Author Topic: Should churches be taxed?  (Read 9704 times)

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Offline Klaus Weasley

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Should churches be taxed?
« on: Sep 29, 2014 at 05:23 PM »
Being a democratic country, we're supposed to have a separation of Church and State. Of course, this kind of thing is very much just a suggestion in our country since the Catholic Church pretty much meddles in politics and public policy all the time. But one thing they love about the separation of Church and State is the fact that they're exempted from paying taxes.

I personally don't mind churches not paying taxes....as long as they don't use ANY of their money to interfere with politics and public policy. They should NOT be allowed to publicly endorse or publicly condemn ANY political candidates or try to hire lawyers to fight public policy. Doing so makes their organization political and therefore SHOULD be taxed.

My personal stand is: Churches should be taxed if they spend their money on politics and interfering with public policy.

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #1 on: Sep 29, 2014 at 08:09 PM »
Pwede siguro i-tax if they use the funds for income generating projects. Di ba, kaya nga walang tax kasi non-profit organization? Tama ba ang pagkaka-intindi ko?

Offline DVD_Freak

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #2 on: Sep 29, 2014 at 08:21 PM »
Being a democratic country, we're supposed to have a separation of Church and State. Of course, this kind of thing is very much just a suggestion in our country since the Catholic Church pretty much meddles in politics and public policy all the time. But one thing they love about the separation of Church and State is the fact that they're exempted from paying taxes.

I personally don't mind churches not paying taxes....as long as they don't use ANY of their money to interfere with politics and public policy. They should NOT be allowed to publicly endorse or publicly condemn ANY political candidates or try to hire lawyers to fight public policy. Doing so makes their organization political and therefore SHOULD be taxed.

My personal stand is: Churches should be taxed if they spend their money on politics and interfering with public policy.

Sounds more like a personal hate for the church than an objective suggestion.  Tama si sir Nelson, you can tax the church for income generating projects which is basically what taxation means.  You cannot tax them for using funds on politics and interfering with public policy.   In essence you are taxing expenses.  You only tax income.

Offline leomarley

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #3 on: Sep 29, 2014 at 10:07 PM »
agree or not, Religion is mostly, if not all, for profit.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #4 on: Sep 29, 2014 at 10:23 PM »
NO
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Offline pekspert

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #5 on: Sep 29, 2014 at 10:30 PM »
Paki-alamero kasi yang mga local churches sa state. If they act the way they do then YES they should be taxed.

You never hear news about the catholic church in other countries telling the govt what to do. They just keep quiet and preach about things in church and not in media.
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Offline RU9

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #6 on: Sep 29, 2014 at 10:32 PM »
The church is a business. The church charges money for services.  Yes, they should be taxed.

(Definition of business: An organization or economic system where goods and services are exchanged for one another or for money) www.businessdictionary.com

Offline Verbl Kint

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #7 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 12:23 AM »
You cannot tax them for using funds on politics and interfering with public policy.   In essence you are taxing expenses.  You only tax income.

In as much as I am not a fan of organized religion, I would still have to admit the post above is true.  Let's not limit the discussion to just Christian religious groups, though, as we should be all-inclusive.

In my limited knowledge of the subject, I think a religious organization should be exempt from taxes provided that it is truly not-for-profit.  As soon as that organization cannot prove non-profit status then it should be taxed like any business.

Doesn't the BIR review this tax exemption regularly?

Offline dpogs

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #8 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 01:49 AM »
The church is a business. The church charges money for services.  Yes, they should be taxed.

(Definition of business: An organization or economic system where goods and services are exchanged for one another or for money) www.businessdictionary.com

be specific... not all church charge money for service...

TS should be more specific sa Title... it should be "Catholic Church"...

ang catholic church nagrerequire ng bayad kapag may ikakasal, binyag, patay at iba... (though tawag nila dito "donation" daw)...

if a church requires its member (make it mandatory - para hindi magmukhang mandatory sasabihin 'donation') to pay for its service then hindi totoo ang church na iyan... yan ang dapat na patawan ng tax...

sa pagkakaaalam ko.... if you dont have at least 22K hindi ka maaaring ikasal sa St. Agustin church...
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Offline dodie

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #9 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 02:19 AM »
paano magsusurvive ang isang relihiyon kung walang mag aabuloy na mga tagasunod nito? before i was irked by the way churches of diff religion interfere with the works of the state, its political nature and also in its economic affairs.....but church meddling on govt affairs was best describe by a jesuit, i dont recall if its bernas! " if it affects my flock, then i have every reason to be involve in order to protect their welfare"
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Offline dpogs

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #10 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 02:56 AM »
one function of the church is to produce a law abiding citizen... but as of this day... ang napoproduce ng Catholic church ay corrupt politician...

sa pagkakaintindi ko kasi ng church separation is that there must be no law favoring a particular religion, or batas na ipagbawal ang religion... and that leader of the church must not intervene or dictate the government what to do... or church leader must not dictate their member who to vote and church as whole must not solicite, ask or even trade money from the government or any other insituttion.

pero walang sinasabi na ang mga member ay tumahimik na lamang at maging sunudsunuran sa government... mas safe kong sabihin na huwag dapat makilama ang mga church leaders ... especially "CBCP" sa mga affair ng government or even dictate its member who to vote tulad ng Iglesia ni Kristo...

to maintain purity of both institution... civil/state and church ... no church leader must seek government position vice versa...

at sa usaping pera... hindi dapat humihingi o nirerequire ng church leader ang kanilang members na magbigay... it should be voluntary (para naman majustify ang pagiging tax free nito)...

a church (especialy catholic church) should be tax base sa mga hinihingi nilang service fee - wedding, baptismal, burial etc...

There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline Hammerheart

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #11 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 04:24 AM »
agree or not, Religion is mostly, if not all, for profit.

I totally agree. All religious leaders wouldn't be there if not for money. Sino ba sa kanila ang hindi de kotse? Or magarang bahay, meron ba? It's all about money. People will do everything to buy their place in "heaven", religious leaders are there to make sure they pay for it. Sad but true.

Offline dpogs

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #12 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 05:08 AM »
I totally agree. All religious leaders wouldn't be there if not for money. Sino ba sa kanila ang hindi de kotse? Or magarang bahay, meron ba? It's all about money. People will do everything to buy their place in "heaven", religious leaders are there to make sure they pay for it. Sad but true.

Not "ALL"... some of them are with pure heart and mission and simply bless by God both spiritually and materially....

and "MOST" of them blessed by Satan... i think you mean by "ALL" are those who were blessed by Satan.... :)
There is none righteous, no not one.

Offline paolorenzo

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #13 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 07:16 AM »
I'm sure Mother Theresa (Blessed Teresa of Calcutta, M.C) didn't do her missionary work for profit.  I'd caution some people from making sweeping statements, and generalizing ALL to be driven by money.

Offline DVD_Freak

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #14 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 08:16 AM »
In as much as I am not a fan of organized religion, I would still have to admit the post above is true.  Let's not limit the discussion to just Christian religious groups, though, as we should be all-inclusive.

In my limited knowledge of the subject, I think a religious organization should be exempt from taxes provided that it is truly not-for-profit.  As soon as that organization cannot prove non-profit status then it should be taxed like any business.

Doesn't the BIR review this tax exemption regularly?

AFAIK bro... religious groups, charitable institutions, non-profit organizations, etc. would always be tax exempt unless proven otherwise.  Inaaudit pa rin ang said groups every year and they are still required to file their ITR every year just like any business though yun taxes paid naman is zero.  Meron sinusuggest si Kim Henares na instead of giving these groups/organizations tax-free exemptions for life, gusto niya every 3 years nirerenew yun tax-exempt status.

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #15 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 08:17 AM »
The church is a business. The church charges money for services.  Yes, they should be taxed.

(Definition of business: An organization or economic system where goods and services are exchanged for one another or for money) www.businessdictionary.com

Exactly. Kung walang exchange of goods or services, wala ata dapat i-tax.

Question, yun mga pastors alam ko may allowance or salary. And alam ko, they are also taxed. What is your take?

Offline DVD_Freak

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #16 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 08:38 AM »
Exactly. Kung walang exchange of goods or services, wala ata dapat i-tax.

Question, yun mga pastors alam ko may allowance or salary. And alam ko, they are also taxed. What is your take?

Even if may salary sir if papatak naman siya sa minimum wage, wala nang tax yan.  About the exchange of goods and services, it doesn't necessarily follow dapat may tax.  The exchange can still exist with the money received, used for paying the church's expenses.

Remember non-profit means it should not be run like your normal business.  The non-profit organization may use garage sales, church donations or any other fund-raising endeavor...or yun sinasabi nga na exchange of goods and services for profit.  But this so called profit is used to pay for the various expenses to maintain the church and pay the staff's salaries sa parish office.
« Last Edit: Sep 30, 2014 at 08:49 AM by DVD_Freak »

Offline dodie

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #17 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 09:09 AM »
anything that pertains to religion or any discussion about it is a polarazing exchage of opinions. but still here's my take on it.
    i just dont believe the idea that we talk about the church as something as economics. kung ang isang nagsusuri o pumupuna sa isang simbahan ay hindi nito kasapi o walang anumang relihiyon,  maaring ito ay may basehan pero hindi nagangahulugan na siya ay tama. at kung ikaw naman ay kasapi, mababaw ang iyong paniniwala sa dyos. alam natin na ang pangunahing serbisyo ng simbahan ay pagtulong sa mga kasapi nito sa pinansyal at spiritwal na pamamaraan. but the church are governed by people who are exposed to worldy sins too and they are just human to succumb to pressures in life. our faith are not based on the people the governed our church because if it is, ang tingin mo dito ay parang isang organisasyon lamang na ang iyong pagsangayon o pagsapi ay dineditermina ng mga namumuno dito. faith should transend the institution per se.  the divinity of the lord that we believe in is beyond question, we may be indifferent with the way our church leader manage its flocks, but at the end of the day, we follow. if you dont, you just get out!
and also i dont like the idea that mentioning the "catholic chuch" producing corrupt politicians. unang una, ang simbahan ay hindi isang paaralan na may entrance exam para mapili mo ang mga papasok dito. it is open to everyone, preaches to everyone help those who ask for it. kasalanan ba ng simbahan kung hindi nila maalis ang sungay ng mga politiko?
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Offline RU9

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #18 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 09:56 AM »

Remember non-profit means it should not be run like your normal business.  The non-profit organization may use garage sales, church donations or any other fund-raising endeavor...or yun sinasabi nga na exchange of goods and services for profit.  But this so called profit is used to pay for the various expenses to maintain the church and pay the staff's salaries sa parish office.

The business is very profitable:



More:

http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/226430/news/nation/bishop-who-got-pcso-funds-was-a-top-ayala-stockholder

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #19 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 10:56 AM »
Remember non-profit means it should not be run like your normal business.  The non-profit organization may use garage sales, church donations or any other fund-raising endeavor...or yun sinasabi nga na exchange of goods and services for profit.  But this so called profit is used to pay for the various expenses to maintain the church and pay the staff's salaries sa parish office.

Dito na nagiging broad ata ang description. Paano kung ang definition ng fund raising endeavor is:


Investing on stocks so that the profit can be used to pay for future expenses etc?
« Last Edit: Sep 30, 2014 at 10:57 AM by Nelson de Leon »

Offline DVD_Freak

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #20 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 11:10 AM »
Dito na nagiging broad ata ang description. Paano kung ang definition ng fund raising endeavor is:
Investing on stocks so that the profit can be used to pay for future expenses etc?

Wala naman gray area dyan sir.  Profits from stocks can only be realized by selling those same stocks.  And the profit is taxed and is called capital gains tax.  Eventhough the church is tax free, the profit from the sale of those stocks will still be taxed.

Offline RU9

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #21 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 11:48 AM »
Dito na nagiging broad ata ang description. Paano kung ang definition ng fund raising endeavor is:
Investing on stocks so that the profit can be used to pay for future expenses etc?

How about "greed"?


Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #22 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 12:25 PM »
Wala naman gray area dyan sir.  Profits from stocks can only be realized by selling those same stocks.  And the profit is taxed and is called capital gains tax.  Eventhough the church is tax free, the profit from the sale of those stocks will still be taxed.

Thanks for the info. Immediate ba ang payment ng capital gains upon sale?

Offline Nelson de Leon

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #23 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 12:27 PM »
How about "greed"?

Yan sir ang hindi ka masasabi because hindi ko alam kung saan nila ginagamit ang funds nila.
« Last Edit: Sep 30, 2014 at 12:51 PM by Nelson de Leon »

Offline tony

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #24 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 12:30 PM »
agree or not, Religion is mostly, if not all, for profit.

siksik, liglig at umaapaw... yan ang pangako ng relihiyon...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline DVD_Freak

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #25 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 12:46 PM »
Thanks for the info. Immediate ba ang payment ng capital gains upon sale?

Yes sir.  Bago matransfer yun stocks dun sa buyer, dapat bayaran muna yun tax.
« Last Edit: Sep 30, 2014 at 12:52 PM by DVD_Freak »

Offline rochie

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #26 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 01:07 PM »
Thanks for the info. Immediate ba ang payment ng capital gains upon sale?

bawas na agad ng tax yung mapupunta sa equity value after the sale of stocks. and its the broker who will then hand over the payment to BIR.

Offline leomarley

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #27 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 08:05 PM »
I'm sure Mother Theresa (Blessed Teresa of Calcutta, M.C) didn't do her missionary work for profit.  I'd caution some people from making sweeping statements, and generalizing ALL to be driven by money.

sure about that? do you really know Mother Teresa?

from mic.com:

Quote
Furthermore, Mother Teresa seemed to favor the darkly wealthy while offering nothing but prayer to the poor. The study points out how she accepted honors and grants from Haitian dictator Jean-Claude Duvalier, a man known for the severe mistreatment of his own people while living in a bubble of luxury. When asked to return donated money from the corrupt banker Charles Keating, she remained silent and she also accepted money from Robert Maxwell, later discovered as stolen money. She had millions of dollars transferred to secret accounts to which Larivée asked once again, “Given the parsimonious management of Mother Teresa's works, one may ask where the millions of dollars for the poorest of the poor have gone?” When floods and chemical disaster hit her home of India, there were no financial relief efforts to be found.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/04/mother-teresa-myth_n_2805697.html

http://mic.com/articles/28746/mother-teresa-not-a-saint-new-study-suggests-she-was-a-fraud

Offline paolorenzo

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #28 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 08:26 PM »
sure about that? do you really know Mother Teresa?

from mic.com:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/04/mother-teresa-myth_n_2805697.html

http://mic.com/articles/28746/mother-teresa-not-a-saint-new-study-suggests-she-was-a-fraud

It's sad someone actually believes that.  There are much easier ways to commit fraud than committing your entire life serving the poor.  Living where they live, eating what they eat, selflessly exposing one's self to the poverty day-in, day-out.

No, I don't know Mother Theresa personally.  I'm assuming you know the writers of those articles personally.  I must really be naive.

Offline Hammerheart

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Re: Should churches be taxed?
« Reply #29 on: Sep 30, 2014 at 08:52 PM »
Oh well money is bonded with religion, one cannot live without the other.