Topic: LGBT Issues - Religious Version

[Klaus Weasley]

I wanted to create this thread to present this nice message from Fr. James Martin, SJ (a Jesuit priest who has authored several books)

[dpogs]

wala namang mali sa sinasabi ng priest na ito...

he specifically state "hatred to homosexuality"... did he mention "hatred to homosexuals"?

personally: i dont hate smokers - i hate smoking... i dont hate prostitute, i hate prostitution... i dont hate gamblers - i hate gambling... i dont hate homosexual - i hate homosexuality

being homosexual is not a sin... homosexuality is...
Bible doesnt hate homosexuals... Bible hates homosexuality...
Bible doesnt hate sinners... Bible hates sin...

ayon sa Bibliya love one another (including homosexuals/lgbt)... and at the same sinasabi din sa Bibliya na kamuhian natin ang kasalanan...

ang term na "God made me like this" is not an excuse to exercise homosexuality... lahat tayo ipinanganak na makasalanan it doesnt mean we need to live bilang isang makalasanan... each of us still have a choice.

[Klaus Weasley]

Fr. James Martin is one of the more progressive priests out there. He's a Jesuit and believe it or not, lots of Jesuits are progressive thinkers and a lot of them support LGBT rights and marriage equality.

[dpogs]

i rather believe the Bible kesa sa mga sinasabi ng ibang tao

imho... i rather choose to believe a child qouting a Bible than a catholic priest

[leomarley]

but the bible is just written by man... soo....

[oReOsHaKe]

but the bible is just written by man... soo....

Amen..

[heisenbergman]

but the bible is just written by man... soo....

QFT.

Amen, indeed.

To advance that, organized religion is a construct created by man as well... sooo....

[leomarley]

QFT.

Amen, indeed.

To advance that, organized religion is a construct created by man as well... sooo....

To control man... Sooo...

[dpogs]

Yes that is very true... Still ill believe the Bible amd i choose it than any catholic priest and To prove that the Bible is written by God is another thing... We can discuss it in other thread :-)

The Bible clearly says that homosexuality is wrong and is unnatural... Most of religions around the world believe that homosexuality is wrong...

[Klaus Weasley]

Lots of things are condemned in the Bible as "unnatural" - Working on a Sunday, shaving your beard, eating shellfish, wearing two types of cloth on your body. The Bible also seems to be okay with forcing your daughter to marry her rapist and owning slaves. Everyone cherry-picks the Bible and chooses to read it in their own way.

[dpogs]

my last post here:

The Bible never condemns nor hate homosexuals in fact God died for them.
The Bible old and new testament shows that homosexuality is a sin.

[barrister]

- Divorce is not punishable by death.

- The Old Testament allowed divorce. 

- Jesus Christ also allowed divorce.

- The bible does say something about the homosexual lifestyle.

The smartass who wrote that doesn't know anything about the bible.
 

... shaving your beard, eating shellfish, wearing two types of cloth on your body. The Bible also seems to be okay with forcing your daughter to marry her rapist and owning slaves. ...

You have no idea how Mosaic law is properly applied.

What is the meaning of the phrase, "rightly dividing the word of truth" in 2 Tim. 2:15?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+2%3A15&version=KJV

 

Working on a Sunday...

On a Sunday?

Do you even know the difference between a Sabbath and a Roman Sunday?

[bumblebee]

To control man... Sooo...

QFT.

Amen, indeed.

To advance that, organized religion is a construct created by man as well... sooo....

Mostly likely by lawyers, kaya "mahirap" intindihin...sooo....

[leomarley]

Sir barrister, just to know where you're coming from, are you for or against marriage equality?

[ninjababez®]

bookmarking ..

[barrister]

Sir barrister, just to know where you're coming from, are you for or against marriage equality?

That's a fair question.  Maybe I do need to clarify.
 
I am against SSM on religious grounds.  But from the purely secular point of view, I am not against it.
 
That's because my objections are only religious, and I don't impose my religious beliefs on others.
 
 
 
===================================
 
 

You and others say the bible was only written by man. 
 
The way I understand it, you meant you do not believe that the bible is of divine inspiration.
 
Sa akin, OK yon.  If you don't believe in the bible, there's no problem.  Wala namang pilitan yon.
 
But my problem is when others think that they can use the bible against the bible-believer to prove that the latter is wrong.  Yon ang akala nila.  Hindi kasi ako yung nakausap nila, e...     
 
My advice to the LGBT rights activists ---- don't use the bible to prove your views, because you will not succeed.
 
Huwag nilang isipin na may nabasa lang silang mga bible interpretations na pro-LGBT sa internet, akala nila eksperto na sila sa bibliya.  Samantalang basic terms na malakoi and arsenokoitai lang, hindi pa alam.

[leomarley]

Well, I don't want to quote a self contradicting book with ridiculous rules and lots of plot holes. Whether people agree or not, marriage is a civil and social issue and not a religious one.

[barrister]

Well, I don't want to quote a self contradicting book with ridiculous rules and lots of plot holes. Whether people agree or not, marriage is a civil and social issue and not a religious one.

 
No, it's not true that the bible is self-contradicting.  Cite one "contradiction" and I'll explain why it's reconcilable.
 
The concept of "contradictions" in the bible is not new.  Some of the earliest ones were from Muslim authors like Rahmatullah Kairanawi, who in the 19th century alleged that there were 119 contradictions in the bible.
 
These days, you have the Western copycats who repeatedly come up with their own lists of contradictions.  They're usually atheists who took their cue from Kairanawi and Dr. Shabir Ally.  Yung mga Pinoy naman, sa Amerikano pumulot ng "contradictions" sa internet...   
 
I acknowledge that even if the bible had no contradictions, that would still not be sufficient proof that the bible is true.  It can still be an invented fairy tale, only that it it is a fairly tale that contains no contradictions.
 
That's why I said, if you don't believe the bible, that's up to you and I have no problem with that.   
 
But if you're going to say that the bible is self-contradicting, you'd better be prepared to back up your statement.     

[elim]

Well, I don't want to quote a self contradicting book with ridiculous rules and lots of plot holes. Whether people agree or not, marriage is a civil and social issue and not a religious one.

If this is true why are priests in Texas being forced by law to wed gays? If the they want to get married via judge alone then that would be a different story.

for reference are you leo a christian?

[Klaus Weasley]

If this is true why are priests in Texas being forced by law to wed gays?

Where did you hear that? I doubt that is true. Probably fear-mongering from anti-gay groups. Churches are free to marry and not marry whomever they want. The legalization is for civil marriage. If you want a religious gay marriage, you have to find a gay-friendly church (meron din ganoon).

[oReOsHaKe]

Where did you hear that? I doubt that is true. Probably fear-mongering from anti-gay groups. Churches are free to marry and not marry whomever they want. The legalization is for civil marriage. If you want a religious gay marriage, you have to find a gay-friendly church (meron din ganoon).

The Episcopal Church approves religious weddings for gay couples after controversial debate

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/07/01/why-the-episcopal-church-is-still-debating-gay-marriage/

[elim]

hey kalus, sorry but can't seem to find the article again. saw it in cnn's website. If what you say is correct then lgbt marriage in a civil scenario is difficult to or cannot be debated (at least is the US).

[dpogs]

Where did you hear that? I doubt that is true. Probably fear-mongering from anti-gay groups. Churches are free to marry and not marry whomever they want. The legalization is for civil marriage. If you want a religious gay marriage, you have to find a gay-friendly church (meron din ganoon).

cant they find a friendly gay business othen than to target known conservatice religious business owner (well you know pera din yan kapag nanalo sa kaso)...

[oReOsHaKe]

cant they find a friendly gay business othen than to target known conservatice religious business owner (well you know pera din yan kapag nanalo sa kaso)...

Nakakabanas lang when gay couples insist on businesses to cater to them when it is against the religious belief of the business owners..  Sasabihin ng LGBT couple discrimination daw.. Eh di ba discrimination din yan when you force somebody to cater to you when it is against their beliefs?

[Klaus Weasley]

Nakakabanas lang when gay couples insist on businesses to cater to them when it is against the religious belief of the business owners..  Sasabihin ng LGBT couple discrimination daw.. Eh di ba discrimination din yan when you force somebody to cater to you when it is against their beliefs?

Let's just say hindi gay, what if instead mga racist ang owners at ayaw nila sa mga blacks o sa mga Pinoy o sa mga Katoliko dahil bawal daw sa relihiyon nila ang i-serve ang mga taong ganoon. Di ba masama din yun? That's discrimination. If you're a business open to the public, then it's understood that you should serve everyone. One compromise I would allow is that if they wish to discriminate against customers, they need to place it in their signage and their ads: "NO GAYS ALLOWED" so as to save them the trouble of trying to acquire their services and the humiliation of being turned down.

Anyway these "religious objections" are hypocritical to say the least: Divorce was explicitly condemned by Jesus but I'm pretty sure most if not all these bakeries and flower shops don't ask if either the bride or groom are getting re-married to another person after a divorce. Isn't that like celebrating their adultery? So, yes, this is a purely "I hate gays" sort of thing.

[dpogs]

Its not the people we are against at... Its their practice...

We dont hate homosexuals... We hate homosexuality er same sex marriage

Bakit ba pinagapipilitan mo na di allowed ang divorce sa Bible eh allowed nga ang divorce sa Bible... :-)

If u deny homosexuals because they are homosexual then it is discrimination...
If u deny black because thay are black it is discrimination...
If u deny catholics for being catholics then it is discrimination...
If u deny heterosexuals because they are heterosexuals then it is discrimination...

BUT

if u deny homosexuals because of their practice of ssm then it is not discrimination
If u deny catholics becaude they are going to use ur place as place of worship then it is not a discriminaion
If u deny blacks becausr they arw goig to use ur business for hteir illegal practice then it is not discrimination...
If u deny heterosexual because if their practice of marriage then it isnot diacrimination...


Gets?

Its not about color, race, or srxual preference... It is all about practice that we dont like to be part of... I dont want my place or my business to be use by any person for any practice that i believe is wrong. . I dont even allow any customer na magsmoke or maginuman sa vicinity ng business ko... Because i believe it is wrong...and i dont want to be part of that practice. .

Gets?

[oReOsHaKe]

Let's just say hindi gay, what if instead mga racist ang owners at ayaw nila sa mga blacks o sa mga Pinoy o sa mga Katoliko dahil bawal daw sa relihiyon nila ang i-serve ang mga taong ganoon. Di ba masama din yun? That's discrimination. If you're a business open to the public, then it's understood that you should serve everyone. One compromise I would allow is that if they wish to discriminate against customers, they need to place it in their signage and their ads: "NO GAYS ALLOWED" so as to save them the trouble of trying to acquire their services and the humiliation of being turned down.

Anyway these "religious objections" are hypocritical to say the least: Divorce was explicitly condemned by Jesus but I'm pretty sure most if not all these bakeries and flower shops don't ask if either the bride or groom are getting re-married to another person after a divorce. Isn't that like celebrating their adultery? So, yes, this is a purely "I hate gays" sort of thing.

This LGBT people dont get it when they are refused.  They can always go to other businesses right. Why insist.  Why sue those people who do not want to serve you.  Importante lang respeto sa belief ng ibang tao. 

[DVD_Freak]

Let's just say hindi gay, what if instead mga racist ang owners at ayaw nila sa mga blacks o sa mga Pinoy o sa mga Katoliko dahil bawal daw sa relihiyon nila ang i-serve ang mga taong ganoon. Di ba masama din yun? That's discrimination. If you're a business open to the public, then it's understood that you should serve everyone. One compromise I would allow is that if they wish to discriminate against customers, they need to place it in their signage and their ads: "NO GAYS ALLOWED" so as to save them the trouble of trying to acquire their services and the humiliation of being turned down.

Hindi ba magkaiba yun comparison mo?  Businesses don't refuse to sell to somebody who is gay.  The business owner refuses to participate in a gay event because it is against his religion.  Magkaiba yun a gay person enters a restaurant to eat there compared to hiring the restaurant to cater a gay wedding.

If you insist to use race, A business sells to a black person.  But it's a different matter to cater a black wedding.....if that is against his religion.

[dpogs]

my faith says that smoking is wrong and a sin...

if i reject catholics because they said they are going to smoke in my business place - is it discrimination?
if i reject black because they said they are going to smoke in my business place - is it discrimination?
if i reject heterosexuals because they said they are going to smoke in my business place - is it discrimination?
if i reject homosexuals because they said they are going to smoke in my business place - is it discrimination?

[Klaus Weasley]

Early Christians performed gay marriages.

An explanation of anti-gay passages in the Bible.

It will most likely not change any minds but whatever...I'll post it anway.