Topic: Question on the Holy Trinity

[barrister]

Atty, if the soul and spirit can be divided, first question is how do you differentiate the two? This is an interesting topic indeed. Is it that the soul is the kaluluwa and the spirit like how we use it in terms like "human spirit", "his spirit is down" etc? TIA!

It's good that you're interested.

The reason why I ask side questions in some of my posts is to attract some interest in the bible. I believe that's how you get people interested.  Hindi ko style yung tatanungin ka ng mga born-again, "Kapatid, ligtas ka na ba?  Guaranteed turn-off. 

In English, the human soul and the human spirit are the same.  The body is physical; the soul or spirit is non-physical.  The soul is called the seat of emotions, because the soul and the spirit are the same, meaning, non-physical.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/spirit

Other uses are only figurative, not literal.  For example, the spirit of the law; the spirit of cooperation; he is in good spirits; he is a kind soul.

The same is true in Filipino.  Ang espirito ng tao, pareho lang sa kaluluwa ng tao.  Espirito ng mga namatay; kaluluwa ng lolo kong namantay.  Figurative - ang espirito ng bayanihan; ang kaluluwa ng kultura.

But in the bible, the human soul and the human spirit are different.  The difference is not expressed in the English translation, that's why it becomes confusing.

Note that this a very advanced topic, so it will be a difficult study.  Don't be surprised that my views will be slightly different from sir dpogs', because that's to be expected if the topic is controversial.


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Let's start with the most basic explanation:

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7)

What was breathed into Adam's nostrils? The spirit, which is the breath of God. ---

4 The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. (Job 33:4)

3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils (Job 27:3)

As long as the breath/spirit is in you, you are alive; once the breath/spirit is no longer in you, you die.

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:4)

Therefore:

The body - was formed from the dust of the ground; it is the physical aspect;
The spirit - was given to the body by the breath of God; it is the non-physical aspect;
The soul - is the combination of body and spirit.  When Adam's body was given a spirit, he "became a living soul."

What happens when a man dies at the end of his natural lifetime?

His spirit goes back to God. His dead body decays and becomes dust. ---

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.  (Ecc. 12:7)


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Will the dead go to heaven immediately?  No, they have to wait for the resurrection when Christ returns.  In the meantime, they are simply unconscious:

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing... for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (Ecc. 9:5, 10)   

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:4)

Death is like a deep, dreamless, unconscious sleep.  That is why the bible refers to the dead as "sleeping."

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.  (Dan. 12:2)

“Why did I not perish at birth, and die as I came from the womb? ...For now I would be lying down in peace; I would be asleep and at rest with kings and rulers of the earth, who built for themselves places now lying in ruins (Job 3:11, 13, 14)

11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” (John 11:11-14)

[panzimus]

Ok atty. So wala pang soul before, only nung binigyan na tayo ng buhay dahil yun yung time na nagcombine na ang spirit at physical body natin. Now pagnamatay na, then andun na tayo kunyari sa resurection na part, soul and physical body yun? Kasama pa ba ang spirit?

[barrister]

Ok atty. So wala pang soul before, only nung binigyan na tayo ng buhay dahil yun yung time na nagcombine na ang spirit at physical body natin. Now pagnamatay na, then andun na tayo kunyari sa resurection na part, soul and physical body yun? Kasama pa ba ang spirit?

Depende sa resurrection.

Dalawa kasi ang resurrection.  First resurrection is for the saved.  They will resurrect with spiritual bodies.  Second resurrection is for the damned.  They will resurrect will mortal, physical bodies so they can be burned.


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First resurrection - spiritual bodies, no more second death (first death was when they died at the end of their natural lives).  This comes before the 1,000 years of peace:

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6)

Second resurrection - physical bodies, will die the second death (when they are thrown into the fire).  This comes after the 1,000 years of peace:

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:7-15)

[panzimus]

Ahhhh...got it. So those who will be ressurected na kasama sa 1st ressurection won't experience the 2nd death na. And of course they are alive during the 1000 years of peace. Now, during the 1000 years of peace, aside from those na kasama sa first ressurection, may kasama pa bang ibang tao (mortal)?

[barrister]

Lahat na ng tao yon sir. 

Dalawang grupo lang naman ang tao sa dalawang resurrection.  Yung maliligtas at hindi maliligtas.  Pag kasama ka sa maliligtas, sa 1st resurrection ka.  Pag hindi, sa 2nd resurrection ka.  Wala nang iba.

Kung interesado ka sir, pag-aralan mo ang iba-ibang sekta.  May iba-ibang categories pa sila. 

Merong nasa langit na raw ngayon, katulad ni Enoch and Elijah, hindi raw aabutan ng second coming, kasi matagal nang nasa langit, hindi pa pinapanganak si Hesus, nasa langit na raw nina Enoch at Elijah.

Merong naniniwala sa secret rapture, sekretong dudukutin daw sila papunta sa langit, bigla na lang daw maglalaho sa lupa.

Meron naman, mauuna daw sa langit ang 144,000.  Mga miyembro daw ng sekta nila yung 144,000, wala pang 1st resurrection, nandoon na raw sila. 

[panzimus]

Got it sir! Now kung yung matitira na di kasama sa 1st resurrection, yung mga di maliligtas, ano mangyayari sa kanila sa 1000 years of peace? And sa time na 1000 years of peace, asan ang mga kasama sa nailigtas? On earth din?

[barrister]

Lumalawak ang coverage natin.  Gugulo na nang gugulo yan.

Sa tingin ko, kailangan muna ng timeline, kahit partial lang, kasi mahirap talagang sundan pag walang kahit partial outline of events.

- The Great Tribulation, which will last for 3 1/2 years.
- Christ returns to earth.

- For those already dead at the time of Christ's return, there will only be two categories: (a) those who are saved, who will be part of the 1st resurrection at Christ's return, and (b) those who are damned, who will be part of the 2nd resurrection after the 1,000 years.
- Those saved who are dead at the time of Christ's return will resurrect with immortal bodies.
- Those saved who are alive at the time will change from mortal to immortal.
- Those who are not yet saved but alive at the time will remain mortal.

- The beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies make war against Christ and His army in the battle of Armageddon.
- Christ and His army win the battle.
- The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown into the fire.
- Satan is bound and imprisoned (but will be released for a short time after the 1,000 years).

- Christ establishes a world government.  Christ rules as King of Kings and Lord of Lords of His kingdom on earth.
- The immortals will rule with Christ for 1,000 years. 
- Now there is a perfect world government on earth for 1,000 years, and there will be peace and prosperity during that time.
- Some of those who remained mortal will survive the battle of Armageddon.  There will be only few mortal survivors, but they will repopulate the earth during the 1,000 years.

- After the 1,000 years, Satan is released, will deceive the nations of mortals, and will wage war against Christ again. Satan is defeated, all of his followers die, and Satan is thrown into the fire.
- Now comes the 2nd resurrection.  All of the damned will resurrect; they are judged; they are thrown into the fire.


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Now for your questions:

Got it sir! Now kung yung matitira na di kasama sa 1st resurrection, yung mga di maliligtas, ano mangyayari sa kanila sa 1000 years of peace? And sa time na 1000 years of peace, asan ang mga kasama sa nailigtas? On earth din?

Yung mga patay na hindi kasama sa 1st resurrection, during the 1,000 years of peace, patay pa rin sila.  They remain unconscious until they are resurrected in the 2nd resurrection.

Yes, nasa earth ang mga immortals sa 1,000 years of peace.

Ang mga patay na kasama sa 1st resurrection, at ang mga buhay na naging immortal, mga spirit beings na sila. Nasa earth din sila, kasama si Kristo.  They will be priests and kings over the nations.  They will reign with Christ over the earth for 1,000 years.

If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. (2 Tim. 2:20)

26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father. (Rev. 2:26-27)

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth. (Rev. 5:10)

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5)

[bumblebee]

That is why I've always been saying that if the spirit is burned by God, then he will be burning himself.

I believe that we only have one spirit because we all come form one source and that is God. The individualized spirit which stores our past and present experiences in the different lifetimes is the soul.

Is the spirit going back to the heaven generic? Meaning with no identity? If so, what happens to the identities of people who are saved? Are they preserved in some way?

[jerix]

Bro Bumble, i believe our individual identity is in the physical only. Souls are in itself part of the creator. hence, all identified with the creator. The soul or the individualized spirit is the substance that is from time to time is born again and again to gain and learn through the principle of cause and effect which is the thing called karma. The soul would become one with God and will no longer be reborn when it gains its spiritual sublimity.

[bumblebee]

The soul or the individualized spirit is the substance that is from time to time is born again to gain and learn through the principle of cause and effect which is the thing called karma. The soul would become one with God and will no longer be reborn when it gains its spiritual sublimity.

So generic nga?

[jerix]

So generic nga?

yes.

[bumblebee]

yes.

If that's the case, what's the point of being saved? Wala na yung consciousness mo e.

[jerix]

If that's the case, what's the point of being saved? Wala na yung consciousness mo e.

I personally dont have a strong belief kasi on that doctrine. Sa personal belief ko, we will just continuously brighten our souls through our experiences in various lifetimes until we become brilliant to deserve being in the company of our creator.

[bumblebee]

What do you mean by lifetimes? Reincarnation? But even if you are brilliant enough, you wouldn't know/remember who you are/were.

[barrister]

I personally dont have a strong belief kasi on that doctrine. Sa personal belief ko, we will just continuously brighten our souls through our experiences in various lifetimes until we become brilliant to deserve being in the company of our creator.

That's also salvation, although not in the Christian concept.


In Christianity, salvation means being saved from death.  It's always a life vs. death thing in Christianity.

But in Hinduism and other similar religions, salvation is moksha, meaning freedom or liberation from samsara, or the cycle of birth and rebirth. 

Once you are freed from the cycle, you achieve a state of absolute bliss where the perceiver, the perceived and the object of perception are all one and the same.

Therefore, man's objective should be a liberation from the cycle, which is moksha, which is salvation.  You achieve salvation by any of the three paths - Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga, and Karma Yoga. 

You yourself are God, because God is in everything and everyone, and you realize this once the illusion of the material world is removed.  The Atman (your soul) exists; the Brahman (essence of everything) is identical to the Atman; the Brahman is in you, because the Brahman is in everything.

Salvation or moksha allows you to be reunited with the Brahman.  As a drop of water that falls on an ocean is a merging of waters, the individual soul unites with the single essence that underlies everything.

[panzimus]

Thanks atty. sa pagsagot sa questions ko, that explains it.

And thanks din sa explanation ng concept of reincarnation. At least may idea na ko about what it is really about.

[jerix]

What do you mean by lifetimes? Reincarnation? But even if you are brilliant enough, you wouldn't know/remember who you are/were.

You said it. You cannot dig into your past lives using only your present consciousness, because it is limited with the affairs of the present. But there are times that some information of the past surfaces. That is when sometimes faces of people seem to be very familiar with you when in fact you only meet them now. Sometimes you seem to be very familiar also with places you only visited now.

This is very interesting topic --- but a little off tangent to the subject matter.

 

[bumblebee]

Thanks.

I'm thinking if only the spirit goes back to the Creator, then there's really no life after death, because technically, there's no more you.

[dpogs]

Thanks.

I'm thinking if only the spirit goes back to the Creator, then there's really no life after death, because technically, there's no more you.

Our soul still there, the essence of our humanity. Soul that will go either in eternal life (heaven) or eternal death (eternal destruction).

[bumblebee]

^So for you, spirit and soul are the same?

[dpogs]

^So for you, spirit and soul is the same?

No. Spirit is what connect our soul to God. Connection that have been severed by our fall from grace, when we became sinner. Its the one who gave us consciouness that there is God, but since our heart is exceedingly wicked, we choose not to believe in God, we choose to ignore His presence.  Thus, our soul will perished. That is why we need to be born again through the spirit.

[bumblebee]

So, which one (spirit or soul) goes back to the Creator? Or both?

[dpogs]

Spirit always belongs to God. Our soul, our very essence of existence will go to heaven (God) or go to hell.

[bumblebee]

Okay, thanks for that. Is the spirit just an empty shell? Does our spirit have consciousness as well? Si God, may soul din ba?

[jerix]

^So for you, spirit and soul are the same?

We do not have an independent existence just like God. We all came from him. The source of our being is God, through the beauty of his creation. For me, he transformed a little of him into something which is acknowledged as his likeness and image and that is called the soul. Just like the principle of water and ice. The water is the source but you can create another form when a drop of it is frozen. But this will return as water when it melts.

[barrister]

Sir jerix, what do you call your belief?

Is that Hinduism, Buddhism, New Age Movement, or something else?

[jerix]

Atty., mine is a combination of the different principles. 

[bumblebee]

We do not have an independent existence just like God. We all came from him. The source of our being is God, through the beauty of his creation. For me, he transformed a little of him into something which is acknowledged as his likeness and image and that is called the soul. Just like the principle of water and ice. The water is the source but you can create another form when a drop of it is frozen. But this will return as water when it melts.

That was for dpogs, actually. I think I understand where you're coming from already.

[barrister]

Atty., mine is a combination of the different principles. 

Thanks!

Not New Age?  Because New Age is a combination of the beliefs that are similar to a mix of Hinduism, Buddhism, Zen, etc.

New Age is itself eclectic.  It is not a fixed system.  It's a spirituality that is not confined by fixed dogmas.  It does not like rigid doctrines, but prefers an inclusive spirituality without borders, with acceptance of different personal perspectives as being equally valid.

[majoe]

No, hindi ganon yon sir.

Ang image, ibig sabihin likeness.  If the Father is spirit, the Son is also spirit.  Ang sabi sa Col.1:15, the Son is the image of the invisible God.  If the Father is by nature invisible, then the Son is also by nature invisible.

Siyempre, pag anak ng tao, tao rin.  Anak ng aso, aso rin.  Anak ng Diyos, Diyos din.  Invisible ang Ama, invisible din ang Anak.

The Son is the only begotten.

Angels can be called sons of God, humans can be called sons of God.  But none of them can be called "only begotten son."

Exception lang na ang mga tao ay tawaging children of God.  Kasi by adoption lang yon.  Kaya nga walang taong puwedeng tawaging bugtong na anak ng Diyos.

ok lang sir kung magkaiba tayo ng paniniwala dito. naniniwala kasi ako sa concept ng trinity.
basis ko kasi ay we are created in God's image and likeness.  kung ang Diyos ay trinidad, ganun din ang tao.

ang dami kasing sinasabing spirit sa bible kaya nakakalito. may evil spirit, alak may spirit din, at may iba iba pang spirits na napalabas sa tao. ibig sabihin ba ay babalik lahat yan sa Diyos?

at kung spirit ang kalagayan ng Diyos Anak, bakit may sinasabi sa bible na spirit of the Lord, spirit of God? lalabas kasi ay may spirit ang isang spirit ? pero kung tinutukoy mo ay spiritual body si Christ, baka di lang tayo nagkakaintindihan.

paniniwala ko kasi, spiritual body o glorified body meron si Christ, may form kaya sa Kanya nag mamanifest ang image ng Diyos Ama.  parang sa tao din, pag nakita mo halimbawa ang anak ng kumpare mo, sasabihin mo na parang nakita mo na rin sa kanya yung kumpare mo.