Topic: PROVING GOD WITHOUT THE BIBLE

[dpogs]

There's a difference, dpogs. In docelmo's paper, I have my signature on it

lol...

a conversation between you and Docelmo is not enought to prove that you exist... maraming mga tao nagsasabi na they have a real conversation with God...

and the Bible is the very word of God.. not just signed.


huwag ka ngang mag-alala... hindi mo man maprove kay Docelmo na you exist... pero para sa akin i have faith that you really exist.

[Verbl Kint]

Faith cant prove that there is God but faith please Him.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him." Heb. 11:6

Read the title of the thread.

[bumblebee]

lol...

a conversation between you and Docelmo is not enought to prove that you exist... maraming mga tao nagsasabi na they have a real conversation with God...

and the Bible is the very word of God.. not just signed.

Like I said, I have my signature in it, so yeah, it proves my existence. I think know where you'd like this conversation to go, but sorry, it's not going there

There are also other books, aside from the Bible, that supposed to be from God. How do you know the Bible is THE book?

huwag ka ngang mag-alala... hindi mo man maprove kay Docelmo na you exist... pero para sa akin i have faith that you really exist.

You really needed faith to prove I exist don't you? Tsaka, hindi ako nag-aalala, bakit mo ipinipilit?

[dpogs]

Read the title of the thread.

kaya nga po... faith cant prove that there is God...

[dpogs]

You really needed faith to prove I exist don't you? Tsaka, hindi nag-aalala, bakit mo ipinipilit?

nope... i just believe that you exist... no need to prove that... i have faith

There are also other books, aside from the Bible, that supposed to be from God. How do you know the Bible is THE book?

faith also. the same faith i have believing that you exist. but if i tell others na merong bumblebee na nag exist at ang patunay ay ang signature niya sa conversation na ito.. i really dont know if it is enough to prove that it is really coming from you - "THE Conversation"

[barrister]

Walang defect dun natural di mag-exist yang mga bagay na yan kung walang lumikha, gaya ng bahay di mag-exist kung walang gumawa..

Sigurado akong tao ang gumawa ng bahay, kasi marami na akong nakitang ginagawang bahay.

Ikaw sir, ilang langit at mundo na ang nakita mong nililikha?

ok sasakyan ko yang "Where Did They Come From" mo....Saan galing kung Alam mo?

Hindi ko alam kung hindi ko babasehan ang bibliya.  Dahil sa biblya, alam ko na.

Pero ang usapin dito, wag daw gamitin ang bibliya. Paano na ngayon? 

[bumblebee]

Malalaman nila yun. Point mo sila sa thread na to and have them click my profile. Kulit!

[dpogs]

Malalaman nila yun. Point mo sila sa thread na to and have them click my profile. Kulit!

it is just the same sa pagsabi na malalaman nila yan na God exist just read the Bible and read the profile of God in these particular verses.. etc...

so how do you prove that you exist without The Conversation?
so how do we prove that God exist without The Bible?


oh btw... anong bumblebee ba ang tinutukoy natin... baka ibang website (book) ang maclick nila

[bumblebee]

it is just the same sa pagsabi na malalaman nila yan na God exist just read the Bible and read the profile of God in these particular verses.. etc...

Magkaiba nga kasi meron akong signature. Also, kung buhay pa ko, makaka-reply ako sa kanila. Gets?

[dpogs]

Magkaiba nga kasi meron akong signature. Also, kung buhay pa ko, makaka-reply ako sa kanila. Gets?

lol... okay... dont worry... i have faith naman na you exist... i believe that it is your signature... i believe that it is your profile... and i believe that this conversation is really coming from Bumblebee...

[bumblebee]

SMH.

[docelmo]

Oh, I thought that was a rhetoric, a prelude to your next paragraphs How do I know I exist? You do know were having this conversation, don't you?

My point exactly! This is the Law of Causality! Cause and Effect! Everything that has a beginning has a cause!

The words you've written here is the "effect" and you are the "cause". Without you there would be no conversation...which means that it connotes existence of both parties!

Just like we know a carpenter built a house or Leonardo painted the Mona Lisa. Now what is the as you say "Signature" of this Higher Being......Man, living things and the Universe itself! That to me is the Biggest signature there is! To deny that We and the universe  has no author  or the author does NOT exists....is intellectual dishonesty.

[bumblebee]

My point exactly! This is the Law of Causality! Cause and Effect! Everything that has a beginning has a cause!

Layo ha? You proved by existence with what cause?

The words you've written here is the "effect" and you are the "cause". Without you there would be no conversation...which means that it connotes existence of both parties!

dpogs won't agree with you on this

Just like we know a carpenter built a house or Leonardo painted the Mona Lisa. Now what is the as you say "Signature" of this Higher Being......Man, living things and the Universe itself! That to me is the Biggest signature there is! To deny that We and the universe  has no author  or the author does NOT exists....is intellectual dishonesty.

The same can be said to aliens. You believe that they exist?

[pTrader]

Who is the maker and the Creator if you know them?

The Creator is the answer itself. No further answer.

[docelmo]

Layo ha? You proved by existence with what cause?

dpogs won't agree with you on this

The same can be said to aliens. You believe that they exist?

Huh? You lost me there. I am simply stating that a "cause" must exist or is present first for it to have an "effect". One can"t exist without the other. Isn't that your claim that your word is proof of your existence?.....cause and effect!

That's ok sir Dpogs is simply stating his position from the point of view of faith. He is also correct that the bible is an integral part of the quest in knowing God. And faith plays a big part( but that is not relevant in this thread).

Aliens? Sure! If you believe them to  be these higher being. However, if they exist in our own universe then they are governed by the same laws and makeup! And therefore they coludn't be the creator if they themselves exists in the same time and space! The creator should be beyond space and time.

[bumblebee]

Yeah, my word is proof of my existence but thats not cause and effect. I caused my word, not the other way around.

And can it not be possible that aliens from another universe populated this one? Is it not possible that this universe is meant to lifeless in the first place? And if they have a creator, can it not be totally different from the one we've come to know?

[Nelson de Leon]

Atoms can be created/destroyed.  That's nuclear fusion/fission.

Yes. Ang energy ata ang cannot be created or destroyed. It just transforms.

[bumblebee]

Matter can't be as well. Atoms can be considered matter so if you fuse atoms to create a new one, that's like converting it. The total matter and energy remains the same.

[barrister]

Siguradong ang next question, where did matter come from.

Answer - nobody knows.

A creator made it?  That's only one of the possibilities.  Why jump to the conclusion that a creator exists as if it were the only possibility?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, said Carl Sagan.

You make an extraordinary claim, you provide the extraordinary evidence.

[docelmo]

Yeah, my word is proof of my existence but thats not cause and effect. I caused my word, not the other way around.

And can it not be possible that aliens from another universe populated this one? Is it not possible that this universe is meant to lifeless in the first place? And if they have a creator, can it not be totally different from the one we've come to know?

Exactly what I said...... Your "existence" is necessary to cause an effect(your word). As I said earlier by this universal law, it is reasonable to accept that a "higher being" exists and is the cause of the universe.

If Aliens came from another universe, my question would be is How did that other universe came to be? Another Big bang? Is there a "Universe maker"? What is the nature of this universe-maker?

Sure its possible this universe could be meant to be lifeless......But the fact is we are here! What mechanism, conditions, factors, etc produced life? Did life came by Chance or Directed?

Sure, the creator could take on any form! Our minds cannot possibly fully understand the "mind" of this higher being.

Proving his existence with absolute certainty I believe is beyond our reach. We are left only to reasonably accept the possibility that a higher being exists based on the entirety of our knowledge and experience. 


 

[bumblebee]

My point is you are using cause and effect for proof when it isn't necessary.

And regarding that higher being, if he does exist, are you ok if he's not that God from the bible? If yes, then point taken. If not, then you're just trying to fit everything in.

This thread is about proving God without the bible. Some people think they can. Don't rain on their parade.

[barrister]

They're using the cause-and-effect argument, otherwise known as the "cosmological argument."

It is an argument from existence, meaning that if something exists, then something must have caused its existence. 

The fallacy of the argument lies in the concept that even if we accept that there must have been a cause (or a "first cause") that led to the existence of someting, it does not necessarily mean that we can be exactly sure about what that cause really was.

The universe exists.  Something must have caused its existence.
 
I agree.  A cause exists. 

Here's the problem --- what exactly was that cause? 

[docelmo]

My point is you are using cause and effect for proof when it isn't necessary.

And regarding that higher being, if he does exist, are you ok if he's not that God from the bible? If yes, then point taken. If not, then you're just trying to fit everything in.

This thread is about proving God without the bible. Some people think they can. Don't rain on their parade.

On the contrary this law is essential in our understanding of the world around us and therefore would also be integral in establishing the existence of the ultimate cause…

He took the form of George Burns and Morgan Freeman right? I'll be really disappointed if He is not the God we know. Seriously, the attributes of this cause could very well describe the God of the bible….so it is reasonable to accept that He Exist!

I am also in agreement that given the evidence (even non-biblical) it is reasonable to accept that a higher being indeed exist…as to the identity…Isipin ko muna sagot ko ki Atty! Hirap kasi...research muna ako!

[AppleMan]

lol...

a conversation between you and Docelmo is not enought to prove that you exist... maraming mga tao nagsasabi na they have a real conversation with God...

and the Bible is the very word of God.. not just signed.


huwag ka ngang mag-alala... hindi mo man maprove kay Docelmo na you exist... pero para sa akin i have faith that you really exist.

Your existence prove because of your AWARENESS without AWARENESS how do you know that you're EXIST?

[AppleMan]

You make an extraordinary claim, you provide the extraordinary evidence.

The EXTRAORDINARY evidence, di na tayo lalayo the Earth itself nobody can CREATE the Earth without an EXTRAORDINARY CREATOR...the EXTRAORDINARY CREATOR is what we called GOD...

[barrister]

The EXTRAORDINARY evidence, di na tayo lalayo the Earth itself nobody can CREATE the Earth without an EXTRAORDINARY CREATOR...the EXTRAORDINARY CREATOR is what we called GOD...

Ebidensiya yon? 

That is not extraordinary evidence. 

In fact, that is not even evidence at all.  That's nothing more than a declaration of faith.

[barrister]

I am also in agreement that given the evidence (even non-biblical) it is reasonable to accept that a higher being indeed exist…as to the identity…Isipin ko muna sagot ko ki Atty! Hirap kasi...research muna ako!

Ayaw mo kasing maniwala, Doc...  Hindi kayang patunayan yan...

[pTrader]

to cut the story short, What is God, Who is God, Where did you get the concept  of God? if God does not exist so there should be no such word as "God"?

simple lang walang Bible, so saan nag mula yung concept of God?

paki sagot lang po..


salamat.

[barrister]

Where did you get the concept  of God? if God does not exist so there should be no such word as "God"?

simple lang walang Bible, so saan nag mula yung concept of God?

paki sagot lang po..

You mean God exists because the word "God" exists?  If we have a concept of God, then God exists?
 
Following that argument, the following statements must also be true:
 
1. The word "fairy" exists, therefore fairies exist.
2.  Since we have a concept of fairies, then fairies exist.

[pTrader]

You mean God exists because the word "God" exists?  If we have a concept of God, then God exists?
 
Following that argument, then the following statements must also be true:
 
1. The word "fairy" exists, therefore fairies exist.
2.  Since we have a concept of fairies, then fairies exist.

No, where do we get the concept of God?