Author Topic: Tube Newbie Questions  (Read 8642 times)

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Offline vladsee

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Tube Newbie Questions
« on: May 24, 2015 at 03:47 PM »
Good day everyone,

I recently got myself a small entry level/beginner headphone tube amp that is connected to the DAC via RCA cables which is connected to the computer where I listen to my music most of the time. I started getting curious as to how tube amplification works for audio equipment and read up on wikipedia and other articles online and watched tutorial videos in youtube.  Since I am not a technician or engineer I probably only understood 50% of what I read/watched and got a headache for the effort too!  I have some questions for the technical masters in here and hope you will take the time to help me with my questions.

1. Why do some tube amps like mine only have 1 tube while the others have 2 or more of different sizes and types? How does it affect the sound of the amp?

2.  My amp has this single 12AU7 tube from China.  How do I determine the brand?  Which shop carries this if I need a replacement?  Can I use different types of compatible tubes if I want to try tube rolling or only another 12AU7 will work?   



Thanks in advance for any inputs and help you can provide  ;)

Vlad
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015 at 04:12 PM by vladsee »

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2015 at 07:17 PM »
1. Yours is probably a hybrid amp, meaning the tube is there as either a buffer or a preamp section in the input of the amp, which is then coupled to another amplifier which in turn will drive your headphones. The number of tubes used in a circuit varies in the design of the amp. A 12AU7 is a small signal tube in what is more commonly known as a "peanut" package, there are smaller/bigger tubes than the 12AU7 but this is mostly synonymous to power requirements of the circuit. A bigger tube will have bigger plates which can handle larger currents.

How does it affect the sound of the amp? Answers widely (and wildly) vary, some nut job would say that replacing the tubes shouldn't affect the sound, but later on, that same nut job would also say changing the tube would. You see, it all depends on your point of view and how your ears respond to whatever changes tube rolling presents to you. For example, to some, a Telefunken 12AU7 would differ in sound when compared to an RCA cleartop 12AU7, but there would also be some who would say it doesn't make a difference, maybe they just don't hear I don't know.

If there is one thing I learned in my years of tube use is that there is no fast rule. There maybe guidelines you can follow but these are highly debatable and usually starts a comical war.

2. You could ask the manufacturer of your amp, most China tubes are made by Shuguang but you know how China is, they can be making these in their backyards for all we know. Yes you can use other brand 12AU7, and other close or equivalent models like 5814, ECC82, etc...

Hope this helps. Cheers


Offline vladsee

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2015 at 03:32 PM »
JojoD818,

Thank you for your helpful reply!

I didn't think about checking the manufacturer's page last time and true enough it is a Shuguang 12AU7 tube after checking.  I was looking at the tube closely last night while listening to music and saw that it has 2 heating rods.  It looked really nice at night when the lights are off.  I also did some research about what people thought of this tube and the result was mixed.  Some love it while some hated it.  I like the sound so far so will keep mine. Now where can we find another 12AU7 locally if I want a replacement or try some tube rolling?

Another reviewer did also say that it is a hybrid amp with a MOSFET driving the headphones.  I don't really understand what a buffer means so what does the tube do in this case when its not really the one directly driving the headphones? 

Another reason why I'm trying to understand all this is to make sense of the advertising that manufacturers do when promoting the product.  What does it mean when the manufacturer says its is a "class A Amp" and "no op-amp IC"?     

Hope to hear from you again soon.

Vlad

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2015 at 09:52 AM »
Shuguang or whatever brand as long as it works, and most of all plays acceptable music (at least to my ears) that's fine with me too. It's just that during their early days of manufacturing, Shuguang had the most terrible infantile mortality rate and reliability, but now, they probably got their stuff together.

There are many sellers here in the marketplace, brand new or slightly used just take your pick. With that design, a 12AU7 will last you even twice a person's lifetime. ;)

Ah if that's a Tube + MOSFET then the tube is a voltage amplifier that takes care of the gain stage while the MosFET is a current amplifier (or a buffer) that couples the tube to the headphones. Usually, both stages are ran in Class A mode.

The manufacturer is only stating (or bragging) that your piece of equipment uses discrete parts in it's circuitry with no "opamps" in the signal chain. Personally, I don't see any problem with either one but that's just me.

I guess in the end, what's important is that it works fine, serves you with good music anytime and every time.

:)

Offline vladsee

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015 at 10:03 AM »
Thanks again for your reply JojoD818! 

I clicked on your blog and saw that you do customized amplifiers and other audio accessories and electronic equipment.  I will email you shortly if you don't mind  ;)

Vlad

Offline tony

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2015 at 12:25 PM »
Good day everyone,

I recently got myself a small entry level/beginner headphone tube amp that is connected to the DAC via RCA cables which is connected to the computer where I listen to my music most of the time. I started getting curious as to how tube amplification works for audio equipment and read up on wikipedia and other articles online and watched tutorial videos in youtube.  Since I am not a technician or engineer I probably only understood 50% of what I read/watched and got a headache for the effort too!  I have some questions for the technical masters in here and hope you will take the time to help me with my questions.

1. Why do some tube amps like mine only have 1 tube while the others have 2 or more of different sizes and types? How does it affect the sound of the amp?

2.  My amp has this single 12AU7 tube from China.  How do I determine the brand?  Which shop carries this if I need a replacement?  Can I use different types of compatible tubes if I want to try tube rolling or only another 12AU7 will work?   



Thanks in advance for any inputs and help you can provide  ;)

Vlad


can you tell why you want to replace your 12au7, is it busted?
pins look very clean and flas gettring seems to be in excellent condition...
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015 at 06:19 PM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline vladsee

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2015 at 03:07 PM »
Its not busted and I don't really want to replace it right now.  I'm just asking around for the future possibility that the tube gives out and I may need to replace it then.  I am thinking of tube rolling to see if it sounds different with a new tube but not really a priority.   
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015 at 03:10 PM by vladsee »

Offline tony

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2015 at 06:21 PM »
Its not busted and I don't really want to replace it right now.  I'm just asking around for the future possibility that the tube gives out and I may need to replace it then.  I am thinking of tube rolling to see if it sounds different with a new tube but not really a priority.   

if you can give me the model number of your amp or better yet post pictures,
i can give you some advise, these peanut tubes last a long time,
baka sinawaan ka na sa amp na yan buo pa rin ang tube na yan...
i have some 12au7 tubes that i can lend you....for free...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline vladsee

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2015 at 12:29 AM »
I have the Bravo Audio Ocean Amp.  Here is the link to the official website of the product along with some stats of the amp. 

http://www.bravoaudio.com/Bravo%20Ocean.html

Here is a detailed review wherein the reviewer opens up the casing and makes an assessment of the construction as well as sound and other functionalities.

http://www.head-fi.org/products/bravo-audio-ocean/reviews/12882

I like the sound of my existing audio setup of dac+hybrid amp w/ tubes+headphones and not really in a hurry to replace the current setup.  Just wondering and curious about this tube rolling thing if it will really change the sound.  Hopefully I can do some equipment trials in the future.  I was also wondering if I will use this Bravo Ocean as pre-amp and connect to a real full tube amp if it will change the sound too.     

Thanks for offering to lend some tubes for free.  If its possible to send me your contact info thru private message here in the pinoydvd forums maybe we can arrange to meet.       

Vlad   

Offline tony

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2015 at 06:55 AM »
there was another such type sold here a few years ago,
the Muse line/headphone amp, topology is much the same as what you have....
similar to this one....


 the circuit as shown is not a good way to do it, operting point of the output stage
changes with every change in P1 setting....we want an output stage that is constant,
not varying...besides dc on pot guarantees it will be scrathy as time goes by...




i do not think that rolling tubes will just be a plug in and listen affair....
you will have to make adjustments inside to make sure the output stage
are biased correctly with every tube change....
so here, rolling can be a hit and miss affair...

sent you pm....
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015 at 07:33 AM by tony »
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline vladsee

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2015 at 10:54 AM »
Thanks for that input sir!  I'll put a hold to any ideas of tube rolling for now since may mga adjustments pa pala na kailangan gawin and hindi naman ako marunong dyan!   ??? 

I also got your message and will reply to it later.  ;)

Vlad

Offline tony

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2015 at 11:35 AM »
Thanks for that input sir!  I'll put a hold to any ideas of tube rolling for now since may mga adjustments pa pala na kailangan gawin and hindi naman ako marunong dyan!   ??? 

I also got your message and will reply to it later.  ;)

Vlad

no problem, i suggest that you live with your amp for a while,
say 3 months then saka mo na isipin yung rolling...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline busabos

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #12 on: Jun 03, 2015 at 07:04 AM »
Since this is for newbies, I'll post my inquiry here.  Is it normal to have a faint buzzing or static noise coming out from the speakers when there's no music playing on the source?  It doesn't happen when the volume from tube amp is zero.

I tried changing the speaker wire, rca and source and it still the same so I'm sure it's the amp.

Any thoughts on this?

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #13 on: Jun 03, 2015 at 07:22 AM »
Faint hiss and hum is what's accepted as normal, but faint buzzing and static noise is not.

However, since you mentioned that turning the volume to zero eliminates this, I'm inclined to think it's caused by the gain of the amp amplifying anything on it's input even atmospheric disturbances. The output impedance of your source, coupled with the minute capacitance of your rca interconnects completes the requirements for an antenna.

You shouldn't be able to hear this at your listening position, if you do, have the amp checked.


Offline tony

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #14 on: Jun 03, 2015 at 11:49 AM »
depends if the amp annoys you no end....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline vladsee

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #15 on: Jun 03, 2015 at 02:12 PM »
Actually I also hear a hissing sound when I turn off the music and turn the volume up around 50%-60%.  Just tried it for experimentation only after reading the post of busabos.  I don't feel too bothered with it because I don't turn it up all the way to that level (nakakabinigi na!).  At 25% which is my normal listening volume wala naman hiss kaya ok lang sa akin. ;) 

Offline tony

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #16 on: Jun 03, 2015 at 06:09 PM »
^^hissing is also a sign of a microphonic tube, you can replace the tube and see what happens...
in the old day, merely replacing tubes can cure issues....other times, the socket becomes loose
and that causes problems too...
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #17 on: Jun 03, 2015 at 06:55 PM »
Actually I also hear a hissing sound when I turn off the music and turn the volume up around 50%-60%.  Just tried it for experimentation only after reading the post of busabos.  I don't feel too bothered with it because I don't turn it up all the way to that level (nakakabinigi na!).  At 25% which is my normal listening volume wala naman hiss kaya ok lang sa akin. ;) 


Poor amp design, layout and implementation also causes that.

Offline tony

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #18 on: Jun 03, 2015 at 07:01 PM »
looks good on the outside.....

how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline vladsee

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #19 on: Jun 04, 2015 at 12:49 AM »
Correction.  Sorry its not really a hissing sound.  Its more like a faint beeping sound ("teeee...")  At 50% volume its very faint but gets louder little by little until its very audible at higher volumes (70% and higher volumes).  Is it the same problem as that hissing sound?  I still like the sound from it listening at 25%-30% volume without any noise.     
« Last Edit: Jun 04, 2015 at 01:47 AM by vladsee »

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #20 on: Jun 04, 2015 at 01:26 AM »
when you say beeping, is it like Morse code with intervals or it's a constant tone?


Offline vladsee

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #21 on: Jun 04, 2015 at 01:46 AM »
Beeping on a constant tone. 

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #22 on: Jun 04, 2015 at 01:52 AM »
I'm sorry, but you lost me there.

Offline tony

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #23 on: Jun 04, 2015 at 06:06 AM »
looks like psu issues to me....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline vladsee

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #24 on: Jun 04, 2015 at 08:49 AM »
JojoD818,

Sorry I don't know how else to describe it but let me try again...  Its a constant beeping noise and sounds like "teeeeeeeee.......".  Quiet from 0-49% volume.  Its very faint but I can start hearing it at 50% volume and gets louder little by little as volume knob goes up.  This amp is cheap and its not all that perfect but at this price I think sulit na rin for an entry level tube amp.  I like the sound from it and I don't listen at 50% and up because its too loud anyway.

Tony,

What do you mean by "psu issue"?  I'm guessing power supply unit? 

Vlad   

   

   

Offline JojoD818

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #25 on: Jun 04, 2015 at 08:55 AM »
So it's a constant tone, not a beep. A beeping sound has intervals, like "beep" "beep" "beep" wherein the spaces are silent.

Anyway, if the posted schematics is correct then since your output mosfet has a ccs on it's tail, I'd suspect the tube being modulated by the psu noise.

PSU noise is a very huge topic and can consume pages upon pages of explanations, if you are bothered with it then have it checked, if not, well I guess you'll just have to live with it.


Offline tony

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #26 on: Jun 04, 2015 at 09:19 AM »
yes, psu is power supply, you can try another psu if you are using an smps type which is most likely, try a linear psu for a change....
how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....

Offline vladsee

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #27 on: Jun 04, 2015 at 09:39 AM »
JojoD818,

Sorry for that confusion.  Yes constant tone pala dapat sinabi ko. 

JojoD818 and Tony,

Thank you sirs for the explanation.  I can live with that noise so I'll just leave it as is for now.  Is this issue also present in solid state pre-amps and amps?  I've seen online some people use batteries or a separate power bank type of unit.  Is that also to avoid this type of noise?     

Vlad

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Re: Tube Newbie Questions
« Reply #28 on: Jun 04, 2015 at 09:49 AM »
a simple fix you might want to try is to wrap the load side end of your
psu lead one or two turns into a ferrite ring, i have some in the house
that i can give you for free...

like this one....

how do we defend our freedom? by the truth when it is assaulted by Marcos lies....