Author Topic: Non-Catholic  (Read 71585 times)

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Offline barrister

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #90 on: Jul 26, 2015 at 09:06 PM »
Maganda naman ang punto mo sir.
« Last Edit: Jul 26, 2015 at 09:06 PM by barrister »

Offline barrister

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #91 on: Jul 26, 2015 at 09:13 PM »
i wonder, is there a true church? all of them seems to cater to MONEY and all its implications....
what we know about Jesus Christ and what we see with these churches seem to contradict one another...


That's why I'm not a member of any sect.

Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #92 on: Jul 26, 2015 at 09:42 PM »
I think you did not get my point.

To me INC is a scam/business. So that's why I am not joining their membership because I can see any gain from my investment.

I rather invest the 10% of my income in legitimate business where I can earn and will donate to my church certain amount based on what I can/want.


Ahhh yes,...
I totally agree...

Offline CeeV

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #93 on: Jul 26, 2015 at 11:46 PM »
With the current discussion of Religion...narember ko tuloy ang late Grandfather ko.  He once said during a normal debate/discussion with his friends, pamangkins and son na catholic priest..  Give me a religion or any sect na walang involve na Donation/ikapu/contribution/charity money , whatever that involves money He would gladly follow that religion. And to this day I haven't found one.
He maybe also the reason why I do practice my religion (Catholic)  half heartedly.  I always remember my Grandfather ways of believing in GOD  in his own bible  interpretation and living a very humble simple life.  Kinda ironic....Him a father of a priest and an uncle of an INC minister.  I grew up hearing their normal bible/religion discussion...

Offline dpogs

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #94 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 12:16 AM »
With the current discussion of Religion...narember ko tuloy ang late Grandfather ko.  He once said during a normal debate/discussion with his friends, pamangkins and son na catholic priest..  Give me a religion or any sect na walang involve na Donation/ikapu/contribution/charity money , whatever that involves money He would gladly follow that religion. And to this day I haven't found one.
He maybe also the reason why I do practice my religion (Catholic)  half heartedly.  I always remember my Grandfather ways of believing in GOD  in his own bible  interpretation and living a very humble simple life.  Kinda ironic....Him a father of a priest and an uncle of an INC minister.  I grew up hearing their normal bible/religion discussion...

in my opinion wala talagang mageexist na ganyang religion ... unang una... wala silang place of worship (walang perang pambili ng lupa o pang-upa ng building).... pangalawa patay ang pastor/pari/ministro (walang perang pambili ng pagkain - alangan naman magbusiness ang pastor - ano un mamangka sa dalawang ilog)... hindi na uso ngayon ang miracle na mag multiply ng tinapay at isda :):):)

dalawang method lang naman para maturuan ang mga miyembro magbigay
- blessed them and give them the true Word of God or salvation - good teaching
- teach them the prosperity Gospel or pay for your salvation - "when you give, expect in return/investment" or "when you give your soul will be delivered from hell" - bad teaching
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline barrister

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #95 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 12:17 AM »
....Him a father of a priest and an uncle of an INC minister.  I grew up hearing their normal bible/religion discussion...

Kabisado ko na ang direksiyon ng debate niyan.

Si Kristo ay tao, hindi Diyos.  Di ba?  :D
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2015 at 12:18 AM by barrister »

Offline tony

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #96 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 08:16 AM »

That's why I'm not a member of any sect.

i was born Roman Catholic, will die a catholic, although you can classify me as not devout one...
the most exciting part of any mass for me is when the priest gives his homily/sermons based on the Gospel, there are lessons to be learned.....
the RC church has also corruptions from within, after all tao lang ding ang mga kasapi...
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2015 at 11:36 AM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline barrister

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #97 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 11:18 AM »
.... pangalawa patay ang pastor/pari/ministro (walang perang pambili ng pagkain - alangan naman magbusiness ang pastor - ano un mamangka sa dalawang ilog)... hindi na uso ngayon ang miracle na mag multiply ng tinapay at isda :) :) :)

No, hindi ganon yon sir.
 
Sa bibliya, ok lang na ang ministro ay kumuha ng kaunti sa abuloy para sa personal expenses niya.  Pero hindi totoo na bawal maghanapbuhay ang isang ministro para sa sarili niyang expenses.
 
Sa katunayan, nagbigay si Pablo ng halimbawa. 
 
Ang sabi niya, may karapatan siyang kumuha ng personal expenses sa abuluyan.  Pero pinili niya na hindi kumuha ng personal expenses sa abuluyan kahit karapatan naman niya iyon:
 
11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.
 
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
 
15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast. 16 For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel. (1 Cor. 9:11-18)

Ano ang dahilan ni Pablo?
 
Nagbibigay kasi siya ng halimbawa.  Ang prinsipyo sa bibliya, kung sino ang ayaw magtrabaho, huwag ding kumain. 
 
Kaya si Pablo ay may sariling trabaho.  Hindi siya kumukuha na lang ng pera sa abuloy, para lahat ng miyembro, pati ministro, ay gayahin siya na hindi umaasa na lang sa pera ng abuluyan:
 
7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.” (2 Thess. 3:7-10)
 
Yes, Paul had a day job.  Sa katunayan, hindi lang sideline na trabaho, mabigat na trabaho pa nga, araw at gabi ---  He "worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that he would not be a burden."
 
And what was that job?  He was a tradesman and tentmaker:
 
... Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.  (Acts 18:3-4)
 
 
==================================
 
 
Puwede bang kumuha ng personal expenses ang ministro sa abuluyan?  Puwede.
 
Pero bawal bang magtrabaho ang ministro para sa personal expenses kasi "namamangka siya sa dalawang ilog"?  Yon ang mali.
 
 
==================================
 
 
Hindi naman nakakapagtaka na ang mga miyembro ay hindi familiar sa mga sitas na yan.
 
Hindi tinuturo ni pastor, kasi hindi pabor sa kanya.   :D 
 
 
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2015 at 11:30 AM by barrister »

Offline tony

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #98 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 11:37 AM »
me narinig pa ako na sinabi ng isang pastor,
pag daw hindi ka nagbigay ng ikapu, ninanakawan mo ang Diyos......
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline barrister

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #99 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 11:40 AM »
Nasa biblya yon sir.

Kaya lang, mali ang interpretation nila.
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2015 at 11:40 AM by barrister »

Offline tony

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #100 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 11:50 AM »
alam ko nasa old testament, pero binago na ni Hesus ang mga yon di ba?
bakit ang daming namumulot ng mga sitas sa bible na pabor lang sa punto nla?
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline CeeV

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #101 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 11:59 AM »
dalawang method lang naman para maturuan ang mga miyembro magbigay
- blessed them and give them the true Word of God or salvation - good teaching
- teach them the prosperity Gospel or pay for your salvation - "when you give, expect in return/investment" or "when you give your soul will be delivered from hell" - bad teaching
Yep totally agree on the "BAD Teaching"    why do some  if not all sect/religion makes it appear that GOD isa vengeful one? Wherein He's the opposite.   
As well na parang ginagawa nilang Investment type ang kanilang Faith..if you gives more you expect more abundance in return???...tsk. tsk. yan tlaga nd ko magets.

Offline sirhc

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #102 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 12:02 PM »
bakit ang daming namumulot ng mga sitas sa bible na pabor lang sa punto nla?

The story of organized religion's life.
Never stop learning.

Offline CeeV

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #103 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 12:02 PM »
i was born Roman Catholic, will die a catholic, although you can classify me as not devout one...
the most exciting part of any mass for me is when the priest gives his homily/sermons based on the Gospel, there are lessons to be learned.....
the RC church has also corruptions from within, after all tao lang ding ang mga kasapi...

Boss parehas tayo ng line of thoughts....sabi ko was born a Catholic and will die as one, but that doesn't mean I would not listen or study other beliefs ..kahit anong recruit gawin nila saken...wala sila magagawa to my belief...Kaso nga am not as well a devout one kase andami ko din doubt sa Catholic practices.
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2015 at 12:03 PM by CeeV »

Offline CeeV

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #104 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 12:09 PM »
Kabisado ko na ang direksiyon ng debate niyan.

Si Kristo ay tao, hindi Diyos.  Di ba?  :D

hahaha...Mismo bossing...well isa lang yan.   And both of my uncle ung isa INC minister the other Catholic Priest wala sila magawa sa Grandfather ko......If my late Grandfather lang was  properly educated he could have done great things in life..born poor and died poor as well, (his choice kase napatapos naman nya lahat ang mga anak nya and nasa middle income group na mga offspring nya)

Offline tony

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #105 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 12:44 PM »
Boss parehas tayo ng line of thoughts....sabi ko was born a Catholic and will die as one, but that doesn't mean I would not listen or study other beliefs ..kahit anong recruit gawin nila saken...wala sila magagawa to my belief...Kaso nga am not as well a devout one kase andami ko din doubt sa Catholic practices.

marami rin naman matitinong turo ang simbahan ng RC......
marami rin naman maling gawain...ang kagandahan sa RC pwede mo
batikusin na hndi ka matitiwalag....
turned off ako pag ang usapan ay sila lang ang maliligtas, ikapu, abtp....
para akin masyadong incredible na halos nakakainsulto na sa intelligence,
yung para bang gusto na talagang makapanglamang....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline sovrain

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #106 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 01:42 PM »
^Got a friend, na ang sabi e, "kami lang daw ang maililigtas" na sasabayan ng pagtawa....ibig yatang sabihin e, pati sya ay di rin masyadong naniniwala sa kanyang sinabi....
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Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #107 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 03:11 PM »
me narinig pa ako na sinabi ng isang pastor,
pag daw hindi ka nagbigay ng ikapu, ninanakawan mo ang Diyos......
Nasa biblya yon sir.

Kaya lang, mali ang interpretation nila.

Bro Barrister, please share your thoughts on this matter.

Offline barrister

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #108 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 07:17 PM »
Pinapagod mo na naman ako sir ...  :D   mahaba na naman ang explanation ko diyan ...
 
First, the short answer:
 
Tithing is Mosaic Law for ancient Israelites.  It does not apply to Christians.
 
Now, for the long answer:
 
 
==================================
 
 
What is a tithe?  10% of everything you get?  Wrong.
 
 
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
 
23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.
 
24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:
 
25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:
 
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
 
27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. (Deut. 14: 22-27)

 
 
Ancient Israel had 12 tribes --- Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, and Benjamin.
 
Who receives tithes?  The Levites (the tribe of Levi).
 
Who gives tithes?  The remaining 11 tribes.
 
Why?  Because the Levites are a priestly tribe.  They do not have any property.  No land, no animals, no seed.  Therefore, the Levites must rely on the other 11 tribes for sustenance.
 
You are not an ancient Israelite.  Therefore, you do not have any obligation to tithe.  Your pastor is not an ancient Israelite form the tribe of Levi.  Therefore, he has no authority to receive tithes.
 
How much is the tithe?
 
10% of the increase of your agricultural produce.
 
You have 10 sheep.  After 1 year, you have 20 sheep.  You tithe 1 sheep (10% of the 10 new sheep), not 2.
 
In the same example, can you tithe 3 sheep?  No.  The law says 10%, which means exactly 10%; not more, not less.
 
Si pastor, pag less than 10%, bawal.  Pag more than 10%, sabi ni pastor --- Ay OK yon!  Lalong magaling!  :D     
 
You inherit a large amount of money from a dead grandmother.  Do you tithe 10%?  No. 
 
How much of your inheritance do you tithe?  Zero.  Inherited money is not an increase of agricultural harvest.
 
What do the Levites do with the tithe?
 
They consume only 90% of the tithe, but 10% of the tithe that they received must be tithed to God by giving it to the priests. 
 
25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord’s offering. 27 Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress. 28 In this way you also will present an offering to the Lord from all the tithes you receive from the Israelites.

From these tithes you must give the Lord’s portion to Aaron the priest. 29 You must present as the Lord’s portion the best and holiest part of everything given to you.’(Num. 18:25-29)

The Levites were not exempt from tithing. 
 
They receive 10% from the 11 tribes, then they give 10% of the 10% to the Levitical priests.
 
Does your church tithe 10% to its ministers, or does it just give them salaries that are much less than 10% of the total tithes?  :D
 
How often is the tithe paid?
 
Once a year.
 
Hindi naman siguro once a year lang ang tithing sa church ninyo?  ;)
 
At the end of 3 years, all of the tithes from the 11 tribes must be given away to the poor and to the local Levites.  None of it is brought to the temple for the Levitical priests:

28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
 
29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest. (Deut. 14: 28-29)


Does your church give away all of the tithes for year 3?  Or does it keep all of it for itself again?
 
If the tithe is not given in full, is that considered stealing from God?
 
Yes, if you are a part of the 11 tribes of Ancient Israel.  No, if you are a Christian:
 
8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’ “In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. (Mal. 3:8-9)

That was a law that applied only to Ancient Israel:
 
4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel. (Mal. 4:4)
 
The law was "for all Israel" only; Christians excluded.
 
What is the law for Christians?
 
Give voluntarily and cheerfully:
 
7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:“They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor; their righteousness endures forever.” (2 Cor. 9:7-9)

That's not tithing.  That's freely giving to those in need.
 
Tithing is compulsory and must be exactly 10%.  Fail to tithe correctly and you will be cursed.
 
But the cheerful giver can give any amount, so it's voluntary.  No curse, whether you give less or more than 10%.
 
Pero si pastor, sabi pag less than 10% ninanakawan mo ang Diyos.  Pero pag more than 10% --- Haya-hay!  No problem!  Mas lalong magaling, kasi babalik sa yo yan, siksik, liglig at umaapaw!  :D
 
 
===================================
 
 
Why do so many sects insist on applying the Old Testament law on tithing when it clearly does not apply to Christians?
 
Siyempre naman.  Ang laking pera non, ano... How can they resist?  :D
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2015 at 07:43 PM by barrister »

Offline zram18

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #109 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 07:30 PM »
nice explanation sir!

Offline tony

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #110 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 07:37 PM »
Quote
Why do so many sects insist on applying the Old Testament law on tithing when it clearly does not apply to Christians?
 
Siyempre naman.  Ang laking pera non, ano... How can they resist?  :D

you hit the nail on the head....my thoughts exactly...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline sovrain

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #111 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 07:58 PM »
Now I know...
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Offline barrister

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #112 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 08:01 PM »
Now I know...

Salamat at nakatulong....

Sanay kasi ako dun sa pag may pinaliwanag ako sa bibliya, may nagagalit sa akin.... :D
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2015 at 08:01 PM by barrister »

Offline sovrain

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #113 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 08:16 PM »
Baka yung nagagalit e nalaman nyang mali ang kanyang interpretasyon o yung pangaral sa kanya, ha ha ha
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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #114 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 08:30 PM »
Nagtatawanan kaming mag kakaibigan whenever we discuss religion particularly the INC because nga of the large amount of money it involves. Kaya naghahanap kami ng ma-amo na mukha among us to be head minister and start our own religion. ;D :D

Sa amin 8% lang monthly ;D ;D :D Kaya lipat na! :)
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Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #115 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 08:39 PM »
Nagtatawanan kaming mag kakaibigan whenever we discuss religion particularly the INC because nga of the large amount of money it involves. Kaya naghahanap kami ng ma-amo na mukha among us to be head minister and start our own religion. ;D :D

Sa amin 8% lang monthly ;D ;D :D Kaya lipat na! :)


Pwede,..
Religion has always been good business no matter what,...
Ayos yan,..

Offline barrister

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #116 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 09:17 PM »
Iglesia ni Cristo sues expelled minister for libel
Expelled minister Isaias Samson Jr, former editor in chief of the INC publication
Pasugo, earlier accused INC general auditor Glicerio Santos Jr of corruption
Katerina Francisco
Published 11:26 AM, July 27, 2015
Updated 11:38 AM, Jul 27, 2015
http://www.rappler.com/nation/100613-iglesia-ni-cristo-libel-isaias-samson-pasugo
 
 
INC members do not sue other INC members in court.
 
Para sa kanila, dapat hatulan sila internally, para ang judge ay kapwa nila INC member.  Kung magdedemandahan sa husgado, most likely ang judge ay hindi INC member, at hindi tama na ang dalawang tao na sa Diyos ay hahatulan ng isang judge na hindi sa Diyos.
 
In this case, baka ang reasoning ay tiwalag na naman si Samson, kaya hindi masasabi na sila ay nag file ng kaso laban sa isang kapatid.
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2015 at 09:18 PM by barrister »

Offline ABCmotorparts

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #117 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 10:40 PM »
Setting an example,..
Talagang flexing out muscles,...

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #118 on: Jul 27, 2015 at 11:26 PM »
Thank you very much Atty. Bro. barrister for those valuable insights.  :D  Pag-aralan ko mabuti yan. Hehe! Alam mo naman ako, mabagal ako sa study because madaming iniintindi. Hehe!

Offline dpogs

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Re: Non-Catholic
« Reply #119 on: Jul 28, 2015 at 12:10 AM »
@barrister : regarding the tithes and giving... you are right... it should not be imposed... members must not be required to give ... BUT a pastor/minister/priest must teach their member how to give... without money that church will not grow...

regarding naman sa pagiging Pastor and working at the same time... what i mean is business not entirely "not working"...

i applied that "ang hindi gumawa ay huwag kumain" in terms of a Pastor work... i always see a Pastor's work as "fulltime"... those who lead a flock and at the same have a business of his own for me is not an ideal image of a pastor... maiintindihan ko kapag nagsisimula pa lang o missionary pastor ka pa lang sa isang lugar still kakaunti pa lang ang members and members offerings is not enough to maintain church daily expenses ...medyo maiintindihan kung ang isang Pastor ay magtrabao matustusan lang ang pagkukulang...

but for me the main work of a fulltime Pastor is to lead people to God first and foremost... now if a Pastor didnt do his work - leading people to God - then wala talaga siyang makakain... walang miyembro na magbibigay ng offering...

ang tao kasi takot idea ng "giving", "offering"... allergic tayo sa term na ganito... na kapag ang isang simbahan nagtuturo ng ganito akala natin ay scam na lahat ng religion na nagtuturo ng "giving/offering". walang simbahan ngayon na mabubuhay kung ang miyembro nito ay hindi nagbibigay o kung ang pastor ay hindi itinuturo ang pagbibigay.
There is none righteous, no not one.