Topic: Pope Francis's Homily : May 22, 2013, re: salvation, non-believers

[sirhc]

Hi All,

Just would like to have a discussion regarding Pope Francis's homily last May 22, 2013 regarding salvation. You can read the whole article here,

http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheists-are-still-going-to-hell-says-vatican-spokesman-96734/

Being a non-active catholic, have been raised a catholic, I am taking a liking to this new pope for his view regarding salvation, particularly, from this statement;

"In his homily last week, Pope Francis pointed out that everyone, including atheists, has been redeemed by Christ and people can all work together through the "culture of encounter" to do good.
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!" said Pope Francis.
"If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."

This is a great advancement from previous teachings from "hardliner" catholics and theologians.

First point, Jesus's teaching is about humility, and for me, the Pope's teaching in this particular homily is a first step in reconciliation with other sects, and also atheists. Though obviously, different sects has conflicting beliefs regarding salvation, and others do not believe on salvation at all, it is a welcomed progress that the highest post on the roman catholic church is against condemnation of others with conflicting beliefs.

Second point, emphasis on "doing good" on general. I'm a firm believer in this philosophy, that you don't have to believe in some make believe being, or being a member of a religion to be "Good", and Pope Francis's statement that "Do Good = Salvation" is a great way of making sense in today's world where many sects advertises that only members of their religion will be saved.

Third point, I don't believe in an all knowing, all powerful, compassionate, merciful God, and yet have the guts to throw his "Children" to hell to suffer indefinitely. Where is the compassionate, merciful part in that? and in addition, isn't it that Jesus himself said that it is only God who has a right to Judge us? Then why are there many religion based on His teachings that claims that whoever is not with us will go to hell?

I just find it laughable that this Rev Thomas Rosica, had the face to "correct", as you may put it, the Pope. This Rev is the embodiment of what I dislike with the persons who runs the catholic church.

I'm just really amazed by Pope Francis's philosophy that it doesn't matter what our belief is, as long as we do good, for the common good, we will all meet there. talk about humility.

I do seriously hope that this is a start of something good for the roman catholic church, as an organisation itself. Its about time they have someone up their to really embody Jesus's teachings for someone to claim to be an authority regarding His teachings.

[Nelson de Leon]

It's a good start. And for me, as a believer who has faith, it's not as simple as doing good things, tapos na agad. (Disclaimer: for me only. Some may share my sentiments but I don't speak for all)
For me, doing good is only an effect of your faith and belief. Ginagawa mo yun for Christ.
Sa Atheist (ata) of course they are also helpful sa mga tao and community. Pero they do it for themselves. As a believer, for me, you do it for Christ.
Re salvation, alam ko there's a biblical verse na iba ang salvation for those who does not know the gospel. But yes, may salvation.

[sirhc]

haha. babalik nanaman tayo sa argument na you have to anchor your actions of goodness to a certain religion/belief, and for some persons, they don't need to believe in a higher being to do good.

CMIIW, I think you got it wrong when you say na Atheist do something good or something helpful because they do it for themselves. This ideology would paint Atheists as selfish, self serving persons.

Can't we look at the bigger picture, I think it would be better to say that we should do good for the sake of being "good". Yung tipong gagawin ko to dahil makaka contribute to sa kaayusan ng lahat? I think we'd make more sense if we look things that way.

I mean, that's just the way I look at things.

cheers,
sirhc

[leomarley]

Sa Atheist (ata) of course they are also helpful sa mga tao and community. Pero they do it for themselves. As a believer, for me, you do it for Christ.

with all due respect but i think this statement is very wrong. first, why would they do good for others if they're only looking after themselves? it's very contradicting. second, they know that they won't get anything in the afterlife since they know there's no afterlife so what are they after that would benefit them by doing good?

[Nelson de Leon]

with all due respect but i think this statement is very wrong. first, why would they do good for others if they're only looking after themselves? it's very contradicting. second, they know that they won't get anything in the afterlife since they know there's no afterlife so what are they after that would benefit them by doing good?

I guess you're right. Oo nga ano? You got me thinking. What would doing good do to them if they don't believe in the afterlife.

So what could be the answer to the question?

[Nelson de Leon]

haha. babalik nanaman tayo sa argument na you have to anchor your actions of goodness to a certain religion/belief, and for some persons, they don't need to believe in a higher being to do good.


Can't we look at the bigger picture, I think it would be better to say that we should do good for the sake of being "good". Yung tipong gagawin ko to dahil makaka contribute to sa kaayusan ng lahat? I think we'd make more sense if we look things that way.

I mean, that's just the way I look at things.

cheers,
sirhc

Di naman. I strongly believe na anyone can do good things whatever his belief is. I'm just pointing out the difference in my belief.


And of course maganda naman talaga yun gagawin mo ito para sa kauyusan ng lahat. No question. But again, kung ako naman ang gagawa nun, i would look at it as gagawin ko ito because of my faith and belief.
Though I think same action and effect, pero magka-iba lang ng intention.


Teka, nakagulo ata ako sa opinion ko.

[leomarley]

I guess you're right. Oo nga ano? You got me thinking. What would doing good do to them if they don't believe in the afterlife.

So what could be the answer to the question?

i consider myself as more of an agnostic humanist. most atheists i know have a humanists way of thinking as well. try to do good for the betterment of humanity.

[dpogs]

the pope just rephrase John 3:16 pero may kulang at dagdag....

[Quitacet]

I guess you're right. Oo nga ano? You got me thinking. What would doing good do to them if they don't believe in the afterlife.

So what could be the answer to the question?

Since there's no afterlife, doing good things for other people means those people will benefit from the act, instead of saying "magtiis ka at may buhay na walang hanggan na naghihintay sa iyo"