Author Topic: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna  (Read 43439 times)

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Online bumblebee

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #90 on: Sep 28, 2015 at 07:17 PM »
When I went to college, to my surprise, it was Bonifacio who was considered as the "real" National Hero. Why? Rizal was part of the elite, who wanted the Philippines to be a province of Spain while Bonifacio fought for independence.

IIRC, during the voting for national hero, it was between Rizal and Marcelo H. Del Pilar. Rizal allegedly won because he had a more dramatic death.
« Last Edit: Sep 28, 2015 at 07:19 PM by bumblebee »

Offline dpogs

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #91 on: Sep 28, 2015 at 08:45 PM »
Bakit di na lang si Lapu-lapu gawing national hero
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline tony

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #92 on: Sep 28, 2015 at 09:02 PM »
When I went to college, to my surprise, it was Bonifacio who was considered as the "real" National Hero. Why? Rizal was part of the elite, who wanted the Philippines to be a province of Spain while Bonifacio fought for independence.

IIRC, during the voting for national hero, it was between Rizal and Marcelo H. Del Pilar. Rizal allegedly won because he had a more dramatic death.

the two novels of Rizal was a catalyst and inspired Bonfacio to start the revolutionary movement.....
Rizal was against a bloody revolution, his vision for the youth is to get them educated.....
he thought that we were not ready at the time....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #93 on: Sep 28, 2015 at 09:11 PM »
Well, since we're discussing history here, let it be known that Antonio Luna was actually not for the revolution against Spain. He was also not a Katipunero at the onset (he joined in 1898, a couple of years later, when the Spaniards were already on their denouement).

He also did not win a single battle (same as Bonifacio), whereas, Aguinaldo had the distinction of eliminating the Spaniards from all of Cavite, as far as the border towns of adjacent provinces. This is the reason why the Kawit Battalion was held in high regard back then. Heneral Luna didn't care for this reputation at all,  since he was trained in military tactics abroad. And there lies the first source of conflict in Luna's short military career.

Offline DViant

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #94 on: Sep 28, 2015 at 09:25 PM »
Makes you wonder how come all our pre-American Filipino heroes are held to such lofty ideals even if they never won the war.
« Last Edit: Sep 28, 2015 at 09:36 PM by DViant »

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #95 on: Sep 28, 2015 at 09:28 PM »



With how Rizal & Ninoy is being promoted you'd think they were unicorns.

What both had in common are ideals which better suit a modern Philippines: an intellectual and pacifist approach against subjugation.

While both did not really start revolutions, their actions (and subsequent martyrdom) were the cause for revolutions to begin. Bonifacio would not have formed the Katipunan had he not read Noli and Fili and been part of La Liga Filipina. The events culminating in the EDSA Revolution would not have started had the opposition not been galvanized and united beginning with the August Twenty-One Movement (ATOM).

Bonifacio, Heneral Luna, et al, fought and led battles against foreign oppressors. Their unfortunate fates, losing the war and being felled by countrymen and not by foreigners, make theirs a complex case for being declared THE national hero.

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #96 on: Sep 28, 2015 at 09:38 PM »
Makes you wonder how come all our pre-American Filipino heroes never won the war.
They were just about a year away (in mid-1898) from ridding Luzon of the Spaniards. The Americans came in at the right moment. They would not have been able to kick the Spaniards out had it not been for the gains of the Katipuneros.

Offline halvert

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #97 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 01:48 AM »
Off topic... he was 8 years old when he allegedly wrote the poem. Even if he was from Laguna he was educated in Spanish, the language of the richer elite classes. Not to mention translations solely credited to him could have had collaborators on the project. Back then wala pang auto correct. ;)

The veracity of both claims seems to be justified and hence difficult to ascertain. However, most historians agree that a majority of Filipinos were unaware of Rizal during his lifetime,[79] as he was a member of the richer elite classes (he was born in an affluent family, had lived abroad for nearly as long as he had lived in the Philippines) and wrote primarily in an elite language (at that time, Tagalog and Cebuano were the languages of the masses) about ideals as lofty as freedom (the masses were more concerned about day to day issues like earning money and making a living, something which has not changed much today).[80]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Rizal#Made_national_hero_by_Emilio_Aguinaldo
Ref:

80 ^ Zaide, Gregorio and Sonia (1999). Jose Rizal: Life, Works, and Writings of a Genius, Writer, Scientist and National Hero. Quezon City: All Nations publishing Co. Inc. ISBN 971-642-070-6.

If the education in Grade 3 is so so for dpogs' kid today what more those of Rizal over 140 years ago?

The fluency and sophistication of the Tagalog used in the poem also do not match Rizal's grasp of the language. Although Rizal's native tongue was Tagalog, his early education was all in Spanish. In the oft-quoted anecdote of the moth and the flame from Rizal's memoir, the children's book he and his mother were reading was entitled El Amigo de los Niños, and it was in Spanish.[11] He would later lament his difficulties in expressing himself in Tagalog. In 1886, Rizal was in Leipzig working on a Tagalog translation of Friedrich Schiller's William Tell, which he sent home to his brother Paciano. In the accompanying letter, Rizal speaks of his difficulty finding an appropriate Tagalog equivalent of Freiheit (freedom), settling on kalayahan. Rizal cited Del Pilar's translation of his own essay as his source for kalayahan.[2][10] Rizal also attempted to write Makamisa (the intended sequel to El filibusterismo) in Tagalog, only to give up after only ten pages and start again in Spanish.[2][3]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa_Aking_Mga_Kabata#Authenticity

Reference:

11 ^José Rizal (under the pseudonym P. Jacinto). "Chapter 8: My First Reminiscence". Memoirs of a Student in Manila.

2 ^Ambeth Ocampo (August 22, 2011). "Did young Rizal really write poem for children?".

10 ^José Rizal to Paciano Rizal (October 12, 1886; 40-11 Albertstrasse, Leipzig). I lacked many words, for example, for the word Freiheit or liberty. The Tagalog word kaligtasan cannot be used, because this means that formerly he was in some prison, slavery, etc. I found in the translation of Amor Patrio the noun malayá, kalayahan that Marcelo del Pilar uses. In the only Tagalog book I have — Florante — I don't find an equivalent noun.

3 ^Paul Morrow (July 16–31, 2011). "Something fishy about Rizal poem" (PDF). The Pilipino Express (The Pilipino Express Inc.) 7 (14): 1–33.
Rizal had difficulties in some Tagalog words like kalayaan, back when the concept was still a dream for indios but he wrote to paciano in Tagalog.  He also wrote secret letters to del Pilar in Tagalog as an added layer of protection from prying eyes. And probably like most of us, he was fluent in Tagalog but his education just made it easier to write novels in Spanish. Conrado de quiros is fluent in Tagalog but he admits he's more comfortable writing in English. He said if he wrote in Tagalog the way he spoke, it would be like salitang kanto.
His Tagalog letters are published
here I am browsing [Column: Rizal’s open secrets | John Nery | Newsstand]. Have a look at it! https://johnnery.wordpress.com/2012/09/02/column-rizals-open-secrets/
« Last Edit: Sep 29, 2015 at 02:00 AM by halvert »

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #98 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 02:26 AM »
Rizal had difficulties in some Tagalog words like kalayaan, back when the concept was still a dream for indios but he wrote to paciano in Tagalog.  He also wrote secret letters to del Pilar in Tagalog as an added layer of protection from prying eyes. And probably like most of us, he was fluent in Tagalog but his education just made it easier to write novels in Spanish. Conrado de quiros is fluent in Tagalog but he admits he's more comfortable writing in English. He said if he wrote in Tagalog the way he spoke, it would be like salitang kanto.
His Tagalog letters are published
here I am browsing [Column: Rizal’s open secrets | John Nery | Newsstand]. Have a look at it! https://johnnery.wordpress.com/2012/09/02/column-rizals-open-secrets/
After the reveal on "Sa Aking Mga Kabata"... I hold suspect any document attributed to him.

His Tagalog is probably as good as his English but not as good as his German or Spanish. :)

Stinky fish my pwit. lolz

Offline DViant

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #99 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 02:28 AM »
They were just about a year away (in mid-1898) from ridding Luzon of the Spaniards. The Americans came in at the right moment. They would not have been able to kick the Spaniards out had it not been for the gains of the Katipuneros.

Ask any racer. Any real racer. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning.

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #100 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 02:59 AM »
Ask any racer. Any real racer. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning.
It isn't a race, it's a revolution.

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #101 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 06:32 AM »
the two novels of Rizal was a catalyst and inspired Bonfacio to start the revolutionary movement.....
Rizal was against a bloody revolution, his vision for the youth is to get them educated.....
he thought that we were not ready at the time....

I don't know about that. For sure, the novels had its effects on society but El Fili is about a failed "revolution", anchored on vengeance, meaning Rizal was against it. And Bonifacio didn't "start" the KKK, he was one of the founding members and became it's 3rd leader.

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #102 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 08:45 AM »
well Rizal's two novels represent what i call Rizal's ideologies to which i subscribe...

looking at what is happening in the middle east today and even n our backyard, is war, killing, raping and pillage really the answer?

do we entrust the rebuilding of our country to those that were responsible to its ruin in the first place?
this is the biggest reason why i am opposed to Marcos's return to power, enough is enough....
« Last Edit: Sep 29, 2015 at 08:48 AM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #103 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 08:47 AM »
It isn't a race, it's a revolution.

well we all know the American prevaled in the end...so to me it is more of an insurrection than a revolution...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline skoivan

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #104 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 11:01 AM »
Food for thought: http://opinion.inquirer.net/88834/two-lunas-two-mabinis

^ An article by renowned Philippine historian Ambeth Ocampo recounting a conversation he had with the eminent Philippine historian Teodoro A. Agoncillo on the topic of Luna, Aguinaldo, Mabini, and related subjects.

Quote
TAA: ...I’m not pro-Aguinaldo or pro-Bonifacio. I judge a person on the basis of the documents available. If the time comes that I am proved wrong and other documents are shown, then I’ll accept it. Conclusions are not final, because nobody can say that I have exhausted all my sources. No! Ang anti-Aguinaldo si Vivencio Jose, masyadong pro-Luna. This is the kind of thinking I do not like...

...[Jose] suppressed the documents. It’s all right if it is a question of interpretation, but the trouble is he suppressed. Kahit na kasalanan ni Luna, he is trying to suppress [the documentation]. Example: the letter of Mabini to Aguinaldo denouncing Luna. Hindi niya binanggit. The letter of Baldomero [Aguinaldo] to [Emilio] Aguinaldo denouncing Luna? Hindi niya inilagay. Ang sabi lang niya, naiinggit lang iyong mga taong attacked.

Offline tenderfender

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #105 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 11:12 AM »
^a respective historian he may be but teodoro agoncillo is related to don felipe agoncillo, who represented aguinaldo in the treaty of paris as well as marcela agoncillo, whom aguinaldo commissioned to serve as the principal seamstress of the Philippine flag

so go figure.  >:D

"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions"

Offline tony

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #106 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 11:17 AM »
unfortunately, we were all not there when it happened, so the jury is still out...;)

we have written legacies from Mabini and Rizal but i do not know any written literature from General Luna,
what i know about him are from accounts....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #107 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 11:18 AM »
^^^ Funny it was also mentioned in the inquirer article...went to see this movie a couple of nights ago with my wife & kids, on our way out of the cinema after the screening I heard a couple in their early 20s in front of us talking, the guy said "Bakit nakaupo lang si Mabini sa buong movie?" tsk tsk tsk
« Last Edit: Sep 29, 2015 at 11:19 AM by deist »

Offline tony

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #108 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 11:20 AM »
how sad.....that one puzzled Epi Quizon no end.....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #109 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 11:23 AM »
^ the saddest part is when his girlfriend replied: "Ang alam ko naaksidente sya nung bata"  >:(

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #110 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 12:13 PM »
^a respective historian he may be but teodoro agoncillo is related to don felipe agoncillo, who represented aguinaldo in the treaty of paris as well as marcela agoncillo, whom aguinaldo commissioned to serve as the principal seamstress of the Philippine flag

Yet his stances when it comes to history are nonpartisan:

"While Aguinaldo is not personally involved in the death of either Luna or Andres Bonifacio, he should be held to account for the behavior which he did not order investigated. Why did he not order the investigation of those people who assassinated Luna? That was his responsibility."

"I’m not pro-Aguinaldo or pro-Bonifacio. I judge a person on the basis of the documents available. If the time comes that I am proved wrong and other documents are shown, then I’ll accept it." --- which is why I think he has gained and earned the reputation of being the eminent Philippine historian... because he bases his works on fact; and in cases where there is critical thinking required, still attempts to be as methodological as possible.

"Minamana mong sabihin na si Luna was the leader of the revolution against Spain? P-ñeta! Since when did Luna fight against the Spaniards? He never fought the Spaniards, tapos sasabihin niyang leader? As a matter of fact, Luna was a traitor to the Revolution of 1896!" --- feeling ko ang lutong nung P-ñeta! niya :P

My biggest takeaway from this article is how Vivencio Jose's book on Antonio Luna is apparently colored with bias. If there are indeed official documents that have been dismissed by him because they don't align to his pro-Luna stance, then that is unfortunate and dampens my excitement for Heneral Luna, which is a really good film by local standards, and one that an excellent message.

Offline tenderfender

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #111 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 12:24 PM »
^this was ambeth ocampo quoting agoncillo back in 1984

the geocentric system and the flat earth were the prevailing cosmological views during the Middle Ages, the abakada was our old school alphabet, etc. (of course, there is a saying, nothing beats old school pero in this case... ;) )

too bad wala na si agoncillo at this present day and age to mete out a judgment on this Heneral Luna portrayal  :(

« Last Edit: Sep 29, 2015 at 12:28 PM by tenderfender »
"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions"

Offline skoivan

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #112 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 12:55 PM »
the geocentric system and the flat earth were the prevailing cosmological views during the Middle Ages
Yes, and in that changed because of empirical evidence that showed otherwise.

Are you saying that in between Ambeth and Teodoro's 1984 conversation, new documents/facts have surfaced that you think would have changed TAA's opinion that Jose's work on Luna was biased?

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #113 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 01:41 PM »
Yes, and in that changed because of empirical evidence that showed otherwise.

Are you saying that in between Ambeth and Teodoro's 1984 conversation, new documents/facts have surfaced that you think would have changed TAA's opinion that Jose's work on Luna was biased?

i wouldn't know. am not a qualified historian. most probably a chismoso which is why i linked agoncillo to aguinaldo as well as luna and the cojuangco wealth  ^-^  >:D

and again, there's this:

What we (still) don’t know about Antonio Luna
http://opinion.inquirer.net/88960/what-we-still-dont-know-about-antonio-luna

(of course john nery is not a renato constanino nor an agoncillo)
« Last Edit: Sep 29, 2015 at 01:44 PM by tenderfender »
"Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions"

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #114 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 01:53 PM »
ok. I just didn't know what point you were trying to make and where you were coming from.

Offline tony

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #115 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 05:02 PM »
i know General Luna studied in a military academy in Europe, that explains why he was our best general...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #116 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 08:18 PM »
well we all know the American prevaled in the end...so to me it is more of an insurrection than a revolution...
That's how Americans view the Philippine-American War in their history books until it was politically incorrect to call it that.

So they upgraded it from insurrection to war.

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #117 on: Sep 29, 2015 at 08:58 PM »
^a respective historian he may be but teodoro agoncillo is related to don felipe agoncillo, who represented aguinaldo in the treaty of paris as well as marcela agoncillo, whom aguinaldo commissioned to serve as the principal seamstress of the Philippine flag

so go figure.  >:D



I was reading on the Balingiga massacre and it describes Agoncillo as a Marxist.

Googling 'Teodoro Agoncillo marxist' yields this link from an Opus Dei website that describes Agoncillo as....

The author is not, strictly speaking, a marxist historian but a philomarxist writer. One thing definite, however, is that he is anti-Catholic.

His superficiality and lack of scientific rigor shows clearly that even his knowledge of marxist philosophy is limited to paying lip service to the said ideology. His marxism is that of an essayist, or a journalistic and naive type of marxism; lacking all scientific and philosophical rigor which can be found in some of the more orthodox marxist authors.

Thus, ideologically, Agoncillo (and the co-author, Milagros Guerrero) could be considered as the typical 19th century liberal thinker with the usual characteristics: anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, blindly nationalistic, deistic and rationalistic, and with many traits and similarities to masonic-inspired ideologies. The liberal thinkers of today easily fall prey to a superficial Marxist ideology, or at least they openly sympathize with it. In the decadent age of the late sixties and early seventies, it became a fad to espouse marxist philosophies and foster such socialist causes. Greatly affected were some intellectual groups from the University of the Philippines. This unfortunately is the case of our authors (henceforth, they will be referred to only as one author in this study, using the name of the principal writer: Teodoro Agoncillo).

The methodology followed is to make a more or less detailed chapter-by-chapter analysis of the 29 chapters in the 4th edition (1973). (In the 5th edition, 1977, he adds a 30th chapter called Under Martial Law, which is purposedly left out in this critique since it does not really add anything substantial to the treatment of the topic in the latter part of Chapter 29 of the previous edition).

Sometimes, chapters have been grouped together with some general comments or observations. The chapters are divided into units, by numbering the titled headings, in order to facilitate references.

Some of the "units" can be read —or for that matter, some entire chapters save for one or two units within that chapter— without producing any direct harm on the mature reader who has a minimum of intellectual formation. By this is meant that he must at least have a good grounding in Catholic Doctrine and some exposure to serious historical readings. The reading of the aforementioned parts of the book is of course only justified in the case of those students for whom it is used as a prescribed textbook.

Offline tony

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #118 on: Sep 30, 2015 at 06:46 AM »
well, the American GOP stops short in calling President Obama a Marxist.....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

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Re: Jerrold Tarog's Heneral Luna
« Reply #119 on: Sep 30, 2015 at 08:19 AM »
70M++ nagastos dito? di halata.  Di ko ma gets what the fuss is all about.  Siguro sya na pinakamaganda sa mga pinalalabas lately.  Napakalayo sa tipo ng oro plata mata.

Daming miscast, catsup, archie, that guy playing quezon, mylene , the journalist etc

At bakit dapat i-require to sa paaralan?  Puro P.I. maririnig, showing a brash and arrogant main character.

Pinakita tamad at duwag mga pinoy.  So?  Alam na yan. 







are you by any chance a film producer? :D
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....