Topic: Iglesia ni Cristo - Doctrines, Issues, Politics, etc

[abbey]

Thanks for sharing this ---- and I quote,

Shifting loyalties

To be sure, the INC has built a formidable image that it can make or break the political career of those aspiring for public office. Its solid vote is a prized catch for anyone, and could possibly attract the undecided voters to go for the potential winners.

INC spokesman Edwil Zabala said bloc-voting is based on Biblical teachings. “One of the Bible teachings is unity. Unity in serving the Lord God. Unity in faith. Unity in rendering judgment. That's in the Bible. So when members of the Iglesia ni Cristo, for example, here in the Philippines, are asked to vote, we are being asked to render a judgment. So we have to put God, obedience to God first, before obedience to any man-made law. If God requires unity, if God requires that the body of Christ, the Church of Christ be one, we will uphold it no matter how others may react to it.”

Essentially, it seems to be a reverse of the adage, “The voice of the people is the voice of God.”

Classic example of using Bible for their own gain.

First of all Mr.Zabala has to prove that the "Church of Christ" ( Iglesia ni Cristo) name is in the Bible before claiming their teaching is base on the Bible.

[barrister]

sa kabilang thread bro ang usaping ganito tungkol sa relihiyon.

Pumayag ka na sir sa ganong topic. 

Tutal, ang title ng thread, INC - Doctrines, Issues, Politics, etc.  Unang-una nga sa listahan ang topic na "doctrines."

tanong ko lang po nasa doktrina ba ng INC na si Jesus ay isang tao? kasi minsan naririnig ko dito sa opisina pag na uusap kaya nasaasbihan na kulto ang INC kasi yun daw ang isang paniniwala ng INC na si Jesus hay hindi Diyos si Jesus ay tao lamang?... ayaw ko din kasi makisali sa usapan pag relihiyon na ang topic hehehehe...kaya dito ko nalang itatanong...

mga bro and sis natin dito sa PDVD na INC member eto po ba ang paniniwala ng INC? salamat po...

Yes, ganon na nga ang paniniwala ng INC.

Para sa kanila, si Hesus ay taong-tao lang.  Yan ang unique sa doktrina nila.

Ang ibang relihiyon na hindi tinuturing ang sarili na Kristiyano (eg. - Islam), ang paniniwala ay si Hesus ay tao lang.  Pero sa mga relihiyon na tinuturing ang sarili na Kristiyano, INC lang ang alam ko na ang paniniwala ay si Kristo ay tao lang.

Example kung paano nila sinusuportahan ang kanilang paniniwala:

Datapuwa't ngayo'y pinagsisikapan ninyo akong patayin, na taong sa inyo'y nagsaysay ng katotohanan... (Jn. 8:40)

Ano ang sabi ng panginoong Hesus tungkol sa kanyang sarili?  Siya raw ay taong nagsaysay ng katotohanan. Hindi Diyos na nagsaysay ng katotohanan, kundi taong nagsaysay ng katotohanan.  Samakatuwid, ang panginoong Hesus mismo ang nagsabi na siya ay tao at hindi Diyos.

Ano naman ang sabi ng Ama?

Ako ang una, at ako ang huli; at liban sa akin ay walang Dios. ... May Dios baga liban sa akin? oo, walang malaking Bato; ako'y walang nakikilalang iba. (is. 44: 6; 8 )

Sabi ng Ama, siya lang ang Diyos, wala nang iba, at wala siyang nakikilalang iba.  Kung ganon, hindi maaaring Diyos si Hesus.

[abbey]

Pumayag ka na sir sa ganong topic. 

Tutal, ang title ng thread, INC - Doctrines, Issues, Politics, etc.  Unang-una nga sa listahan ang topic na "doctrines."


Yes, ganon na nga ang paniniwala ng INC.

Para sa kanila, si Hesus ay taong-tao lang.  Yan ang unique sa doktrina nila.

Ang ibang relihiyon na hindi tinuturing ang sarili na Kristiyano (eg. - Islam), ang paniniwala ay si Hesus ay tao lang.  Pero sa mga relihiyon na tinuturing ang sarili na Kristiyano, INC lang ang alam ko na ang paniniwala ay si Kristo ay tao lang.

Example kung paano nila sinusuportahan ang kanilang paniniwala:

Datapuwa't ngayo'y pinagsisikapan ninyo akong patayin, na taong sa inyo'y nagsaysay ng katotohanan... (Jn. 8:40)

Ano ang sabi ng panginoong Hesus tungkol sa kanyang sarili?  Siya raw ay taong nagsaysay ng katotohanan. Hindi Diyos na nagsaysay ng katotohanan, kundi taong nagsaysay ng katotohanan.  Samakatuwid, ang panginoong Hesus mismo ang nagsabi na siya ay tao at hindi Diyos.

Ano naman ang sabi ng Ama?

Ako ang una, at ako ang huli; at liban sa akin ay walang Dios. ... May Dios baga liban sa akin? oo, walang malaking Bato; ako'y walang nakikilalang iba. (is. 44: 6; 8 )

Sabi ng Ama, siya lang ang Diyos, wala nang iba, at wala siyang nakikilalang iba.  Kung ganon, hindi maaaring Diyos si Hesus.

out of context nila kinukuha and verse upang patunayan na si Kristo ay tao lang at hindi dyos. Hindi din naman sinabi ni kristo sa verse na hindi sya dyos.

Kung talagang gusto mong ugatin ang kalagayan ni kristo bilang Dios o Tao sa simula ka dapat humanap ng ibidensya.

`Juan 1:14
Nang pasimula siya ang Verbo, at ang Verbo ay sumasa Dios, at ang Verbo ay Dios. 2Ito rin nang pasimula'y sumasa Dios. 3Ang lahat ng mga bagay ay ginawa sa pamamagitan niya; at alin man sa lahat ng ginawa ay hindi ginawa kung wala siya. 4Nasa kaniya ang buhay; at ang buhay ay siyang ilaw ng mga tao. 5At ang ilaw ay lumiliwanag sa kadiliman; at ito'y hindi napagunawa ng kadiliman.

14 At nagkatawang-tao ang Verbo, at tumahan sa gitna natin (at nakita namin ang kaniyang kaluwalhatian, kaluwalhatian gaya ng sa bugtong ng Ama), na puspos ng biyaya at katotohanan. 15Pinatotohanan siya ni Juan, at sumigaw, na nagsasabi, Ito yaong aking sinasabi, Ang pumaparitong nasa hulihan ko ay magiging una sa akin: sapagka't siya'y una sa akin.

At doon sa sinasabi nyan walng ibang Dyos liban sa Ama.. totoo naman talagang  isa lang ang Dios Ama..nasa old testment yang verese na yan so hindi pa bumaba si kristo sa lupa.Sa new testsment pinkikillala syang Dios Anak.. so walng complict doon may isang Dios na Ama at meron Dios na anak.


Sa Juan 10:30 patuloy..Sa verses mababasa na ang mga Judio na gustong bumato sa ating Panginoong Hesus ay katulad ng paniniwala ng INC na sya ay tao alang.

30Ako at ang Ama ay iisa.

31Nagsidampot uli ng mga bato ang mga Judio upang siya'y batuhin. 32Sinagot sila ni Jesus, Maraming mabubuting gawa na mula sa Ama ang ipinakita ko sa inyo; alin sa mga gawang yaon ang ibinabato ninyo sa akin? 33Sinagot siya ng mga Judio, Hindi dahil sa mabuting gawa ay binabato ka namin, kundi sa pamumusong; at sapagka't ikaw, bagaman ikaw ay tao, ay nagpapakunwari kang Dios. 34Sinagot sila ni Jesus, Hindi baga nasusulat sa inyong kautusan, Aking sinabi, Kayo'y mga dios? 35Kung tinawag niyang mga dios, yaong mga dinatnan ng salita ng Dios (at hindi mangyayaring sirain ang kasulatan), 36Sinasabi baga ninyo tungkol sa kaniya, na pinabanal ng Ama at sinugo sa sanglibutan, Ikaw ay namumusong; sapagka't sinasabi ko, Ako ang anak ng Dios? 37Kung hindi ko ginagawa ang mga gawa ng aking Ama, ay huwag ninyo akong sampalatayanan. 38Datapuwa't kung ginagawa ko, ang mga yaon kahit hindi kayo magsisampalataya sa akin, ay magsisampalataya kayo sa mga gawa; upang maalaman ninyo at mapagunawa na ang Ama ay nasa akin, at ako'y nasa Ama. 39Muling pinagsikapan nilang siya'y hulihin: at siya'y tumakas sa kanilang mga kamay.

[barrister]

I've heard it all before.  Matagal ko nang narinig ang mga sagot ng INC diyan.

John 1, may sagot sila diyan:

http://www.studyiglesianicristo.com/Verses/examine-trinity-john1v1j.html

John 10, may sagot din sila:

http://www.studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-55.html

Kung talagang gusto mong ugatin ang kalagayan ni kristo bilang Dios o Tao sa simula ka dapat humanap ng ibidensya.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, let me clarify: I believe Christ is God and the INC doctrine is false.

If you've read my old posts, I discussed how Christ was called "the only begotten God" (monogenes Theos) in the bible:

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,141525.msg2243453.html#msg2243453

Not just the only begotten son, but the only begotten God.

Hindi pa ako nakarinig ng paliwanag ng INC sa issue na yan.

[barrister]

Thanks for sharing this ---- and I quote,

Shifting loyalties

To be sure, the INC has built a formidable image that it can make or break the political career of those aspiring for public office. Its solid vote is a prized catch for anyone, and could possibly attract the undecided voters to go for the potential winners.

INC spokesman Edwil Zabala said bloc-voting is based on Biblical teachings. “One of the Bible teachings is unity. Unity in serving the Lord God. Unity in faith. Unity in rendering judgment. That's in the Bible. So when members of the Iglesia ni Cristo, for example, here in the Philippines, are asked to vote, we are being asked to render a judgment. So we have to put God, obedience to God first, before obedience to any man-made law. If God requires unity, if God requires that the body of Christ, the Church of Christ be one, we will uphold it no matter how others may react to it.”

Essentially, it seems to be a reverse of the adage, “The voice of the people is the voice of God.”

This "unity" in INC doctrine is based on the following verse, among others:

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Cor. 1:10)

If God's people should be united in the same mind and in the same judgment, then they should also be united in voting during elections.  That is why the INC votes as a block during elections --- to obey the commandment on unity.

The big problem is that the verse is talking about unity in spiritual matters, not worldly matters such as elections.  Dinampot yung sitas ukol sa sprituwal at nilapat sa materyal ... 

Here's a more detailed INC discussion:

http://www.studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-a122.html

[abbey]

I've heard it all before.  Matagal ko nang narinig ang mga sagot ng INC diyan.

John 1, may sagot sila diyan:

http://www.studyiglesianicristo.com/Verses/examine-trinity-john1v1j.html

John 10, may sagot din sila:

http://www.studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-55.html



Just to make sure we're on the same page, let me clarify: I believe Christ is God and the INC doctrine is false.

If you've read my old posts, I discussed how Christ was called "the only begotten God" (monogenes Theos) in the bible:

http://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php/topic,141525.msg2243453.html#msg2243453

Not just the only begotten son, but the only begotten God.

Hindi pa ako nakarinig ng paliwanag ng INC sa issue na yan.

Hi Barrister,

Glad to hear that we both believed that Jesus is God the the Only begotten Son of God.

They just trying to mix things up and to complicate the verses in the bible.

Hindi naman mahirap maintindihan na may Dios Ama at Dios Anak infact maraming Dios na tinutukoy sa biblia.When Jesus is pertaining to one God he is speaking of God the father and Jesus was presently here on earth.Yan ang ayaw nila tanggapin para bang ikinakahon nila ang Dios na hindi pwede dumami.
Sa nakaka unawa at gustong umunawa walang complict na May Isang Dios AMA at may Dios na Anak.

[abbey]

The big problem is that the verse is talking about unity in spiritual matters, not worldly matters such as elections.  Dinampot yung sitas ukol sa sprituwal at nilapat sa materyal ... 

You hit the nail on the head there Barrister.

[Nelson de Leon]

1 Cor 1, 10-17

A Church Divided Over Leaders
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

My initial impression is, Paul talks about the division of different church leaders due to different disciples, preachers or teachers. Paul is warning the corinth people not to give due importance to who the teacher was but to give importance to the teachings and not the teacher. Same goes with the teachers, that they should stand united in Christ.

[abbey]

1 Cor 1, 10-17

A Church Divided Over Leaders
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

My initial impression is, Paul talks about the division of different church leaders due to different disciples, preachers or teachers. Paul is warning the corinth people not to give due importance to who the teacher was but to give importance to the teachings and not the teacher. Same goes with the teachers, that they should stand united in Christ.

Correct...Then here come's the Ministers of the INC pertaining these verses as unity for voting a candidate.

[dpogs]

So, ang mga miyembro ba ay taga sunod ni Jesus? O mga taga sunod ni Manalo? O taga sunod ng Sanggunian?

[pao9307]

The way I see it,mas may bearing ang salita ni manalo o ng sanggunian,kesa sa salita ni Kristo mismo.

[dpogs]

The way I see it,mas may bearing ang salita ni manalo o ng sanggunian,kesa sa salita ni Kristo mismo.

parang ganoon na nga... 

OR and if it is true that INC members are not allowed to bring or read their Bible and only ministers are allowed, then tagasunod nga sila ni Manalo/Sangunian...

[nelcarol1994]

Pumayag ka na sir sa ganong topic. 

Tutal, ang title ng thread, INC - Doctrines, Issues, Politics, etc.  Unang-una nga sa listahan ang topic na "doctrines."


Yes, ganon na nga ang paniniwala ng INC.

Para sa kanila, si Hesus ay taong-tao lang.  Yan ang unique sa doktrina nila.

Ang ibang relihiyon na hindi tinuturing ang sarili na Kristiyano (eg. - Islam), ang paniniwala ay si Hesus ay tao lang.  Pero sa mga relihiyon na tinuturing ang sarili na Kristiyano, INC lang ang alam ko na ang paniniwala ay si Kristo ay tao lang.

Example kung paano nila sinusuportahan ang kanilang paniniwala:

Datapuwa't ngayo'y pinagsisikapan ninyo akong patayin, na taong sa inyo'y nagsaysay ng katotohanan... (Jn. 8:40)

Ano ang sabi ng panginoong Hesus tungkol sa kanyang sarili?  Siya raw ay taong nagsaysay ng katotohanan. Hindi Diyos na nagsaysay ng katotohanan, kundi taong nagsaysay ng katotohanan.  Samakatuwid, ang panginoong Hesus mismo ang nagsabi na siya ay tao at hindi Diyos.

Ano naman ang sabi ng Ama?

Ako ang una, at ako ang huli; at liban sa akin ay walang Dios. ... May Dios baga liban sa akin? oo, walang malaking Bato; ako'y walang nakikilalang iba. (is. 44: 6; 8 )

Sabi ng Ama, siya lang ang Diyos, wala nang iba, at wala siyang nakikilalang iba.  Kung ganon, hindi maaaring Diyos si Hesus.

Kaya sa mga paliwanag ng ministro ng INC at talagang taliwas ang mga interpretation nila at sa mga ilan2 verse lang kukuha at yon na ang ipangliliko sa kaisipan ng mga member nila. The worst part is yong sila lang daw maliligtas, maling katuruan na naman yan as in double destination katulad ng mga calvinist. 1st chapter of John says about Jesus as Lord and connect to Genesis 1st chapter which is the creation. Indeed God is only one BUT in three form; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

[nelcarol1994]

This "unity" in INC doctrine is based on the following verse, among others:

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Cor. 1:10)

If God's people should be united in the same mind and in the same judgment, then they should also be united in voting during elections.  That is why the INC votes as a block during elections --- to obey the commandment on unity.

The big problem is that the verse is talking about unity in spiritual matters, not worldly matters such as elections.  Dinampot yung sitas ukol sa sprituwal at nilapat sa materyal ... 

Here's a more detailed INC discussion:

http://www.studyiglesianicristo.com/Questions/interesting-questions-a122.html

Ginagawa nila ang "UNITY" voting ay para makapang gulang sa gobyerno, makakuha ng position, in short lobbyists sila!

[sirhc]

The big problem is that the verse is talking about unity in spiritual matters, not worldly matters such as elections.  Dinampot yung sitas ukol sa sprituwal at nilapat sa materyal ... 

You hit the nail on the head there Barrister.

Precisely. smh....

[tony]

So, ang mga miyembro ba ay taga sunod ni Jesus? O mga taga sunod ni Manalo? O taga sunod ng Sanggunian?

tagasunod sa mga materyal na mga bagay, hindi sa usaping spritual....

[tony]

Kaya sa mga paliwanag ng ministro ng INC at talagang taliwas ang mga interpretation nila at sa mga ilan2 verse lang kukuha at yon na ang ipangliliko sa kaisipan ng mga member nila. The worst part is yong sila lang daw maliligtas, maling katuruan na naman yan as in double destination katulad ng mga calvinist. 1st chapter of John says about Jesus as Lord and connect to Genesis 1st chapter which is the creation. Indeed God is only one BUT in three form; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

ganyan talaga lahat ng nakabasa me kanya kanyang interpretasyon....

[dpogs]

tagasunod sa mga materyal na mga bagay, hindi sa usaping spritual....

the reality is if hindi nga sila tagasunod ni Kristo... they can't differentiate what is spiritual and what is material/worldly things...

[tony]

the reality is if hindi nga sila tagasunod ni Kristo... they can't differentiate what is spiritual and what is material/worldly things...

and this is the sad scary part.....

[GIJoe]

http://news.abs-cbn.com/video/global-filipino/01/25/16/menorca-arrest-galvanizes-some-us-based-inc-members

[pTrader]

pero me nabalitaan ka na ba na sang obispo ng katoliko, ipina-pahuli sa nbi ang lider ng ibang religion?

wala pa naman, RC leaders deal more on the national issues eh..

[pTrader]

Did God send an angel to unify the church?

[tony]

^malamang hindi, kasi nag-usbungang parang mga kabuti ang mga religious groups...

[pTrader]

^malamang hindi, kasi nag-usbungang parang mga kabuti ang mga religious groups...

For INC, Felix is the Angel   (Rev 7:2).

[tony]

eh bakit nga me mga sigalot sa loob mismo ng INC? bakit kinailangang iharass si menorca?

madaling sabihin na angel si ka Felix, eh yung mga iniwan nya? hindi kaya demonyo?

[pTrader]

eh bakit nga me mga sigalot sa loob mismo ng INC? bakit kinailangang iharass si menorca?

unang una inde kaiilanman nag send si Jesus ng Angel to unify the Church.

Eph 4:11

11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsc and teachers,d 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,e to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

Walang Angel diyan na siyang inatasan para ma-unify ang Church.

Ang pamamalakad ng iglesia nila ay pinamumunuan ng angel na inde naman tinaawag ng Dios para ma-equip yung iglesia.

Kaya ganyan kaagulo sa INC.

[sirhc]

Kung Anghel din si Felix Manalo, what happened to his body after he died? Are angels governed by laws of the mortal realm? Sorry di ko pa napapanood yung movie. 

[pTrader]

pangalawa, walang sinomang sa mga nasa baba yung nag turo, nag equip kay Felix about the true and sound doctrine...

11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsc and teachers

at saan ni Felix pinagpupulot ang pira-pirasong doctrina na pinagsama sama niya?

at sino ba ang nagdisipulo kay Felix? wag mong sabihin ang Panginoong Hesukristo, dahil nag assign na siya ng mga apostoles, propeta, evangelista, pastor at guro to do the task of equipping church members.

[pTrader]

Kung Anghel din si Felix Manalo, what happened to his body after he died? Are angels governed by laws of the mortal realm? Sorry di ko pa napapanood yung movie. 

the point is inde nagtalaga ng angel or human messenger ang Panginoong Hesukristo para mga equip ng church, basa mo uli sa taas yung verse Eph 4:11 on wards.

[jerix]

Whatever you would like to believe about God or about Jesus, the only test is whether you believe or you will  not believe that you will go to heaven. if you believe, then there is no reason to hurt the feelings of others because the truth is the more you hurt them the more you depart from the correct way to heaven.