down-mixing and phantom center just fine.

[raider125jeigh]

i beg to disagree. maraming movies that pan the voices accordingly. best example is the animated movie Monsters, Inc. meron din voices that come from the rear. a properly mixed surround movie positions instruments, effects, and voices anywhere in the sound field.

hahaha... ayan nga ung surr effect

clearly stated
LEAD VOCALS.........

[rthirtyfourgtr]

no need to physically disconnect it. just set the center channel to off.

agree. disconnecting the center speaker, while leaving the setting of center speaker to on/present will result in center channel audio not being reproduced (majority of the dialog will be lost among other things)

however, if you change the setting of center speaker to off/none, then the receiver automatically redirects the center channel audio to the FL/FR speakers (all sounds are maintained, but perfect center channel imaging can only be heard at the sweet spot - seating on the center line between FL and FR)

same goes for the subwoofer as well (at least when using onkyo receivers.) setting the subwoofer to off/none forces the fronts to operate as full range, as all LFE audio is redirected to the front. whether or not the fronts are capable of good low frequency extension is another matter.

ok....to clear things out hehehehehe there is no movie mixed in a 4.1 set up AFAIK     but if a 4.1 set up works for you (which is a downmix ) ....well and good

BTW....I have an old trusty champagne gold Marantz receiver which can downmix  and up mix audio signals

nobody said quadrophonic sound is a currently in use as an audio format. what we're trying to explain is that not having a center speaker doesn't automatically mean center channel audio is lost. it's all a matter of having the system properly configured. only reason you would lose center channel audio reproduction is if you did not configure your gears properly.

[av_phile1]

Center channel/speaker is recommended in large rooms where the front L and R speakers are spread wide apart, usually 4-5 meters apart at least.  This is to ensure that vocal localization is conserved even for listeners at the far corners of the room.  It's all about localization of voice content.

In my case, nearfield listening with me just a meter from each L and R speaker renders a center channel more of a luxury. If voice is weak, it can mean any of the following
-speakers are not exhibiting a flat frequency response where a dip in the mid-frequencies often result in poor articulation in the voice frequencies.  A multichannel content downmixed into stereo will have the same vocal content routed as mono-signal to two channels and the listener seated between the speakers will hear the same vocal content as if having a center channel. Even one seated at the far end will hear the voice coming from one of the speakers nearer to him/her.
-the laptop equalizer is engaged with more emphasis on the low and high while the mids are de-emphasized
-the material itself could have been recorded with de-emphasized mids.
-the laptop or PC is configured for 5 channels but you are only using two speakers. the center frequencies containing voice have nowhere to go.

[raider125jeigh]

no need to physically disconnect it. just set the center channel to off.

ok....to clear things out hehehehehe there is no movie mixed in a 4.1 set up AFAIK     but if a 4.1 set up works for you (which is a downmix ) ....well and good

BTW....I have an old trusty champagne gold Marantz receiver which can downmix  and up mix audio signals

hahaha...

5.1
6.1
7.1
ang alam kong movie tracks  that you can downmix sa 2.1
7.1 to 5.1 downmix

kaya nga ako nagswitch sa 2.1 to 5.1 dahil nga mahina ang boses for movies....which i really recommend having CENTER channel dahil anlaking improvement...

LEAD VOCALS....not surr effects voices....
kung papanoodin ko ung movie ng walang center e for sure walang boses..


CENTER speaker are mainly used for LEAD VOCALS(meaning hindi lahat lalo na kung pang surr/panning) and special effects
mostly ng nag HT > MOVIES may center speakers......if hindi kelangan un ...they wont use it with no purpose at all..

and joke joke joke ko lang ung iremove ung center channel...hihihi

[markcrenz]

hahaha... ayan nga ung surr effect

clearly stated
LEAD VOCALS.........

...parang si Arnel Pineda ng Journey?

[markcrenz]

kung papanoodin ko ung movie ng walang center e for sure walang boses..

sure ka talaga?

[raider125jeigh]

i beg to disagree. maraming movies that pan the voices accordingly. best example is the animated movie Monsters, Inc. meron din voices that come from the rear. a properly mixed surround movie positions instruments, effects, and voices anywhere in the sound field.

hindi ako manood ng movie na maririnig ko lang ung surr effects na wala ung LEAD Vocal...
lalabas at lalabas ang vocals...sa stereo setup ...un nga lang nasasapawan yan kapag halo halo na ung lumabas

explosion/bombs/gun shots....hindi mo na halos marinig ung vocals...unlike kapag may dedicated CENTER speaker...hihihi

[raider125jeigh]

...parang si Arnel Pineda ng Journey?

kung ayun intindi mo....sa LEAD vocal...
pwede din si BAMBOO..... or RICO blanco...

walang boses sa setup ko...kasi dedicated e....
unless 2.1 ung setup ko then downmix...etc
sa stereo meron....lalabas pero hindi ko type..hina ng boses nasasapawan...
kaya nga ako nagHT to feel the surr and explosion with clear VOCALS

ang usapan lang dito mahina ung boses sa 2.1 setup...hihihi...

baket nga ba?

[rthirtyfourgtr]

ang usapan lang dito mahina ung boses sa 2.1 setup...hihihi...

baket nga ba?

not entirely accurate. to my understanding, the original question was "why is vocals in movies weaker compared to music?"

TS having observed this in a 2.1 setup says nothing about how 5.1 is better than 2.1

as i've posted previously, having a center speaker does improve the quality of reproduction for multi-channel audio due to channel separation, but the difference in dynamic range in music vs. movies is still there.

[markcrenz]

ang usapan lang dito mahina ung boses sa 2.1 setup...hihihi...

baket nga ba?

but the difference in dynamic range in music vs. movies is still there.

[edboy7]

hahaha... ayan nga ung surr effect

clearly stated
LEAD VOCALS.........

when you say " LEAD VOCALS" po kasi e..musical term po ...HT yata usapan at....SUPER OT na yata Tayo pati si Sir AV PHILE nabuhay hehehehehehe Musta na po lol

[raider125jeigh]

not entirely accurate. to my understanding, the original question was "why is vocals in movies weaker compared to music?"

TS having observed this in a 2.1 setup says nothing about how 5.1 is better than 2.1

as i've posted previously, having a center speaker does improve the quality of reproduction for multi-channel audio due to channel separation, but the difference in dynamic range in music vs. movies is still there.

ayun lang din naman ang nakikita ko e...
iba ung may dedicated center speaker
pansin talaga ang difference kahit magsasabog pa na mala PEARL HARBOR

kasi walang explosion sa music? hihihi

[≧◉◡◉≦xrampage≧◉◡◉≦]

Basta ang na observe ko pag wala center speaker hahalo yung vocal sa 2 fronts speaker so halo halo na lahat yan. If you like clear vocal kahit na may explosion pa yan get a center speaker.

[raider125jeigh]

when you say " LEAD VOCALS" po kasi e..musical term po ...HT yata usapan at....SUPER OT na yata Tayo pati si Sir AV PHILE nabuhay hehehehehehe Musta na po lol

hehe...
lead vocals means kung sinu ung main na nagsasalita dun sa movie
kasi kapag sinabi lang natin na boses..meron kasing boses coming from surr/panning etc
unless ang perception nila sa lead vocals ay ganun...hehehe
minsan ok din ung ganto...masaya hahaha...

[raider125jeigh]

Basta ang na observe ko pag wala center speaker hahalo yung vocal sa 2 fronts speaker so halo halo na lahat yan. If you like clear vocal kahit na may explosion pa yan get a center speaker.

hihihi....
or better use the right equipment for HT....
INT amp is use for MUSIC listening
while RECEIVER is use for HT listening..
once receiver is ok..center speaker can now be used and vocals are really PERFECT!
peace po tayong lahat...

[defcon3]

Basta ang na observe ko pag wala center speaker hahalo yung vocal sa 2 fronts speaker so halo halo na lahat yan. If you like clear vocal kahit na may explosion pa yan get a center speaker.

+1

[edboy7]

nobody said quadrophonic sound is a currently in use as an audio format. what we're trying to explain is that not having a center speaker doesn't automatically mean center channel audio is lost. it's all a matter of having the system properly configured. only reason you would lose center channel audio reproduction is if you did not configure your gears properly.

Im just saying if you still hear dialogs not " lead vocals"( pwera na lang kung concert hahahaha) on a 4.1 set up......DOWNMIX na po yun

[rthirtyfourgtr]

^ and what does DOWNMIX entail, discarding information or redirecting them to the appropriate channel(s)?

[edboy7]

Basta ang na observe ko pag wala center speaker hahalo yung vocal sa 2 fronts speaker so halo halo na lahat yan. If you like clear vocal kahit na may explosion pa yan get a center speaker.

when you say "pag wala center speaker"...you turn it off  sa settings ng amp or disconnect the  center speaker cable? para maliwang lang hehehehehehe

[edboy7]

^ and what does DOWNMIX entail, discarding information or redirecting them to the appropriate channel(s)?

redirecting po.....you wont lose any information parin naman  which is really made for  Stere and 4.1/ 2.1 set ups

[≧◉◡◉≦xrampage≧◉◡◉≦]

when you sa you "pag wala center speaker"...you turn it off  sa settings ng amp or disconnect the  center speaker cable? para maliwang lang hehehehehehe

I believe turn it off on the reciever and disconnect the speaker is same output all the vocals will go to the 2 front speaker. This is laso applicable to the sub if there is no sub the bass will go to the 2 front speaker. I already tested this to my 5.1 setup if no center speaker the vocal will go to the 2 fronts speaker.

Hi,  As you mention you are using your laptop as your media player windows player is limited when it comes to movies with DD encoded it is not designed for that format its only analog that is why there is no vocal coming to the center speaker check your sound card if it is capable to handle DD even if can handle DD you should use optical out (SPDIF) toslink coming from your laptop i asume that your laptop does not have (SPDIF) only few laptops have this. I have this problem before, your options you need to install a gadgets if your serious of your PCHT of course gastos na naman. http://asia.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=873&product=20055 try this gadget you would regret it not so expensive.

So he is using a windows media plyer built in? I believe this is same with HTPC. I use the analog sound card of my HTPC and it can output from DTS-HDMA to analog using tha analog sound card to my altec lansing 2.1. Pero yung nga lang mahina talaga yung vocal since there is no dedicated center speaker for the vocal.

[gabe0811]

Hi,  As you mention you are using your laptop as your media player windows player is limited when it comes to movies with DD encoded it is not designed for that format its only analog that is why there is no vocal coming to the center speaker check your sound card if it is capable to handle DD even if can handle DD you should use optical out (SPDIF) toslink coming from your laptop i asume that your laptop does not have (SPDIF) only few laptops have this. I have this problem before, your options you need to install a gadgets if your serious of your PCHT of course gastos na naman. http://asia.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=873&product=20055 try this gadget you would regret it not so expensive.

[markcrenz]

Hi,  As you mention you are using your laptop as your media player windows player is limited when it comes to movies with DD encoded it is not designed for that format its only analog that is why there is no vocal coming to the center speaker check your sound card if it is capable to handle DD even if can handle DD you should use optical out (SPDIF) toslink coming from your laptop i asume that your laptop does not have (SPDIF) only few laptops have this. I have this problem before, your options you need to install a gadgets if your serious of your PCHT of course gastos na naman. http://asia.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=873&product=20055 try this gadget you would regret it not so expensive.

I think solved na si qguy sa 2.1 setup nya. he has accepted the reality na magkaiba ang dynamic range ng movies sa music.

Thanks for all the replies. Like what MarkCrenz said there should not be any issue if the system is played on a 2.1 system or a 5.1 system. I just find that at normal levels where I can clearly hear the voice, the explosions are too darn loud (for my neighbors sake), well as explained by some, an EXPLOSION is an EXPLOSION and it has to be loud or supot siya hehehe. I dont mind the explosion levels, I just dont think my neighbors would appreciate an explosion everyday and everynight hehehe 

I did try the Quite mode on Windows Media player, but the explosions lost some of its impact, so I just it off and LET ER RIP !!!

[edboy7]

I believe turn it off on the reciever and disconnect the speaker is same output all the vocals will go to the 2 front speaker. This is laso applicable to the sub if there is no sub the bass will go to the 2 front speaker. I already tested this to my 5.1 setup if no center speaker the vocal will go to the 2 fronts speaker.

When you "turn off" the center speaker , the receiver will auto down mix or redirect the center signal to the left and left channels same principle din for the sub signal

[rthirtyfourgtr]

redirecting po.....you wont lose any information parin naman  which is really made for  Stere and 4.1/ 2.1 set ups

[sigh] i don't get it.

previously you said that turning off (via avr settings) and disconnecting the center speaker will result in no dialogs (due to downmixing being activated)

now you're saying downmixing just redirects audio information (hence nothing is lost. correct, by the way )

[raider125jeigh]

I believe turn it off on the reciever and disconnect the speaker is same output all the vocals will go to the 2 front speaker. This is laso applicable to the sub if there is no sub the bass will go to the 2 front speaker. I already tested this to my 5.1 setup if no center speaker the vocal will go to the 2 fronts speaker.

So he is using a windows media plyer built in? I believe this is same with HTPC. I use the analog sound card of my HTPC and it can output from DTS-HDMA to analog using tha analog sound card to my altec lansing 2.1. Pero yung nga lang mahina talaga yung vocal since there is no dedicated center speaker for the vocal.

elms kapag niremove mo o hindi nakakabit ung center speaker iba un sa turning it off sa receiver..
kapag nakatangal - wala talagang lead dialogue
kapag nakaoff sa receiver - (havent tried) receiver will send dialogues to  l and f