Author Topic: Surrounds: Dipole, Bipole, or Full-range? (Read 11190 times)

boi801 · « **Reply #30 on:** Feb 18, 2004 at 12:01 AM »

WITH THE ADVENT OF MULTI CHANNEL MUSIC,ARE DIPOLE SURROUNDS BECOMING OUT OF DATE?

kimpOy · « **Reply #31 on:** Feb 18, 2004 at 09:27 AM »

question,
kung floorstanders (DTX)ang ilagay ko as surround
ano setting ang ilalagay ko?

small? large?

av_phile1 · « **Reply #32 on:** Feb 18, 2004 at 11:52 AM »

Done that before. Set to large, kaya naman ng floorstanders eh. More body to the sound.

av_phile1 · « **Reply #33 on:** Feb 18, 2004 at 11:59 AM »

Quote from: boi801 on Feb 18, 2004 at 12:01 AM

WITH THE ADVENT OF MULTI CHANNEL MUSIC,ARE DIPOLE SURROUNDS BECOMING OUT OF DATE?

Not really. Dipoles and bipoles sound best in prologic modes or some DSP modes and with many DVD titles as ambient sounds become diffused and un-localized. Monopoles are recommended for 4-5 channel stereo and multichannel modes in some DVD-Audio and SACD titles that have discreet full-range mixes in the rear. But not all, I have some DVD-audio titles where there isn't much activity in the rear except for theatre ambient effects which can better be served with dipoles.

There are some audiophiles who have both and rear amplifer gears that can select between dipoles and monopoles for the rear depending on their source materials. Tyoically dipoles for movies and monopoles for music. But even in music, dipoles work better in some mixes. It's up to your ears to decides which sounds better. I for one plan to have both types within the year.

kimpOy · « **Reply #34 on:** Feb 18, 2004 at 03:18 PM »

Quote from: av_phile1 on Feb 18, 2004 at 11:52 AM

Done that before. Set to large, kaya naman ng floorstanders eh. More body to the sound.

thanks av_phile i was hoping that you'll answer my post

kimpOy · « **Reply #35 on:** Feb 18, 2004 at 04:43 PM »

follow up Q,
match ba MS for front and DTX rear?

slowhand · « **Reply #36 on:** Feb 18, 2004 at 04:49 PM »

Quote from: av_phile1 on Feb 18, 2004 at 11:59 AM

But even in music, dipoles work better in some mixes.

Absolutely agree

slowhand · « **Reply #37 on:** Feb 18, 2004 at 06:35 PM »

BTW, if you're setting your surrounds as Large, ingat lang. A friend busted his surrounds that way. Gusto rin kasi niya ang tunog pag Large. However many of these surrounds are not designed to handle full-range signals, and some discs send such signals to the surrounds. B&W pa naman yung speakers niya, sayang.

av_phile1 · « **Reply #38 on:** Feb 18, 2004 at 06:52 PM »

Quote from: kimpOy on Feb 18, 2004 at 04:43 PM

follow up Q,
match ba MS for front and DTX rear?

Nope. But the timbre differences are very slight. Using uncorrelated pink noise generated by my preamp when calibrating the channels, the DTX gives off a slightly lower pitch. And since I don't have a spectograph, I can only assume that either the DTX has some more emphasis on the LF or that the MS has better emphasis on the HF. Based on listening comparisons using both as fronts, the DTX is sweeter and less bright. the MS has more extended highs, more detail, thus the difference in pnk noise overall pitch.

On movies, the surround sound is highly localized. You can pinpoint the chirping birds very distinctly as coming from either left or right where the DTX speakers are. That's understandable for monopoles. According to some, that's not supposed to be. And that's why dipoles are used so you can't localize. But because they are full-ranged, a jetplane coming from the back can be hair-raising.

On music, playing multichannel stereo can be seamless on some recordings. With a few minor exceptions. Playing a mono Dean Martin on multichannel mode should make it appear like Dean Martin was dead center in the room. But somehow the difference in timbre or pitch will allow you to hear some slight difference in Dean Martin's voice when you move from front to the back. But it is not that distracting unless you are looking for it and walking front to back while listening.

It is most satisfying when playing multi channel DVD-audio with discreet sounds from each channel. There can be no mistake that a full-range rear monopole does a great job in such mixes. It is ideal to have identical speakers all around. But for one fourth the price of an MS floorstander, i can't complain. Slight timbre differences between front and back when playing discreet multichannel mixes is hardly distracting as each channel delivers different instruments in varying prominence. And for me the difference in pitch is slight and becomes apparent only when you play pink noise to calibrate the channels. But i don't enjoy listening to pink noise, do you?

kimpOy · « **Reply #39 on:** Feb 19, 2004 at 01:49 PM »

i dont,

thank you for review, galing mo sumulat ng review ah AV
akala ko nga i was reading a AV mag

i will use mainly the dtx surround for movies only

slowhand · « **Reply #40 on:** Feb 19, 2004 at 04:23 PM »

Quote from: slowhand on Feb 18, 2004 at 06:35 PM

However many of these surrounds are not designed to handle full-range signals, and some discs send such signals to the surrounds.

To provide specifics, here are just *some* DVDs that send sub-25Hz frequencies to all channels, including surrounds (as measured by Widescreen Review):

8 Mile
Below
Black Hawk Down
Cradle 2 the Grave
Daredevil
Die Hard
Rabbit Proof Fence
Star Trek IV
Stir of Echoes
T2
Tears of the Sun
The Animatrix
The Fast and the Furious
The Mummy
The One
The Recruit
The Transporter

I'm sure there are a lot more.

av_phile1 · « **Reply #41 on:** Feb 19, 2004 at 05:25 PM »

I have most of these. To add:

Lion King
Titan A.E.
Star Wars Episode 1 & 2
Terminator 3
Saving Private Ryan
Pearl Harbour

Some DVD concerts

May not be sub 25 Hz, but I see extensive woofer activiity enough to conclude there is bass information that might be taxing for some rear dipoles when set to large.

redkoji · « **Reply #42 on:** Feb 19, 2004 at 07:05 PM »

Hey anyone looking for Bi-polar in-wall speaker for surround..we have an available Definitive Tech model which might be worth having

Jairus · « **Reply #43 on:** Apr 22, 2004 at 01:13 PM »

Anyone here have heard/own Wharfedale's Diamond DFS BIPOLAR speakers. Any comments?

av_phile1 · « **Reply #44 on:** Apr 22, 2004 at 01:24 PM »

I've seen one Diamond DFS bipole at Tech Central and looks very handsome and priced quite friendly enough. Haven't heard it though. I am contemplating on getting one as a selectable option with my monopoles for the rear.

Jairus · « **Reply #45 on:** Apr 22, 2004 at 01:51 PM »

How do you place those bipolars? Based on the Wharfedale site, the Diamond DFS is supposed to be placed at the rear. But I read somewhere that bipoles/dipoles should be placed on the sides.

av_phile1 · « **Reply #46 on:** Apr 22, 2004 at 01:57 PM »

As dipoles and bipoles go, for me it doesn't matter so long as you get the diffused ambient sound at the listening postition. You can experiment on the placement either way. If Wharfedale recommends the back wall, you can start with that and see if the sides will be any better or not. If I do get a set, i'll be putting mine at the back as I have no place on the sides to put them.

fierari · « **Reply #47 on:** Jun 21, 2004 at 09:36 AM »

any reviews on wh-2 bipole?

mattmatt · « **Reply #48 on:** Jul 04, 2004 at 10:39 PM »

For 7.1 set up, pls. help with these options:
a. two sets(pair) of dipole speakers(missions m5ds), one pair monopole(m30 or 31) for side and one for rear
b. one pair of dipole speakers as side, and one pair monopoles for rear
c. one pair of monopoles as side and, and one pair of dipoles for rear.

Using onkyo txnr900, with mission 783 as front speakers.
Room size is about 12x17 ft.

mattmatt · « **Reply #49 on:** Jul 05, 2004 at 05:52 AM »

Quote from: gaol on Feb 27, 2003 at 08:10 AM

I guess the same can be said of bipoles WHEN it comes to localized 'panning' or steering and directional effects. Properly setup, you DO GET THESE EFFECTS and to me it's good enough:

- to hear the burst of flames go around you, in that oven scene in Chicken Run; ditto with the whirling mace in the the first arena battle in Gladiator.
- to hear the whizz of the pod racers from behind to front, and all around, and the ricochet of bullets in EP1's Pod Race
- the sound of doors opening/closing to the right and behind, water dripping in a cave, etc.

And you still get that advantage of being immersed and enveloped in the ambient sound:

- being in the middle of a snowstorm/hailstorm/rainstorm and you can't say where it's coming from.
- underwater effects
- being inside a cave with all the ambient echoing, and so on-
- being part of the screaming crowd in concerts, and so on

Since I use my HT setup primarily for movies and listen to music in a separate stereo only setup (as arnoldc puts it, nothing beats the imaging/soundstaging of a good stereo setup--now that's steering/panning/localized effects enough for me in music), I decided to get Mission's m7ds bipoles instead of the m71 or m72.

(Price can also be a consideration, since bipoles are generally more expensive than direct radiating options of the same brand/line. Direct radiating speakers too are more flexible, since they can serve/be sold as fronts if desired.)

So in the end, it comes down to preference. What does one prioritize and what will one be content with good enough?
Advice bro, for my 7.1 set up, for rears is it advisable to have
a.)two sets of dipole? mission m5ds, or
b.) one dipole and 1 monopole (m30 or 31)? if yes which one should be placed on side?

room is 12 X 17 ft.

GAOL

qguy · « **Reply #50 on:** May 27, 2006 at 11:55 AM »

interesting reading...

synchro_01 · « **Reply #51 on:** May 27, 2006 at 03:59 PM »

used to have Dipolars as my rears...the presentation has that somewhat "cinematic" feel wherein the effects dont overwhelm you or call attention to themselves thereby putting all your attention to the front where all the action is. I was happy with that setup for quite a while but after hearing a entry level system wherein all the channels used were identical floorstanders all the way around I easily got bored with my set up and decided to try on the floorstanding route. Im now using 3 way floorstanders powered by a seperate 250 watt RMS per channel power amp...settings on my pre/pro are the ff: rears set to Large and have a high pass X-over of 20Hz. the rears are able to pound out usable output to around 40Hz with authority. Now the presentation is downright scary to say the least....safe to say that im never gonna go back to pint size rear surrounds.